Discussion: Youth O Leagues
in: Orienteering; General
Apr 15, 2014 8:28 PM
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In August at the AGM, there will be a session on starting/growing Youth O Leagues (as distinct from a single youth meet, a youth training camp, or occasional youth at a regular meet). While these other youth efforts and activities are important half-steps toward a youth league, and may even dovetail with a league itself, the challenges faced are different.
I'm familiar with WIOL in COC, but some of the more applicable challenges/lessons/tips may come from smaller leagues at other clubs. I know the contacts for TROL and COOL, but I'm less familiar with others. Who leads MOJO and CSOL? Are there others not on this list?
And if you have considered starting a youth league but have not done so...what are the biggest obstacles in your way? I'd love to see this session become a roundtable where we can raise and discuss top issues from different perspectives, helping make youth leagues more accessible to more clubs...
Bob
I'm familiar with WIOL in COC, but some of the more applicable challenges/lessons/tips may come from smaller leagues at other clubs. I know the contacts for TROL and COOL, but I'm less familiar with others. Who leads MOJO and CSOL? Are there others not on this list?
And if you have considered starting a youth league but have not done so...what are the biggest obstacles in your way? I'd love to see this session become a roundtable where we can raise and discuss top issues from different perspectives, helping make youth leagues more accessible to more clubs...
Bob
Apr 15, 2014 8:38 PM
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I think you mean that session will be held at the OUSA Convention, which is Aug. 8 at the US Olympic Training center in Colorado Springs. You can see more information about the convention at the US Classic Champs website.
If I'm wrong, though, I'll delete this message.
If I'm wrong, though, I'll delete this message.
Apr 16, 2014 2:14 PM
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Trying, trying. But just don't have the schools yet interested. I backed off starting a league and am focusing now on programs in schools first. If anyone has letters they wrote to schools about getting orienteering into their schools, and were successful, would be great if you could share some.
Once I have a core of kids in a few schools, I am going to attempt again looking into a league.
Also, at the moment our club has fewer meets than other clubs with leagues, and there are also no other clubs near to us to include other clubs' meets as counting towards a league. Still thinking about what could be done there. Our club is already stretched thin what volunteers are concerned, so not sure yet how to approach the issue of creating a few more scaled-down (White-Orange) meets not too far out of the Twin Cities, actually preferably on Sprint maps, within the cities, easier to get to.
The problem in this sport, especially where there is not yet a larger "school following", is that it the car-pooling options are fewer, and also the parent-viewing an helping crowd, as is very common in other sports, is also limited (actually extremely limited). Would love to hear from the other clubs how kids get to their league meets.
@Bobfo what do you mean by "this session become a roundtable"? Do you mean the AGM session or this AP thread? I do hope you mean the latter, as I would think this could be a great learning way for those of us who don't have a league yet, and I hope those with leagues get to add to their bag of tricks, too.
Once I have a core of kids in a few schools, I am going to attempt again looking into a league.
Also, at the moment our club has fewer meets than other clubs with leagues, and there are also no other clubs near to us to include other clubs' meets as counting towards a league. Still thinking about what could be done there. Our club is already stretched thin what volunteers are concerned, so not sure yet how to approach the issue of creating a few more scaled-down (White-Orange) meets not too far out of the Twin Cities, actually preferably on Sprint maps, within the cities, easier to get to.
The problem in this sport, especially where there is not yet a larger "school following", is that it the car-pooling options are fewer, and also the parent-viewing an helping crowd, as is very common in other sports, is also limited (actually extremely limited). Would love to hear from the other clubs how kids get to their league meets.
@Bobfo what do you mean by "this session become a roundtable"? Do you mean the AGM session or this AP thread? I do hope you mean the latter, as I would think this could be a great learning way for those of us who don't have a league yet, and I hope those with leagues get to add to their bag of tricks, too.
Apr 16, 2014 5:32 PM
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Yes, @kissy this is about the OUSA convention, thanks. Correct URL is: http://2014.rmoc.org/ (no www).
@andreais, my "roundtable" goal for this topic was to start a useful discussion, both on Attackpoint and at the US Classic Champs, about the challenges and strategies of getting more youth into orienteering. Average age in our sport keeps going up, with little youth momentum to refresh it. That makes the youth ramp-up topic among the most important facing all our clubs today. So let's put our minds together and do something about it...
I suspect (but don't know for sure yet) that there are several common obstacles facing clubs in the youth topic area:
- First contact. How to get ANY youth involved?
- Schools. What part, if any, do schools play in a league?
- Focus. If we have limited resources, where do we focus first?
- Volunteers. Can we commit to anything extra with a skeleton crew?
- Technology/process. How to calculate/publish team scores in a timely way?
- Succession planning. How do we make one leader's success carry on?
- Others. Maybe I've missed the biggest obstacle of all...
Ideally, we could have several league directors at the session in Colorado in early August, able to take the same questions from the audience and offer different perspectives. Nobody has all the answers, so a diversity of response is powerful.
Bob
@andreais, my "roundtable" goal for this topic was to start a useful discussion, both on Attackpoint and at the US Classic Champs, about the challenges and strategies of getting more youth into orienteering. Average age in our sport keeps going up, with little youth momentum to refresh it. That makes the youth ramp-up topic among the most important facing all our clubs today. So let's put our minds together and do something about it...
I suspect (but don't know for sure yet) that there are several common obstacles facing clubs in the youth topic area:
- First contact. How to get ANY youth involved?
- Schools. What part, if any, do schools play in a league?
- Focus. If we have limited resources, where do we focus first?
- Volunteers. Can we commit to anything extra with a skeleton crew?
- Technology/process. How to calculate/publish team scores in a timely way?
- Succession planning. How do we make one leader's success carry on?
- Others. Maybe I've missed the biggest obstacle of all...
Ideally, we could have several league directors at the session in Colorado in early August, able to take the same questions from the audience and offer different perspectives. Nobody has all the answers, so a diversity of response is powerful.
Bob
Apr 16, 2014 6:42 PM
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I am interested in this topic because I would like to get a league going in this area. I won't be going to the convention though (doubtful anyway), so am interested in hearing what folks post here.
My general strategy is to approach one or two high schools and try and convince them to make orienteering a part of their phys-ed program or life sports class. The thinking being to teach the teachers so that they can make O' a part of their classes. Each year approach one or two more schools with the hope that in a few years, there will be enough kids that know the basics that a few events for the high school kids could be organized.
The biggest problem I see is MAPS;
I expect others have tried this approach (or something similar), so wondering what they think and if it was successful.
My general strategy is to approach one or two high schools and try and convince them to make orienteering a part of their phys-ed program or life sports class. The thinking being to teach the teachers so that they can make O' a part of their classes. Each year approach one or two more schools with the hope that in a few years, there will be enough kids that know the basics that a few events for the high school kids could be organized.
The biggest problem I see is MAPS;
I expect others have tried this approach (or something similar), so wondering what they think and if it was successful.
Apr 17, 2014 4:44 PM
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At one point in WIOL, we focused on high schools, especially x-country teams, thinking that this would somehow fit in and attract high-level athletes. We even scheduled our league season between fall x-country and spring track.
The timing was useful, but the results were spotty. In the best cases, x-country coaches embraced the idea of cross-over training without quite getting orienteering, and in the worst cases they push back at anything that might cause off-season ankle injuries. Our biggest consistent advocates at the high school level are JROTC units, who use it as a snap-in pre-planned function---lots of required attendance, limited focus, some cheating, and few standout students who stick with it year-round or go to higher levels.
The sweet spot, in our experience, is middle schools, which don't have built-in, pre-set programs with athletic directors. There is more flexibility, the kids haven't yet defined themselves by social groups, and they are young enough to start on easier courses and work up over time. They get good--3 of our last 4 JWOC girls started in middle school. And they come with parents...AKA volunteers.
For maps, we simply used the routine club maps, with a heavy emphasis on local access, because nobody wanted to drive an hour. As the meets got bigger, we needed to go further to find parks that could accept 100, 200, then 300 attendees. Schools routinely drive 90 minutes now, and it's a strain on some, but the "best 4 of 7" scoring model allows them to drop inconvenient meets without penalty.
An example that puts these together:
A couple of years ago, we were approached by a middle school PE teacher in a low-income area who wanted a capstone to an orienteering unit for several classes. We found the closest venue--still 45 mins away--and ran 200+ kids through a short variant of a yellow course. They had a blast, and the teacher wanted do more, but the funds didn't exist for the trek to more distant meets. So no league for them. But with other middle schools/elementaries coming on board in that area, we are now working to identify and map venues at that end of our range...if not for a league meet, then at least for local practice before they make the commitment.
The timing was useful, but the results were spotty. In the best cases, x-country coaches embraced the idea of cross-over training without quite getting orienteering, and in the worst cases they push back at anything that might cause off-season ankle injuries. Our biggest consistent advocates at the high school level are JROTC units, who use it as a snap-in pre-planned function---lots of required attendance, limited focus, some cheating, and few standout students who stick with it year-round or go to higher levels.
The sweet spot, in our experience, is middle schools, which don't have built-in, pre-set programs with athletic directors. There is more flexibility, the kids haven't yet defined themselves by social groups, and they are young enough to start on easier courses and work up over time. They get good--3 of our last 4 JWOC girls started in middle school. And they come with parents...AKA volunteers.
For maps, we simply used the routine club maps, with a heavy emphasis on local access, because nobody wanted to drive an hour. As the meets got bigger, we needed to go further to find parks that could accept 100, 200, then 300 attendees. Schools routinely drive 90 minutes now, and it's a strain on some, but the "best 4 of 7" scoring model allows them to drop inconvenient meets without penalty.
An example that puts these together:
A couple of years ago, we were approached by a middle school PE teacher in a low-income area who wanted a capstone to an orienteering unit for several classes. We found the closest venue--still 45 mins away--and ran 200+ kids through a short variant of a yellow course. They had a blast, and the teacher wanted do more, but the funds didn't exist for the trek to more distant meets. So no league for them. But with other middle schools/elementaries coming on board in that area, we are now working to identify and map venues at that end of our range...if not for a league meet, then at least for local practice before they make the commitment.
