Discussion: Rogaine name change

At this past weekend's racing event (rogaine) in the Black Hills, the subject of how awful the name "rogaining" is came up yet again.

I have sent a letter to Peter Goodwin suggesting that at least for the purposes of OUSA, the name be formally changed to adventure running. If you have an opinion on changing the name--pro or con--or have a different suggestion for a better name, then I encourage you to also contact Peter with your comments and suggestions. It's time to act.

This thread will be 50+ comments by the end of the weekend...

Adventure running seems like it is already affiliated with long-format point to point o in Canada (http://dontgetlost.ca/index.php?option=com_content...).

Minoxidiling?

Gentle nudge on hook, small taste, tempted to eat whilst I here, decides that rubbish in the mouth or in the bin is still rubbish, moved on, apparently there is a Medieval Rogaine to be held in Italy in the Tuscany Region near Siena in the town of San Gimignano www.rogaining.it , nothing to see here...

Many of us enjoy the sport without running. I would not be happy with a name change to Adventure running. At least with rogaining, people ask you what that sport is. They would assume they knew alla they needed to know about it with Adventure running as the name. A rogaine is not an 'adventure race'.

As I said before, "rogaine" and "rogaining" work pretty well in Eastern Europe, where most of the (re)growth occurred in the past decade. Rogaine sounds Anglo and adventurous. Not to say that (re)growth in Eastern Europe is preferred to (re)growth in the U.S. or Canada, but that's where most of IRF's paying customers are going to come from in the near future. However I translate "adventure running" into say Russian, I don't seem to get the same ring of a faraway adventure.

Running?!? Of the 6+ local Western Australian events each year with 250 - 500 participants each I estimate maybe 20 people would break into a jog at some point. tRicky excepted of course.

I'm 110% in favor of a name change. For the few (mini) rogaines I've done, I've always avoided using that term whenever someone asks me how I spent my weekend. And then inevitably the term still comes up and I spend more time explaining the dumb name rather than the activity itself.

I liked "Adventure Running" until Tooms pointed out that most rogaine participants (including me) aren't actually running. Also, that term emphasizes running rather than the map / navigation component that makes the activity unique.

I like these names that have been suggested in other threads: Navigation Racing, Map Racing.

BTW Tooms -- Swampfox and his partner swept all 49 controls at the Dakota Rogaine Championships last weekend, so he's one of those few who might've actually been running!

420 people entered for next weekends Western Australian event, given that normally only a handful of teams would stay out all night during a 24hr event and some of those will be away at the world rogaine champs and most other teams are recreational. I expect 99.5% of teams will not be running, especially since tRicky will be in admin and I've already run/driven (and tomorrow riden)most of the course.

Anyway I don't think Roger, Gail and the IRF president would take to kindly to you renaming their sport.

Over my dead, cold body!

And it is Rod, not Roger. :-)

I can't imagine that Rod, Gail and Neil would think of rogaining is "their" sport. They may have been central to the creation of the sport, but it has long since grown beyond belonging to a few select people.

I starting to think the bulk of those 50+ entries by weekend's end may well come from me alone :-)

If I were in charge of the rebrand, I'd change "orienteering" to "adventure running", and I'd change "rogaining" to "24-hour adventure running" or "endurance adventure running".

Do you have to run? Of course not. But the winners do. Do you have to run a marathon or a 5k? In many cases, you don't. But the winners do. "Run" is just a synonym for a competitive race while competing on foot. "Adventure Running" sure sounds a lot better than "Foot Orienteering." And "Adventure Running" would probably get us more web traffic from people already familar with trail running, mountain running, obstacle running, etc.

And I don't think that a bunch of Eastern Europeans in Eastern Europe, or the rogaining founders in Australia should matter much in what we want to call the sport in the US. The rest of the world calls soccer "football", and that doesn't prevent people from playing the sport in the US.

In the US, "rogaine" is just a bad name and it's very hard to market. Auto manufacturers routinely change the name of cars in different markets because of this. Rogaines in the US are like Chevy Novas in Mexico.

Orienteering is just as awkward a name. I spent a lot of my childhood trying to explain to school mates what it was I did on weekends and more often than not had to repeat myself and clearly enunciate the word.
Rogaine is a soild word and begs people to ask what it is, giving you the opening to talk it up.

Stop me now!!!

Rogaine is a soild word and begs people to ask what it is, giving you the opening to talk it up.

Ok, we're not talking about rebranding the name world-wide. Just in in the US. Rogaine has a much, much, more popular association in US, so when I've had to "talk it up" to people, I have to waste a couple of sentences saying that it has nothing to do with hair foams. I've been avoiding that term for years now when describing to friends, first calling them "[insert duration here] navigation races", and starting in 2011, "[insert duration here] adventure runs".

Race trekking?

Is Neil Phillips still IRF president? And therefore the only IRF president there has ever been...I suspect his incumbency may predate the hair restorer product :)

Neil does predate the product. Unfortunately, that doesn't mean anything now.

Fortunately, we're not in the position that Arcadia University used to be in.

Do you have to run? Of course not. But the winners do. Do you have to run a marathon or a 5k? In many cases, you don't. But the winners do.

Virtually everyone I talk to outside the top 10 teams in WA says the best thing about rogaining is that no one cares what the winners do - everyone else is just out there for fun.

(the top 10 teams tend to be out there for fun too, but they have a slightly twisted idea of it)

I think it would be a shame to lose that by making it less of a group outing and more of a race...but I get the impression the US rogaining culture is a lot different to ours.

Reading along, I think the point is that people in the US want to call it something else. But then, the yanks like to do things their own way. Here in Aus, if you say football, most people think of Aussie Rules, not the round ball game that we call Soccer. It hasn't hurt Association Football in Australia to call it Soccer and the rest of the world doesn't give two hoots.
However, and I know southerncross is probably reading this discussion, if the IRF were to consider awarding another world champs to a US group, then they would insist on it being referred to as Rogaining and that might cause some confusion and even jeopardise their chances of being awarded the event if they refused to call it a Rogaine.

Mr R the body that runs the round ball game in Australia is the Football Federation of Australia.

Since Orienteering USA runs rogaining in the US, you would think they would want to call it 'Long Distance Orienteering' or 'Marathon Orienteering'.

'Adventure Running' would be easily confused with Adventure Racing, which is entirely different.

Good point Simmo. Which begs the question - when is the USA going to have a seperate and independant Rogaine Association?

Based on this video, I'm afraid that "running" would be considered false advertising.

Linear Ice is close to what I was thinking... If the name needs to be 'descriptive' then think cross country hiking day and night. Good luck USA rogainers - try redesigning the logo next ;-)

That video, was accompanied by a very nice blog post. Savy marketers might read such posts to get some good beta. Don't worry so much about misinformation. These newbies seemed to like the experience. So what aspects of the event popped out at them and got them inspired? Those might be the kind of things to emphasize in the promotions...

Big Muddy Race Story

Whenever I have call to mention it to someone outside of our little cult, I just refer to it as "24-hour orienteering".

Change the name (in the US). I use "endurance navigation run" or "adventure run", both much more enlightening descriptions than "rogaining". By the time you explain rogaine, the sound bite is over and attention span elsewhere.

How about something like....

Adventure Run 12.0
Adventure Run 24.0
as per the new Half Ironman rebranding (Ironman 70.3)

I'd be happy to assist with a Nor-AM Adventure Run 24.0 Series (or equivalent) re-branding exercise. Pinks Socks and I have already shared some ideas.

@Jennnycas I think I am still an IRF VP - no one ever told I was not and I have yet to see an election :-)

@Mr R Football in NSW and QLD is not Aussie Rules but Rogaining is Rogaining

I struggle to see how renaming (USA) rogaining to "Adventure Running 24.0" makes it easier to explain...
Well, it's orienteering over 24 hours but you get the checkpoints in any order.
Er, checkpoints are the places you have to go to and are worth points.
Adventure - hmm, yes well that was a trendy term in the early 21st century meaning essentially 'off road'
Orienteering is - oh, is my time up?

Don't confuse explaining to catching the interest of somebody. North America is once again going through a running boom.

People know what running is. They don't know what rogaining is. They might know what orienteering is.

It makes so much sense to be aligned with an activity that people understand and also just so happens to be booming. The surge in obstacle running also shows that runners are looking for extra challenges or even adventure.

This is the text of the letter I sent to President of OUSA Peter Goodwin:

Hi Peter,

It looks like USOF has made the transition over to OUSA fairly successfully, and I have another name change to suggest: banishing (as much as possible) "rogaine" and "rogaining" and going with "adventure run" and "adventure running" instead.

This came up once again (as it has so many other times) this past weekend at the (rogaine) event held in the Black Hills of South Dakota.

Personally, I don't know of anyone in this country--though I will admit my sample size is far from exhaustive--who likes this name or who thinks it works well. Maybe it works well in some other countries, and, if so, fine for them, but that doesn't mean we can't choose something different here. Here, it's *not* a good name. It verges on awful and it does nothing to advance any aim or purpose of OUSA. In fact, I will argue it is actually counterproductive.

A couple of points:

1) If we were starting this particular variation on navigation running from scratch today, what are the chances the name "rogaine" would be the one chosen? Right--zero.

2) There is nothing whatsoever about the name that gives even the slightest hint of what the sport is about. To the contrary, if you're trying to explain it to anyone for the first time--whether you're talking to land owners for land use permission, encouraging folks to try it, potential sponsors, etc.--the *first* thing you have to do is explain it has nothing to do with medications or balding. That's not really, truly a great first impression.

3) There is no chance you would find any marketing professional who would recommend the use of this name for any purpose of marketing, promotion, sales, or branding. Just try to find one and prove me wrong.

4) There's no downside to changing names. This could always be changed back, were it absolutely necessary.

There may be other names as good or better than adventure running; I do not claim otherwise. I make the suggestion for adventure running here so as to be able to offer a (much, much) better alternative to rogaining.

I further suggest that this be moved to action--i.e., a BOD vote--quickly, and not be subjected to endless amounts of debate. To me, and the folks I know, it's pretty drop dead obvious. If a vote is taken and it were to pass by a large margin, that would confirm the thinking here. If a vote doesn't succeed, then--ha!--I'm wrong. ; )

Best regards,
Mikell Platt

re point (2), this has been discussed exhaustively on AP before, with great comments from tRicky from recollection. The same could apply to sports such as tennis, cricket, hockey, squash, badminton... they seem to be doing ok. Perhaps it's more a case of rogaining being a particularly minor sport - and so "iNavigation Trek 24.0/12.0" would what you're after?

Admittedly, you are starting with what is a new or novel sport for the USA market and different times and lack of history / tradition call for a different approach. In Western Australia, there are highly likely far more people who have at least participated in an organised rogaine than their are in organised orienteering (excluding all the orienteering Schools programmes of course!). I can't speak for the other Aussie states as I think their climate and terrain seems to be less popular for rogaining. (i.e. rainy and steeper).

Perhaps a more appropriate name for our eastern states is Goraining?

I agree with the comments of southerncross. I should have followed his lead. Knock yourselves out guys.

The same could apply to sports such as tennis, cricket, hockey, squash, badminton... they seem to be doing ok.

That's because a) they actually have a following and b) if you played a word association game with those sport names you would never, ever get "Minoxidil" as the response.

I 100% agree with changing the name rogaine in the US. However, I think "adventure running" is a great term to encompass the entire orienteering/rogaining family, especially orienteering (not just rogaining).

