Discussion: Carrying water during an event

I usually don't carry water for a run or competition where I expect to finish in under 75 minutes... unless its really hot. The Christmas 5 day at Jindabyne in 2006 was really hot. As I raced a couple of faster young guys in an event featuring open grasslands with good visibilty I was able to drink from my camelback and watch them lead me into each control. At a drinks control I caught them up (again) as they stopped to drink and got a good lead on them before they overtook me (again), allowing me to stay within sight of them for another control or two. So my question is: carry it and sip when you need or rely on water supplied - which is faster? What factors come into play?

I used a camelback last year for the BAOC Golden Goat. I think it makes sense at a mass start event because of the tactical advantage of not having to stop for water. For an individual race I prefer not carrying my own water.

The advantage of carrying water, for me, is that I can regulate my intake, rather than thirst for 30+ minutes and then chug down 8+oz at a water stop.

On the other hand, one of the side effects of hyponatremia is impaired cognitive function.

I'll usually take electrolyte caps in an event lasting >2 hrs.

I saw some top runners like terry Gueorgiou, Holger Hott Johansen and a few others carry water on them during WOC but they never had it on them in the finish. So I guess for them it's an advantage until there's no more fluid then they ditch it somewheres?

USOF's Rules for Orienteering seem to forbid casting away empty bottles, or refilling a camelback once out on the course:

37.8 Competitors shall not ... waste the water. Each competitor shall avoid using more than 8oz of water at any one refreshment control unless they need additional water to drink.

38.1 It is forbidden to cause damage in the competition terrain

Perhaps they left the empty bottles at a water control, figuring whoever collected cups would collect them too?

There are no such restrictions in the IOF Rules.

It is common at WOC and WC for there to be "coaching zones" near spectator controls, where water bottles or bladders can be exchanged or, presumably, gotten rid of.

I don't like wearing a hydration pack while orienteering. I don't know whether it actually interferes with the biomechanics of running quickly (and ducking, weaving, etc.), but it sure feels uncomfortable. I don't mind a bladder pack as much for ultra running, in which the running motion is comparitively slow and controlled.

I don't know whether it actually interferes with the biomechanics of running quickly

It does. There was a Nature article a few weeks ago that starts with exactly this statement, and then proceeds to introduce a gizmo to deal with the issue. I'm too afraid to scan it and link to it, though, because of their copyright policies; and the abstract does not do it much justice, you have to see the movies. The article seems like one of those weird things that pop up in Nature sometimes, but no weirder than pack formation in orienteering.

I carry a Camelbak during events when it is warmer... I'd say above 70 or so... unless it is a sprint or relatively short course. I never used to do this but I have had 2 times when I came off the course on the verge of heat stroke. One was a long course on a 103 degree day and when I reached the water stops there was nothing left. I stopped sweating so that was quite bad. The second time was in an A-meet and the water was never put out at the control. After that I decided I'd much rather have the minor hassle of a pack and be able to drink freely. I'm not fast enough that I notice it affecting my movement. Actually I tend to forget it is there until I go to duck under something and get snagged!

The only time I've ever had problems with back pain was after a training run carrying a camelback. I usually try to train in places where I know I can find water fountains or make loops back to my car to drink. I now have a newer style camelback and have trained a few times with it without experiencing the back pain. I'm still leery of trying it in competition though.

I've never used a a hydration pack for traditional orienteering, but I have once in a mini-rogaine. Instead of a backpack design, I used a hip (lumbar?) pack. It was actually quite comfortable for jogging, and I could sling it over a shoulder whenever I got tired of wearing it on my waist.

Yes, I'll typically take some electrolyte for most of my activities, even on an orienteering (long) course as it does get pretty hot here in the summers. Even if, it only aids in my recovery for doing something afterwards.

But, like all things, you need to train with whatever you're using - if you don't, and then decide to wear it in a race, then yes, you'll likely decide it was a pain in the #@!.

