Discussion: Good Running Form?

I am slowly training myself to be a runner. I would like to learn about proper running form. Is there any good learning resource on the web for this sort of thing? I would think that something with videos of good runners would be the most helpful, but any information may help.

If the information is focused on running for orienteering, that would be the best, but suppose good running form for a 10k road race would also be good running for for a blue orienteering course, don't you think?

Thanks.

good running form for a 10k road race would also be good running for for a blue orienteering course, don't you think?

No, I wouldn't. Craig Virgin (a guy who should know as he won international events both on and off road at 10K) said that it takes the better part of a year to retune your stride for running cross country if you've been focusing on road and track. Having never been at that level, I find that I can usually get back to good woods form in about 6-8 weeks after my annual summer layoff, but I still notice a marked improvement during that time.

There are a few books out there that speak to cross country form and any good high school XC coach could immediately identify serious flaws. Beyond that, it's really just time running through the woods letting your body adapt. No substitute for practice.

I hadn't considered books on cross country running as a resource for orienteering, but I will from now on.

I found it really helpful to get a video of myself running, because I didn't realise how bad my form was (I was leaning back a lot). Then I could work out what I needed to fix.

Leaning back is better than leaning forward! I'm not sure that a cross country guide would be any help either, as most cross country is held on pretty flat, runnable tracks. Essentially your foot placement and response is predictable; whereas in orienteering its often not. A Danish elite orienteer I knew (Gert Nielsen) used to train by running in terrain at night; essentially his feet would have to react to whatever they hit. I think that's pretty extreme, but I would certainly agree that road running in particular would not be helpful in developing good orienteering form.

Leaning back is better than leaning forward!

There are a few running gurus out there on the web that recommend leaning forward. (Chi Running, Dr. Romanov) Why don't you recommend leaning forward?

I have been training in some prairie terrain. In the tall grass, you really can't predict when your foot will hit the ground and at what angle. I run lower, with more flex in my knees so that I can react to bad foot placements. Somewhat like running in the dark, I suppose.

Eric is right. It takes a while to go from running road or track races to running cross country and orienteering. I think there is about as big a jump going from running on the road to XC as there is from running XC and going to orienteering running. Here are some ways I think orienteering running is different:

* Stride is shorter for balance. One needs to be prepared for the unexpected toe catching a branch and for lateral movement. The stride is shorter for hill climbing and unstable footing too.
* Knee lift is higher with less back kick (your foot doesn't come up toward your butt as much). This gets you over deadfall and low vegetation.
* Quads are relied upon more for climbing steeper hills. They get bigger.
* Pace is slower so that you can read/plan and negotiate the terrain (think of the steeple chase vs. a 10K on the track)
* Run a little less on your toes.
* Arms are used for balance more and sometimes to pull/push off branches.
* Ducking your head puts more work on one's torso.

Depending on the vegetation and how tall you are, the ducking bit may be quite significant. I did a lot of training in light green vegetation last year (improving that area was one of my season goals). I found that much of my improvement came from learning to run almost full speed while bent at the waist. Doing this puts a lot more strain on your quads, glutes and lower back. Supplementing with some abdominal exercises to keep things balanced is a good idea.

To the point about running terrain at night - there's nothing extreme about it. It's actually pretty common training among serious orienteers. I do about 60 hours a year in the terrain at night - about half of that is "full speed" training as opposed to ROGAINE/Adventure Race pace.

I don't know that it works running form any more than training during the day. You can't be reading the map and following the terrain if you're looking at where every footplant is going to go. Day or night, you have to learn to get the weight off really quickly when a footplant isn't right. This becomes pretty much automatic after a few hundred hours of terrain training (in real terrain - not grass/trails).

Leaning back means your hips are forward, the glutes are working; that is better than "running almost full speed while bent at the waist". I'm not talking about leaning way back - just so that there is the proper "lordosis" curve in the small of your back.

My HR goes up significantly when I am repeatedly ducking under branches. Must be the extra torso work that is happening.

Day or night, you have to learn to get the weight off really quickly when a footplant isn't right. This becomes pretty much automatic after a few hundred hours of terrain training (in real terrain - not grass/trails).

I agree. The way how my feet adjust to terrain when I am running full speed kind of amazes me at times even I know it is me who does the running. It is not something you cannot learn by watching videos, books, etc. It is something you got to do yourself over the time and build up your terrain running skills gradually.

Also I agree that there is difference between road running and XC running and there is difference between XC running and running style required for orienteering.

Unless you plan to participate in Olympics in track-and-field events I would not worry too much if you have ?proper? running technique as long as it gets you through the woods fast enough and you are comfortable with your running. I used to think that only certain running techniques are the best but I have seen runners with unorthodox running techniques leaving me in dust. Would certain adjustments in running techniques would make you faster runner? Maybe. But I would advise to force yourself to do something that is not natural to your fitness level, physique, strength.

