Discussion: World Cup fiasco?

Is fiasco too strong a word for it? Details sketchy as I am not there (World Cup in Spain). But it sounds like the men's course had to be voided due to controls being picked up before the end of the race, so some could not finish. Did not affect the women. Some info on World of O.

The race was voided. There was a misunderstanding and one of the volunteers picked up two of the controls towards the end of the race. It affected 9 people and they were the ones expected to win. A lot of people are very upset, it seems like the organizers are the most upset of all.

Another interesting aspect of the race is it seems like the course setter got carried away with the long. Times are slow and people are destroyed.

Yes. Women's course 10.9 km. Organizer's estimated winning time stated as 76 mins. Tove took 87:43. I feel for the organizers but these sorts of things should not be happening at our sport's premier events.

I fail to see why it so hard to set appropriate courses these days, to miss winning times by appalling amounts. I'm seeing it everywhere.

Well, if the IOF wants to try something different for their "World Cups", I know a proven event production crew in the Delaware Valley of the USA. They might be receptive to the right sort of offer.

It's just a shame.

Here's a article about it, in Norwegian, but Chrome did a pretty good job translating: http://orientering.forbundetonline.no/nyheter/Side...

I think this quote is significant: "I think that the organizers are focusing on the wrong things during a World Cup event. Items in the woods and map that holds all the way to the finish is essential, and should be given priority before beginning the big screen and "streaming" of images and sound, he says with a map that has been partially disintegrated in his left hand."

Having now looked at the course, I'll say that there is a lot to like despite the longish times. 11 minutes too long is too bad, but the course is pretty epic.

It was a good course, but the heat changed everything. It was easily 80-3 degrees in the sun. After a long winter that's very noticeable. I know one runner had to stop and sit down in the shade for fear of heat stroke.

I'd easily forgive the length of the course. In rough open hilly terrain with a lot of sun a difference of 5 or 10 degrees can change the winning time by quite a lot. You can't wait until you know the temperature on the day of to finalise the courses. This happens sometimes and there's nothing you can do about it expect adapt to the conditions and enjoy a fantastic course.

The missing controls though.... Let's just say you can't be too careful at these kinds of high level events. If that means not picking up controls from any courses until every single World Cup runner is off the course then so be it.

Meanwhile, anyone from this part of the world looking at the map could definitely be forgiven for thinking that the race was in South Australia and not Spain (making it fitting that a South Australian did so well - Vanessa Round was 13th).

Jman wrote "I fail to see why it so hard to set appropriate courses these days, to miss winning times by appalling amounts. I'm seeing it everywhere."

Surely not EVERYWHERE. ;-)

I may avoid middles in the US for the rest of the year. But, definitely looking forward to NAOC. I know they will get it right. Remember 2013 Nationals? Canada gets it.

Can we quote you on that j-man? ;-)

Wow, sending people out early to collect controls is something you think might happen in a local comp where the volunteers want to go home but at a World Cup?

[COMMENT RETRACTED] tRicky 7:18pm

Looks like 22 and 23 were in the general vicinity of and on the direct route to collecting the men's 1, 2, 3.....

From World-of-O "As far as I understand, the controls were removed by an organizer responsible for picking in controls from the spectator race. While picking the spectator race controls, he took two extra controls – unfortunately those were World Cup controls which nine of the men had not yet visited"

I remember the pressure to get controls collected at the end of each day during WMOC 2002. My afternoons were spent collecting and getting the controls to the next course setter. The next morning waking up and checking and then the cycle resumed.
One miscalculation. I feel some sympathy for the poor bastards.

Fair enough, I retract my previous comment :-)

Experienced meet organizers know that control pickup demands exact planning. The control pickup people must be told that under no circumstances do they pick up any controls that are not on their list. If this rule is broken, trouble follows.