Apr 17, 2014 5:00 PM
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@andreais, I just reread your message about trying to get O in schools before starting a league. This has been an on/off emphasis of USOF, then OUSA, and even COC over the years, but it always runs into the same reality. Schools are increasingly tasked with specific standards and told what to teach; unless those learning standards are rewritten to include orienteering (and believe me, you don't want to commit part of your life to THOSE meetings), this is a losing battle. At best, you'll get an occasional unit in an occasional PE class.
That said, there is value in having a predesigned, drop-in orienteering unit at the middle school level for teachers who are looking for something different. I'm not sure we have that yet, but we should. I'll look into it.
If I were starting a league again from scratch, I think I would target these middle school PE teachers with messages about the family-friendly nature of these meets, give them coupons to try a meet, and turn them into O' advocates in their parental messages. Then the league can start with active families without ever having to change what is taught in a public school classroom.
That said, there is value in having a predesigned, drop-in orienteering unit at the middle school level for teachers who are looking for something different. I'm not sure we have that yet, but we should. I'll look into it.
If I were starting a league again from scratch, I think I would target these middle school PE teachers with messages about the family-friendly nature of these meets, give them coupons to try a meet, and turn them into O' advocates in their parental messages. Then the league can start with active families without ever having to change what is taught in a public school classroom.
Apr 17, 2014 5:35 PM
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Hi Bob,
I think your point about middle-school age being a sweet-spot, where the kids come with parental volunteers is a big deal.
Do you forsee a point coming, where parental volunteers from WIOL teams can become the primary logistical organizers of a meet, and COC volunteers can sit back and maybe provide technical support?
Also, is there any templete for what WIOL teams do outside of the major leage events? Are there suggested training activities, team social events, etc? Has WIOL found any strategies for promoting the cohesiveness of the school teams that participate?
I think your point about middle-school age being a sweet-spot, where the kids come with parental volunteers is a big deal.
Do you forsee a point coming, where parental volunteers from WIOL teams can become the primary logistical organizers of a meet, and COC volunteers can sit back and maybe provide technical support?
Also, is there any templete for what WIOL teams do outside of the major leage events? Are there suggested training activities, team social events, etc? Has WIOL found any strategies for promoting the cohesiveness of the school teams that participate?
Apr 17, 2014 11:52 PM
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@bobfo
When you say middle school, do you mean 6,7&8 grade? or 7,8 &9? or something different?
When you say middle school, do you mean 6,7&8 grade? or 7,8 &9? or something different?
Apr 18, 2014 10:01 PM
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@carlch, we have had middle schools that were 7,8,9, and 6,7,8, and even 6,7,8,9. Functionally, the distinction was minimal--as is evidenced by some large 9th graders at Interschlastics sometimes sharing the podium with some very small 7th or 8th graders. The main issue is that the kids have generally not slotted themselves into various sports (or non-sports) cliques and teams that consume all their time.
@blegg, your line of questioning got me thinking about what we can do better...
In a 4-month period, we run 8 meets of 350 or larger (one last season topped 425). These are only local meets, but from a logistical perspective, it's like 8-back-to-back A meets in the rain. And as we all know, nobody in charge ever sits back and just supports an A meet.
What we do focus on, however, is having schools provide the logistical support for their own teams, including recruitment, coaching, transportation, and some contribution back to the public good--like setting up/tearing down tents without breaking them (Ha!). In return, they expect us to provide pre-season training, venues, courses, equipment, oversight, registration, scoring, results, awards, and elite athlete mentoring. So it's major COC lifting for the foreseeable future. But the next WIOL Director running the show will likely be another WIOL parent volunteer.
We are also constantly tweaking WIOL, gradually moving to a set of 16 venues on an alternate year schedule so venue selection is a no-brainer. We introduced online registration + volunteer sign-up so the front-line volunteer roles are automatically filled. We're automating scoring/results posting even more. And we're separating the start tents next year to reduce WIOL/public crowd impact on one another.
The second question is right on the money. We have a WIOL navigation training guide...and that's it for post-season guidance. No templates, training events, or team social events outside of the season. And that's a major hole that exists because the WIOL Director is in mental recovery mode by March. But we now have a year-round training coordinator, which could improve the post-season social side once that gets going. In the meantime, it's quite possible that someone else has solved this better than we have...
@blegg, your line of questioning got me thinking about what we can do better...
In a 4-month period, we run 8 meets of 350 or larger (one last season topped 425). These are only local meets, but from a logistical perspective, it's like 8-back-to-back A meets in the rain. And as we all know, nobody in charge ever sits back and just supports an A meet.
What we do focus on, however, is having schools provide the logistical support for their own teams, including recruitment, coaching, transportation, and some contribution back to the public good--like setting up/tearing down tents without breaking them (Ha!). In return, they expect us to provide pre-season training, venues, courses, equipment, oversight, registration, scoring, results, awards, and elite athlete mentoring. So it's major COC lifting for the foreseeable future. But the next WIOL Director running the show will likely be another WIOL parent volunteer.
We are also constantly tweaking WIOL, gradually moving to a set of 16 venues on an alternate year schedule so venue selection is a no-brainer. We introduced online registration + volunteer sign-up so the front-line volunteer roles are automatically filled. We're automating scoring/results posting even more. And we're separating the start tents next year to reduce WIOL/public crowd impact on one another.
The second question is right on the money. We have a WIOL navigation training guide...and that's it for post-season guidance. No templates, training events, or team social events outside of the season. And that's a major hole that exists because the WIOL Director is in mental recovery mode by March. But we now have a year-round training coordinator, which could improve the post-season social side once that gets going. In the meantime, it's quite possible that someone else has solved this better than we have...
Apr 18, 2014 11:50 PM
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I am wondering about the leagues - are all WIOL events full blown club events, too, or are some events league only?
Apr 19, 2014 12:03 AM
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@andreais
They always have been "regular" club events, "Class C Meets" if that terminology is preferred. When we started the league, we just added a few more events to our pre-existing schedule, designated a couple of courses the "school league courses", and kept score across the season. As Bob pointed out earlier, we intentionally set our season to not conflict with either the fall cross country or spring track seasons - which is why we orienteer, outdoors, in Seattle, in the winter (builds character and an immunity to pneumonia). An incidental upside to our chosen season is the openness of the forest without summer foliage.
In recent years we have had about 180-200 school league starts at each of our 8 league meets and as many as 200 public starts - most of these meets are bigger than any A meet the club has ever hosted, including US championships. A significant portion of the public starts are in a separate "Winter Series" that runs in parallel with the school league - we have a few families where the parents compete in the Winter Series while the kids compete in the school league.
About a third (~1400-1600) of our annual starts are juniors participating in WIOL.
We are very grateful for the advent of electronic timing ...
They always have been "regular" club events, "Class C Meets" if that terminology is preferred. When we started the league, we just added a few more events to our pre-existing schedule, designated a couple of courses the "school league courses", and kept score across the season. As Bob pointed out earlier, we intentionally set our season to not conflict with either the fall cross country or spring track seasons - which is why we orienteer, outdoors, in Seattle, in the winter (builds character and an immunity to pneumonia). An incidental upside to our chosen season is the openness of the forest without summer foliage.
In recent years we have had about 180-200 school league starts at each of our 8 league meets and as many as 200 public starts - most of these meets are bigger than any A meet the club has ever hosted, including US championships. A significant portion of the public starts are in a separate "Winter Series" that runs in parallel with the school league - we have a few families where the parents compete in the Winter Series while the kids compete in the school league.
About a third (~1400-1600) of our annual starts are juniors participating in WIOL.
We are very grateful for the advent of electronic timing ...
Apr 19, 2014 12:12 AM
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To emphasize an implicit point: it is not necessary to put on special school league events if suitable courses can be offered as part of a club's regular meet schedule. What makes a "league" in this sense is having (making) something (competitive classes) that are "just for the kids" and are celebrated as such.
Apr 19, 2014 1:42 AM
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Andrea, you mention that currently your club doesn't hold that many meets. Before OCIN started TROL, we were doing 1 or 2 meets each month during the TROL season. With TROL, we started doing meets almost every weekend, leaving a gap for nearby A meets or the couple Miami Valley club meets that were suitable to double as TROL meets. In general, per meet attendance has increased, not just the kids, but in some cases their family members too. And I think more OCIN members have become "regulars" because they can count on an event almost every weekend.
Every TROL meet doubles as a regular club meet, but we still find that we have to emphasize that TROL meets are open to all - we still get the occassional person asking "can I come or is that just for kids?" or "I never knew I could come - I always thought they were just for the kids."
After 5 years, we've added several new "regulars" to our event attendees, and some helpers for control pickup, etc; and TROL is finally starting to produce new regular directors or course setters (although we could push that a little more). One of the HS students and his mom handled a day-of-event last year, and helped put out the controls, although I did most of the design and setting. A couple of the kids have tried course design (although mostly their courses need a lot of help), and this year one of the HS boys (dylpop) set and directed a very high quality 3-sprint course event, with just a little vetting and consulting from me. I'm hoping he will do a lot more in the future.
It helps that we have one person (thanks cedarcreek) who really likes to run SI results at almost every event, although a few of us others help out or can take it over in a pinch.
Every TROL meet doubles as a regular club meet, but we still find that we have to emphasize that TROL meets are open to all - we still get the occassional person asking "can I come or is that just for kids?" or "I never knew I could come - I always thought they were just for the kids."
After 5 years, we've added several new "regulars" to our event attendees, and some helpers for control pickup, etc; and TROL is finally starting to produce new regular directors or course setters (although we could push that a little more). One of the HS students and his mom handled a day-of-event last year, and helped put out the controls, although I did most of the design and setting. A couple of the kids have tried course design (although mostly their courses need a lot of help), and this year one of the HS boys (dylpop) set and directed a very high quality 3-sprint course event, with just a little vetting and consulting from me. I'm hoping he will do a lot more in the future.
It helps that we have one person (thanks cedarcreek) who really likes to run SI results at almost every event, although a few of us others help out or can take it over in a pinch.