Best thing you can do is do a lot of terrain training and your body will find your own unique way to move fast.

Leaning back means your hips are forward, the glutes are working; that is better than "running almost full speed while bent at the waist".

Perhaps I wasn't clear. I'm not advocating running while leaning forward if you can adopt a proper upright stance. But sometimes you can't. Unless you're advocating limbo maneuvers, you'll have to bend forward for a few strides to duck under things. If you can do that without breaking form, it gains you maybe a second or two. Do that 100 times in a race and you've saved several minutes.

Running form is just one of many factors for getting better. Gil brings up a good point that it's not something to worry about too much until you reach certain levels of ability. For most people being able to navigate cleanly will save you a lot more time orienteering than will having good running form for orienteering. Knowing which route is efficient for you is another. If you aren't training enough, or with the correct physical workouts, running form is not going to outweigh it--it'll just help you get the most out of what you've got.

Having good running form will help prevent (but not insure) you from getting injured. When racing (orienteering) against other people with similar technical and physical abilities, it'll help you compete against them by conserving energy with less wasted movement and less wear and tear. Forcing youself to change form is difficult and should be done with care. As fast road runners make the transition from good to better, one common thing they do is learn to run on the balls of their feet. World class marathoners complete whole races without landing on their heels (the heel comes down after landing on the ball of the foot while it's already moving backward). If you try to make that transition too fast as a seasoned runner or too soon as a beginning runner, you'll end up with shin, achilles or knee problems.

Using good form for a specific running event is an optimization. Eric's comment about what Craig Virgin said indicate an optimization for an event. You'll trade-off road racing ability if you work toward optimizing your body for orienteering or XC. Road racing is very repetitive in that you're generally using the same muscle groups over and over again at a high turnover. In road racing you don't need the bulk of the extra muscles needed for XC or orienteering. It takes time to switch from one to another in a way that is optimized.

One more thing about changing form. It's easier to learn to do it right early on, than it is to change it later. Bad habits can be corrected but it takes concentration that can be best used elsewhere (this goes for all kinds of running since the mind controls the body--well mostly...). When you race, don't focus on changing form so much unless it's a really long race. Focus on it when training so that it will eventually come without thinking about it.

It's easier to learn to do it right early on, than it is to change it later.

One more reason supporting changing form early on: If you have already learned to run with some running form (and basically everyone has: everyone knows how to run), the more you train using this form, the harder it will get to change it. Changing it, changes the muscles used and the way they are loaded. So even if you change your form to be biomechanically correct and efficient, you will be using your quads, glutes and calves in slightly different way that they are accustomed to.

It will take some time for your muscles to adjust to the changes in your running form and for you to feel the benefit of your improved running style.

Gil brings up a good point that it's not something to worry about too much until you reach certain levels of ability.

I'm not sure that was Gil's point, but I'll let him speak to that. At any rate, I disagree with it as stated above. I think one of the most common mistakes made by beginners is getting onto the advanced courses too soon and having their terrain speed drop to near zero. A much better plan is to stay on a course where you can navigate while running hard and learn to do that well.

It's relatively easy to get to around 15:00/K on advanced courses, but many people never progress beyond that because every time they push the pace, they make huge errors. On the other hand, you should be able to do a yellow course at close to full speed within your first few outings. Once you have mastered the skills of staying in contact with the map while running through the terrain at speed, you can start increasing the technical difficultly. I think this is a much faster road (or should I say, "off road") to proficiency.

I second all of what Eric said. I think my biggest goof in the my orienteering learning experience was not learning how to run the easier courses fast before moving up to the advanced ones.

I disagree (sort of). There's value in both doing a more difficult course than you can easily handle, and in running a course that is easier and faster than usual. Each stresses and improves different skills I find.

This is one reason that I like the current Sprint, Middle and Long formats...each emphasizes different skills (properly set), creating a different challenge.

One fun way to improve your map reading at high speed, and practice your cleanness, efficiency and consistency in navigation, is Sprints. Middles throw harder navigation at you. Longs throw route choice, variety and endurance challenges at you. I think that one could do worse than to do a bit of all three formats, and train other skills in isolation as well (relo, running form, compass work, hills, contour only, etc.)

one could do worse than to do a bit of all three formats

One could do much worse and most do. I think I was greatly aided in my "early" development (I was 33 when I started orienteering) by the fact that in St. Louis we've always had summer meets in the urban parks - even before sprints were the rage. Since those were meets that I actually had a chance of winning, I worked pretty hard on learning to read the map while running hard. I agree that you shouldn't just blow off honing navigation skills, just that there's no reason to wait until you're proficient at nav to work on your speed.