I would question an arrangement for an event of this magnitude that requires controls from one day to be used for the very next day's event. It seems like that's just asking for problems like this. I know that e-punch boxes aren't cheap but for a World Cup can't there be enough on hand so that this isn't necessary?

And like TheInvisibleLog, I have sympathy for whomever it was who actually retrieved the controls that weren't supposed to be retrieved.

I remember a World Cup race where the volunteers who were supposed to bring water to the refreshments controls decided they had better things to do and abandoned their duties, such that the water ran out early (and it was a rather hot summer day...).

Bloody volunteers - who needs em?

Bloody volunteers - who needs em?

Cheapskate orienteers who refuse to pay entry fees commensurate with the effort required to organise events (myself included).

@jjcote, http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-south-yorkshi...

@jjcote - that wasn't in the Trossachs in the mid 1980's was it ?

Ironically situated above the loch that supplies Glasgow with drinking water

Volunteers or commercial services, it seems O'Toole's Corollary still holds.

no refunds of the £26 for the cancelled Sheffield half marathon. My view, this being England, they should have used beer, and let it be one long pub crawl.

Many activities require skilled and responsible volunteer work or near-volunteer work compensated far below the time, skill and responsibility involved. I think it is fair to say most participatory sports fall into this category at least at the grass roots level, and many sports, don't have a significant higher level. I think it not just fair but essential to provide appropriate negative feedback along with positive feedback, to build and maintain a sustainable organizational foundation.

Frankly, based on my experience, orienteering was overdue for a high profile error of this type (the missing controls, not the course lengths). Within the past 10 years, I have been directly involved in at least three last-minute-tragedies-narrowly-averted of this type (control management), at national/nternational level events, one US, and two Norway of the ones I remember. I think this is a very high number, given my relatively low level of involvement during this time. I have not been involved in any World Cup or World Champs events for two decades, but I'm willing to believe the organizational standards for these events have been appropriately high, but at the next level under I think control management is frequently loose or risky. The problem is that lousy plans are oftten successful, and therefore perpetuated, and this one rose to the top level.

I feel no need to pile on the poor schmuck who screwed up. However I think it warrants amplification to point out that the real responsibility lies one and even two levels above the collector, the people who organized and OK'd the apparently risky control plan. Any plan that depends on instructions or thinking by the worker is inherently risky, because this frequently doesn't get done, or gets forgotten. The US over-collection screwup was actually done by a highy experienced and respected orienteer. Many plans sound simple to the average high IQ orienteer, but the execution is easily lost in the exhaustion, euphoria or "heat" of the event. Far better to have a simpler plan that involves more time, people, or equipment. This is not a new concept, but unfortunately it obviously needs repeating.

> Far better to have a simpler plan that involves more time, people, or equipment.
If you have the people, time or equipment. If you don't then compromises start. At this point I fear I am starting another thread on volunteer vs professional delivery. Cue the usual suspects... ;-)

Drones. What we need is cheap drones.

May not be worth the damage they cause

http://www.theage.com.au/technology/technology-new...

Some of the biggest cockups in my limited experience have been the result of complacency from very experienced orienteers taking matters for granted and "doing it the usual way" eg not reading amended rules, not checking the scale of a map.

Major stuff-ups I have seen. Control placers having an outdated version of the all controls map. Best of all was a recalcitrant course-setter trying to make a point and putting an international event at risk. In the latter case only saved by triple redundancy in control checking. I don't know how you plan for such behaviour.

In the case of Sheffield Half Marathon, many people supplied water to runners on the course. Including Sheffield Adventure Film Festival volunteers and Showroom Cinema bar staff. ShAFF included a mini urban orienteering course around the Showroom and Workstation, set by South Yorkshire Orienteers, plus sprint race in a park.

Did they bring the controls in early?

I think they are still out (paper controls stuck to walls) but I guess the cleaners might notice them sometime (OT sorry).

@T/D - A competitor in a local triathlon where I am was hit on the head by a drone 'falling from the sky' on the weekend and ended up in hospital.