Apr 19, 2014 2:12 AM
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We can't do many meets, not really before mid April, definitely not regular meets. Even without the arctic vortex it is just too cold and too much snow. So we do have some Score-Os that one can run, ski or snowshoe.
Apr 19, 2014 12:36 PM
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Yes, you would definitely have to have a different season than WIOL or TROL. I don't know how a summer season would go over in your area - harder to coordinate kids when they are not in school. Maybe fall, although that conflicts with your cross country runners.
Apr 19, 2014 10:28 PM
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So do you all have enough e-punches for everyone or do you borrow some or keep reusing the same ones or does the school provide?
Also, do you loose many e-punches?
Also, do you loose many e-punches?
Apr 20, 2014 3:54 AM
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TROL: Students who buy a season pass are assigned an e-punch for the season. We have several plastic cases with individual compartments (like ones used for fishing lures or toolbox storage of small hardware components.). On the inside lid is a diagram of the compartments with each student's name, card number, and school. When checking in at an event, students are responsible for removing their own SI card and returning it when the course is complete. Sometimes one gets taken home by mistake, but actual losses are pretty rare. If a student does lose one, they have to pay $40 before they can be be issued a new one. Students are permitted to check out their cards if they are traveling to an out-of-town meet.
All of our rental SI cards now have the wrist cord "leashes", although a couple of the older experienced TROL season pass members don't like them and have removed them from "their" cards. Since this year was the first for the leashes, I haven't been too aggressive about requiring them to be kept on.
We have enough rentals (close to 100 including those assigned to season pass holders) for most regular season events, but we also have a reciprocal rental agreement with two neighbor clubs (MVOC and OLOU) which brings us (and them) up to 300 for larger events.
All of our rental SI cards now have the wrist cord "leashes", although a couple of the older experienced TROL season pass members don't like them and have removed them from "their" cards. Since this year was the first for the leashes, I haven't been too aggressive about requiring them to be kept on.
We have enough rentals (close to 100 including those assigned to season pass holders) for most regular season events, but we also have a reciprocal rental agreement with two neighbor clubs (MVOC and OLOU) which brings us (and them) up to 300 for larger events.
Apr 20, 2014 11:27 AM
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What makes each of these leagues a league? Are there cumulative points by the schools? Are there dual meet competitions within the meets?
Is there a season long ranking of schools? of individuals?
Sorry I probably could go to each web site to find this out but I'll just throw it out there.
If there is anyone reading who is attached to any of the JROTC competitions I'd be interested in knowing how you score and how you grow the competitions.
Is there a season long ranking of schools? of individuals?
Sorry I probably could go to each web site to find this out but I'll just throw it out there.
If there is anyone reading who is attached to any of the JROTC competitions I'd be interested in knowing how you score and how you grow the competitions.
Apr 20, 2014 2:54 PM
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TROL has at least 12 events. Each student gets points (1000 for fastest male and female students on the course). Best 6 scores count for student's season score. So the maximum individual season score is 6000.
Each meet, the best 3 individual scores from a school count for a school score for that week. So if a school has the first place boy and the first place girl, that is 2000 points. If their next fastest student (kinda slow) was double the winning time, he would get 500, so the school would have 2500 for that meet.
Like for individuals, the school's best 6 scores are added for a season score. Theoretical maximum of 18,000. At the end of the season there are trophies to the schools and individual award certificates.
At each meet, only courses done individually count, and if a student does more than one course, only the first can count.
We have four levels:
Course 1, white - primary school grades 5 and lower
Course 2, yellow - middle school grades 8 and lower
Course 3, orange - HSJV, grades 12 and lower
Course 4 or 5, green - HS varsity, grades 12 or lower
Next year we are planning to add a red course designated collegiate / HS super varsity.
Students can always do a lower level course or do a course in pairs, but it only counts in TROL standings if they run solo on a course at their grade eligibility.
Each meet, the best 3 individual scores from a school count for a school score for that week. So if a school has the first place boy and the first place girl, that is 2000 points. If their next fastest student (kinda slow) was double the winning time, he would get 500, so the school would have 2500 for that meet.
Like for individuals, the school's best 6 scores are added for a season score. Theoretical maximum of 18,000. At the end of the season there are trophies to the schools and individual award certificates.
At each meet, only courses done individually count, and if a student does more than one course, only the first can count.
We have four levels:
Course 1, white - primary school grades 5 and lower
Course 2, yellow - middle school grades 8 and lower
Course 3, orange - HSJV, grades 12 and lower
Course 4 or 5, green - HS varsity, grades 12 or lower
Next year we are planning to add a red course designated collegiate / HS super varsity.
Students can always do a lower level course or do a course in pairs, but it only counts in TROL standings if they run solo on a course at their grade eligibility.
Apr 20, 2014 6:06 PM
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WIOL
Schedule: 8 events. 7 that make up the season championship. And the 8th is one-race championship. There are two events per month from November through February.
Season Competitions:
Elementary Boys, Individual
Elementary Girls, Individual
Middle School Boys, Individual
Middle School Girls, Individual
Middle School, Team (co-ed)
JV Boys North, Individual
JV Boys South, Individual
JV Girls, Individual
JV Boys North, Team
JV Boys South, Team
JV Girls, Team
Varsity Boys, Individual
Varsity Girls, Individual
Varsity Boys, Team
Varsity Girls, Team
The one-race championship at the end of the season has the same categories, except that all JV Boys are combined into one category.
Scoring:
In each individual category, the winner gets 100 points, second place 95, then 92, 90, 89, ... A team can be any size, but only the best 3 scores from any event count towards the team score. For the season championships, the best four scores are added. For individuals, a perfect score is 400. For teams, a perfect score is 1148 (except middle school, where it's 1180).
Courses:
Course 1: Elementary School (& Public Beginner)
Course 2: Middle School
Course 3: JV Girls (& Public Intermediate)
Course 4N & 4S: JV Boys North & South
Course 5: Public Short Advanced
Course 6: Varsity Boys & Varsity Girls
Course 7: Public Advanced (the adult league, with the same individual scoring as the kids)
The venues also get more difficult as the season progresses. The early races are held at "trails only" venues, and the late races are held at our most challenging venues.
E-Punches
E-punches are given out to coaches at the start of the season, and how they keep track of them is up to them. At the end of the season, they get returned, and any that go missing incur a $40 replacement fee. I don't know how many club-owned e-punches there are, but it's gotta be close to 300 (which is worth over $10,000).
Schedule: 8 events. 7 that make up the season championship. And the 8th is one-race championship. There are two events per month from November through February.
Season Competitions:
Elementary Boys, Individual
Elementary Girls, Individual
Middle School Boys, Individual
Middle School Girls, Individual
Middle School, Team (co-ed)
JV Boys North, Individual
JV Boys South, Individual
JV Girls, Individual
JV Boys North, Team
JV Boys South, Team
JV Girls, Team
Varsity Boys, Individual
Varsity Girls, Individual
Varsity Boys, Team
Varsity Girls, Team
The one-race championship at the end of the season has the same categories, except that all JV Boys are combined into one category.
Scoring:
In each individual category, the winner gets 100 points, second place 95, then 92, 90, 89, ... A team can be any size, but only the best 3 scores from any event count towards the team score. For the season championships, the best four scores are added. For individuals, a perfect score is 400. For teams, a perfect score is 1148 (except middle school, where it's 1180).
Courses:
Course 1: Elementary School (& Public Beginner)
Course 2: Middle School
Course 3: JV Girls (& Public Intermediate)
Course 4N & 4S: JV Boys North & South
Course 5: Public Short Advanced
Course 6: Varsity Boys & Varsity Girls
Course 7: Public Advanced (the adult league, with the same individual scoring as the kids)
The venues also get more difficult as the season progresses. The early races are held at "trails only" venues, and the late races are held at our most challenging venues.
E-Punches
E-punches are given out to coaches at the start of the season, and how they keep track of them is up to them. At the end of the season, they get returned, and any that go missing incur a $40 replacement fee. I don't know how many club-owned e-punches there are, but it's gotta be close to 300 (which is worth over $10,000).
Apr 20, 2014 10:21 PM
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Thank you for sharing some of your Easter time to pass on your league modus operendii. I'm interested because I've become somewhat involved in the Florida school competitions.
Florida school orienteering has been going and going very well for many years. The school competitions are run by school JROTC units using yellow, orange and green courses at regular FLO and now Suncoast events.
Probably for FLO and certainly for Suncoast (the gulf coast part of Florida from Tampa south to Charlotte County) the JROTC participation is very important for the financial viability of the events.
The JROTC have an extensive set of procedures visible under JROTC on the FLO website. Up to this year each event had been stand alone with trophies to the first to third best teams on each course (times of best three orienteers on a team) and top three teams overall. Medals went to the top three males and females on each course.
This year I offered and it was accepted that I track a season long ranking of the students on each course. At first it was not understood by the students but I get the feeling it grew in popularity to the extent that some students were coming to events on their own (with parental help) if the school was not competing.
I think there must have been close to 30 Florida JROTC units at one or more of the eleven events but most schools attended no more than four as the distance and expense of travel is considerable. A student's best four results counted.
As I said I get the impression that the Ranking was/ is a popular idea but based on what I've seen from the postings above that reinforces my intention to change a few things.
First, this year only up to the top 20 on each course were ranked. With sometimes 80+ students on a yellow or orange course that left too many outside the ranking. I have to bring more in and WIOL may have the answer
Second I ranked males and females together on a course. Frankly that left too many deserving females outside the points. A leader brought it to my attention that one of his girls had won three individual medals on the Yellow course but each time failed to earn any ranking points. Next year males and females get their own ranking.
Third I have suggested to the Floida JROTC that they change the names of their courses and competitions from Yellow-Orange-Green which frankly means nothing to anyone outside the orienteering world to Freshman-Junior Varsity- Varsity which is a universal classification for US collegiate sports. Parents can brag that their kid is on the Varsity orienteering team. Their friends may not know what orienteering is but they will know that it is an accomplishment to make it to the varsity team in any sport.
Fourth - and this is definitely just from the OCIN and WIOL experience- I hope the Florida JROTC will accept the idea of ranking their teams as well as the individuals throughout the year's competitions.