Ultra navigation.

That's more like it...if there is a name change then surely you would want it to reflect the primary verb?

...eating?

Can't help myself. That would mean changing orienteering to "Over analysing" :-)

Before Rod, Neil and Gail put their name to it, what is now rogaining was known as the Melbourne University Mountaineering Club (MUMC) 24 Hour Walk.

In the first book Rogaining Cross-Country Navigation by Neil & Rod Philips published in 1982 Chapter 2 gives the history of the name

1947 - 1960s - MUMC 24 hour walk
1964 - 1970 - Intervarsity Mountaineering
1971 - 1979 -24 Hour Orienteering
1979 -1980 - 24 hour Orienteering/Rogaining
1981 - Present - Rogaining

In NZ they have"Twalks" (Twenty four hour walks) now that is a good name, especially when spoken with a Kiwi accent. Twalk like the MUMC 24 Hour walk predates the term Rogaine -

http://www.cutc.org.nz/twalk/

Fortunately the English language moves on and Twalk like Rogaine has multiple meanings which Google can find such as a Aggregate Twitter conversations,

Aussie Rules Orienteering.

ARO - that works!

call it a Land Navigation Challenge, Adventure Race.

That's because a) they actually have a following and b) if you played a word association game with those sport names you would never, ever get "Minoxidil" as the response.

Did they have a following when they first commenced though? Did some Yank pipe up and say "Hey why are we calling these sports by that name? The word means nothing! Let's have a vote and change them to:
Tennis: Ball Hitting
Cricket: Ball Hitting
Hockey: Ball Hitting
Squash: Ball Hitting
Badminton: Cock Hitting
People will then know what each sport refers to."

Swampfox's letter is well written. One thing to add to add to it. I doubt the suggestion to change a name is out of disrespect for the format, the rules, etc. but rather as a way to INCREASE participation, quality events, funds, etc. I would hope we could all agree that we would like to see that. When my club introduced the program Adventure Running Kids we didn't name it that way to piss off orienteers but did it because at the end of the day we wanted to have more kids orienteering, trail running, etc. I'm pretty certain that "Rogaine Kids" would not have resulted in our junior program increasing by ~300 kids in 2 years. ;-)

I agree with Cristina that "Adventure running" is much better as a term for the overall set of navigation running sports than for just one subset. For Rogaining I like the use of the word "Trek" and would go with "Adventure Trek", "Navigation Trek", or "Map Trek"

@tRicky I grew up watching commercials like this one. Even as an orienteer and someone who has competed in a couple rogaines, I cringe when I hear the word rogaine used to describe a sporting event. It's a quirky name with a fun history and there's nothing inherently wrong with it being nondescriptive, but it's too late for it to work in the US.

(as an aside, I'm pretty sure all the listed sport names have some etymological connection to the game itself, unlike rogaine)

My thinking is mostly the same as Clare's, with a few notes...

* Map something and navigation something may be worse than making up a random word without preexisting association. Like Hammer said, there's a running (mini-)boom, not a map boom nor a navigation boom. The people you are trying to attract are runners, they aren't mappers nor (yet) navigators.

* Minoxidil will be around for a while, but is now a generic. With generics, brand names tend not to hang around long. Rogaining, the sport, will be around much longer than Rogaine the brand, no matter what you call it.

Someone in the UK 30+ years ago came up with the Compass Sport name and that works for me

"Ultra Nav" sounds cool, and I really want to be cool.

Sucking at "Ultra Nav" would be way cooler than sucking at Rogaine.

I bet there are a few compassers around, but certainly not enough to pay the park permit fees around here.

In the minds of most US runners, when they hear the name Adventure Racing or Adventure Running, they are thinking of these bizarre Mud Runs or Warrior Dashes, etc., which tend to be obstacle courses 3-5K in length with artificial mud pits to run through, barbed wire structures to cross, sometimes high-voltage knobs to touch, etc. I first became aware of this when tuning to an NPR program called something like "What's My Game" while en route to an orienteering event this spring, and being told at the beginning of the program that the day's topic was going to be Adventure Racing. Quite a shock that it bore no resemblance to the Adventure Racing I was aware of! Since then, I have seen lots of references on a local running listserver from people who are going to an "Adventure Run" and looking to ride share, and it is always one of these shorter runs with additional inflicted pain and obstruction that is being referred to. I think the time has passed for something with Adventure in its name to immediately convey the sense of off-trail navigation to anyone new to the sport. I think that on a world-wide basis, a lot of effort has been devoted to developing some sort of awareness of the Rogaine name, and shows some success. It would be a rare one of our club's annual rogaines that doesn't have at least some (new) participants who have specifically been looking for a rogaine event to take part in. I see no need to change the name. It is mostly a few balding men in Swampfox's general age group that remember the frivolous jokes that were abundant when the hair restoration product with (in only the US) the same name as our sport was first introduced. Subsequently we have gone through even more amusing drugs, such as Viagra, to occupy our comedians, and I suspect that most of the younger generation that we should be hoping to attract is not even aware of the existence of the Rogaine drug.

"Race Trekking" sounds cool too.

Why exactly does Rogaine sound cool in Eastern Europe?

As a US guy, I viewed too many hair restoration advertisments in the 80's so the word is just sullied.

Putting things in perspective...

Rogaine (the brand) is about 30 years old. The patent expired, generics are available.

Rogaining (the sport) is over 40 years old.

Tough Mudder (the event and the brand) is 2 years old. Mudders (in plural) are a year younger. The use of "adventure" in connection with obstacle courses has about the same timeframe.

Adventure racing (the sport) is about 15 years old.

Orienteering (the sport and the brand) is 120+ years old, and still misunderstood in the U.S. and other English-speaking countries.

adventure run - In my country this could be heard as non-competitive activity, ie fun activity like "treasure hunt" where time is not important. In most cases word "adventure" is used in connection with AR competitions and most of the people understand this word as a combination of different activities (sports) not just one: orienteering or running or hiking or trekking or trail running.

To some extent I like the suggestions: "race trekking", "cross country hiking", "adventure Trek", "navigation Trek", "map Trek".

I would use cross country + something else to define (rugged terrain, navigation and endurance) because all people understand what cross country means (running + terrain). Maybe cross country trek.

Yet another thought...

... it isn't like there is Muddering USA or International Muddering Federation, yet there are hundreds of thousands of participants with $MM of revenue. Event organizers are free to call their events whatever catchy name you can come up with! A rogaine under any other name is still a rogaine (if it follows the rules). The Rogaining Committee of Orienteering USA will be happy to see what works and what doesn't... just keep putting them on!

Someone in the UK 30+ years ago came up with the Compass Sport name and that works for me

Or we could call it, "Boring Sport", "Computation Sport", or "Numbingly Uninteresting Spoon Eye Gouging Sport".

The problem with the word "orienteering" isn't so much the word itself, it's that many people think they know what it is (boring compass + pace count in Scouts). "Compass Sport" isn't an improvement.

Anyway, this thread is supposed to be about the word Rogaine, which probably isn't going to be replaced with Compass Sport in the US anytime soon.

Also, this thread is here just to see how riled up people get, right?

May be we could change the word orienteering just a little to make it different. Add or remove a few letters somewhere near the end.

I prefer a memorable short evocative word than a descriptive phrase. I assume this is why Rogaine was chosen in the first place. It's how language works generally.

I like the name Trex, because it evokes "trek", and also T. Rex. Something built around the root "nav" would probably be ok too.

O-USA would have to be sure to trademark it to fend off future competing products.

This is so silly! Someone put on an event with a cool name that gets a lot of people, at least 500. Then we have a name.

Anyone want to put on an event called "24 Hour Mudder"

I am not sure this is about large events only but about quality organic growth as well. :)

Orienteerics, anyone?

Pink Socks I was going to bet you a fancy beer that this thread would be 50+ comments by Friday, and before the end of the weekend.

Is there anything preventing individual clubs from continueing to call their events Rogaines whilst your national federation uses a different term? Not ideal, but might be a start. Often these threads do not acknowledge that many involved in North American Orienteering want to stay with the status quo.

Not to muddy the waters further but Rogaine (with most of the letters lower case) is a trademarked product name in North America.
The name of the sport is an acronym with a couple of reputed origins. As an acronym each letter should be upper case like so: ROGAINE.
It is a testament to how small the sport ROGAINE is that the makers of Rogaine have not sent a cease and desist letter to somebody.

@Nev... yeah, I completely undervalued this one...

I totally agree with Backstreet!!! That is the most organic, and probably best way to effect change.

If you name an event well, and do some things to make that event stick in peoples mind, then people will adopt the new name. You might be surprised. I know I was, when I branded a few "mini-rogaines/ultra-long-team-score-o's" as simply "Scrambles." I was hoping the format would catch on, but the name caught on even faster. (It had a boost, due to the prexisiting Street Scramble (TM) race series). All of a sudden, people around here are referring to mini-rogaines and score-o's a "Scrambles" the same way that people call tissues Kleenex.

...and a short evocative word -- CC Trek.
but sound to me also as a cocktail or stepper machine for women. -:)

OT: I've seen men on stepper machines. Why restrict them to women?

Yes, that sounds like something a "nationalist" would do.

@blegg: Did you have permission from the trademark owners to call them Scrambles? When I first started the 'Hood Hunts in 2010, I originally planned on calling them Mini Scrambles, but I was asked to come up with another name.

@everyone in Australia: As Hammer said, this isn't about disrespecting the history or format of the event, but it's a way to get more people interested. "Rogaine" just isn't a good word for the event here in the USA. What if the sport were invented by Bob & Megan in the USA, and events were called "Bogans"?

---

"Adventure Running" does have some history with orienteering-related activities in the USA. CascadeOC had an "adventure run" back in 2002. The area in North America showing the fastest growth in navigation-based sports is calling it "Adventure Running".

Even the Road Runner Sports "Adventure Runs", while not using ISOM/ISSOM maps, are navigation and checkpoint-based events in the city, and are pretty popular in certain regions.

As mentioned above, the words "orienteering", "compass", and "navigation" all have stigmas with them. "Adventure" is such a good euphemism for this, and we should take ownership of it, because we do have some, at least, historical connection with it. Also, it seems like the newfangled Warrior Dashes and Tough Mudders are going under the "mud run" label, and not "adventure run".

Here are the Google Trends.

We're also not renaming the international standard. We're just looking for a more marketable term here in North America. I think Adventure Running is that term, and ARK and RRS are proving that.

There are a lot of web hits for "adventure trek", but not many for "adventure trex", which is what Vlad is calling his upcoming event. I'd prefer trex over trek. I still prefer 24-Hour Adventure Running or Ultra Adventure Running (which would give us a connection to ultra running). Hammer's suggestion of Adventure Running 24.0 makes me think too much of a specified distance, instead of a time limit, but that's a quibble.

I don't see the problem with the use of the word "running". Yeah, not everyone is actually running, but it's easy way of saying a timed race on foot. Does everyone actually run at a trail run, fun run, or mud run? If you're going to be that picky about phrasing, is your refrigerator running? If so, you'd better go catch it!

Re Trex—be my guest (actually Backstreet Boy's). We were looking for a non-rogaine word for a mountain marathon, which is a different format from a rogaine. Hence Trex, which is kinda plural; there are two races with two starts and finishes. I don't think we are into trademarking until/unless we get indeed say 500 people. If you get 500 people before us, feel free to trademark. Heck, if you organize a rogaine and get more than 200 people in the 24 hour category, you should probably be entitled to the post of O USA's Namemaker General. As long as we're here, if um you organize a rogaine, period, ... [the Trex is yet to happen because, well, see number of people].

