Discussion: North Dakota orienteering?

Is there such a thing? I might be moving to Grand Forks for PhD work for a couple years, but O-life considerations are a major influence on decisions about where to live.

It does not appear that there is an active club in North Dakota. Has there ever been a club there? Are there any existing maps in the area, and if so, where are those mapped areas?

Also, I see that MNOC and Manitoba O clubs have events within a day's drive of Grand Forks, but wondering if MNOC has any history, plans, or members in ND?

If anyone is knowledgeable about orienteering in this state I'd be real curious what I might be getting into if I do move to ND for a bit. Obviously if there are already maps in the area it would be relatively easy for me & others to start putting on some events. On the other hand if there isn't any pre-existing O-infrastructure, I might be less inclined to make that move.

I think Spike once made a quickie LIDAR map in North Dakota.

Grand Forks seems to be surrounded by lots of free Lidar data.

There is really great orienteering terrain in southern Manitoba, and the Western Canadian Championships will be there this summer. Of course that's not the same a s a local club, and most MNOC events are a pretty good drive away.

But if you do move there, maybe you and the Manitoba folks can get together and convince the appropriate authorities to let you map and organize races at the International Peace Garden. Wouldn't it be cool to have a sprint through two countries?

Here's a training map of some North Dakota terrain:

http://sprintseries.org/doma/show_map.php?user=spi...

The terrain was very nice. This area is a bit south on Fargo.

Wouldn't it be cool to have a sprint through two countries?

REQUIREMENTS

1. A full list of participants must be transmitted to USCIS no later than 4 months before the event on Form I-2944.

2. Each participant must possess a passport at all times while at the event. The passport must be in full view of the inspecting officer. We regret that due to the increased screening requirements, it is not possible to authorize participation for citizens of countries other than U.S. or Canada.

3. Two CBP officers must be present at the event at all times. The extra permit fee is U.S. $240/hour. Please inquire with Border Canada for its permit requirements.

4. Possession of the following is prohibited at all times the event site: any form of photographic or sound recording equipment, any metal objects larger than 1", any food items, and currency in the amount over U.S. $10,000.

5. A permit fee in the amount of $6000 payable to DEPARTMENT OF HOMELAND SECURITY is due no later than 3 months before the event.

We wish you event success!

Sincerely,

DEPARTMENT OF HOMELAND SECURITY

Nice fake pseudo-quote, T/D.

With LIDAR, satellite photos, and some help from people like Eddie, it's a lot easier to make decent maps than it used to be. And with the free Open Orienteering Mapper, you don't even need OCAD to do it.

I'm currently in Wichita on business, and I've already made a sprint map in my spare time (which hasn't been a lot, actually). The county has LIDAR, and I really like using OO Mapper, so it hasn't been too much of a chore.

There's someone in Wichita trying to start orienteering there (Facebook page here), so I figured I'd help 'em out by making a few maps while I'm in town.

Good terrain is the problem, though. In my opinion, it's best use for orienteering would the "Vancouver on the Prairie" (ie: sprint maps).

LIDAR of Wichita? Wouldn't aerial photos get you just as far? Aren't the roadside ditches the only contours around? ;)

There's a marathon that runs from Buffalo, NY to Niagara Falls, ON. Nice course. And they've worked out the border crossing issue for large numbers.

LIDAR of Wichita?

I was originally going to use just photos, but after a quick Google search for "Sedgwick County GIS" I was able to load an online mapping viewer that showed 1-foot contours (!) if you zoomed in that far.

The map I made used 2-foot contours (which I drew, not imported) and a 1:2500 scale (it's a small map, but it's near my hotel).

There might be some interesting terrain in the Flint Hills northeast of Wichita. Looks cool driving through anyway.

North Dakota : you might want to contact the folks at http://www.endracing.com/end-ar

For some reason, GoogleMaps shows the International Peace Garden as baeing entirely in the USA, although it looks like there's some stuff north of the border that's likely part of it as well (but it looks swampy). Having driven by there once, I don't remember it looking like a particularly interesting place to orienteer.