Finally from a seven event calendar a few years ago all centered in the Orlando area next year we will have at least 13 events with four events in the Suncoast area entering their third year and at least one if not two new events in the Miami area.
Florida school orienteering has been going and going very well for many years. The school competitions are run by school JROTC units using yellow, orange and green courses at regular FLO and now Suncoast events.
Probably for FLO and certainly for Suncoast (the gulf coast part of Florida from Tampa south to Charlotte County) the JROTC participation is very important for the financial viability of the events.
The JROTC have an extensive set of procedures visible under JROTC on the FLO website. Up to this year each event had been stand alone with trophies to the first to third best teams on each course (times of best three orienteers on a team) and top three teams overall. Medals went to the top three males and females on each course.
This year I offered and it was accepted that I track a season long ranking of the students on each course. At first it was not understood by the students but I get the feeling it grew in popularity to the extent that some students were coming to events on their own (with parental help) if the school was not competing.
I think there must have been close to 30 Florida JROTC units at one or more of the eleven events but most schools attended no more than four as the distance and expense of travel is considerable. A student's best four results counted.
As I said I get the impression that the Ranking was/ is a popular idea but based on what I've seen from the postings above that reinforces my intention to change a few things.
First, this year only up to the top 20 on each course were ranked. With sometimes 80+ students on a yellow or orange course that left too many outside the ranking. I have to bring more in and WIOL may have the answer
Second I ranked males and females together on a course. Frankly that left too many deserving females outside the points. A leader brought it to my attention that one of his girls had won three individual medals on the Yellow course but each time failed to earn any ranking points. Next year males and females get their own ranking.
Third I have suggested to the Floida JROTC that they change the names of their courses and competitions from Yellow-Orange-Green which frankly means nothing to anyone outside the orienteering world to Freshman-Junior Varsity- Varsity which is a universal classification for US collegiate sports. Parents can brag that their kid is on the Varsity orienteering team. Their friends may not know what orienteering is but they will know that it is an accomplishment to make it to the varsity team in any sport.
Fourth - and this is definitely just from the OCIN and WIOL experience- I hope the Florida JROTC will accept the idea of ranking their teams as well as the individuals throughout the year's competitions.
Finally from a seven event calendar a few years ago all centered in the Orlando area next year we will have at least 13 events with four events in the Suncoast area entering their third year and at least one if not two new events in the Miami area.
Apr 21, 2014 7:58 AM
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GuyO:
Re: WIOL...
Do courses 1, 2 & 3 correspond closely with OUSA courses White, Yellow and Orange?
Are courses 4-7 all advanced courses with increasing physical difficulty (ie, length / climb)? Does 7 correspond with Green, Red or Blue?
Do courses 1, 2 & 3 correspond closely with OUSA courses White, Yellow and Orange?
Are courses 4-7 all advanced courses with increasing physical difficulty (ie, length / climb)? Does 7 correspond with Green, Red or Blue?
Apr 21, 2014 11:27 AM
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Thanks for this thread as my club has discussed a league as an extension of our kids program and school race. The info here is very helpful.
Apr 21, 2014 4:17 PM
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Do courses 1, 2 & 3 correspond closely with OUSA courses White, Yellow and Orange?
Generally, yes, at least for Courses 1 & 2 with White & Yellow. Courses are easy and winning times are sub-20 minutes.
Courses 3, 4N & 4S are all different, but equivalent courses. They are harder than Courses 1 & 2, but the terrain really dictates how "intermediate" they are. As I mentioned earlier, the terrain at the beginning of the season is restricted to trails only, so as the season progresses, Courses 3/4N/4S range from Yellowish to Orangeish.
We have a lot of high school JV runners who haven't orienteered before, and they usually start here. I volunteer as beginner instructor at all WIOL events, and I usually recommend that adult first-timers start on Course 3, because that's where first-timer high school students start.
Are courses 4-7 all advanced courses with increasing physical difficulty (ie, length / climb)?
Courses 4N & 4S are paired in difficulty with 3. Course 5 and Course 6 are paired similarly. Historically, Courses 3/4 were JV Girls/Boys, and Courses 5/6 were Varsity Girls/Boys, so they were different, but equivalent. Because of lower participation on the girls side, there were public participants on Course 3 (intermediate) and Course 5 (short advanced).
However, because of evolving participation rates, we're moving things around a little bit for the 2014-2015 season. One of the biggest pain points we had in the start tent was having half of the participants with assigned start times (the kids) and the other half with first-come, first-served (the public). This caused more friction than we needed, so this fall, we're splitting into two start tents.
Start Tent 1: WIOL (all start times on even minutes)
Course 1: Elementary Boys & Girls, assigned start times.
Course 2: Middle School Boys & Girls, assigned start times.
Course 3: JV Girls, assigned start times.
Course 4N: JV Boys North, assigned start times.
Course 4S: JV Boys South, assigned start times.
Course 6: Varsity Boys & Girls, assigned start times.
Start Tent 2: Public (all start times on odd minutes)
Course 1: Public Beginner, first-come, first-served
Course 3: Public Intermediate, first-come, first-served
Course 5: Public Short Advanced, first-come, first-served
Course 7: Public Advanced (Adult Leagues), first-come, first-served*
*starts every minute, as this is the most popular course
There are two big differences from last year to next year:
1) No more public on Course 2. We're seeing tremendous growth in middle school, so the start window was always packed. We feel ththis streamlines things a bit.
2) Moving Varsity Girls from a course shared with the Public Short Advanced to a course shared with Varsity Boys (from 5 to 6). With assigned start times, we can easily fit all varsity runners within the start window, and that allows plenty of breathing room on the growing Public Short Advanced course.
Does 7 correspond with Green, Red or Blue?
None. All. Depends. A Green what? Middle? Long? Sprint? Classic? What about Blue? How old are you? How old am I? A Blue Middle could be similar to a Green Long, etc.
A Course 7 is as difficult as the terrain allows. If it's at Bridle Trails State Park, it's like a long Yellow, since we have to stay on trail. If it's at the UW Campus, it's like a long Sprint, because it's a campus. If it's at Lord Hill, well, it can be really wicked, as anyone who came to 2012 IS/IC knows.
Looking at last season's winning times, the elite guys (Eric, Will, etc) were running the courses in about 30-45 minutes. None of the venues we use for WIOL are really conducive for anything longer.
Generally, yes, at least for Courses 1 & 2 with White & Yellow. Courses are easy and winning times are sub-20 minutes.
Courses 3, 4N & 4S are all different, but equivalent courses. They are harder than Courses 1 & 2, but the terrain really dictates how "intermediate" they are. As I mentioned earlier, the terrain at the beginning of the season is restricted to trails only, so as the season progresses, Courses 3/4N/4S range from Yellowish to Orangeish.
We have a lot of high school JV runners who haven't orienteered before, and they usually start here. I volunteer as beginner instructor at all WIOL events, and I usually recommend that adult first-timers start on Course 3, because that's where first-timer high school students start.
Are courses 4-7 all advanced courses with increasing physical difficulty (ie, length / climb)?
Courses 4N & 4S are paired in difficulty with 3. Course 5 and Course 6 are paired similarly. Historically, Courses 3/4 were JV Girls/Boys, and Courses 5/6 were Varsity Girls/Boys, so they were different, but equivalent. Because of lower participation on the girls side, there were public participants on Course 3 (intermediate) and Course 5 (short advanced).
However, because of evolving participation rates, we're moving things around a little bit for the 2014-2015 season. One of the biggest pain points we had in the start tent was having half of the participants with assigned start times (the kids) and the other half with first-come, first-served (the public). This caused more friction than we needed, so this fall, we're splitting into two start tents.
Start Tent 1: WIOL (all start times on even minutes)
Course 1: Elementary Boys & Girls, assigned start times.
Course 2: Middle School Boys & Girls, assigned start times.
Course 3: JV Girls, assigned start times.
Course 4N: JV Boys North, assigned start times.
Course 4S: JV Boys South, assigned start times.
Course 6: Varsity Boys & Girls, assigned start times.
Start Tent 2: Public (all start times on odd minutes)
Course 1: Public Beginner, first-come, first-served
Course 3: Public Intermediate, first-come, first-served
Course 5: Public Short Advanced, first-come, first-served
Course 7: Public Advanced (Adult Leagues), first-come, first-served*
*starts every minute, as this is the most popular course
There are two big differences from last year to next year:
1) No more public on Course 2. We're seeing tremendous growth in middle school, so the start window was always packed. We feel ththis streamlines things a bit.
2) Moving Varsity Girls from a course shared with the Public Short Advanced to a course shared with Varsity Boys (from 5 to 6). With assigned start times, we can easily fit all varsity runners within the start window, and that allows plenty of breathing room on the growing Public Short Advanced course.
Does 7 correspond with Green, Red or Blue?
None. All. Depends. A Green what? Middle? Long? Sprint? Classic? What about Blue? How old are you? How old am I? A Blue Middle could be similar to a Green Long, etc.
A Course 7 is as difficult as the terrain allows. If it's at Bridle Trails State Park, it's like a long Yellow, since we have to stay on trail. If it's at the UW Campus, it's like a long Sprint, because it's a campus. If it's at Lord Hill, well, it can be really wicked, as anyone who came to 2012 IS/IC knows.
Looking at last season's winning times, the elite guys (Eric, Will, etc) were running the courses in about 30-45 minutes. None of the venues we use for WIOL are really conducive for anything longer.
Apr 21, 2014 5:39 PM
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LAOC COOL
Runs from October through May at our regular club events - typically one a month.
Points are by place with best five scores at each event counting toward the school score. The place based scoring system is easy to apply to different course formats. We just work with whatever format the course setter is doing that month - sometimes point-to-point, sometimes score-O.
Most of the kids signed up are HS JROTC with a few family kids and one venturing scout unit. We don't require that the scoring affiliation be a school, it can be any organized youth group. Some events get very few League participants, some get a bunch.
One thing we do a little differently is that we allow League participants to run in groups on the course. This creates some scoring challenges - you've got to know who is in the group and some groups are coed. We split the points between the kids in the group. So if you are running individually and come in first place you get 50 points. If you are running with a buddy and come in first place, you get 25 points each. To facilitate the coed aspect of this, we score based on place on the course, not within each class. But we still give individual awards based on each class at the end of the season.
