Discussion: IOF democracy

I hope APointers will not hijack the thread again because I really want to share my post which I posted it in thread "Petition to keep the soul of orienteering"
http://real-orienteers.toonmelis.com/

And I hope that we will get some feedback from Elite runners about what they are really capable to do regarding this issue.

We "normals" are out of the IOF democratic processes but Elite runners can do something. Let's see.

+++

I sympathize with the authors and admire their energy which has been put into this Petition. Young people in many cases are full of great ideas. As I understand their primary goal is to reach 1000 sign-ups.

If this is the only goal then this Petition is like many others before doomed to fail. Why?

Many international sport organizations are very closed organizations and IOF is not in any way different. Their fundamental position is: IOF's internal disagreements are solved in the best democratic way via IOF Council/Commissions and IOF members can contribute their views via official surveys and questionnaires. There is no room for civil petitions in official communication dialogue. IOF is not prepared to accept it. We have seen this in the past. They just don't want to speak with their viewers, sport fans, elite runners, coaches, volounteers.... through informal channels. Civil sport sphere has no power and this is one of the problem of democracy. Sport organizations have their idol in International Olympic committee and we all know that transparency is not its strong side.

They are saying: We are elected to do this job, we can't do wrong because we found the best solution out of many solutions presented at GA and IOF members have agreed and voted for this change (btw WC rules are not your business, this is our poligon). We don't need to listen to civil sphere or to present additional explanation of reasons for our decisions, again, again and again! Wrong! IOF is not a private company, they need to speak with civil sphere if the large amount of people want to speak about any issue. This Petition is some kind of referendum. This is the direct democracy! IOF statutes should have been revised and we should have this legal instrument so people can understand how to use it.

In case authors understand IOF structure and official communication process they should first try to get official support from IOF Athletes' commission. And the last move is always on the athletes themselves. If we compare the TdF riders and Elite Orienteers we can see what this mean. Only the athletes have the power to say: We will not run sprint events in case WC rules stay the same. We want better WC rules. Can they act as a powerful "Athletes' commission" or this commission is another toothless tiger in the IOF structure as it is GA. Can athletes achieve a common goal? Signing the petition is the easiest part of this democratic decision-making process.

Kofols, thanks for starting this thread.

I've never been a big fan of petitions, they always come across to me as: 'we don't like this, can you change it for us in some way that we won't specify?'

I'm a firm believer that if you want to see something changed you should get personally and directly involved in the process. We need to be able to provide specific positive contributions that address all sides of the issue at hand.

There are a ton of factors at play in issues such as this one about having 'too many' sprint events at the elite level. I agree that it would be good to have fewer sprint events at the World Cup and more middle and long events but we need to acknowledge the fact their is a need for higher visibility and media attention and that sprints is one good way to do that. I'm assuming that's the primary reason for hosting more sprints on the world cup circuit.

I'd like to see the athletes that have signed the "Petition to keep the soul of orienteering" come up with an alternate scenario that provides fewer sprint races on the world cup while at the same time providing that higher level of visibility and media attention so important to the sport as a whole.

It's for these reasons that as an elite orienteer I sit on my club's board of directors, I am the athletes' rep on the national level and sit on the high performance committee and Orienteering Canada board. I've also started getting involved with AthletesCAN, an advocacy group that represents Canadian national team athletes across all sports.

Bring your voice to the table not just your name on a piece of paper that someone else has written.

It's funny, when I watch sprints on TV, I actually find them less exciting than a well produced middle or long race (Trondheim comes to mind, although the athletes didn't like this much either!). No building of tension, over very quickly, tracking working poorly with buildings.

However, if you're actually there, there's something extra cool about sprints.

'we don't like this, can you change it for us in some way that we won't specify?'
+1

The dichotomy: on the one hand the IOF want Sprint and Forest to be different disciplines, on the other they run a World Cup which requires people to run both.

The first is coming true. As well as this "we don't like sprint" petition, some sprint specialists are just as cross at having to run in the forest.