Why hasn't O-ing spoken of a particular Malmalling event?

Didn't realise this was a confessional.

Did he get hit on the head with a drone?

Hi, Its about time to hear an Organisers view on the WCupSpain 2014,
after nearly two years of planning the event we the Organisers of this event are totally Gutted, one slip by a very experienced orienteer cost us the credibility we have gained over the years, we have the skills, the terrain and the weather to make this event a success, but we know we have failed. The longer that expected winning times for the long distance was a minor issue, compared with the two controls that were collected whilst the event was still live. It matters to us as much as it matters to the competitors it effected, sorry Guys. On a personal note, I enjoyed meeting some of the worlds leading competitors, and welcoming them to our country. Lets hope we can put this behind us and move on, we all love our sport, whatever level we compete at.

If there was a like button for that last sentence, I would press it.

Ditto

Yep. I've been in jumar's situation.

Cheers jumar - that is the important thing. Admire your total honesty and grasp of reality.

To jumar, it was a pity what happened, but you offered one of the most interesting courses for the last 10 years. I hope you will come back stronger and offer more high-level competitions in the future, I want to try the really interesting terrain that you have!

Hi fellow competitors, thanks for the positive postings, hope we can share the same forest, map and love of our sport together sometime.

Looks like we now have to feel sympathy for the Portuguese.

this is what theinvisiblelog is referring to

https://twitter.com/WorldofOLive/status/4542228968...

That, and an all but useless 'live' results service

Hey. I've got an idea. We should be in the Olympics! Is IOC watching?

Maybe orienteering was designed as an experimental test of O'Tooles Corollary.

Some kind of decision to be made tomorrow (from the EOC website):

"The organizing committee, recognizing some imperfections in implementing the the qualifying middle distance, without attempting to feed iniquities or evil speaking, remains serene and confident about the quality of their performance and the continuing work to develop.

Thus, on matters that have been subject to criticism, refers to a decision that best protects the interests of the sport and those of the athletes, to be made on the 11th of April.

Best regards, The EOC / ETOC 2014 Organizing Committee"

Yes, we should all avoid evil speaking. Fair point. What I take from the delay in resolution is that there is no solution that comes anywhere near optimising the competing objectives of fairness in the qualifier and an uncompromised final. Its the best argument I have seen for the new WOC structure without qualification races. But I don't think that was their objective.
Meanwhile, the situation looks like it is being used to justify the arguments for keeping the world cup races close to Scandinavia. You will have seen the tweet about the cost and risk for competitors in travelling to compete in distant locations like Turkey, NZ, Portugal, Spain (surprised Australia was left off the list).

We're a powerhouse nation.

Invis, Australia wasn't mentioned as we didn't fit into the last 15 months 'New Zealand, Turkey, Spain and Portugal have been WorldCup hosts during the last 15 months'

Yes, but we are on the agenda at the beginning of next season.

Maybe Scandinavia will realise by then that there is a 'rest of the world'.

Maybe the real fiasco is the situation where the big countries fragmented the WC program, making it less appealing for small countries, and then didn't bother turning up.

We used to be a powerhouse nation tRicky, then we started losing all our good guys to mountain bike orienteering.

The words of Piggy Muldoon come to mind... ;-)

I'm making a comeback, starting next week.

The statement by the EOC Organizing Committee is curious. Organizational mistakes are unfortunate, but as the saying goes, those who never made a mistake never made anything. It would have been more useful to the orienteering community if the following information was available on the event website:
- complaints made under rule 27;
- decisions regarding those complaints;
- protests (if any) arising from the organizer's decisions on complaints;
- jury decisions on protests.

Protest juries are appointed for all major events, presumably in anticipation that they could have something to do other than take advantage of the hospitality tent.

By way of comparison, here is how it's done in sailing

Why SEA of EOC didn't post official protest (1. Details of the Complaint) from the official Complaint/Protest Form?