Classes:
Primary Boys
Primary Girls
White Open Boys
White Open Girls
Intermediate Boys
Intermediate Girls
Yellow Open Boys
Yellow Open Girls
JV Boys
JV Girls
Varsity Boys
Varsity Girls
School Trophies given for Primary, Intermediate, JV, and Varsity
The JROTC Instructors who have been organizing one-time scoring events at our meets are somewhat burnt out, so next year the plan is to send one LOI at the beginning of the year pushing the League.
Runs from October through May at our regular club events - typically one a month.
Points are by place with best five scores at each event counting toward the school score. The place based scoring system is easy to apply to different course formats. We just work with whatever format the course setter is doing that month - sometimes point-to-point, sometimes score-O.
Most of the kids signed up are HS JROTC with a few family kids and one venturing scout unit. We don't require that the scoring affiliation be a school, it can be any organized youth group. Some events get very few League participants, some get a bunch.
One thing we do a little differently is that we allow League participants to run in groups on the course. This creates some scoring challenges - you've got to know who is in the group and some groups are coed. We split the points between the kids in the group. So if you are running individually and come in first place you get 50 points. If you are running with a buddy and come in first place, you get 25 points each. To facilitate the coed aspect of this, we score based on place on the course, not within each class. But we still give individual awards based on each class at the end of the season.
Classes:
Primary Boys
Primary Girls
White Open Boys
White Open Girls
Intermediate Boys
Intermediate Girls
Yellow Open Boys
Yellow Open Girls
JV Boys
JV Girls
Varsity Boys
Varsity Girls
School Trophies given for Primary, Intermediate, JV, and Varsity
The JROTC Instructors who have been organizing one-time scoring events at our meets are somewhat burnt out, so next year the plan is to send one LOI at the beginning of the year pushing the League.
Apr 21, 2014 10:59 PM
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Has anyone tried using the p-cards for the e-punches? The appeal is half the cost.
Also, what are people charging for entry fees? The same as a regular event or is there a special rate?
Also, what are people charging for entry fees? The same as a regular event or is there a special rate?
Apr 22, 2014 11:28 AM
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geof:
We used some (borrowed from West Point) at an event last year. While the cards read the control boxes data OK we could not get OR to download the data. WP managed to get the splits off the cards later but not sure how.
Supposedly they work OK with OE.
Supposedly they work OK with OE.
Apr 22, 2014 12:21 PM
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Almost on-topic: Is anyone getting regular orienteering into the teacher-training colleges?
Apr 22, 2014 12:36 PM
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also almost on-topic: at the PE teacher conference I went to there was a college professor who told me she would have a student contact me for some input on orienteering, as the student and her group were supposed to research orienteering, prepare 3 teaching units and then teach 1. Despite all the links and info I sent, and suggestions I gave them, they still chose to present compass and bearings as their unit....
Apr 22, 2014 1:12 PM
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Entry fees at OCIN / TROL:
Kids can buy a season pass for $60. This gives free entry to all TROL races and practice meets plus discount to our A meet and one day training camp in November, plus a student membership to OUSA with ONA magazine. If a family has more than 1 kid in TROL, the season pass is $50 per kid, but only one kid (default is the oldest, or parent-designated) gets student membership and ONA, while siblings get a junior membership with no magazine. The pass includes use of SI card and thumb or baseplate compass at all events.
You can also pay by the event which is $7 with SI card rental or $5 if you own your own SI.
With 16 events last season, (plus the OUSA membership and big discounts at 6 "A" races), that makes the season pass easily a $200 value. Most years at least one kid buys a pass and doesn't come to a single event. But others come to almost everything and really get their money's worth. And with the kids, come parents and siblings who pay for their own courses. So even though we kind of give away the store on the season pass, it increases overall attendance and revenue and is an investment in the future.
We also offer a JROTC unit pass. I think we priced it at $100 which gives an individual OUSA membership to the instructor plus 20 event entries among any combination of students. Additional entries can be added throughout the season at $4 per student. But we still don't get much JROTC attendance. Most of the units here are too busy with air rifle, drill, and other activities and orienteering is at best a secondary or tertiary interest.
The last couple years, kids who scored more than 3000 points in the TROL season also got a full scholarship to TJOC if they wanted to go.
Kids can buy a season pass for $60. This gives free entry to all TROL races and practice meets plus discount to our A meet and one day training camp in November, plus a student membership to OUSA with ONA magazine. If a family has more than 1 kid in TROL, the season pass is $50 per kid, but only one kid (default is the oldest, or parent-designated) gets student membership and ONA, while siblings get a junior membership with no magazine. The pass includes use of SI card and thumb or baseplate compass at all events.
You can also pay by the event which is $7 with SI card rental or $5 if you own your own SI.
With 16 events last season, (plus the OUSA membership and big discounts at 6 "A" races), that makes the season pass easily a $200 value. Most years at least one kid buys a pass and doesn't come to a single event. But others come to almost everything and really get their money's worth. And with the kids, come parents and siblings who pay for their own courses. So even though we kind of give away the store on the season pass, it increases overall attendance and revenue and is an investment in the future.
We also offer a JROTC unit pass. I think we priced it at $100 which gives an individual OUSA membership to the instructor plus 20 event entries among any combination of students. Additional entries can be added throughout the season at $4 per student. But we still don't get much JROTC attendance. Most of the units here are too busy with air rifle, drill, and other activities and orienteering is at best a secondary or tertiary interest.
The last couple years, kids who scored more than 3000 points in the TROL season also got a full scholarship to TJOC if they wanted to go.
Apr 22, 2014 3:27 PM
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acme:
So, I've got a scoring system, maps and events set up and I have no participants.
How are people getting kids/schools to show up to the league events when starting up? How many kids showed up in the early stages of development? How many years did it take to get say 100 kids to show up on a regular basis? We don't have much JROTC, so we won't get numbers there.
Also, how many volunteer hours are clubs putting in to get a league off the ground? How many hours to keep it going?
Thanks.
How are people getting kids/schools to show up to the league events when starting up? How many kids showed up in the early stages of development? How many years did it take to get say 100 kids to show up on a regular basis? We don't have much JROTC, so we won't get numbers there.
Also, how many volunteer hours are clubs putting in to get a league off the ground? How many hours to keep it going?
Thanks.
Apr 22, 2014 7:09 PM
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@carlch, WIOL charges $40 early registration for an 8-meet season + championship, or $7 each paid day-of-meet. The season pass was so effective, we extended it to adults for each of our four event series, but a lesser discount (one meet free).
@ndobbs and @andreais, getting curriculum into schools is extremely difficult. I have seen it happen just once without significant consulting. We need an OUSA plug&play middle school curriculum that can increase the chances of success.
@bgr, congrats on the technical success of your program so far. Not to understate what's ahead, but you've already cleared some of the hurdles that some leagues never get past. From here on out, it's realistic expectations, marketing, communication, and patience.
100 kids/meet is a very high bar. Even WIOL is only twice that, after 30+ years. A more realistic starting goal might be 20 kids. And more importantly, kids bringing their friends. Once you've tapped into the social network, at whatever attendance level, you're on your way.
Marketing should include a handout that parents can take home, tapping into free event calendars for newspapers, city events, and youth blogs. This is a totally different skill set from the technical challenge of creating a league from scratch, so finding someone who loves doing this is a first big step. That person is also a good candidate for the communication-heavy focus of wrapping up each meet in a positive way and making each upcoming meet sound like a must-do family event.
Patience is tough. We've just added boy & girl youth categories to our spring series and have a whopping 7 kids so far. We're going to celebrate that, maybe boost it to 10, make them feel like leaders, and see if with their help and youth communication we can boost it by 50% next year. By 2020, we could be at 50 kids happily orienteering outside the WIOL season, with no bump from JROTC.
@ndobbs and @andreais, getting curriculum into schools is extremely difficult. I have seen it happen just once without significant consulting. We need an OUSA plug&play middle school curriculum that can increase the chances of success.
@bgr, congrats on the technical success of your program so far. Not to understate what's ahead, but you've already cleared some of the hurdles that some leagues never get past. From here on out, it's realistic expectations, marketing, communication, and patience.
100 kids/meet is a very high bar. Even WIOL is only twice that, after 30+ years. A more realistic starting goal might be 20 kids. And more importantly, kids bringing their friends. Once you've tapped into the social network, at whatever attendance level, you're on your way.
Marketing should include a handout that parents can take home, tapping into free event calendars for newspapers, city events, and youth blogs. This is a totally different skill set from the technical challenge of creating a league from scratch, so finding someone who loves doing this is a first big step. That person is also a good candidate for the communication-heavy focus of wrapping up each meet in a positive way and making each upcoming meet sound like a must-do family event.
Patience is tough. We've just added boy & girl youth categories to our spring series and have a whopping 7 kids so far. We're going to celebrate that, maybe boost it to 10, make them feel like leaders, and see if with their help and youth communication we can boost it by 50% next year. By 2020, we could be at 50 kids happily orienteering outside the WIOL season, with no bump from JROTC.
Apr 22, 2014 10:53 PM
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In the first few years of WIOL (mid '80s) we had maybe 20 participants on a good day. It would be interesting (and perhaps enlightening) for someone to do the historical research and gather statistics, look for trends, etc. Where we are today is the result of three decades of effort and experimentation. We're still learning.
As @bobfo points out, the social network is key. Outside of JROTC, many of the new kids are friends of "veterans". The latter came either as the children of orienteers or, occasionally, because of some publicity that worked or a teacher who suggested orienteering. WIOL's founder tried to find what he called our "fifth column", teachers who would promote the league with their students. He didn't find very many and even today such teachers are not that numerous.
We have had a couple of cross country coaches talk it up with their runners as an after-season training idea and we have gained a few long term orienteers from this. It is true, though, that most cross country coaches are not excited about their runners trying orienteering. [But see my next posting for a publicity idea.]
In my experience, it is unlikely that high schools will adopt O' into their curriculum. I agree with @bobfo that a better audience is middle schools.