Also, your body can only absorb 24 ounces/hour (0.7 litres) , (thinking varies on this) which is quite a bit really, but I interpret this to mean you're better off taking frequent sips then trying to chug back a bunch at an aid station.

The rate of water absorption is a function of the amount of water in your stomach (ie amount absorbed per hour is a constant x% of stomoch contents).. so it's best to keep yourself topped up.

I don't use a camel back because it restricts my movement to much but I use the water belt from the running room and it's great! Don't even feel it moving around or anything.

I like to begin a long event, such as a Rogaine, with a fresh grapefruit in one hand. Since my beginning pace is usually slower, and the early terrain usually doesn't require two-handed climbing, I can carry the grapefruit for an hour or two before i begin to peel it as I run.

I like the citric acidity and juiciness, the fructose provides a mild energy boost, but not enough to trigger a bonk, and the bits of peel are biodegradable.

You can also squeeze the peel to create a spray of citrus oil. If you aim this at the eyes of a competitor you can temporarily impede their progress.

I do 1.5 to 3 hour runs in Harriman State Park on a regular basis but usually don’t carry water. Instead I have stashes of Water and GU placed in various spots in the park. If I am getting parched, I navigate to one of those points to reload.

One weird thing: I usually leave 1 pint bottles of store bought bottled water at the stashes. After 4 or so months, the water taste terrible when you drink it. A horrible rancid, chemical taste. It would seem that the water is absorbing odor/taste from the plastic or from its environment. Any idea what is causing this? Bottled water indoors lasts for years.
Hope I am not poisoning myself.. I am thinking of leaving glass containers instead of plastic ones.

Well, what are the differences? Water outdoors is probably subjected to wider temperature swings, and depending on where you put it, to sunlight. I would think it's unlikely that anything next to the bottle would diffuse through the plastic (though I'm not an expert in these matters), and if it did, I would think that it would be a different sort of taste to what you describe. As an experiment, try leaving some bottles in your back yard on a clean surface for a while, and see what they do.

Bernard:
Are you sure you're finding the exact bottles you stashed?

A friend who has taken responsibility for picking up over a mile of highway, tells me that the #1 form of roadside litter has become plastic bottles...filled with something other than water.

There is always some kind of bacteria present in any water unless water is perfectly distilled. I just checked dasani website and it says following “dasani is purified water enhanced with minerals for pure, fresh taste’. So there is honest confession from bottled water manufacturer that it is not just pure water. Water bottles indoors are not subject of temperature fluctuations typical to outdoors. I bet the combination of some bacteria, added minerals and temperature fluctuations will alter taste of the water over time.

I'm pretty sure plastic bottles will allow certain chemicals through. A device that I worked on depended on a diffussion tube, which deliberately leaked HF through its plastic ends. Also, choice of material was important for our reference cell, which had to hold HF within a certain range of concentrations...few materials would hold it well, definitely not plastics. Note the labels on foods in plastic containers saying not to keep them near strong odors. Many woods have odors near the ground it seems to me. Anyone with better info care to opine? Polymer chemists?

Dasani's different to a lot of waters in that it's filtered "tap water", and they can therefore add what they want. Spring and mineral water on the other hand has to be bottled at source, and cannot have any additives.

Though the spring water I've seen bottled came from a well in an industrial park.

chitownclark, The area were I usually train one of the more remote areas of a 40,000 acre park! If anyone/anything is managing to find my "cleverly hidden" stashes - usually under a small rocky out croup - and peeing in it, I would venture to say that it is a very smart bear or raccoon!
JJ's experiment is a good one. I am going to set up a few different bottles including an indoor control group to see what happens. I will also include some glass containers if I can find some.
BTW, even though the water tastes nasty, I have learnt to drink it quickly before the taste - slightly reminiscent of something dead - hits me... Ugh, I cringe just thinking about it!!!

Water is dead. Sorry to have to be the one to inform you of that.