I was referencing to pure running technique in terrain, not per say orienteering + running ability on advanced courses.

However reading comments I would have to agree with the advice given ? if you are beginner then you shall graduate from white, to yellow, to orange, to green, to red, to blue without rushing it from both perspectives ? running and orienteering skills.

Learn how to smoke through orange course before trying green. Sure you could figure out how to finish blue course if you have understanding of maps. However you got to be able to not just finish the course to succeed but you got to be able to do it while running relatively fast, navigating error-free, choosing most optimal route. It?s like in school ? unless you are genius (sorry to disappoint you all but I am not) ? they don?t teach you college math in elementary school.

Also it makes sense to graduate gradually from easier courses to more complex in terms of adapting to terrain running gradually. If you are newbie to off-road running it might not be good idea to jump right into blue courses. Get your legs trained to run trails on white course. Then switch over to Yellow courses to get some exposure to terrain running. Once your legs can handle that ? add more terrain running options by moving up to Orange and within ten years (or so) you will find yourself running blue courses without any problems.

Having seen Eoin run in the forest many times, I can assure you that the terminology is confusing... Eoin looks like any other runner but has a longer stride and, if anything, leans forward from the hips a little more than normal. Not bent at the waist, but a lean!

Todd originally said he is new to running, not just orienteering. I think learning and having good running form is important. I have been beaten by runners with poor form (actually when I was a track runner, I don't think I ever was), but certainly there are other factors, and as the race gets longer form has less of a value. Good form will expend les energy for a given speed, so it will pay off in any race, but is most useful in races of say, less than20 minutes.
But a good form for one type of racing may not be good for another. I do think that good TRACk racing form translates pretty well to woods running, especially in clean woods. Good track racers have good knee lift and high lower leg lift, both useful for clearing the junk on the ground. Long strides, which a track racer has, is best reined in a bit in the woods as you cannot depend on the ground always being in the same spot
So video your running form and emulate great runners (Nadim would be one), then you will at least be fast. And training to run fast is going to be useful in the woods, it is really the only way to increase your cardiovascular systems so you can run hard in the woods.
After you are fit, then running in the woods will adapt your muscles and reflexes to woods running.

as the race gets longer form has less of a value

Coach, wouldn't the efficiency gain of good form accumulate over a longer race, making it as least as useful for longer races? I expect that with increased efficiency you would save some % of your race time regardless of race distance.

Thanks everyone, this has been an interesting discussion. I am taking much away from here especially these few main points:

No one suggested any web resources for orienteering running form. So I am assuming that there just are not many out there.

I will try to take some video of myself running and analyze so that I actually know what quirks I am blessed with.

Running form is not as important as navigation is to improving at orienteering.

The best thing to do to improve running is to train heavily off trail because running there is very different from running anywhere else.

And lastly, I will run while wearing a blindfold in order to train my body to react when it meets obstacles in the forest.

Probably best to do the blindfolded running in forested terrain. Please be sure to video the blindfolded running. Then post it here..... ;-)

Probably pretty much anything you do blindfolded could be taped and viewed for amusement...

anyway, being a good runner never was a harm to orienteering.

I began orienteering late - but with a great background outdoors and in the woods. Navigating and optimizing my route choice for my physical abilities has been my forte. (breakdown at Surebridge not withstanding;-)

Physical conditioning has been modest, but growing over the last two years. (except for a current setback with a broken shoulder - from biking, not Orienteering...)

Conditioning and running form are important - but not something to get hung up on. I realized I was overstriding and took efforts to try and help that. Nice factor this year has been to run off pavement...

My new nugget for this discussion - whatever your style, get to know (and stay current) with your stride length. I gave myself a good delay in a recent event when I overran a course.

That is, I "knew" how far I wanted to go down a trail, and I "knew" how many strides I expected to be at when I was there, and I "knew" there should be a trail when I wanted to cut off from a road.

Except I was only at half my count when I reached the right spot... Sure, I hesitated, and considered, but I went on anyway.

It seems my conditioning and strength was such that I couldn't believe I had covered the distance already... (mind you - it's a problem I'd rather have than the opposite;-)

One for the lesson book.

No one suggested any web resources for orienteering running form. So I am assuming that there just are not many out there.

Well, there's always Peak Performance

We've discussed this subject on various training logs, but I guess it has never appeared in open Discussion.