Regarding JROTC, we have established WIOL as a reliable activity - an off-the-shelf commodity - that the units can Just Go To. Unfortunately, it seems that for most of the JROTC students that's about all it is, a class assignment. We do have a few unit commanders who "get" orienteering and actually make the time to teach the sport and teach it well. Not surprisingly, their teams do better ... :)
As @bobfo points out, the social network is key. Outside of JROTC, many of the new kids are friends of "veterans". The latter came either as the children of orienteers or, occasionally, because of some publicity that worked or a teacher who suggested orienteering. WIOL's founder tried to find what he called our "fifth column", teachers who would promote the league with their students. He didn't find very many and even today such teachers are not that numerous.
We have had a couple of cross country coaches talk it up with their runners as an after-season training idea and we have gained a few long term orienteers from this. It is true, though, that most cross country coaches are not excited about their runners trying orienteering. [But see my next posting for a publicity idea.]
In my experience, it is unlikely that high schools will adopt O' into their curriculum. I agree with @bobfo that a better audience is middle schools.
Regarding JROTC, we have established WIOL as a reliable activity - an off-the-shelf commodity - that the units can Just Go To. Unfortunately, it seems that for most of the JROTC students that's about all it is, a class assignment. We do have a few unit commanders who "get" orienteering and actually make the time to teach the sport and teach it well. Not surprisingly, their teams do better ... :)
Apr 22, 2014 11:26 PM
#
Here is a publicity idea that I'd love to try but we (WIOL) haven't yet for fear that it might be *too* successful and our already-stretched-thin resources will be overwhelmed.
First, some background as to how this idea evolved. At one of our meets (a regular meet, I think, given the timing - our WIOL season starts after the cross country season), I noticed that a cross country course was being set up for a meet that afternoon. I took the extra maps after our meet and started handing them out to the runners and coaches. There was interest - but also some confusion ("Is this a map of the course?"). There was no means for follow up other than to point out the club's web site URL on the map and encourage the runners to go check it out. I don't know what response rate we had.
So, after some reflection, here's the idea: Work with the organizer of a cross country race being held at a venue where there is an existing *COLOR* O' map. On the map, draw the cross country course, perhaps with added notations ("Start", "1 mile", "Refreshments", "Out of bounds", "Caution", etc.). If room allows, set a short and simple O' course near the assembly area and add it to the map. On the back of the map, use half for information about the cross country meet - schedule, special notices, whatever the organizer wants. On the other half, give a concise description of orienteering with an invitation to try the O' course. Include a meet schedule, club contact information (URL), maybe a get-in-free coupon.
Print up enough copies to hand these out to everyone who attends. Ask the organizer to include it in their race packets (bib numbers, etc.). This map *might* replace one of their handouts, making it no extra effort/cost for the organizers. If necessary, offer to help assemble the packets.
At the cross country meet, have enough easily identifiable club members (wear club jerseys/shirts) to be at the start of the O' course and several of the controls, along with a few more readily visible near the meet's information center. If possible, enlist some or the O' club's juniors. Keep the teaching quick and simple. Don't mention "compass" or "contours" except in passing.
For tracking purposes, the URL on the map can coded (www.o-club.org/xc-2014-04-22 or xc.o-club.org)
This is a relatively labor intensive project and some clubs might balk at printing a few hundred color maps to give away free, but this might be a very effective exercise. Or not, we haven't tried it. It's targeted to a specific audience and I feel that it could work very well.
First, some background as to how this idea evolved. At one of our meets (a regular meet, I think, given the timing - our WIOL season starts after the cross country season), I noticed that a cross country course was being set up for a meet that afternoon. I took the extra maps after our meet and started handing them out to the runners and coaches. There was interest - but also some confusion ("Is this a map of the course?"). There was no means for follow up other than to point out the club's web site URL on the map and encourage the runners to go check it out. I don't know what response rate we had.
So, after some reflection, here's the idea: Work with the organizer of a cross country race being held at a venue where there is an existing *COLOR* O' map. On the map, draw the cross country course, perhaps with added notations ("Start", "1 mile", "Refreshments", "Out of bounds", "Caution", etc.). If room allows, set a short and simple O' course near the assembly area and add it to the map. On the back of the map, use half for information about the cross country meet - schedule, special notices, whatever the organizer wants. On the other half, give a concise description of orienteering with an invitation to try the O' course. Include a meet schedule, club contact information (URL), maybe a get-in-free coupon.
Print up enough copies to hand these out to everyone who attends. Ask the organizer to include it in their race packets (bib numbers, etc.). This map *might* replace one of their handouts, making it no extra effort/cost for the organizers. If necessary, offer to help assemble the packets.
At the cross country meet, have enough easily identifiable club members (wear club jerseys/shirts) to be at the start of the O' course and several of the controls, along with a few more readily visible near the meet's information center. If possible, enlist some or the O' club's juniors. Keep the teaching quick and simple. Don't mention "compass" or "contours" except in passing.
For tracking purposes, the URL on the map can coded (www.o-club.org/xc-2014-04-22 or xc.o-club.org)
This is a relatively labor intensive project and some clubs might balk at printing a few hundred color maps to give away free, but this might be a very effective exercise. Or not, we haven't tried it. It's targeted to a specific audience and I feel that it could work very well.
Apr 22, 2014 11:48 PM
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I found the results from WIOL's inaugural meet, November 20, 1982, in Seattle's Volunteer Park. There were 14 starts involving 17 students (some participated as pairs); four schools were represented.
For anyone who had more than 17 participants at their first-ever school league meet: you're already doing better than we did! :)
For anyone who had more than 17 participants at their first-ever school league meet: you're already doing better than we did! :)
Apr 23, 2014 12:58 AM
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The idea of targeting middle school kids makes a lot of sense so thanks for pointing that out. My thinking now would be to approach the middle schools that feed the local union high school and try to get them to incorporate O' into their phys ed program. Maybe I'm too optimistic but I think they will.
Than, after a year or two, approach the high school and try to get them to include O' in their phys ed program. Again, I'm optimistic. The idea being that kids will be exposed to O' for several years in a row---no matter if they like it or not!
I should mention the most of the schools here have some land associated with them that can be mapped and used for phys ed type O' classes.
Than, after a year or two, approach the high school and try to get them to include O' in their phys ed program. Again, I'm optimistic. The idea being that kids will be exposed to O' for several years in a row---no matter if they like it or not!
I should mention the most of the schools here have some land associated with them that can be mapped and used for phys ed type O' classes.
Apr 23, 2014 4:49 AM
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What about targeting math teachers and emphasizing the spatial aspects of reading a map? PE teachers just don't seem to be getting it - to include those at our kids' school who ostensibly offered orienteering as part of their summer program. I tried sending them information about WIOL and details about our kids' participation (and successes representing the school) and got no interest whatsoever.
On the other hand, our daughter (third grader, F-10) just shared her experience at the Flying Pig for Interscholastics with her class today. Maps and medals got handed around while she explained about orienteering. The kids really got into it, and she apparently volunteered us to come in and set a course for her class. Her teacher mentioned it at least three times during an unrelated conference this afternoon...clearly, she made an impression where all my efforts with the PE faculty over the years has gone nowhere!
On the other hand, our daughter (third grader, F-10) just shared her experience at the Flying Pig for Interscholastics with her class today. Maps and medals got handed around while she explained about orienteering. The kids really got into it, and she apparently volunteered us to come in and set a course for her class. Her teacher mentioned it at least three times during an unrelated conference this afternoon...clearly, she made an impression where all my efforts with the PE faculty over the years has gone nowhere!
Apr 23, 2014 5:40 AM
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@bobfo, yep, I didn't mean getting o on the curriculum. I meant more trying to turn future teachers into orienteers. Target marketing at the student-teachers, set up events just for them, that sort of thing. Ten years down the line you might reap benefits.
Apr 23, 2014 3:20 PM
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There are lots of potential curriculum ties to math, science, social studies, even language. You just have to look at your state / school curriculum and see where it fits best, but usueally you can find several good fits in various grade levels. Then you just need a cooperative teacher who wants to try something new and different and fieels it is a good fit. If a teacher likes the idea, you can find curriculum ties to almost any grade and subject.
Apr 23, 2014 5:40 PM
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Orienteering has nice ties to fitness, math, science, geography, etc.. The challenge is in making it consumable. At best, it is a short, plug & play unit for then when the class is not behind on achieving required learning standards.
Even when taught in this way, O will still be a single unit--a one- or two-week blip on the calendar. Then...pickleball...or fractals. As Mike Minium says, best to get a teacher personally engaged in the sport. Once that happens, the magic begins, from family and friends to full-blown outdoor clubs.
Even when taught in this way, O will still be a single unit--a one- or two-week blip on the calendar. Then...pickleball...or fractals. As Mike Minium says, best to get a teacher personally engaged in the sport. Once that happens, the magic begins, from family and friends to full-blown outdoor clubs.
Apr 23, 2014 8:03 PM
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There are lots of potential curriculum ties to math, science, social studies, even language.
With all due respect, this is quite a stretch, especially at the middle school level (and this coming from someone who articulated the link between orienteering and semiotics).
A better approach might be to articulate a link between orienteering and environmental awareness, or articulate an alternative sport where those who are not the best in terms of raw speed can be competitive with those who are, each challenging each other.
Both of these points might be salable, and even if not, both are virtuous. Convincing a middle school teacher that orienteering is related to social studies, language, et. al. just seems silly, but maybe I'm only speaking for my son's French teacher. :)
HTH
With all due respect, this is quite a stretch, especially at the middle school level (and this coming from someone who articulated the link between orienteering and semiotics).
A better approach might be to articulate a link between orienteering and environmental awareness, or articulate an alternative sport where those who are not the best in terms of raw speed can be competitive with those who are, each challenging each other.
Both of these points might be salable, and even if not, both are virtuous. Convincing a middle school teacher that orienteering is related to social studies, language, et. al. just seems silly, but maybe I'm only speaking for my son's French teacher. :)
HTH
Apr 23, 2014 9:44 PM
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Those who are interested in the multi-curricular benefit of orienteering should read - if you haven't already done so - Bob Putnam's article in a recent issue of Orienteering North America. It explains how we made a simple map and put on a simple course for participants at a STEM (science, technology, environment (I think) and math) conference and hit a home run with the participants.