OT: If your event t-shirt doesn't have a T. Rex, I'm going to be really sad.

Discovery race? Not that I care.

What if the sport were invented by Bob & Megan in the USA, and events were called "Bogans"?

Pink Socks just became my hero

Active.com has created a new category called "Mob Events" where they put Mud Runs, Obstacle Runs, etc. Adventure Races are in this category as well.

http://www.active.com/mud-runs-obstacle-races-beer...

"Mob Events"

Hmm, it looks like Bob & Megan could take credit for that one, too.

Ultrekathon

... Endurance Orienteering ...

agree that 24.0 likely will be thought of as distance.

24 hour ultra orienteering also works.

rob, Otis and Susan = ?

The name of the sport is an acronym with a couple of reputed origins. As an acronym each letter should be upper case like so: ROGAINE.

Ummm... no. Rogaine is a contraction with one origin, and one lame-ass backronym that makes the whole sport sound like a cub scout activity.

Navigation Race.

@ Pink_socks. I did ask permission before I used the name scramble for my first event.

At the time (about 3 years ago), Eric said he wasn't too concerned. His comment was that "Street Scramble" was the trademark, and he would protect that from trademark infringements, but that he wasn't particularly concerned about forest scrambles. I got the impression he might be more concerned if it were an urban event that directly competed.

As I mentioned, I never really expected the name to catch hold the way it did. (It was originally just going to be a one-off event). So perhaps that experience convinced him to be more cautious in handing out permission. He may also be extra protective now, since he is licensing Street Scramble as a franchise.

So far, I don't think it's been detrimental in the Bay Area. Vlad (GetLost) is currently licensing Street Scramble in the Bay Area, and he is one of the strongest supporters of our Wilderness Scramble Series. BAOC is only focusing on wilderness events, so GetLost and BAOC have been doing a fair amount of series coordination and cross-promotion. So far it has been mutually beneficial.

Still, I do want to be careful about not infringing on Mergeo's trademark. I make sure that whenever Street Scramble gets mentioned, we give a link back to Mergeo or GetLost, and I'm trying to be vigilant to make sure BAOC doesn't start using the name for urban events. This is something I'm afraid may get out of my control.

I should say though, that I didn't actually choose the name scramble because of the Street Scramble. The name had been fermenting in my mind before I had ever heard of Street Scrambles. The first time I saw the word connected with a race was about 10 years ago, and it was actually an X-terra style event. I liked the word for its dual definitions:
1) Mountaineering definition. "Climbing with hands and feet through steep, rough terrain".
2) General definition. "To struggle or race for something. Somewhat chaotically"

Put these together, and you couldn't have a better word to describe a Bay-Area score-O.

RE: TREX. I like it as a race title. But I don't see any need to replace the name Mountain Marathon. I think that's a fantastic phrase, and I still daydream sometimes about organizing a 'Trans Sierra Mountain Marathon."

Enduro is already taken by the motosports. Can you believe it?

Well, it's not really a marathon, and it's not in the mountains. And I'd rather not create an impression with permitting agencies that this event is like an ultra run in terms of support, meaning a multitude of aid stations with vehicular access.

What kind of California venue doesn't have mountains?

In California, mountains are the ones bordering Nevada. The ones by San José are hills.

I agree that the name "rogaine" should be replaced. Just googling "rogaine" and not finding what we're talking about should be reason enough (from a marketing perspective, which is what we're talking about).

I do use the term "adventure running" when talking casually to others, because it's the only phrase I've used that's piqued interest instead of glazing eyes.

However, I think that the term "adventure" is now too broad and watered down a term.

I think we should not be afraid to use a very specific, unique term. "Ironman" has been so successful in branding that when I told someone I had done triathlons, he kept calling it "Ironman" even though I had never used the word.

What do the successful names have in common? There is an adjective that makes you sound like a bad ass.

IRON man.
TOUGH mudder.
WARRIOR dash.

Note the first two describe the PERSON doing the event. The easiest of the 3, WD, describes the action also. Dash sounds young and friendly, to counter the Warrior, making the whole thing sound goofy, which it is.

Or, linked with tradition.
TRIathlon, derived from MARAthon.

It is annoying that my co-workers think it's really impressive when I do an adventure race, but are totally disinterested when I orienteer or rogaine-- even though I find the latter 2 to require a higher level of a specific skill, thus more impressive. (sorry, AR's- but the nav in the AR's I have done is simplified. Yes, I am sure there are harder AR's out there that are very, very hard and very very impressive).

That said, the best I can come up with is Ultra Nav to replace Rogaine. But I think a better name could be made.

@j-man
It is more like a product name. It is more like a phrase. You sound that you like to exaggerate and this sounds exactly what a "nationalist" would do.
Can you live with that otherwise report to youtube. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19QnbrSpEN8.

-- We have a linguistic misunderstanding all the time so from now on I will understand your comments as exaggerations.--

PAJAMA compass.

I attack your point.

I think Mountain Marathon is more orogenous than pajama compass.

Orienteering = Terrain or Off-road NavRacing:


Sprint = Sprint NavRace? SprintNav Racing?
Middle = TechNav 30?
Long = NavRace Classic?
Rogaine = Ultra NavRacing 12/24?

We already rebranded sprint orienteering to NavDash and it worked well for a while.

Back 1998 mind you tRicky, before Sprint even existed!

Back in 1998 it was more about a bunch of people who should know better running the U12's course as fast as they could though...

Really, what we need is a legitimate branding consultant. We're so far inside the loop that we don't know what's best for those outside the loop.

Exactly--Socks is right.

I will take on your job for a fee of $500k.

I remain skeptical that a name change will impact attendance whatsoever, unless it is accompanied by some significant investment of time and money to advertise and promote the product.

Navigation Race. It's a timed event that involves navigation. End of story. If the prefect term that captured all the various variations and scenarios existed, we'd be using it already. And it doesn't necessarily have to capture all possible variations of the sport. Think of 'street hockey' - might be two teams of 6 playing a semi-formal game, might be a tournament of many teams, might be on the road, might be on a outdoor basketball court, might be on roller skates or not, might just be me and my brother taking shots on each other, might be 4 guys playing it 'half-court'. If a co-worker asks what you did on the weekend and you say street hockey he knows basically what you mean, and may or may not care about the details. Likewise with navigation race. It doesn't matter that navigation race arguably includes 'standard orienteering' (overlap); that's just details. This term would capture any variation of rogaine in terms of time (6 hr; 12 hr etc) and location - wilderness, rural, mountain.

Maybe the problem is not the name, but the product. The universe of people who would be attracted to and become passionate about Rogaining is small. So let's keep the name and enjoy what we've got.

Let's get real peoples. We're not embracing who we are. By all means, this is an...

Ultranerd 24!

Geoman +1 - the name is established and accepted in most of the navigation sports world beyond the US. Sure, I hate having to explain the dis-association with minoxodil, but it is what it is, lets just go with it....

I give up. Pat-thetic needs to find a new hero.

Maybe the problem is not the name, but the product

Exactly.

This morning a bunch of folks in my social outdoor circle went to a Color Me Rad 5K, each spending $40 for what I consider a simulation of a festival in India called Holi. They all went prepared with "must be white" shirts, bandanas, and Wayfarer Rayban glasses. Of course, photo cameras. And immediately, it's all on Facebook. Follow-ups later in the day about which color didn't come off during the shower. It's evening now, and there is lots of social media exchange among all the involved parties, again, about which color is really stubborn and not coming off. Pictures of people drinking craft beer while donning colorful hair and stained clothing. Some folks signed up after they learned that some of their friends were signed up. It then snowballed, getting more and more people signed up. There is something going on in the social psychology of individuals in a connected group: here: one comment I heard was "annual membership at [local outdoor club] is twenty bucks, and it's good for all year, but I'll rather spend twice that much for only this day of this fun".

Maybe someone of this "mob" mass events will create a rogaine-like event in which the electronic control visited by a participant will send a radio signal to a twitter-like system that automatically triggers interest among friends, who will verge into participating real-time and become participants while the event is still in its long-duration progress. Attendance growing as the event progresses. With a party at the end. And yes, participants would be allowed to communicate to each other, maybe establishing meeting points to socially exchange thoughts, have a snack, take some photos, post them real-time to some social network media, and continue-construct-realize the experience of an outdoor event in social context.

btw, one last comment on this naming attempt, broadcasted to the crowd, hopeful that from crowdsourcing, something would germinate out by weekend's end: it is a very similar process to naming of Hashers. The highest decibel reading of the applause-o-meter decides the name.

Just to be a stickler:

TRIathlon, derived from MARAthon.

Nope. "Marathon" is a place name, the site of a battle about 26 miles from Athens. "Triathlon" takes its name by analogy to several competions with names like "decathlon", derived from "deca-" (ten), and "-athl-" (athletic). So a triathlon is three athletic events rolled into one.

Meanwhile, how about "Very Intense Adventure Group Running Activity"? Or "Compass Intensive Adventure, Long, Insufficient Sleep"?

While I have been traveling, this thread has expanded. From my point of view, I think that the name Rogaine is difficult to explain and generally has weird questions asked about it. I believe that if people want to change the name, that motion should come from the Rogaine committee. The board is not expert in this area. Our wish is to help further this kind of event and I will wager that the whole board will listen. We could make a decision in October if the committee makes the request. If the board were to make the decision, it might be "Irontough warriorman mudderdash" in an attempt to please everyone but I don't think that would help to further the sport.

There is so much pessimism out there about what can and can't work. All the time, people tell me "you can't use that word, it might..." and "you should avoid that word it will..." Danggit people, grow some spine and be proud of what you do.

Pit two words against each other. One word is terribly geeky and obscure. One word is trendy and powerful. Which will people react stronger to?

If the geeky word is spoken with strength and confidence, and the trendy word is spoken with timidity, it doesn't matter. People will react more strongly to the word spoken with confidence.

J-J +2

The whole sport is difficult to explain and has weird questions asked about it. Why should the name be any different?

Hear Hear tRicky -

tRicky is on the money..

"unless it is accompanied by some significant investment of time and money to advertise and promote the product."

Who is your target group: only orienteers, mostly runners or you want to have mix of both groups? One of the best option (at least for me) is to organize a trail running event or trekking in combination with one special course (orienteering). In this way your organizer's focus is on pure runners first (the largest group). Mountain - trail - runners can get a few impressions about orienteering, equipment and have a chance to see others in action on more challenging course. Pure runners normally don't want to orient, they want to have a simple orienteering on paths to enjoy the course. After some events only cca. 10% of trekkers - runners try also real orienteering and others stay with trekking. They don't come back because of a name Trekking but because courses and difficulty of map reading is adjusted to runners. In most cases organizers of Trekking events don't organize orienteering events but some organizers of orienteering events also organize Trekking events.

So, what is the name of the activity (orienteering, O-marathon, rogaine, etc) is not very important to most of our orienteers but you need to use a very well recognizable name if you want to attrack runners and to get their attention. You must promote it in a way that they get the feeling that they are invited. So whole promotion and organization of the event: name of the event, invitation, difficulty of the courses must be tailored to them. Event with only rogaine or orienteering courses doesn't have long life among runners no matter how trendy name you could find.