It means the WC is becoming unsustainable. Maybe they should have had a
separate Forest World Cup and a Park World ...

You fill in the blank :)

Greame could you please stop calling this a "we don't like sprint' petition?
If you actualy read it then we say that we are not against sprint! We just want it to have a fair share in the world cup (Cup for worlds't most complete orienteer) So my suggestion 1/3 sprint 1/3 middle and 1/3th long!
And woc was good the way it was. Nobody asked for a sprintrelay!

I know that at the start of this petition there wasn't any goal to do something with it! Just sending a mail is not really going to change anything!
But meanwhile i gathered some information, I started mailing some people and at the moment i am trying to get in contact with Eva Jurenikova (she is in the atlethes commision and she already started a kind of petition) To see what we can do!

Obviously many people arent happy with wat is happening at the moment. So i think this petition can show that there are people who dislike the situation. Complaining with a big group is more efficient then complaining alone.

If you have any kind of idea that might help me, feel free to mail me or post it here. I am also encouraging people who actualy do something! But since a lot of people don't want to actualy do something, filling your name on a paper is pretty easy :)

For example on of the ideas i have to make forrest orienteering better, is to include live headcams. Who doesn't want to see a big mistake from a top-orienteer? And see how they handle the situation. In sprint you can also make mistakes but they are less epic :)

Toon, thank you for the updates. It's really nice to hear these thoughts and I'm glad that you seem to be approach this in a productive professional manner.

I agree that when done right forest orienteering in a middle or long race can be super exciting to watch, more so than sprint orienteering. I think the problem is that it is very challenging and involves a lot of technology and man-power to do because you have to get the information out of the forest and figure out which parts to show to people at which times. Again more so than with sprint orienteering.

I really like the idea of the headcam videos but I'm not sure the technology exists to live stream head cam videos from the forest several km away to the arena.
Since I think most of the problem is spectating vs. running the most fun and interesting races (ie middle and long in the best forest) how can we maximize both?

Chase starts are one successful way of doing that. Can we build on that? How about eliminating one or two people from the World Cup circuit at each of the last dozen races or so leading up to the World Cup final? This would make the last races fit into a short tv slot - something people have always wanted. It would also increase the stakes for the bottom half of the runners in the World Cup and make it more interesting to follow those bottom few runners.

There's probably a lot of problems with this that would have to be worked out... any other ideas?

Has anyone spoken with people involved in IOF decision-making about what is the best way to be heard? Or what is most influential?

@Toni
I must have got misled by the first line -
"Are you also fed up by the fact that IOF is making Sprint orienteering more important ..."
and I missed the point about the World Cup,., maybe that's because you didn't actually use the words "World" or "Cup" anywhere in the petition

The thing I find most annoying is that I probably agree with you (and I certainly agree with GG). I love classic 90 minute winning time races in the big wilderness (even if IOF thinks its not a proper distance for us M50s). That's why you'll find me chuntering around M21E in Belgium this Xmas.

But this kind of negative petition with no positive suggestions wont help the cause.

Even if nothing really happens with the petition.
I am sure IOF will have noticed and we atleast have send a signal to the world :)
But I am trying to do something possitive ;)

Edit: Welcome to Belgium btw :)

The third petition in two years.
Athletes voice becomes stronger and stronger. Can no longer be ignored or distorted.
Respect for the initiators and signatories

This petition may have a good cause, but it's just a bunch of emotional mumbo-jumbo without focus or direction. Until you added gg's quote, I had no idea what I was signing. After you added it, I'm still not sure. For example, I'm not against the Mixed Sprint Relay, but I'm definitely against that you can win the WC by only running sprints.

Here is a tip, create a well written letter that focuses on one particular issue (for example that the WC can be won by only running sprints), and propose a concrete alternative. Just need a few sentences. Keep it to the point and avoid all offensive language if you want anyone to look at it seriously. Now you''ll quadruple your signings (and I'll sign it too).