About groups coming orienteering, be they scout groups, JROTC units, phys ed classes, hiking clubs or whatever it is important to remember that they are there as a result of their affiliation to another group, not for their love of orienteering. Some may find they love orienteering but the Bones, Platts, Eglinskis, etc of the world do not come along every day or even every year.
So my approach and I'm sure it is the approach of many is to the group leader "how can I make your job easier?" and "how can I make it easier for you to better access orienteering resources?" I try to fit in to their program, not try to get them to fit in to the orienteering program.
In some cases that has just meant pointing them to orienteering resources on line but in most it has meant a great increase in their orienteering interest comes when they have orienteering style maps available for their school and/ or nearby parks.
I originally thought I could get some funds to build up Suncoast (Florida) Orienteering by selling maps of school grounds. I sold two but I did much better by giving maps first to schools that helped put on Suncoast events and it is now proving a good idea to just get a map in to the hands of schools, let them use the maps to build interest and skill in their school teams. The payoff comes in two ways - increased participation from the schools ($$$ for Suncoast) and more satisfaction through better success rates (courses completed) by their students.
Here I should point out that George Walker of Connecticut has been a great help in drawing three of these school maps. One of his schools had students win three medals at the recent state championships and next November they will be instrumental in organizing the first orienteering meet to be held in South Florida in several years.
More later (I have to run to a Learn to Orienteer clinic in Ottawa)
About groups coming orienteering, be they scout groups, JROTC units, phys ed classes, hiking clubs or whatever it is important to remember that they are there as a result of their affiliation to another group, not for their love of orienteering. Some may find they love orienteering but the Bones, Platts, Eglinskis, etc of the world do not come along every day or even every year.
So my approach and I'm sure it is the approach of many is to the group leader "how can I make your job easier?" and "how can I make it easier for you to better access orienteering resources?" I try to fit in to their program, not try to get them to fit in to the orienteering program.
In some cases that has just meant pointing them to orienteering resources on line but in most it has meant a great increase in their orienteering interest comes when they have orienteering style maps available for their school and/ or nearby parks.
I originally thought I could get some funds to build up Suncoast (Florida) Orienteering by selling maps of school grounds. I sold two but I did much better by giving maps first to schools that helped put on Suncoast events and it is now proving a good idea to just get a map in to the hands of schools, let them use the maps to build interest and skill in their school teams. The payoff comes in two ways - increased participation from the schools ($$$ for Suncoast) and more satisfaction through better success rates (courses completed) by their students.
Here I should point out that George Walker of Connecticut has been a great help in drawing three of these school maps. One of his schools had students win three medals at the recent state championships and next November they will be instrumental in organizing the first orienteering meet to be held in South Florida in several years.
More later (I have to run to a Learn to Orienteer clinic in Ottawa)
Apr 23, 2014 10:09 PM
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@gordhun "how can I make your job easier?" that's it pretty much, or "how can I help you make your class more engaging" or "bring your class outdoors"; all with the emphasis on you and your.
Apr 23, 2014 10:21 PM
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Ok, here are just a few ideas for math curriculum: time addition and subtraction (use manual timing not SI). Time/distance calculations eg mins/km or km/hr. angles and area calculations (do a 4 or 5 control course, measure leg lengths, calculate the area enclosed.). Did you know that with a shared start and finish, for any course with the same number of controls (that does not cross over itself), the sum of the interior angles will always be the same? Time/rate calculations on through or around route choices. Percentages both on length of different routes and comparing completion time.
Where I teach, topographic maps are covered in the 7th grade social studies curriculum. Until a curriculum revision three or four years ago they were in eighth grade science curriculum. Magnetism is certainly in science. Exploration, navigation and maps are part of almost any history and geography class. And Randy's environmental studies are usually part of either social studies or science curriculum, not a separate class of its own, so of course that ties in. And with a bit of creative course planning you can potentially tie in geology, botany, rocks and minerals, fossils, watersheds, habitats. The possibilities really are limited only by your own imagination.
Language arts is a bit more of a stretch, but I've worked with teachers who have had the kids write stories about their orienteering experience, fictional stories related to their orienteering experience, letters to orienteering clubs asking for information or to national team members asking about their experiences and training. The international symbols of course equate to a foreign language and could be used for a translation exercise.
Where I teach, topographic maps are covered in the 7th grade social studies curriculum. Until a curriculum revision three or four years ago they were in eighth grade science curriculum. Magnetism is certainly in science. Exploration, navigation and maps are part of almost any history and geography class. And Randy's environmental studies are usually part of either social studies or science curriculum, not a separate class of its own, so of course that ties in. And with a bit of creative course planning you can potentially tie in geology, botany, rocks and minerals, fossils, watersheds, habitats. The possibilities really are limited only by your own imagination.
Language arts is a bit more of a stretch, but I've worked with teachers who have had the kids write stories about their orienteering experience, fictional stories related to their orienteering experience, letters to orienteering clubs asking for information or to national team members asking about their experiences and training. The international symbols of course equate to a foreign language and could be used for a translation exercise.
Apr 23, 2014 10:36 PM
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social studies
With all due respect, this is quite a stretch, especially at the middle school level
Sometimes, they come to you.
When I organized the 'Hood Hunt in downtown Wichita last summer, I used a lot of permanent features: sculptures, plaques, that sort of thing. They are easy to ask questions about, they stay for a while, and they are usually interesting.
At the social the event, I had two different middle school social studies teachers independently come up and ask me if they could use the checkpoints for their students as a field trip specifically pertaining to history.
My checkpoints involved historical information about: the Revolutionary War, World War II, the Spanish-American War, the Korean War, Negro League baseball, the Temperance Movement, 3 different instances of Native American history, and local history pertaining to: the 1880's, the 1960's, firefighters, law enforcement, and African Americans.
Looking at the remaining checkpoints, 10 of them ask about art installations, 2 of them are about ecology, and 1 asks about nautical occupations (not especially relevant in Kansas, but whatever).
Ok, ok, so the purists among you will say that a 'Hood Hunt isn't orienteering. But it did result in kids using maps to find checkpoints.
With all due respect, this is quite a stretch, especially at the middle school level
Sometimes, they come to you.
When I organized the 'Hood Hunt in downtown Wichita last summer, I used a lot of permanent features: sculptures, plaques, that sort of thing. They are easy to ask questions about, they stay for a while, and they are usually interesting.
At the social the event, I had two different middle school social studies teachers independently come up and ask me if they could use the checkpoints for their students as a field trip specifically pertaining to history.
My checkpoints involved historical information about: the Revolutionary War, World War II, the Spanish-American War, the Korean War, Negro League baseball, the Temperance Movement, 3 different instances of Native American history, and local history pertaining to: the 1880's, the 1960's, firefighters, law enforcement, and African Americans.
Looking at the remaining checkpoints, 10 of them ask about art installations, 2 of them are about ecology, and 1 asks about nautical occupations (not especially relevant in Kansas, but whatever).
Ok, ok, so the purists among you will say that a 'Hood Hunt isn't orienteering. But it did result in kids using maps to find checkpoints.
Apr 23, 2014 11:58 PM
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>>There are lots of potential curriculum ties to math, science, social studies, even language.
With all due respect, this is quite a stretch, especially at the middle school level (and this coming from someone who articulated the link between orienteering and semiotics).
My first exposure to orienteering was actually in 10th grade French class. (It honestly was kind of a stretch.)
With all due respect, this is quite a stretch, especially at the middle school level (and this coming from someone who articulated the link between orienteering and semiotics).
My first exposure to orienteering was actually in 10th grade French class. (It honestly was kind of a stretch.)
Apr 24, 2014 4:12 AM
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well, yes, not really orienteering, but I have had Language Arts exercises with elementary kids: controls had letters assigned, a rudimentary grid map of where the letters were on the playground, printout changed to letters, and the kids could create as many words they could in 1 minute - they had to download, print, clear between words.
@Pink Socks Hood Hunts might not be orienteering at its purest, but kids still hone the basic skill of navigation, so whatever works is great.
Navigation was actually there before writing and math skills, caveman could only survive if able to navigate back to his cave.... but that is the one skill that is completely ignored nowadays...
@Pink Socks Hood Hunts might not be orienteering at its purest, but kids still hone the basic skill of navigation, so whatever works is great.
Navigation was actually there before writing and math skills, caveman could only survive if able to navigate back to his cave.... but that is the one skill that is completely ignored nowadays...
Apr 24, 2014 10:23 AM
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As the late Colin Kirk used to tell it navigation and orienteering were invented by this old Irish guy, Mark O'Polo trying to find his way to and from Cathay (China).
His two buddies, O'Ree and T Ring helped him discover that by pointing toward the sunrise he could find his way to the East.
O'Polo was so thankful that he named the technique after them.
Well, that is the way Colin told it.
His two buddies, O'Ree and T Ring helped him discover that by pointing toward the sunrise he could find his way to the East.
O'Polo was so thankful that he named the technique after them.
Well, that is the way Colin told it.
Apr 24, 2014 9:48 PM
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Would be kind of nice to have an official OUSA version of something like this http://vimeo.com/75401229 available to clubs and coaches to use when promoting to schools
Apr 26, 2014 7:53 PM
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All 3 members of Cascade's championship relay team are WIOL alumni!
Apr 26, 2014 8:01 PM
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All 3 members of Cascade's championship relay team are WIOL alumni!
Apr 26, 2014 9:53 PM
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Here in southern Ontario it seems that most school sporting events are now held during school time or in the early evening on weeknights. Only the larger province-wide championships seem to be on weekends. Are any of the US youth leagues hosted on weeknights? The reason I ask is that we have trouble attracting large numbers of kids to weekend events despite having both a large and growing weeknight kids program (ARK, ARX) and large and growing schools race (1244 students pre-registered for this year's race next Wed. afternoon). It seems that weeknights are more popular than weekends for sports. As a parent I think I would prefer weeknights as well. My daughter has played soccer for almost 10 years and they only have one weekend game a year. Everything else is weeknights.