My perception is that organizers should use one of the well acceptable local/regional name (term) which most of runners know and are familiar with it and then make some variations of this term to explain the novelty. My additional two variations: Cross country express or Trekking express. It sounds to me very trendy and powerful. Event which is delivering trekking and rogaine (orienteering) courses in same time.

Sherpes may be on to something. How about adding competitors' twitter names to the database and setting up auto-tweets when they finish - @sherpes just finished orienteering race at Blue Mtn in 47:53, currently 3/12?

Long Epic Very Intense Topographic Running Adventure.

twentyfourhours dot org and twenty4hours dot org are unclaimed domains.

"How far can YOU go in 24 hours?"

Then twentyfourhours(dot)org/three or eight or whatever for the shorter versions...

Quite simply,

24 Hour Adventure

So when was Rogaine (the drug) last advertised in the USA or Nth America and who are you trying to attract to the sport, oldies or the young?

I can see why you might have an issue just as we (in Australia) would should it be called something like "Anusol" but surely it is a diminishing reference. Let's face it, kids today aren't terribly interested in info from the past since they have to do so many facebook posts, tweets and sms's. Ever hear the phrase "a picture is worth a thousand words"? Surely some decent images (still or moving) could do more than a name change.

Are our sports ever going to be more attractive to the wider community or will they always only be attractive to a smaller percentage of the population? Do we need a reality check or am I just too negative? Just because our sport(s) are fantastic doesn't mean everybody is going to feel the same way. I bet I could put up a dozen of my favourite movies and most of you would say they were crap.

Personally I don't give a toss what my sport is called, that's not why I chose to do it. I participate because I love the sport. If others cant get past the name then I'm not that interested in them becoming part of it.

> What if the sport were invented by Bob & Megan in the USA, and events were called "Bogans"?
Not a bad idea. I'll take second ticket in the fan club.

Are our sports ever going to be more attractive to the wider community or will they always only be attractive to a smaller percentage of the population?

I think rogaining can have appeal to the wider community, and it has nothing to do with the name - what is really important is de-emphasising the concept of it being a race. WA has 4 conventional rogaines a year at which we get 350+ people, plus a few smaller 4-6 hour events which drag in ~200. A fair whack of them are novices or relative newcomers, and only about 20 people at any event give a toss who wins. Of 150 teams at an average event, less than 10 will get within 50% of the winner's score.

If you focus on the ultra-marathoners, call it a race and talk about clearing the course you WILL scare off 90% of your market. Encourage people to do what they can. Have prizes or badges for getting 500 points (on a 5000pt event). Make a big deal out of getting 1000 points. Read all the results out, starting from the bottom. Advertise if you have to. Bring a friend, even if said friend isn't as fit as you. Set easy controls close to the start.

Get your mechanics right so the event is attractive to newcomers, and the newcomers will want to come regardless of what the damn thing's called.

Er, checkpoints are the places you have to go to and are worth points.

At an inaugural event of a trail running company today (inaugural at this particular venue; the company has been around for a long time), I was pleasantly surprised to see signs that said "CHECKPOINT" instead of "AID STATION". I started late and wasn't sure if the course markings were still correct/existing. A hiker called out, "Hey your checkpoint is over that a-way." "You mean aid station?" "The sign says, checkpoint!" I take out of this that the knowledge that a checkpoint as a place where you have to check in while on the course is perceived to be pretty universal.

Going back to the rogaine thing... most of the first-page-Google returns for "rogaine" actually talk about minoxidil. Some only talk about minoxidil, and don't mention ROGAINE®. And it looks like the trademark is all-caps now, maybe because "they" found out there is this other meaning? The IRF and Orienteering USA are careful to never capitalize any part of rogaine, rogaining (unless prompted by English grammar, for example when starting a sentence). Just like marathon, triathlon, luge, etc.

So it seems that indeed the perception of confusion as something to worry about may be confined to males over a certain age... who remember what used to be... rogaine the sport is the future. ROGAINE® will ease into the past.

I agree with tRicky and now Juffy. What is the world coming to???

Take a look at the soon to be upgraded/transferred to Joomla IRF web site http://new.rogaining.org/ and have a look at http://wayback.archive.org/web/*/http://rogaining.... . Artwork and template upgrade to follow however content has been the concern.

I would contribute that the label - rogaine - is neither perfect nor imperfect it is the description you give to the game.

For me the key and joy of the game comes from these words "...cross-country navigation...' all else are add ons, that is what we should promote imho.

Consider these words from the web site:

"What is Rogaining?

Rogaining is the sport of long distance cross-country navigation. The championship rogaine is of 24 hours duration but there are several shorter variants. Teamwork, endurance, competition and an appreciation of the natural environment are features of the sport. Rogaining involves both route planning and navigation between checkpoints using a variety of map types.
Rogaines are generally day and night events in which teams of two to five members travel entirely on foot, navigating by map and compass. Teams select their own order of visiting checkpoints in terrain that varies from open countryside to hilly forest.

A central base camp provides hot meals and teams may return at any time to eat, rest or enjoy the fellowship. Teams travel at their own pace, and anyone from children to grandparents can experience the personal satisfaction that comes from cross-country navigation at individual levels of competition and comfort. "

more detail

"What is Rogaining? - More detail

Several hundred people milling around me. Suddenly a voice booms out: "You have 24 hours from … NOW. Good luck". And we were off. At least everyone else was off, scattering in all directions. Within two minutes we were alone - myself, Manuel and Sue - and our maps. Our first rogaine. My previous experience walking on tracks somehow seemed inadequate. "Need some help?" It was the event co-ordinator. She spent fifteen minutes helping us choose a route that would get us back in time for a hot dinner and we set off. I have never looked back!'

The author of that paragraph has now completed thirty rogaines and been part of the extraordinary growth of the sport. Within twenty years of the first rogaine at Melbourne, Australia, events were being held around the world and regularly attracting several hundred competitors. This popularity stems from the emphasis on participation rather than just competition, the sense of challenge and the opportunity to experience the outdoor life. Teams travel at their own pace and everyone from children to grandparents can experience the satisfaction of navigating by map and compass between checkpoints knowing that someone else has vetted the course, obtained permission from landowners, produced a map and provided meals and rest areas. Teams choose their own route and all teams finish at the same time, so there is no feeling of being left behind. It is a great way to spend a weekend.

Some teams rogaine competitively and championship rogaines are run regularly. For the fastest teams, rogaining demands first class navigation both day and night in all terrain along with sustained physical and mental endurance. Yet competitive rogaining is secondary to the primary philosophy of participation. Many rogainers have little interest in speed and find the sport provides opportunities to spend a day or weekend in pleasant company, in empathy with the outdoors and with whatever self-set challenges suit them. Novice participation is actively encouraged and all rogaining events are designed to be suitable for beginners.

A key factor in this broad appeal is that all participants start and finish at the same time. Unlike a long distance run where slow runners arrive to find everyone is packing up, slower rogainers often spend the last hours at the finish, enjoying the spectacle of competitive teams racing in at the last minute. Non-competitive teams may have chosen to sleep for most of the night in warm sleeping bags at the camp area before finding more checkpoints the next day.

Expert, novice or family group, one aspect unites all rogainers, namely the satisfaction of being able to navigate in rural and forest environments.
back



Copyright 2002 International Rogaining Federation Inc. All rights reserved. "

BTW why is there no North American Rogaine Championship this year?
because it was named something else and I couldn't find it?

125 entries in 3 days, the bulk of which have come from people in North America. Obviously, there is a moderate amount of interest in rogaining. Perhaps the question should be restated - Why is there not a USA Rogaine Association?

Rogaine or rogaining?

Good point. The Rogaine Association would be headed up by Warnie.

@MrRogaine. perhaps because the adventure/navigation sports world is splintered enough as it is. How does splitting the few volunteers further help? perhaps it would satisfy the anti orienteering sentiment that some in Roganing seem
to have? Again what swampfox proposes
is a name change to enhance participation and
sponsorship opps.

Australia has less than 1/10 of the population of the US and has two seperate associations that coexist and cater to the particular needs of their respective members. What's the insurmountable hurdle for Americans?
Clearly the two sports have a lot in common but there are also some critical differences in basic philosophy that make it difficult, if not impossible, for one umbrella association to adequately provide for. Surely two associations can simultaneously focus on the particular needs of their members and cooperate and compliment each other and not compete for the same arguably limited market of potential participants and sponsor dollars.

Given the latent acrimony I believe they'd actually complement each other Instead eh? ;-)

@Mr Rogaine.
You seem to be unaware of the chronic shortage of volunteers in both sports. Maybe its not a problem in WA. As someone who participates in both forms, I find it frustrating to see the same names appearing in the results lists and often the leadership of both groups. Given the current Sports Commission policy of basing funding partly upon participation counts, I would think that we have a responsibility to seriously question the separation. Unless funding for promotion of participation in our sports is deemed of little value.

I liv for the dy wen AP haz spel cheker.

On the contrary, just last week WARA had a special committee meeting for the purpose of arresting the shortage of volunteers at rogaines. How is combining the two sports and possibly increasing government funding going to solve the shortage of volunteers? Are you going to pay people to run the sport? Only the major sports can attract that level funding. For the rest, that's a pipe dream.
As for combining the two sports in an attempt to seek synergistic benefits - all you will end up doing is recreating the volunteer shortage problem on a slightly grander scale.
There are other ways to solve the problem of volunteer shortage and burn out.

MrR - try a different browser. Chrome spell checks quite nicely.

Merging may have the benefit of not clashing Orienteering and Rogaine events ... possibly.

More full moons in a year may help as well.

Firefox has a 'add on/spell check'

Unfortately, I don't believe a spell checker is going to compensate for my poor education. -)

More full moons! That's what we need - more lunatics.

125 entries in 3 days, the bulk of which have come from people in North America.

MrRogaine, I'm not sure what that is about. The announcement from MerGeo about whether the Three15er rogaine is happening is expected to come within days. In summary, there is a lot of permitting work that wasn't done in time because the organization's limited resources were allocated to its more popular (and profitable) events.

Am I missing something? Why does the name of the sport matter? Surely it's just the name of the event that's more important?

Tough Mudder, Spartan Race, and Warrior Dash don't in anyway name what sport they consider themselves nor do they particularly describe the activity.

Pick a catchy name for your particular event and advertise using pictures, video, and an exciting description of what participants will face at the event. There's no need to use the term Rogaine or whatever other name the sport might be called.

And while I'm at it.

Since people seem to like the term Adventure Running why not Adventure Marathon or Adventure Ultra?

Tundra - I was referring to the number of postings in this thread, especially after one of the initial comments predicted there would be 50 by the end of the weekend. MerGeo would have breakeven points to consider.

@Mr Rogaine. My comment was probably too short.
With a shortage of volunteers, one short term solution is to reduce events. This can happen either by unplanned cancellations (the current default method), or by planning for fewer events. One way to do the latter might be to have a little coordination between orienteering and rogaining fixtures. I tried this approach some years ago and met with resistance from a minority of dedicated orienteers only and dedicated rogainers only. The inevitable results is the setting of state orienteering events and rogaines on the same day. Volunteers are needed for both, and those who participate in both forms of the sport have to make a choice. This reduces participation and the participants per volunteer ratio (though for rogaines it may also reduce the competition at the top of the results board). Not sure if fixturing has been solved as I stopped attending rogaines a couple of years ago due to injury and a weariness with the continual personal and haranguing to volunteer. A major voluntary commitment to one sport is enough. That's one orienteer who gave up on rogaining because of burnout. Victorian rogaining can't afford for this to happen too often.
[A quick review of the Victorian forest rogaines this year looks like five of the seven have been organised and set by very active orienteers. The list includes one of the most active orienteering mappers in the state and the technical map printing guru for the national orienteering scene. Three are regular event organisers for our local orienteering club].