(Oh, here's a schematic map of the place.)

IIRC, Al Smith claimed to have orienteered in in North Dakota, but it was a very small Girl Scout event on a USGS map.

My guess is that there is some fantastic terrain in North Dakota, and that it's located very far away from the small population centers.

Thank you everyone! Thankfully it will probably be a few years before I even need to do this move, if it even happens, but this definitely helps for that decision.

Igor & Pink- that's good to hear there that the LIDAR data in the area is accessible. Certainly would make things easier if map making becomes necessary. I think my first mapping experience was so cumbersome mostly because I was using OCAD 6 free version. I've heard later versions of OCAD are not quite as cumbersome (but still cumbersome) and can import GIS data. Using OCAD 6 free version I was literally hand drawing the contours because I couldn't see a way to import the terrain data provided by the host! I'll have to check out that Open Orienteering site.

Mike- Indeed, I've been looking at the Manitoba group closely, looks like most of the events are within a 3 hr drive, and I'm fairly used to trucking down to Ohio from Michigan for O-events about the same distance anyway. It appears this could be a good excuse to see some great Manitoba scenery.

iriharding- Thanks for that tipoff, looks like a good one to contact.

jjcote- which reminds me about how I've noticed even in places like Michigan w/ an active club there seems to be a lot of people doing orienteering under our orienteering community's radar, like scouting, company events, etc. Even so much as having permanent courses already set. I'm beginning to see that if I wind up over there it will be really helpful to reach out to organizations doing those kinds of orienteering.

Still laughing at the HLS memo post. Sad thing is that's probably not very far off from what the response would be. Maybe just have a mandatory border crossing that zeros your time between sides of the border. Punch in on US side and leave your US map, get body scanned and patted down, punch in at the other side, pick up your Canada side map, now you're on your way as if nothing happened. Ugh, somehow a TSA line at an O-event just made the prospect so less appealing. :)

The Detroit Free Press marathon twice crosses the border, so there is precedent.

Indeed, if you go to the website of the marathon, you'll find something approaching the memo above. Carry passport and be prepared to be inspected, noncitizens expect trouble.

We're probably beating this one to death, but I'm pretty sure that if the start and finish were both in the same country, a momentary excursion across the border could be arranged without much hassle. The Maid of the Mist crosses the border several times during the 20 minute cruise below Niagra Falls and you don't need a passport to board (or even an ID, last time I rode it three years ago). Of course, one is not likely to jump ship and swim to the other shore, but I think one could simulate that restriction by stipulating in the rules that leaving the competition area and/or failing to return to the start/finish will be viewed as an international violation and people dumb enough to pull a stunt like that might well be detained.

One of my favorite films is and old Hitchcock film called 'North by Northwest' It is not very good by today's standards but when I was a teen I thought Eva Marie Saint was really hot!!! (So what if she was the same age as my mother)
I guess its a sign of my advancing age but now I watch the film for the great scenery around Mt Rushmore and to imagine how nice it would be to do an orienteering or rogaine event in the Black Hills near there.

The border discussion reminds me of the well-known Swedish orien-tour organizer who brought some of Europe's best to World Cup events in Canada before taking them to events in Washington State. The problem was that some of the young men were from then communist eastern Europe. They did not have the visa's necessary to enter the States.
No problem. They were dropped off in southern Alberta with topographic map and compass in hands and picked up several hours and many km/miles later in northern Idaho. The rest of the trip went without a hitch.

Next year the World Rogaining Championships will be held in the Black Hills of South Dakota, not far from Mount Rushmore.

Gord, I just watched that film (for the first time) last night on my flight to the US! When they were running around in South Dakota I thought about how much fun it would be to orienteer there.

Watching this movie within the past couple years, I was also struck by the "O" terrain depicted as being next to or above Mt Rushmore. However, a check of the topo map suggested that this terrain doesn't exist anywhere near the Dakotas, and looks to me more like Cal/ Sierra terrain, closer to Hollywood.