Apr 26, 2014 10:13 PM
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At least what soccer, school T&F, school CC are concerned, the sports in our area (MN and WI) still have weekend games and meets, including many on Sundays.
Apr 26, 2014 11:04 PM
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TROL covers a large area and there is very limited daylight after school during TROL season, so after school meets are not practical for most of our season.
I do an after school meeting and practice with my team every Monday. A couple kids who somewhat regularly come to those have never come to a real meet. Weather permitting we go to a park for practice. It would be great if a few other area orienteers would commit one afternoon a week (or even every 2 weeks) to a different school.
I do an after school meeting and practice with my team every Monday. A couple kids who somewhat regularly come to those have never come to a real meet. Weather permitting we go to a park for practice. It would be great if a few other area orienteers would commit one afternoon a week (or even every 2 weeks) to a different school.
Apr 27, 2014 3:40 AM
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Interesting. Southern Ontario is running successful weekday afterschool events, while further south in Ohio, they're running out of daylight on weekdays afterschool. I need to understand your event timing, Hammer, because our experience is more like Mike Minium's. In the winter, we're out of daylight by 4:30 PM, so picking up controls after a winter weekday event would turn into a complex night-o every time!
Our non-orienteering school events are a combination of afterschool and weekend, with the bigger events that last for many hours being on weekends--big invitational meets and tournaments, etc.. Those after school tend to start by 3 pm and be short, or start later on a well-lit field or gymnasium and go into the night with no issue.
Weekday events for O are unexplored territory, however. Why not on summer weekdays when the days are longer? We'll have to experiment with that.
Our non-orienteering school events are a combination of afterschool and weekend, with the bigger events that last for many hours being on weekends--big invitational meets and tournaments, etc.. Those after school tend to start by 3 pm and be short, or start later on a well-lit field or gymnasium and go into the night with no issue.
Weekday events for O are unexplored territory, however. Why not on summer weekdays when the days are longer? We'll have to experiment with that.
Apr 27, 2014 4:08 AM
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ARK uses head lamps, kids find them cool, but you're not deep in the woods, Hammer, am I right? And you are staying in one area, so to speak, thus having familiarity on your side while still doing drills useful for orienteering. But I guess weeknights you are having kids where the parents' focus is not the actual sport, but rather a fun activity for the child during the week. I bet the kids that come to the weekend things are those whose parents are also interested in the activity or the older kids who can articulate the fact that they like this particular sport. If I look in analogy to soccer or football, up to a certain age the child is enrolled in what the parent is familiar with or can help with coaching, rarely will they pick something for their child they are unfamiliar with. Then one transitions to wanting to stay with friends and peers from school, but there may be some overlap with former teams, thus continuing in the direction chosen by the parent. Only in late MS or in HS will a kid be the one really choosing what they like or even go totally against what they grew up with. And orienteering does not belong to the category many parents grew up with, and thus they may not associate the weekly fitness activity they chose for their kid to try during the week with a great competition activity for the weekend, even though they are told so.
@Hammer what would interest me is how many parents of the ARK kids will try themselves the activity, do you have a parent intro night or something for them, too?
@Hammer what would interest me is how many parents of the ARK kids will try themselves the activity, do you have a parent intro night or something for them, too?
Apr 27, 2014 11:47 AM
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@andreais: ARK follows the Orienteering Canada long-term athlete development guide so indeed is O. Where it differs is that it is a participation-based program and is not racing-based (like most other jr. Programs that preceded it). We deliberately designed ARK as participation only as we felt there was demand for that. And so we are pleased (and flattered) that other Cdn. youth O programs have adopted the same or similar approach. The third level of ARX (ARX) is designed to attract youth that want to race and based on their results we feel they do that pretty well. We actually run all levels of ARK in the forest in multiple areas at night with ARK. We had a pilot series/league of four weeknight races planned this past winter in forest or golf courses for our ARX youth but with so much snow they essentially became more training nights. But we had 20 kids out each 'race' and that was what we were aiming for. Re: parents. Well we have over 100 parent volunteers in ARK and within our ARX group over half the parents participate. A more formal "ARK for grown-ups" is in planning stages.
But back on topic, youth leagues are very different from participation based programs. Finding the right balance of fun and racing in a league we suspect is important. In my club we generally try to do as much homework as possible and then develop the promotion plan before we launch something new OR we take the 'fail fast' approach and test something quickly to see if it takes. If it doesn't work we scrap and move on quickly instead of hoping it will work. In the case of school/youth leagues we are taking this slowly. So I appreciate this thread greatly as we try to figure out our strategy.
But back on topic, youth leagues are very different from participation based programs. Finding the right balance of fun and racing in a league we suspect is important. In my club we generally try to do as much homework as possible and then develop the promotion plan before we launch something new OR we take the 'fail fast' approach and test something quickly to see if it takes. If it doesn't work we scrap and move on quickly instead of hoping it will work. In the case of school/youth leagues we are taking this slowly. So I appreciate this thread greatly as we try to figure out our strategy.
Apr 27, 2014 12:54 PM
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@Hammer I was at your presentation and love the development of the entire program and promotion. Very methodical and well planned through.
It is indeed O, but not races. And it appears that you do series of several nights in a row at the same park. In other words, parents unfamiliar with the sport don't have to worry about the youngster getting lost or disoriented, right?
And in terms of races, I get the feeling that up to a certain age, where kid pressure and drive to make their own schedule for the weekend is not yet big, the activity for the weekend will be the one chosen by the parent, and usually such that they can participate, or at least have the enjoyment of watching a game or competition.
The result of the ARK for Grown Ups will be interesting, because I think that will increase the chances for families to come together to races.
It is indeed O, but not races. And it appears that you do series of several nights in a row at the same park. In other words, parents unfamiliar with the sport don't have to worry about the youngster getting lost or disoriented, right?
And in terms of races, I get the feeling that up to a certain age, where kid pressure and drive to make their own schedule for the weekend is not yet big, the activity for the weekend will be the one chosen by the parent, and usually such that they can participate, or at least have the enjoyment of watching a game or competition.
The result of the ARK for Grown Ups will be interesting, because I think that will increase the chances for families to come together to races.
Apr 28, 2014 1:31 AM
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WIOL pretty much needs to be on weekends for two reasons:
1) Severe lack of daylight on weeknights from November - February. Even if we decided to have a series of night-o, we'd be severely limited on venues, since an overwhelming majority of our venues close at dusk.
2) Geographical range of the participating schools (Oak Harbor to Spanaway, which is a 2.5 hour commute between the two, and would be 2x worse in weekday afternoon traffic). We've also had a few individuals who have participated from Tri-Cities and Portland, OR, which are also significant commutes.
WIOL could potentially do a "Spring League" on weeknights. Once Daylight Savings hits in March, the sun sets after 7pm, and after 8pm by April 15th or so. You could fit a 5-race weeknight series, going every other week, between April 15th and June 3rd, for example. For best results, you'd keep the series geographically compact near the highest concentrations of WIOL kids.
Hammer, since all of the Canadian kids play sports on weeknights, what does everyone do on weekends?
It seems like with ARK, it's a "if you build it, they will come" situation. You've got 750 kids in ARK, and 1200 kids in the schools race, all in an area smaller than what Cascade has. And if only province-wide events are on weekends, why not call your league the Ontario Adventure Running League, or something like that? The W in WIOL stands for Washington, so essentially it's a state-wide league, even though in reality it's just the Puget Sound region.
1) Severe lack of daylight on weeknights from November - February. Even if we decided to have a series of night-o, we'd be severely limited on venues, since an overwhelming majority of our venues close at dusk.
2) Geographical range of the participating schools (Oak Harbor to Spanaway, which is a 2.5 hour commute between the two, and would be 2x worse in weekday afternoon traffic). We've also had a few individuals who have participated from Tri-Cities and Portland, OR, which are also significant commutes.
WIOL could potentially do a "Spring League" on weeknights. Once Daylight Savings hits in March, the sun sets after 7pm, and after 8pm by April 15th or so. You could fit a 5-race weeknight series, going every other week, between April 15th and June 3rd, for example. For best results, you'd keep the series geographically compact near the highest concentrations of WIOL kids.
Hammer, since all of the Canadian kids play sports on weeknights, what does everyone do on weekends?
It seems like with ARK, it's a "if you build it, they will come" situation. You've got 750 kids in ARK, and 1200 kids in the schools race, all in an area smaller than what Cascade has. And if only province-wide events are on weekends, why not call your league the Ontario Adventure Running League, or something like that? The W in WIOL stands for Washington, so essentially it's a state-wide league, even though in reality it's just the Puget Sound region.
Apr 28, 2014 2:31 AM
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Unlike a soccer club, track team, or scout troop, I just can't see how an orienteering team could meet at the same park for daily or weekly training. Has anybody found a good solution to this problem?
For successful participation-based O-events, what kind of frequency do meetings/events/trainings occur with?
For successful participation-based O-events, what kind of frequency do meetings/events/trainings occur with?
Apr 28, 2014 4:27 AM
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Live at West Point or in Laramie - enough mapped area that your "park" offers more terrain than you can cover in a season.
Good question, though. You almost need to have at least three large mapped parks and transport available, or to live in a city with a transit system that can get you out to several parks easily.
Good question, though. You almost need to have at least three large mapped parks and transport available, or to live in a city with a transit system that can get you out to several parks easily.
Apr 28, 2014 11:19 AM
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If you can't vary the parks you are using for training you can get more mileage out of the park you are using by bringing variety to that park.
Besides point to point, line, relay and score orienteering you can bring further variety to those exercises by setting very long legs to practice route choice and contact with the map and very short legs for control picking and quick exits from the controls.
Vary the map by having exercises that are contours only, corridor orienteering, window orienteering.
Variety is the spice of orienteering. Apply it liberally.
Besides point to point, line, relay and score orienteering you can bring further variety to those exercises by setting very long legs to practice route choice and contact with the map and very short legs for control picking and quick exits from the controls.
Vary the map by having exercises that are contours only, corridor orienteering, window orienteering.
Variety is the spice of orienteering. Apply it liberally.
This discussion thread is closed.