The longer term solution is in promotional work to increase attendance. The local orienteering club has doubled its local event attendance over two or three years, and the catalyst for this was government seeding grants that supported a combination of mapping, equipment and paid organisers for junior and introductory events. One of the hurdles for this government support is active membership counts. There are hard thresholds to achieve before qualifying for grants. There are many other sports competing for this support.
"Are they going to pay people to run the sport. Only the major sports can attract that level funding. For the rest, that's a pipe dream"
I think that makes your statement cited above overly pessimistic. There may be good reasons for a more formal cooperation between the two forms of the sport. Indeed, this would just be a recognition and improvement on an informal reality.

Invisible I agree with most of what you say - and will mention in reference to your previous post that shortage of volunteers IS a problem in WA. I can't really speak for rogaining, but WARA newsletters do contain a fair amount of spruiking for volunteers, so I'd guess they have issues with filling their rosters.

However, as someone whose main sport is orienteering, and rarely does rogaines (I stopped for the same reasons you mention - injury and pressure to volunteer) I might be one of the minority of dedicated orienteers who want to have an event scheduled regardless of whether there is a rogaine.

Paying people to run the sport a pipedream - I agree with you that statement is pessimistic. Orienteering WA has been paying people to run our events for a few years now. We've employed people on either a wage or a share of the takings to run our sprint series. We employ people at almost every sprint and bush event to run the event software on the day.

Like you I question the separation, and even diehards like MrR must recognise that one day it will disappear. With one body running navigation sports, there would be more volunteers available. Fixturing could include joint events - eg a sprint, middle distance or MTB orienteering event taking place at a rogaine hash house would give exposure of both orienteering and rogaining to a bigger audience.

Simmo, rogaines are always desperate for volunteers. Every event there is the last minute callout for people to man the hash house, so it's not restricted to either sport.

As for clashing rogaines with orienteering events and the inevitable fallout, I refer you to this.

You disappoint me tRicky, I thought you were going to bring up the WA rogaines clashing with Aus champs rogaines issue.

There's nothing I can do about poor planning. I've tried.

tRicky I had nothing to do with the scheduling.

A question though: why do rogaines have to fall on a full moon? Surely the gun rogainers like yourself can manage without, and there have been enough rogaines by now with climatic conditions preventing the moon's appearance, together with improvements in lighting systems, to suggest that all rogainers should be able to cope without moonlight. Rigid adherence to full moons might explain Shane's complaint.

Another question might be why the WA novelty rogaine (entirely in daylight) has to be scheduled to clash with our long-established Saturday street series. It could easily be held on a Sunday, thus avoiding the clash.

Full moon = fun for novices, social and occasional rogainers. These are the vast majority of entrants. No moonlit wander would drop the attendance of all but the nerds with powerful lighting systems.

Well regardless of whether or not a full moon is a requirement, the rogaines will still be held. Does O need to be held on a full moon? Are you complaining that you cannot hold O on a full moon where it clashes with a rogaine because no-one will attend THOMASS?

Do not stir me up over the novelty event any more. I have said enough on that topic.

One issue with rogaines that has always confounded me. The big events on the calendar are the 6 and 8 hour events (which don't need a full moon). Catering for these is a massive task. Yet orienteers can organise 3 hour score events with minimal catering and far fewer volunteers. In the latter case catering consists of provision of hot water and soup sachets. Anything else is user provided. I used to hear the argument that catering for shorter rogaines was needed to keep the masses around while the results are tallied. But electronic timing should now mean that the results are in soon after the cut-off period. So why not reduce the volunteer requirement by reducing the catering load? Seems a low hanging fruit to me. Maybe shorter rogaines elsewhere are organised differently?

On a related note, I discern that the internationalization of rogaining maybe be increasing the workload in another area - the map. I am not going to complain about that. I'd personally prefer a better map to a cheese toastie. But I expect that not everyone would agree. This change may also reflect the close association with orienteering in the European scene. The mapper has also produced 4 WOC maps. Perhaps the different mapping approaches are merging because of the overlap of people and the increasing publicly availability of lidar data (as in the Czech Republic)? Anyway, the link is an interesting insight into the looming WRC.

http://www.rogaining.cz/wrc2012/en/

Maybe shorter rogaines elsewhere are organised differently?

We don't have a HH at all for anything shorter than 12 hours, but then we only have one 6hr and no 8hrs. I think the 6hr sometimes has a BBQ plate or two set up so you can cook your own...?

The 4hr novelty event is catered for. That's why more people go to that one rather than Simmo's Metro event on the same day.

Interesting difference in rogaine offerings east and west. In Victoria there was/is one 24 hour this year, a 12/6, 3 by 2*6s and 2 by 6hr metros. The demand is clearly for 6 hours, both from the punters and the setter/organisers. That is 11 sets of results, and 9 of them are for 6 hour events. Rogaining is a six hour sport! And it clearly is starting to blur the lines with 3 hour score events that are organised in the orienteering fixture. My bemusement is enhanced.

Demand is relative - in a standard year we have:
* 2 x 24hr (average 300-350 competitors)
* 2 x 12hr (~350-400)
* 1 x 12hr night (~150)
* 1 x 6hr (~250-300?)
* 1 x 4hr metro (~250)

We haven't really diversified as much as the eastern states - we stopped doing cyclogaines years ago due to lack of interest, and the metro rogaine has only reappeared in the last couple of years. But our bush rogaines have always been very popular, so maybe the need wasn't there.

How many volunteers are needed to run ye'r roagines?

In Ireland, Setanta (the club) generally fire off the race with 2 guys on the day.
They put out the controls the previous week and controls are taken in the following week by local orienteers out for a run.
Chances of controls being stolen during the week are slim, given the lack of anyone near 95% of the sites

2-3 setters
2-3 vetters
6-8 admin
10-15 hash house

Control collection is mostly done by teams going back out to get small groups after the event, and any remaining are collected by the setters over the next week or two - as with yours, there's virtually no chance of anyone stealing one once you're off the tracks.

Your Honour, I rest my case.

Sure, it's a lot of work and we frequently struggle to fill the above. (Those figures are for a 24hr, of course) I've just set the winter 24hr, and I'm thoroughly disinterested in volunteering for anything for at least a year. :)

But comparing apples & apples, at Victoria's last 24hr you had 34 teams for ~80 people. The winter 24hr here had 135 teams and ~350 people - we fed them for 21 hours and had the results out 10 minutes after the late cutoff without electronic punching.

hey Juffy you have maps to make for the O Aus Champs in 2014 stop all rogaine help immediately

...yes dad. :(

I didn't get fed for 21 hours.

You should come back in more often then.

Some interesting suggestions have been made by non APers for alternate names for rogaines for Americans (with a bit of tweeking)

"Twenty-four-hour Walking Adventure Team Sport" or for the shorter 6hr version
"Six Hour Intense Trek Sport" or for the even shorter 4hr version "Four-hour Adventure Racing Trek".

Then there is the even more interesting "Joint Exercise in Relocation Kinetics". Surely you guys can work with one of these. :-)

@Juffy
I'm not claiming any merit in the Victorian system. It looks even worse on a volunteer burden metric as you point out. My concern with the local system is that the 24 hour sledgehammer approach is applied to 6 hour events. I don't see the value in continuing traditions that are labour intensive if labour is in short supply. But to be fair, I'm not putting up my hand to volunteer to change anything, at least until after Easter 2013. Back to the map drawing.
Why the difference in demand for 6 and 24 hour events? The fragmentation of our rural land ownership may partly explain it.

On a more serious note why on earth would anyone want to merge orienteering with rogaining? Would you combine Rugby League with Rugby Union?

NFL & CFL could merge, if you need a N. American context

You watch our MrR, Europe will possibly be unable to resist merging the two when mapping standards come close, the participants are all elite and it's becomes a Long Scatter O-event. Then it'll be Australia on it's own beating another unique drum to keep their events Australian in flavour!

I would certainly combine RL with RU as there are a limited number of people with no necks, so separately both will eventually die out. Back in the UK when I were a lad, the only difference between the two was whether you were born North or South of a line drawn roughly half way across England.

Wow weee! I can't wait to see orienteers running around on current standard rogaine maps. Part of this thread has been about the shortage of volunteers in orienteering, so I think orienteers are going to have to eventually create and use maps with much less detail much like rogainers use. PLUS time will come when orienteers will have to run more and more scatter events because they wont have the resources to set endless courses for badge and relay events. AND WARA will just carry on it's merry way, setting more events each year, increasing participant numbers and most importantly, having FUN.

What a load of toss.

Pretty much sums up the whole thread. Only took 165 or so entries for someone to state the obvious.

Why is there not a USA Rogaine Association?

Fyi OUSA does have a Rogaining Committee that works with the IRF and with the rest of OUSA to manage the development of rogaining in the U.S. Because there is so little rogaining in Canada, they have invited a couple of us Canadians to join the conversation. The committee is ably headed by Barb Bryant and has been making steady progress during its short existence (2-3 years). For example, there is now a formal (optional) sanctioning process available for U.S. rogaines.

Everyone involved is also a volunteer in the sport of orienteering. In 2010, there was a motion at the IRF to limit voting membership to countries that had independent national rogaining associations. In the end, that didn't fly because people recognized that making the IRF a more exclusive club could have the effect of turning folks off rogaining in countries where the sport is less established, when in fact we wanted to encourage their involvement.

@Bash

+1 like.

sanctioning process available for U.S. rogaines

which rogaines in the US in 2012 have been sanctioned ?

btw, on second thought, the word "Rogaine" suits well for purposes of coining new terms. For example, Central Ohio Adventure Racing created an annual race happening in mid-March called Lepregaine. Not too far, here in Western Pennsylvania, the annual event Raccoongaine takes place.

I'm not involved in the sanctioning process but maybe another committee member will jump in here to fill in the blanks. The recent Dakota Rogaining Championships were OUSA-sanctioned. The upcoming Three15er Mergeo Rogaine has applied for sanctioning and for North American Championship status.

OUSA has a rogainng committee? So I guess you would all be happy if there was no OUSA but rather USA Track & Field had an Orienteering committee to govern the sport?

OMG that'd be so sweet! all those paid staff, development grants, cheap insurance for everyone, not just 501(c)3s, sponsor tie-ins... how come they didn't think about that back in the early 1970s?

There was one sanctioned rogaine this year, the Dakota Rogaining Championships, and indeed MerGeo has applied for the Three15er to be sanctioned as the North American Rogaining Champs. The best my memory serves me, the highest number of sanctioned rogaines so far in a year has been 3 (in 2010).

Mr. Rogaine, keep in mind that you are fortunate enough to live in the country where rogaining was invented.

Here in Canada, we have a population of 35 million and exactly one annual 24-hour rogaine. Orienteering Canada doesn't have a rogaining committee and there is no other central organization; it woudn't be a good use of limited volunteer resources.