As for my comment on efficiency being less useful in long runs.
I think good running form mostly affects top speed. I don't know any really fast runners with poor form. This only means that if they slow a bit, they may burn a few less calories, but as we slow down, there are many other factors which will determine how fast and far you can go.
I can run with my daughters well over 2 or 3 hours, but in a mile race they easily blow me away, they are about 14% faster, in a 75 minute race about 7% faster. Their top speed is just so much higher than mine (not due to running form in this case).

Fast runners with, er, unusual form? What about Carsten?

Very fast over the 10 000m, as well as in the forest. And pretty unconventional form, by any standard.

My favorite form quote was from the awkward looking, but mighty fast, Michael Johnson after he crushed the world record in the 400m.

Reporter: How fast would you be if you were able to run with a more conventional form?

Johnson: About as fast as those guys I just beat.

This is my strong personal believe that I am not sure has any scientific backing. However...

I strongly believe that more you run you will develop your own proper running form. It might look conventional or it might look different from others but it is going to be running form custom designed for your physical characteristics. For example - I am 6'3" and I wear size 12 running shoes. Someone might height but with, let's say, 11 1/2 shoe size will have different running form.

I share Gil's belief to a degree, perhaps even for the majority of people, but I don't think this principle is universal. Some people have to work harder than others to "feel" their optimal form, and some feedback from a camera or trusted bystander can be very useful. I think there ample evidence (watch any large race) that there are plenty of "forms" that are clearly terrible (inefficient and injury producing). Justifying everything as "individualism" is putting one's head in the sand. Foot size, body type and fast/slow twitch ratio can only justify so much. For people with poor self awareness, I believe volume and time can also serve to engrain very poor habits.

My core non scientific belief is that some fast running is a key to improving and maintaining form. This conviction is closely tied to the observation that an individual's form always(~90%?) improves with a faster pace.

To address running form, I am not suggesting gut busting threshold+ running. This has its place for other reasons. Nor am I suggesting running faster than past training/fitness will support. The basic suggestion is to gradually incorporate "striders" into the warm down routine, then build on that.

For those unfamiliar with this term, I'll try to define "striders" as short, low resistance intervals, similar to "spinning" on a bike. Start slow and accelerate comfortably up the the fastest rpm that is comfortable and appropriate to one's background, then slow down smoothly. Repeat as appropriate, say 2 -10(?) times, 40- 200(?) meters. This should feel easy. If not, you are probably pushing too hard.

The point is to work on range of motion, quickness, posture and smoothness, and to do this when the body is most warmed up. There is also significant warm down relevance to this routine, but that is another topic.

It seems like there are a lot of extremely good runner's out there that think that you should just run with the form the comes "naturally". While there are many times in life when going with the flow is the best thing to do, I would think that running is such a mechanical operation, that there must be many efficiencies to be gained by thinking about the mechanics of the process and deliberately making style changes.

As for EricW's idea, I think Eric's idea is a good one. I have found that whenever I try to sustain faster running with good form. My heart rate just goes to high to keep it up for long. This "striders" technique may allow me to do some faster training and feel out my proper form while not red lining my HR.

My core non scientific belief is that some fast running is a key to improving and maintaining form. This conviction is closely tied to the observation that an individual's form always(~90%?) improves with a faster pace.

I share the same believe. You can get away with inefficient running form when running slow speeds since you are running at 60% of your capability and "weird" technique will still get the job done. However when you make an effort to run as fast as you can - inefficiency is magnified and even without too much thinking about it - your body tries to find more efficient ways to run.

Also I would recommend doing running warm-up exercises that ant semi-serious running coach could show - site-step, crossing side-step, jumps, running backwards, high-step, butt-kicks, etc. If you don't know proper technique of these exercises I strongly recommend contacting someone who will show proper technique for them.

I would think that running is such a mechanical operation, that there must be many efficiencies to be gained by thinking about the mechanics of the process and deliberately making style changes.

That's exactly what your brain is doing when you run. Just because it's not conscious doesn't mean some serious neural activity isn't taking place. I'd also say, both from my experience as an athlete and from programming neural nets, that the process works best when the system is run under duress because the results of different pathways are more obvious. I think this is a big part of why striders and sprint training are so effective in cleaning up form.

That said, I'll also say that my experience in both areas is that starting by narrowing the domain of the pathways (read, getting some decent coaching) early results in much faster convergence on a optimal solution, and the solution reached is much more likely to be globally optimal (that is, you don't get stuck in a bad habit that requires you to take a step backwards in performance to break).

I found this article. Same online magazine explains hot to properly do this required skill. I almost overlooked this article explaining priorities.

Good articles, Gil. I may have been able to get by without the second one, but the first and the third seem very worthwhile!!

Form good, up hill like dik-dik, very fast, four feet go quik! Form bad mebbe lion gonna eat yu up breakfast, very fast. Yu wanem one shell kava mebbe?