Then you can have a separate petition about banning the Mixed Sprint Relay and I will not sign that one.

@Toon
I have had same feeling as pi. Brush your text, make shorter, focus your goal on one or maybe two changes max if there is a connection.

Make clear what is the short-term and long-term goal. Who is your main counter part speaker, name it....IOF Council is to wide. Ask Elite orienteers who will speak in their name...What they will do in case of status quo? What kind of solution they want to propose for WC 2012, 2013?

Don't be content with the political answers. Ask direct questions and tell them that you want clear answers. I think people just want to help you and they don't want that you do same mistakes as others in the past. Listen to people but act as you think is the best.

OK Good ideas pi and Kofols :)
I shall start searching a top orienteer who wants to speak for the petition.(any ideas?)
I will focus on the world cup because that is what bothering people the most.
Thanks for the ideas :)

PS: You can't change a petition when people already signed :)

You have GG. Ask early adopters first. They are the most loyal to the cause......you need one who has time to work with you, to stay with you till the end.

You don't need to change it. You can make new cover page... and put the old text in the back or name it as a support text, beta text, whatever.....Be creative and find a solution or start at the beginning. You have a good cards.

Sorry, accept that your original petition is poorly written and useless. Don't send it to anyone, you will regret it. Start from scratch.

If you keep it as a supporting document to your new letter, then I still can't sign it.

PS: You can't change a petition when people already signed :)

Sure you can - you've already done it at least once. *rolls eyes*

Is anyone else amused by the hypocrisy of railing against the IOF for their lack of 'democracy', while simultaneously promoting a petition presented as if 'traditional' and/or elite orienteers' opinions are worth more than anyone else's?

It seems a little like marathon runners mounting a petition against the 100 metre events. This is not just an issue about opinions of sprint orienteering, but about the direction of the sport. Why not design a good survey instrument and try and get a reasonably representative set of responses from different sub groups in the sport. The focus of the survey should not be on preferences for running long or sprint events, but on the issues that are leading to the choices being made by the IOF.

A better (IMO :) ) analogy is test cricket vs limited overs vs Twenty20. Even though I'm too young to remember the birth of World Series, I'm sure there was (and probably still is) a lot of traditionalists wailing that the shorter versions of the game have destroyed the purity of the sport.

Thirty years later though, the entire sport is stronger for it and in ways they couldn't imagine in the late 70s - eg. the growth of Twenty20 in India to involve ludicrous amounts of money. As a result, ALL forms of the game are now more popular and there's an increased pool of players coming through the short versions who can, and are, becoming successful in test cricket.

Finally, the cricket World Cup is ...wait for it... a limited overs competition.

Juffy - do you really think that having half of India following Warnie's twitterings is a step forward? How many people on this site will understand your analogy?
;-)

I get it.

During the heyday of the PWT, one of the short forms of cricket round here was called Cricket Max. We decided that short form orienteering, after work, around the city, would fill a need for accessible competition along with community visibility. We evolved a varied race format that brings people back to the same parks year after year. The name we gave it: O-Max.

It's still going. We had #4 in a series of 6 last night.

Log - don't be like that. There's no reason why Americans and Brits won't know what cricket is just because they're terrible at it.

What the heck is overs?

Pi - Cricket is divided into overs (groups of 6 deliveries/balls which are delivered by the same bowler). At the end of an over, a different bowler bowls from the other end of the pitch.
Confused yet?

Oh. The thread got hijacked again. Sorry.

I agree with Juffy and Log in regards to the petition thing.

@Juffy
I agree. Opinions from anyone should have same importance. On the other hand it is good to see how many Elite orienteers already have signed the Petition. This give you a good understanding how important is this for runners who creates elite orienteering. Maybe we should expose also people who work for national federations, IOF ... if there are any among supporters....or to see a country list :-).

Maybe you should suggest how to fix this....so Toon could use a different word instead of "Important signers". After all this thread is all about direct democracy :-) Don't just say it is not good, make your own proposal.