In the U.S., there are 312 million people, and I think there will be three 24-hour rogaines in 2012. There are some shorter rogaines around the country too, but it's far from mainstream, even among navigation sports. OUSA is a step ahead in having this relatively new committee of keen rogainers, all of whom are also dedicated O volunteers.

In North America, it is not possible to have rogaining as your primary sport. Our rogainers are also orienteers, adventure racers, ultrarunners and hikers. Nobody here would be likely to use the nickname "Mr. Rogaine". Things are different.

So putting aside any debate over the merits of separate associations, it just isn't possible in North America right now. Perhaps this is the first step in an evolution toward a separate rogaining association. Or perhaps (as Hammer prefers), it is better for adventure sports to converge, work together and share resources, given the lack of government funding and heavy reliance on volunteers.

The OUSA Rogaining Committee is the best mechanism for developing the sport right now, and it is a big step forward.

@Bash

+1 like.

> Wow weee! I can't wait to see orienteers running around on current standard rogaine maps.
You have certainly seen it many times already at rogaines. eg
http://rogaine.asn.au/World-Championships/2nd-Worl...
No, you won't see orienteering events on the traditional rogaining maps. But you will increasingly see rogainers on orienteering style maps as the great convergence continues, driven by-

* the increasing availability of lidar data
http://o-wiki.net/index.php?title=LIDAR

* the automation of map production
http://www.routegadget.net/karttapullautin/

* the involvement of orienteering map makers in rogaining, the WRC in the Czech Republic being the most recent example.
http://www.rogaining.cz/wrc2012/en/

The low mapping standard of rogaining maps was originally a necessity forced by the high cost of map production. I have heard some argue that poor quality mapping is a distinguishing feature of the rogaining sport, requiring different skills to orienteering. Personally, I doubt this argument as orienteers seem to be overrepresented at the top of the leaderboard at rogaines (team 63 in the example above). But if you believe that the standard of mapping that you are used to should remain unchanged, then the sport will need to develop an international mapping standard that preserves what you are used to. That would then codify a real difference between the sports. [Orienteering vetters will criticse the event map for its faults and rogaining veters will criticse it for its lack of faults ;-) ] Otherwise, there will be more of the map below as the world of automated mapping progresses. It was created manually from 5 bush orienteering maps and a number of street orienteering maps. There is now a 1 metre lidar grid for the area around Bendigo and the potential to publish three more maps such as this around the town for alot less work. As they will be fully geo-referenced, it will be simple to merge them to create a 24 hour event map. Should this be done? Is this rogaining?

From Bendigo Rogaining

there are 312 million people, and I think there will be three 24-hour rogaines in 2012

That's four. The Rogaine Committee (NOT "Rogaining Committee") sanctioned one, is about to sanction the second, offered sanctioning to the third but was politely declined, and has very little contact with the organizers of the fourth.

Thanks for the correction, Tundra/Desert. (I confess that I dislike the term "rogaine" so I've never called the committee by its correct name!) Out of curiosity, what is the 4th 24-hour rogaine in the U.S. in 2012? I know of CNYO, Three15er Mergeo and Dakota.

Every sporting association starts somewhere. "Build it and they will come". You guys should be familiar with that story. That's how it started here in WA.

The question is - can OUSA adequately foster and build the sport of rogaining when it's primary goal and purpose for existence is to promote the sport of orienteering? I think not. Orienteering will always come first for OUSA. If push comes to shove, rogaining will always take a back seat to orienteering under the current arrangement.

At face value, the sports are similar - use map and compass. But the ideology of both sports is fundamentally different as are the tactics and skills used by competitors and their respective approach to competition. The two sports use different maps in the same way that orienteers and rally drivers use different maps.

Orienteering will always be geared towards high performance competition - an orienteering event is a race by individuals against the clock. Rogaining is more about participation and endurance - a personal test and a team sport. A point scoring challenge.

Ne'er the two will meet.

Would Usain Bolt readily meet a 6-hour marathon walker? Most of the audience gets the distinction between rogaining and orienteering but finds it largely insignificant in the context of things. If the discussion comes to organizational structures, FIS happily organizes cross-country races in addition to downhill, the synchronized swimmers are under swimming, etc etc.

what is the 4th 24-hour rogaine in the U.S. in 2012?

Race of Hope. It was billed as a 24-hour rogaine, but with rules twisted enough that for some it wouldn't count as a true rogaine; you only got a chance for the bonus checkpoints if you cleaned the rest of the course and came back to the hash house. Which was a problem for those who thought one of the CPs was misplaced.

Mr. Rogaine, you are fortunate to have so many volunteers to spread across two navigation sports. Maybe there's some government funding or private enterprise involved too? I wouldn't envy the person tasked with finding a group of volunteers willing to take on the big project of setting up and operating a new national organization for a sport that may or may not take off in the U.S. In Canada, we don't have any central rogaining body at all, so I'm impressed with the group Barb Bryant set up.

From reading this thread, I get the feeling that Australian rogaining has a very different culture from Australian orienteering - and it's also different from the culture of rogaining in North America. In Ontario, at least, we have a lot of crossover in volunteers and participants among our various map and compass sports - including adventure racing - and we'd like to have even more. Yes, the maps and styles of navigation are different in the various sports. Lots of us enjoy that challenge. Sure, there are people who want to navigate exclusively on one type of map, and that's OK too.

The rogaines I've attended have been more competitive (fitter people with better navigation skills) than most non-championship orienteering meets I've attended. Rogaines are not just about participation here - at least not in any way that is different from orienteering. Maybe that is part of the secret to the success of rogaining in Australia? It sounds like you attract a good number of people who would normally be bushwalking instead of doing a competitive sport. That hasn't been the case at the rogaines I've attended although I know Tundra/Desert was thinking creatively about an event that would attract that demographic in addition to the regular crowd.

To quote from the IOF web page:
"There is a wide variety of orienteering events: individual competitions and relays, ultra-short park races and mountain marathon events. Night orienteering with the aid of a head lamp is also a popular form of orienteering."

Yes, it comes down to this interesting question. What are the real differences between orienteering and rogaining. Are these differences greater than the differences between Long orienteering events and Sprint orienteering events or Mountain Bike orienteering events? I suspect there is a geographic variation to this. So from my local (south east Australian) perspective, here are some observations from my experience that run counter to MrRogaine's perceptions. The perceptions of others will obviously be different to mine.

> But the ideology of both sports is fundamentally different
I think there is a wide diversity within orienteering from the seriously competitive to the experiential orienteer and the recreational walker. The seriously competitive orienteer is a minority in my location, though we do celebrate the achievements of those who perform well in serious competition. And I have to add this after an earlier comment. The reason people orienteer is to have fun. Having fun is not a distinguishing feature of rogaining. Some people even wrestle in jelly for fun.

> as are the tactics and skills used by competitors
Why then do regular orienteers perform so well in rogaines? Team 63 I mentioned in an earlier post seemed to know how to navigate well on a WA rogaining map. Seems to me that the skills used in orienteering are pretty useful on a rogaine.

> and their respective approach to competition [is different].
Again, a massive diversity from those who train seriously (a minority) to those who choose either sport as their recreational option. If you take as your sample those who log on AttackPoint, its not a very representative selection of orienteers.

> The two sports use different maps in the same way that orienteers and rally drivers use different maps.
Yes, but there is a convergence happening. See my previous post about lidar, automated map making and orienteering mappers. Is this convergence desirable to you, and if not, how will you stop it?

> Orienteering will always be geared towards high performance competition - an orienteering event is a race by individuals against the clock
Anyone writing this has never been to a local orienteering event and watched the behaviour of the crowd. Quite a few only take notice of the course closure time and aim to get back before that so as not to place extra burden on the organisers. As for rogaines, does no-one read the results that are published after every rogaine? Does no-one push themselves to maximise their score. And what is the point of the penalty points for being late at a rogaine? Who has not been forced to travel much faster than they wanted to finish before the clock strikes race end? I'll believe rogaining is different when results are no longer published.

> Rogaining is more about participation and endurance - a personal test and a team sport. A point scoring challenge.
Again, I see the truth as being more complex.
• Many people orienteer to participate and to have fun with no concern for results. I am always impressed by those who continue to orienteer into their later years of life when merely getting around a course is a significant achievement.
• There are orienteering events that emphasise endurance, more so in Europe than Australia. Where the trend is to six hour rogaines in my locale, you have the situation where distances covered by average competitors are not much removed from that covered by runners in ultra orienteering events.
• There is at least three team orienteering events on our state fixture. Two are relays (different sort of team event, granted) and one is a group event.
• Finally, the majority of orienteering events in Victoria are street events and these are all scatter or score events. There is nothing unique in the score event format. Some argue that the first rogaines were the MUMC 24 hour walks and these were line events.

> Ne'er the two will meet.
I take this as an ideological statement rather than a prediction. It seems the author is quite strong on his ideology. But once you go down the path of formally internationalising the sport, it can go in unexpected directions if not everyone shares the same ideology. In that case, Toom's predictions may come to pass. "Then it'll be Australia on it's own beating another unique drum to keep their events Australian in flavour!"

Lot of good points. I have done a little orienteering.

Maybe you should give it a try in the long gaps between rogaines. ;-) The two sports can be quite complementary. There are some lovely people in the WA orienteering scene, just as there are some lovely people in the Victorian rogaining scene.

@TheInvisibleLog
+1 like

@tRicky
+1,000,000 likes

I'm sorry, I was being mischievous. I was actually a regular at orienteering in WA from 1978 until about 2006 and am still acquainted with some of the orienteering people in WA. I even attended the majority of the summer series last summer.

Along the way, I did a short stint on the Orienteering Council, set a state champs, set numerous badge and countless standard events, was a very minor assistant setter at the 1988 Aus Champs Carnival in Perth under the tutelage of simmo (and kept orienteering despite that...), went to WOCARN in 1985 and APOC in Tasmania in 1988. In the end, I gave away the regular attendance because I found that orienteering was consuming the greater part of every Sunday just getting to an event, doing the event and then driving home. Plus I became increasingly frustrated by the ever increasing inclination of the governing bodies, both state and national, to insist on pedantic rules and standards being applied to the conducting of events especially for setters. The killer was the hide and seek concept of placing controls. The mantra is "find the feature, find the control". Hiding controls on the far side of 1m high boulders does not lend itself to enjoyment for me.

I can't ever see a time when rogaine maps for 24 hour events will be made to an orienteering standard, unless there is a fundamental way in which maps are made. ie no groundwork required and maybe instead using extremely high resolution 3D imagery - would that even be possible? Anyway, the cost of producing an orienteering map 15kmx10km would be horrendously prohibitive. I think we do really well to produce custom 1:50,000 5m contour maps for each rogaine, showing major linear features, out of bounds areas and magnetic north lines.

I had thought you meant the other way around.

Oh this is a classic MrRogaine, your comment:

The killer was the hide and seek concept of placing controls. The mantra is "find the feature, find the control". Hiding controls on the far side of 1m high boulders does not lend itself to enjoyment for me

The reality for a competent orienteering navigator is quite the opposite! In fact, when orienteering events are set by lower-level navigators the navigation reduces in challenge and the event consists of thought processes along the lines of "punch control, look up, sight far hillside with spur, run to it, locate control on feature without fine navigation required" - then repeat for most legs. However, to actually know uncontestedly that the control is on the specified side of a particular boulder means it is possible to navigate accurately to it. The challenge is to bring one's skills up to match the challenge, the old inverted-U theory.