In Jury Guidelines is written:

After the event
1. The IOF Event Adviser should report details of any protests...

The IOF news is just a summary for media (and not official protest report in my opinion)
http://orienteering.org/middle-distance-qualificat...

Unofficial info via World of O is that all men will be able to run in the Middle Final.

The qualification races have been voided and all men and women have been put in the A-Final.
http://www.eoc2014.fpo.pt/index.php/en/198-organiz...

Oh my! "control 101 was misplaced on a hill, 30 meters southeast instead of a (non existing) knoll"

Anyone know what the issue was with 112 and the taped route?

I heard start list will be based on world rankings. It seems qualie times would have been a better choice, but since the qualie was voided, it wasn't really an option.

The area around 112 was badly mapped apparently. The control was quite obvious but I think it affected a couple of people (those who were paying more attention than me!).
The taped route was difficult to see on the map and was badly marked on the ground. I nearly ran straight on when it turned to the right and down a hill. I can definitely see why there were complaints!

There are rumours of more controls in the wrong place in the sprint qual today. Apparently one was moved 5m by a restaurant owner at some point, so it affected some people. There are vague twitterings about another one put out wrong as well.

Looks like placing the control up the stairs would have been safer ;-)
Also might have added a touch of route choice?

Very tough for the organizers. To jumar and all the other organizers - we do all love our sport, and appreciate the amount of effort and dedication you guys put in. As you say, put it behind us, learn a little, and move on. I'm looking forward to my next visit to run in your races

Whatever happend to the idea of marking pavement cafes as out of bounds with 50% purple?

We use it for that reason on our local maps. Well one of them anyway.

It just gets worse. Looks like the Long distance courses for tomorrow have have been leaked.

Is there any confirmation of this?

yep: https://twitter.com/smartoma/status/45580465585625...

Oh my god.

Poor bastards... just when it couldn't get any worse

The organisers are going to email the coaches soon with important information concerning EOC final LD.

They're not having much fun, those organisers!

It is a Scandi plot. I've said it before--they allowed these developing O nations to host marquee events only to sabotage them. Then, they can ride to the rescue with impeccable organization etc... Another WC/EOC in Iberia (or south of Denmark, save Switzerland) in our lifetime? For the good of the sport, they won't let that happen.

(This is just a little bit of irony, in case you were wondering.)

"Once is happenstance. Twice is coincidence. Three times, it's enemy action."

Although I haven't been keeping close track - maybe this is already 4 or more major problems afflicting this event.

Unlike earlier issues, this isn't something a collective planning session followed by a trip to the nearest copy shop can't fix. It's not that hard to place enough CPs for a Long in Portugal, looks like they have roads on which cars can drive. No the copy shop won't give the best quality, but it's far better than having a race over a known course or not having it at all.

Debacle.

I don't think this one can be seen as the fault of the organisers. Put it down to O'Tooles corollary [that Murphy was an optimist]. I am feeling some sympathy for them.

From the EOC web site:
Upon the release of today's Middle Distance maps at EOC's 2014 website, due to a mistake, tomorow's Long Distance Final A maps and courses Men and Women were available for about 15 minutes somewhere between 18h45 and 19h15.

For fairness reasons, maps and old courses will be available at the quarantine for all teams.

Two new courses will be set for tomorow's Long Distance Final A and first start men has been changed to 10h00 GMT and 10h01 for the women.

So the men and women's middle having the same leg in opposite directions seems like a pretty small issue based on today's events eh! So unfortunate.

Will they be offset printed?

The sneak preview suggests off-set would be an unnecessary luxury. Its not as if its complex detailed terrain.

Perhaps it was all a way of reducing the course length without admitting 23km was too long. Only 20km in this version.

The winning times were right on, and I haven't heard of any problems (except for result reporting). Seems like they managed to recover just fine!