Movie buffs, confirm?

In other words, the woods were too open and piney, and it's probably too good to be true?

But, c'mon, the faces... that would be cool orienteering.

I think the best terrain for orienteering is near Mt Rushmore but not at Mt Rushmore.
But yes a lot of the close-ups and cliff hanging were obviously studio shots. For the movie MGM built a full scale model of Mt Rushmore at their Culver City studio.
The scene with the crop dusting plane was more likely in central California than in the mid west. The woods scenes are Sierra-like but are also typical of the Black Hills.

No problem

... before 2001, or 2013 for that matter.

The international Peace Garden park is actually located between the border stations: you pass out of the country you are leaving, turn into the park, where you can get out, stroll around, take pictures, etc, then you get back in your car and either continue on into the other country, or turn back into the one you came from, at which point you of course have to your passport.

Although Tundra's comments have a ring of truth, I would think that having a sprint race within the park would not be so different from any other visit. Runners would only be crossing back and forth where you are already freely allowed to roam. Unless that area is not quite big enough - I admit that I have not done a thorough exploration of the park.

Gord, Mt Rushmore is in South Dakota, diagonally across ND and SD from where Vector would be relocating. Much farther than either Winnipeg or Minneapolis.

I wonder what kind of security barrier is around the perimeter of the IPG. Perhaps a very high fence -- which would also, unfortunately, keep 4-legged fauna confined.

My bad. Sorry for the misdirection.

Rogaines have been held in Custer State Park northeast of Mt Rushmore by Black Hills O Club and the organizers of the 2014 WRC, which will be in a different part of the Black Hills. We had a great time there in 2011, complete with bison encounters and stories of rattlesnakes at the water controls.... Worth a trip!
(edited with to worth...)

My rogaine writeup: http://www.attackpoint.org/viewlog.jsp/user_49/per...

We did go to western ND but only to Teddy Roosevelt Natl park which probably wouldn't allow orienteering/rogaining because it would scare the bison (note difference between state and nat'l parks*).
[*just an assumption on my part]

I did a road trip with a high school friend to North Dakota before I knew about orienteering. We did a backpacking trip at Teddy Roosevelt and armed with a topo map, we pretty much hiked wherever we wanted. It was fantastic.

Based on what Rex has said about Joshua Tree, it seems like one of the issues with national parks is not allowing you to place physical controls in the environment.

But I'm not aware of trail runs of bike races in national parks, either, so maybe there's more to it than that.

Of the many, many orienteering maps that I have drafted, there is only one where I did not hand-draw the contours.

I'm with JJ on that. Except I don't have the one yet. Of course he has drafted many more maps than I have...

I always thought the terrain around Mount Rushmore/Black Hills, could be extremely sweet orienteering terrain.

As for NbyNW, the best thing about that movie is undoubtedly Cary Grant's suit.

Don't know if possibly the not placing physical controls was a unique management interpretation at Joshua Tree. We've had events with controls in other National Parks.

National Forests are usually pretty receptive, but administrative hoops and permit fees are highly variable from almost nil to outrageous. As to scaring the bison, it is the orienteer who should fear the bison, not the other way around. Since Custer SP has allowed orienteering (rogaines) and has a large bison herd, we should have some good precedent for O-ing with bison.

Organizers told us to get a tree between us and the bison so that's what Barb and I did when we found one right on our bearing. We weren't told what to do next though so we started taking photos and video. :)

In the Mark Twain NF, I could not put controls for a rogaine in a designated Wilderness Area. Fortunately, we didn't need the extra distance. (N of Goggins Mountain for 2 rogaines out of Johnson Shut-Ins SP.)

SLOC has, and will again this year, put on events at the Jefferson National Expansion Memorial (better known as The Arch) which is run by the National Parks. In fact, they came to us asking for the event. As with all venues, the attitude of the local manager is the most important determinant of access.

Aha Eric. the Defiance Sprints??