Take tRicky, Wil and AndreM - all rogainers who have taken up orienteering in their thirties for enjoyment and to improve their rogaining. AndreM has succceeded best, tRicky not far behind - and Wil still hunts for boulders MrR style ;-)

On t'other hand, rogaines consist too much of 'bingo' navigation where it is often still not possible to accurately navigate to the control site. That is what is frustrating e.g. The broad knoll. Yes, you can hit the feature - but then a new skill (caused by lower map detail) has to be employed - searching. Ditto with course planning, and "different tactics are used" as, knowing the poor mapping detail, teams choose to use their navigation skills to visit controls, where possible, in daylight and from a safe direction. The orienteers who tend to perform less well in rogaines are also poor navigators in orienteering. However, the top orienteers are similarly top rogainers.

As an aside, I remember the monumental fail of Gary Aitken's 'In Like Flynn' rogaine map at 1:25,000 that selectively mapped some rock detail!

OK I obviously don't know the WA scene all that well. its too far across and your bloody mining boom made it too expensive to consider recently.

> unless there is a fundamental way in which maps are made. ie no groundwork required and maybe instead using extremely high resolution 3D imagery - would that even be possible?

YES.

http://www.routegadget.net/karttapullautin/

You have to map to the standard possible with the scale, so in orienteering the mappable detail is greater on a sprint map (and aren't they a pain to map). And on a 1:40,000 scale you would have fewer features than on a 1: 15,000. And the scale is to a degree determined by the area required for the event. As the scale increases, the accuracy derived from lidar analysis will be closer to what is required. As an indication, the lidar for the day three map for next years Easter needed two new shallow gullies added manually. At 1:40,00 you wouldn't need those gullies.

Tooms, I'm so glad I give you something to chew over.

I never claimed to be a competent orienteer. But I would have considered myself to be average. I'm also of the opinion that my views on this matter are not restricted to myself but to a numerous ex members. I wonder if any orienteering association has bothered to determine, in a systematic manner, why members have quit the sport.

Most orienteers can easily get themselves to within the circle. What seperates the good from the average is the time wasted with fine navigation inside the circle. It seems to come down to counting minutes and seconds. So many logs on AP, which I know is populated by dedicated orienteers, talk about 30 seconds here and 90 seconds there. How on earth do you all keep track of those miniscule time bites? I don't want to be worried about things like that. I want to enjoy the scenery and marvel in the fact that I can find my way from A to B with only a map and compass. Who cares if it took me 10 minutes longer than someone else? Life is too short.

How can "boulder hunting" be eliminated when the art of mapping is so subjective? I've seen three or four versions of a map for the same small piece of ground and they sometimes bear no resemblance to each other. Even Juffy has posted discussions on AP discussing the problems encountered trying to map a particular patch of ground. One common comment amongst orienteers is to "know" that a particular mapper will interpret terrain in a particular fashion. Yet, orienteers expect to be able to fine navigate using such subjective information? Maybe one of the fundamental differences between orienteering and rogaining is that rogaining don't pretend to offer up accurate, detailed maps where as orienteering does.

Also, to the contrary, there is a definite skill in reading between the lines when it comes to navigating using a rogaine standard map. Back in the day, we did not have the luxury of 5m contours and had to suffice with 10m contours. That and the lack of other detail meant that you had to bear in mind the lack of detail available and fill in the blanks with some intuitive thinking and imagination. (Heck, you still have to do that when trying to work out the idiosyncrasies of a mapper). This is more obvious to an orienteer working with a rogaine standard map. Also, getting your head around the distinctly different map scales is a challenge - not the 1:10 to 1:15 but the leap from 1:10 to 1:50. It's a case of what you haven't experienced, you don't miss. So, for a scout or bushwalker used to using 1:50,000 or 1:100,000 maps, a rogaine map is a godsend but for an orienteer, it can be a nightmare.

Mr Aitken's In Like Flynn map was a disaster and one of my rules, when creating a rogaine map, is "when in doubt, leave it out".

In WA, some of the top rogainers have never been to an orienteering event or at the very least only attended a handful of events.

Bemused. It is clear that Ian does not enjoy orienteering and that's fine by me. But its a fair jump to assume that the problems one person has with events in one location can be extrapolated to a sport as a whole.
I would recommend a perusal of the current event commentary on AP right now. The One Cowboy Relay and the World Corn Maze World Ranking Event demonstrate there are orienteering events where the results don't really matter, one can take the mickey on the sport and the purpose in attendance is amusement. I really wish I could attend those events. They look like so much fun. And add Barebones to that list.
Or you could come to my Ironman event next week where the handicaps are at my discretion, winning means nothing and you can only run if you intend to have fun. Except when publicly voting on whether the handicaps of winners of the previous race need to be changed, in which case you can be mean spirited, in a friendly sort of way.

That link looks so interesting. Will have to look closer at it. Right now, it's time to dash - there is a rogaine to go and do. Woo hoo!

Coincidentally, we have a handicap orienteering event on this Sunday. Unfortunately it clashes with a rogaine. I am not competing in either but am having a relaxing weekend with the g/f eating the hash house out of rice and stroganoff and occasionally giving a team an incorrect score for my own amusement.

Yeah, 200th post - what's my prize Pink Socks?

tRicky, your poor gold fish.

I was thinking of doing the 200th post but I left it to one more worthy

Where did you get the idea that results don't matter in Corn Maze Orienteering? We're talking about serious sprint stuff on a perfect map at 1:1000. Lacking medieval cities in these parts, this is our equivalent. (The publicity is lighthearted, but the event is not.) One Cowboy Relay is similar, a straightforward race in a lighthearted wrapper.

Maybe I should have a big wooden spoon - for better stirring?

MrR you appear to be a lone voice in the wilderness. Accept the inevitable (accurate rogaining maps, merger of IRF/IOF and OA/ARA) - it will surely come.

The question is - can OUSA adequately foster and build the sport of rogaining when it's primary goal and purpose for existence is to promote the sport of orienteering? I think not.

Stupid ass comment, MrR. You do realise who set up this website?

Yeah, 200th post - what's my prize Pink Socks?

Not only were you 200th overall, but you were the 100th (or so) post by an Aussie in a thread about renaming the sport in the United States. :-)

Rogaining maps don't have to become more accurate either for those rogainers who demand every squiggle etc. be there or for course setters who think they want that accuracy. The rules need to be understood.

Rogaine maps shouldn't be inaccurate either, if the technology exists to make an accurate map with a reasonable amount of effort (such as lidar and gis data). But accuracy is quite a distinct thing from level of detail. Part of the challenge of rogaining is being able to generalize the terrain and rogaine maps should not be expected to have the level of detail of standard orienteering maps. But having a rogaine map with accurately depicted contours, water features and tracks is far superior to a map with dubious accuracy where you have to question whether a mapped feature is really there or not.

Raccongaine, paddlegaine, metrogaine etc reveal something to me about the flexibilty of rogaine as label whether you accept the compound word Rogaine and it's backgronym. More skilled people than me can probably explain why at least one part of the whole is useful. Is it just my familiarity with the word or does the '...gaine...' imply movement and action.

It is as Swampfox suggests at the beginning of this it is about marketing, about attracting people's attention, their desire for adventure, for a test, for companionship, for a challenge, for friendship, etc.

OutbarGAINEd

Back from the rogaine - great weekend. Of course I realise who set this site up. That's a small part of the reason why I make the comments I do, but only a small part. I can't believe someone would feel the need to make such a criticism. Chill out boy - it's meant to be fun. :-) Just imagine what the world would be like if we took Yanks seriously? Sheesh!

Simmo, why would rogaining possibly consider a merger with orienteering? The real question is, when will you guys schedule the funeral for orienteering in Western Australia?

Divide and conquer.

Was the rogaine on the weekend meant to prove rogaining is a (competitive) sport? 4th place overall to a team that spent nearly 10 hours sitting around a campfire/sleeping/eating and the winners about 30% clear of second...

Wait, rogaining is a competitive sport? We should get it included in the Olympics!!

How many people entered your last badge event?

Rogaining is a clear winner - far more happy people who enjoyed their weekend. Difficult to put more rogaines on though so we'd better keep filling the gaps with shorter distance navigation events. What, does that mean the two sports can quite happily coexist? Surely not.

Gasp! What a novel idea. :-)

Alhtough in asking the question I wasn't thinking of a comparison between sports because that would be pointless. I was thinking of trends in attendance over the years within orienteering. Surely to goodness the continual drop in participant numbers must be of great concern to OAWA?

Drop in numbers at which events?

Attendances at sprint races and metro races are pretty consistent. Just bush attendances are falling.

As for MY last badge event... well, i wasn't at the event I think you are referring to. I forget what else was on the same weekend... CAn't actually remember the last badge event I ran at that wasn't a state champs.

I am well aware rogaining has vastly superior attendaces in WA. But I laugh at all the people who consider themselves serious athletes and/or good navigators because they can win a top 10 badge by getting about half what the best team does.

I was thinking in terms of survival of the orienteering association. I find it laughable that orienteers keep trying to look down their noses at rogaining because they believe rogainers think of themselves as serious athletes. Here's some news for you - rogainers in WA don't care whether they are serious athletes or not.

Some (many) of the ones I speak to at events seem pretty results and badges obsessed for a pack of bushwalkers. Being a super-athlete myself (not) I have a simliar chuckle about the

I actually think they're both fanstastic sports. But seeing as I like to be competitive and push myself, I like a sport I can participate in each week, rather than one that writes me off from doing anything terribly physical for a week afterwards (not a great situation for a PE teacher)

Now, what was this thread meant to be about again??

Rename rogaining as 24hr / ultra picnicking ;)

I ate a lot at the weekend's rogaine and collected two controls but didn't get an official result, unlike a certain other non-paying attendee.

OAWA annual event participation has been pretty stable for the past 10 years at around 5,000, pushing up to 7,000+ when Easter or Nationals are held in WA. (Then there are our school events and sessions with participation totalling 10,000 pa!)

I would say the proportion of competitors in Orienteering and rogaining who consider themselves to be 'serious athletes' is pretty similar. But I think you'd find the same is true of most sports.

Interesting. Are OAWA running more events per year now compared to 10 years ago?

Less bush evvents, more metro and sprint. Probably more overall.

So, the participant numbers are "stable" because you have the same people doing more and more events. Doesn't that skew the numbers a bit?

WARA has increased the number of events from 6 up until 2009 to 7 in 2010 and 8 in 2011. Isn't WARA concerned about a low number of regulars compared to those that try it once and are never seen again?

Come on Ian - leave this post for good - I'm going to.

And if I were Craig I wouldn't be happy about you hijacking his AP log to push the same weary theme!

Metro and Sprint races are far easier on volunteers than bush events. The maps can almost be drawn straight from nearmap, they can be set very quickly, controls in and out very quickly, low admin burden (particularly metro), and little travel time as they tend to be set by locals. (Don't tell my employer when I finished the mapping for Mindarie)

So has this trend really increased colunteer burden? I find it much easier to fit metro event setting into my life than bush events, so tend to do more of that.

If I had a little more time to sort the logistics, I would probably try running a mid-week evening series that doesn't even use controls.

Anyways, I've taken this thread hijack far enough. If you want to sledge some more, do it on my log :)

Are any Americans still following this thread that we so rudely took over?

Who cares? It's about time they got kicked out of occupied territory.