It's not just the "important signers" thing though - the subdomain itself is called 'real-orienteers', like those silly sprint types aren't worthy of the dirt we brought back from our awesome bush meet last week. The attitude of the entire page/site is loaded towards traditional O like it's the French language and Thou Shalt Not Touch.

I think it's good to introduce new forms if it develops the sport. We ran our first urban relay earlier this year and it was Awesome!

There will always be people who do not "do" one form or another of orienteering, just because it is not catered for them/too far to travel/not what they're interested in doing. If adding an urban sprint relay to the the World Cup increases viewer interest and consequently attendance, good for it.

was this a hijack or am I somewhat on course?

Back to it though - does it really increase TV viewer attention? Really fun if you're there - a bit lacking if you're not and watching on the TV? Or are we just bad at producing it?

(I love both forms and don't really care, but I do find it interesting that sprint is always billed as spectator friendly when most of the time for me it's not. Relays kick ass in that respect though, both on TV and in person).

Relays are arguably the only 'head to head' racing orienteering has. Voila, from a spectator perspective easy to understand, easy to see the race and get excited - - - rather than long-winded individual timetrial format and constant references back to split time comparisons, time-checks, yawn...

The only? How about mass or chase start?

"Arguably"

I think a wide spread survey would be really interesting - if you could spread it to get thousands of people answering it - to really find out what people think about the future of orienteering. People could classify themselves as 'international', 'elite', 'hobby runner' and so on for some analysis within classes.

Or as "international, elite, hobby runner"

I am not in Sweden so I guess I am 'international'.

Surveying people about that they think about future will not answer the question what is going to happen in the future. When I was growing up I'd never foresee Sprint-O coming along and getting all this attention.

gg "I think a wide spread survey would be really interesting - if you could spread it to get thousands of people answering it - to really find out what people think about the future of orienteering. People could classify themselves as 'international', 'elite', 'hobby runner' and so on for some analysis within classes."


I think it's a great idea .... Especially as far as I know such a survey has never been achieved.
Orienteering and IOF would have only won

Survey of what?
If you want to know what people like doing, just put on some events and see if they show up? Opinions are only relevant in races where you don't let everyone in.

Anyway, supposing hypothetically someone was trying to make a forest race maximally spectator friendly without compromising the quality - how would you do it?

First 20 min prologue middle.

Then 50..60 min chase with the "8 map spreading" style of spreading, but with map exchange. Athletes would have to choose between 6 course options for the first half and 3 course options for the second half. They would get those 6 maps one minute before their start, at map exchange they would have to choose course they like on the fly. One challenging course loop, with route choice and tricky controls. GPS tracking, big screen at TC (cheap projector/some regular screens at first to make it less expensive), web GPS tracking for web spectators. Parallel spectator race. Should give about the same or better enviroment for spectating as big relays do. GPS tracking, head to head racing, forkings at almost every control (independed navigation aka no blind following), and for the way sprading method works spectators would not have to watch same legs over and over again, short prologue would spread atheltes a bit to spread dots a bit right from the start and to always give unique start arrangement every year, so something to speculate with, and to make it less likely runners running together would have same spreading. Unoffical non ranked non WRE non IOF event to make it possible to make it like that. No spectator legs other than finish chute. Maximum fun for both spectators and athletes, no need to do compromises with course or terrain quality. Make it annual and do it well every year. Figure a good name for the race. Rest of the O world including IOF will adopt it if you can make the concept fly.

No need to distortedly a sport just for show.
With a little imagination to find solutions.
  What did ndobbs is a one solution: semi open lands greater visibility and a higher performance.
Jagge proposing the same adds.

Filming from the air by remotely operated zeppelins allows taking spectacular images to a ridiculously low cost.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WE8HOPWg4Y0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G4cWKIctQSc

Orientation was born in the forest and not on asphalt pavers.

Surveys are all the time for ridiculous and unnecessary things everywhere, why not to make a survey and when it comes to the fate orientation??