Sigh! OK. Now, what other windmills can I tilt at?

MrRogaine, artwork that describes the game. I have seen on occasions a West Australian sloppy joe that had a silhouette of a team with their Rogaining gear on, head torches etc. seeking out a flag hanging from a tree. Any ideas on who may have produced it would like to adapt it for the IRF web site if it is available etc. Good windmill? Cheers, Alan

I have seen on occasions a West Australian sloppy joe that had a silhouette of a team with their Rogaining gear on...

Now that was a confusing mental image. But I'm afraid to tell the Australians how ridiculous that sentence sounded. They seem pretty defensive about their naming schemes.

Yes, you're right - the correct construction would have been 'Western Australian'.

I'm wondering what a "sloppy joe" is in Strine. In the USA, it's a food item.

@JJ cultural translation for sloppy joe (u betcha)= sweat shirt (hoodie maybe), loose fitting jumper (not the marsupial kind tho)

I have no idea what that sentence meant and I live here. I thought perhaps a sloppy joe was a hat.

Perhaps the IRF would like to use MrRogaine's shirt as their website logo. Now that'd be a good way to scare people off.

Sorry, but I'm at a loss as to the item of clothing to which you are referring. Over the years we have had event specific clothing and some generic sloppy joes and/or t-shirts with the traditional rogaine symbol prominently displayed but nothing with a silhouette that I remember. Can you recall whether there was any wording with that design?
LostRichard has been around as long as I and his memory is probably better, though it may be hazed by fizzyred.
As an aside, what is a sloppy joe foodwise?

A sandwich of ground beef cooked in a spicy tomato or barbecue sauce and usually served on a bun.

To be a true sloppy joe the ground beef mixture must generously overflow the bun and when eaten it must deposit some quantity on the consumer's shirt or pants.

Interview with Killian:
First time I read of it, but looks like ultra running in Europe is going the rogaine way.

http://adventureblog.nationalgeographic.com/2012/0...

Do you think sky running will take off in the U.S. like it has in Europe?

Killian: It is different. In America is more trail running, and less technical races. In Europe skyrunning is town-summit-town or long crossings by the shortest way possible, so you need to think where put your feet. It is more technical. In America there are mountains for this kind of race too, but it is a different philosophy.


IRF shold invite Killian to "skyrun" couple of rogaines

On a serious note. Skyrunning... We need a catchy name like that. Put an event with 10 checkpoints or less so that ultra runners will be confident to go out. Advertise it as the best thing since sliced bread and what's hot at the moment in Europes ultra scene. And serioulsy somebody get this guy to a rogaine. From follownig him for some time he is all about free running and being out in the wilderness etc... etc...

BAOC's TrailCross series is scheduled to debut in March of 2013.

"TrailCross" -- I like it!!!

As an American just back from 10WRC, I was astonished to find this thread. Thanks, Aussies, for your contributions to it. Having done some thirty 24-hour Rogaines including WRCs in six countries, I think "Rogaining" and "Rogaine" are great names. They are unique, distinct, memorable.

Actually, orienteering does not have an equivalent word for "rogaine ". We have "orienteering events" or "orienteering competitions". If Americans don't want to use the word "Rogaine" because it is also the name in America (only) of some obscure hair tonic for bald men, then just talk about "rogaining events" or "rogaining competitions" like orienteering.

I don' t see what is so hard about explaining what rogaining is. I have sat in a lot of airline seats next to strangers who ask. I just tell them that rogaining is 24-hour team orienteering, a variation of normal orienteering in which you are given a topo map with maybe 60 control locations marked on it . You go in teams of two (normally) and have 24 hours to go to as many of the control locations as possible. It is like a big treasure hunt. The farther, harder controls are worth more points . Most points wins. People have no trouble understanding that.

Most people have by now heard of orienteering, although they may not understand how it is organized as a sport. Thus I may further describe normal orienteering - you are given a map with maybe 10 or 12 control locations marked on it, which you are to go to in a specified order. It takes maybe an hour, more if you get lost. You can walk or run, go alone or with a friend or group, and families with kids. Fastest time wins, and there are long and short courses for different ages and abilities.

Simple. A few statements like above, they get the idea, they thank me, wish me good luck, and turn to the movie now playing. If they sound truly interested, I have no trouble expanding at length with passion about orienteering/rogaining.

One further thing - to say that orienteering and rogaining are two different sports is nonsense. Long before there was rogaining there was score orienteering. My club used to hold such events often. Sometimes we held a variation where you went to all in any order; or your choice of say 15 of 18 in any order, fastest time wins. What is rogaining other than a 24-hour score-O done in teams of two?

I have done 24-hour rogaines on highly detailed large scale maps, and normal orienteering on some small scale crummy maps. Orienteering - Long-O, Night-O, Bike-O, Ski-O, Sprint, Relay, Middle, Classic Distance, mass-start Billygoat, Rogaine, Score-O - lots of variation, but it's still all about reading a map, whether large or small scale, crummy or good; then choosing a route and navigating to a location on that map.

+1 for Sharon's 'rogaine is orienteering'
-1 for Sharon's 'no name change'

Most people have by now heard of orienteering, ...

In which population?

Way to go Sharon!!

I haven't even gotten past the first line of this article...

http://www.pagosa.com/adventureguide/rogaine/

Skyrunning. Great new name for fell running? Looks like I just add a few specifics regarding climb and grade, and voila! my fell run is now a Skyrun. I like the tone of 'Fell run' better myself. Grim.

But the Skyrun is a brilliant idea from a marketing perspective, and sure to do well in the US in places where it's possible to have them.

Rogaine the hair tonic is anything but obscure. Pretend you're someone you chatted up on a plane, and want to find out more with (what else!) a Google search. Bleh!

We need marketeers. UltraNav is the only one that makes any sense to me, but I agree with the sentiments that it needs to be memorable, simple, and probably 'cool' in some regard.

Pretend you're someone you chatted up on a plane, and want to find out more with (what else!) a Google search.

Hey there are two entries for the sport in the first page of Google and ...not surprisingly... none on Bing.com

If you are not online you do not exist. If you are on page 3 of Goggle results, same thing.... Period. I already cringe when I am asked to register for an event emailing excel sheet or a word document instead of through online form. And I am old to remember the snail mail and no world wide web times.

Hey there are two entries for the sport in the first page of Google

Try "rogaining". Works great in both search engines, and not a mention of minoxidil. Just be careful about your grammar when you open your mouth on a plane and everyone be happy.

Rogaining is a tiny sport. This word has some difficulties in a country where the term is used for a hair restorerer.

Orienteering is a tiny sport. This word has some difficulties in countries where long polysyllables are not usual.

There's a need for a short 'sound-bite' term for conversation and graphics.

In the spectrum of all sports, the two are very similar. Alleged differences in philosophy are nonsense, both are suitable for, and do have, a range of participants from recreational to competitive, with the greatest numbers recreational. Both are athletic sports involving navigation with maps.

The name is "mapsport".

(Posting edited to remove irrelevant stuff.)

Bloody New Zealanders hijacking the thread.

Venues are also a consideration in attracting participants. The name for a rogaine can be super compelling but if you have to go to some nondescript forest it is less of a draw. However people came to my Joshua Tree 8 hour rogaine (called a map trek) who I have never seen at any other events. They came because it was Joshua Tree. Too bad it is so hard to get a permit there now with the fulltime position reduced to a 20% platoon of two rangers. Maybe I will try again someday.

If you're ever able to make that a 24-hour event, it would be appealing to adventure racers around North America. I'm sure getting a permit would be super difficult though. I remember clicking on your event name with great excitement, and you're absolutely right - that was because it was in Joshua Tree. It was too far to fly for a shorter event but it sounded awesome.

Appeal to adventure racers may not matter much any longer; even if you get all of the surviving ones at your event, that would still not pay the bills. At least that's what the AR event operators out here seem to have decided.

Much different in central Canada, fortunately, and the northeast U.S. scene looks busy as well. Yesterday a 30-hour adventure race was announced for July 2013 in the Canadian Rockies. The MOMAR series in B.C. continues to do well. I wonder what happened in California? We have noticed here that some of the fringe competitors in AR have migrated to obstacle racing but it hasn't made a big dent.

Well, as I said, the operators decided that the bills couldn't be paid, and they all did it at once, so it must be true. Partly it has to deal with our high permit and insurance environment, but partly it has to do with the promotion and the product. If your attendance tanks when Mark Burnett isn't doing your promo for you, it means a superposition of two things, both of which have to be true to some extent: (1) you should have done more of your own promotion, and (2) your product doesn't intrinsically appeal to people without it being on TV for hours. Fortunately rogaine has much less of a (2) problem, judging at least by comparative attendance.

It is interesting that there is an annual race in Canada that is described as follows: "Teams of two or more have a fixed time (8 or 24 hours) to visit as many of the 60 checkpoints as possible. The winner of the event is the team that obtains the highest point total within the specified time, or is the fastest to return to the start after visiting all the markers on the course."
There is no mention of rogaine or rogaining but they had 339 competitors this year.

http://ecoendurancechallenge.ca/

And the Salomon Raid the Hammer part of the Salomon Dontgetlost Adventure Running Series has sold out with 300 participants the last few years (larger than most Canadian Orienteering Championship participation).

So, what could be a good name change? It may be that it should stay the same because those who do it know what it is. To get more people involved, perhaps, the name should be changed. This thread seems to lose focus, then come back in focus but there is nothing that has shown a direction that the Rogaine committee should take or what they should recommend to the OUSA board.

I think this is an amusing clip from the local club's minutes. I know its a long way back in the thread, but this is posted response to the comment that you won't get funds to pay organisers.
" *** raised the need to push the paid Space Racing position next year after there were no takers this year."
ie the club has funds but no-one able to take the paid position. At its worst, it could be argued that we can't offer enough money to attract a paid organiser.

The name change did not come up at the Rogaine Committee meeting two days ago. Our primary concern at this point is having more sanctioned events, and having the U.S. Rogaine Championships and the North American Rogaining Championships scheduled, sanctioned, and promoted well in advance.

Rogaine or rogaining?

As above.

Above or below?

Greasy Spoon, Staff Canteen Sydney Airport, International Terminal mid 1990s to about 2000. Apt name it was.

Rogaines in addition.

This suggestion was sent to me by a Russian that I met at WRC. His English is a bit stilted, but he says "pick up score so you race in orienteering team".

That name is far too long.

Yeah, exactly, so you just make an acronym out of it. (I never realized how Russian that looks when you don't think of it as being English.)

;)

You could go to jail for that.

I just went to watch a Colbert Report interview with physicist Lisa Randall here, and was forced to watch a 30-second advertisement for Rogaine (the hair restorer, of course) before the interview.

Given that the Colbert Report is very popular, especially with the younger demographic, and only allows their clips to be seen on the internet on their own website, that is a lot of people being told that the word "Rogaine" has to do with balding men. I'm guessing every few minutes on their site, more people are introduced to the medical version of "Rogaine" than are introduced to the navigational version of "Rogaine" in a month (year? ever?).

Fortunately the content is blocked in OZ so we are safe with the true meaning of rogaine

That is a shame. I was looking forward to watching a rogaine commercial.

I thought rogaining did have a correlation with balding men?

Rogaine videos. Includes FAQs! ;-)

I did not see any checkpoints in that video. Just what game are you playing here?

I dunno. If you watch the Rogaine video often enough, it might grow on you...