So JJ is older than Bernie and remembers when the water was alive?

Dasani (a coke brand) is Brampton tap water - I saws' it on the tee-vee. It's delicious, though, and far superior to other water or combinations of hydrogen and oxygen.

I would be very suspicious of the actual materials of the plastic container, and your choice of container. There is residual monomer in plastics (left over from the reaction forming the plastic) which will be extracted into the stored fluid with time, not withstanding any degradation of the plastic with time and exposure to energy sources such as UV radiation. Plastics used for contact with foodstuffs have lower monomer levels. These are regulated in the US by FDA. However if you pick a container which is not designed for foodstuffs - caveat emptor!

However you are more likely to observe issues related to the actual content of your "water". There are plenty of organisms in any water source we normally use. Initially the water may contain dissolved oxygen which will be slowly consumed by, for example, aerobic bacteria. Ultimately the oxygen is depleted and the aerobic bacteria die, leaving the anaerobic bacteria to reign. Your water will be stale and unpleasant tasting by this time, and likely extremely malodorous.
The biochemistry of groundwater is very interesting!

Bernie, I know your stash. Almost. Once I passed there while setting AR controls. But which one of the million boulders is it? Maybe you could sell GPS coordinates of each stash and make a business out of it. -

I think the whole rehydrating frenzy is overdone. When I see people jog around with a water bottle around the track, I have to laugh. People don't break into sweat and drink like they were camels returning from the Sahara.

I run two hours in the Hudson Highlands or at Harriman without water, even in the summer. And in the end I push extra hard, to get used to run while dehydrated. The worst is the mental sluggishness that comes along with exhaustion.

I drink a lot of water in the hours before a long run or race. During the race I carry a small container with diluted Hammer drink. I drink during long races like the Highlander, about a bottle at each water stop/road transition.

Do you ever get a hangover after your long runs?

According to Wikipedia are PET bottles thermally degraded, which causes acetaldehyde to form. This not only have the effect of causing bad taste, but is also responsible for many of the hangover symptoms...

ok but doesn't it also say degradation occurs at 300 degrees C? Anecdotally, though, water in my water bottles begins to taste awful if in there longer than a couple of days. I've got into a routine of refilling them for every new trip. Anybody know what Nalgene is made of and if that performs better tastewise?

You have to worry about arguably worse stuff with polycarbonates/Nalgene (bisphenol A) than polyethylene terephthalate.

I would be very suspicious of the actual materials of the plastic container, and your choice of container.

Bernie isn't choosing bottles and filling them, he's buying sealed plastic bottles of water at the store, and something different happens when they're kept in the forest than when they're kept in the house.

Dasani [...] far superior to other water or combinations of hydrogen and oxygen.

Way tastier than peroxide.

Bernie is a bit older than I am.

It is funny how this thread intersperses with "why orienteers so strange" one :)

I thought this was a semi-worthwhile topic until it progressed to discussions about plastics and bacteria.

I did a couple of long courses (~3hrs for me) a couple summers ago where I wished I had carried water. It was pretty warm out (~low 90s not sure what that is in C or Kelvin?, but I think it's about 550 Rankine?) and I experienced some major cramping near the end of my runs (to the point of not being able to run). It seems to me that I can't drink very well at a water control, trying to guzzle water down doesn't work too well for me. I think I would be much more efficient carrying a small hydration pack for anything longer than about 1.5hrs depending on the heat. I never take water on my training runs, but I'm usually only out for less than 1.5hr. I also, have never tried a lumbar hydration pack, but I think that would be my first choice for orienteering/running. Needless to say, I'm much more concerned about my water intake now that I'm competing in longer events. Beer intake is always a concern as well, especially with a name like FrankTheTank... "Once it hits your lips it just tastes so good"

I use a Camelbak classic (2 liter capacity, no additional storage) for any course longer than Red. I'll use it on Red if it's really hot. Maybe it's because I train with one so frequently, but I don't notice even the slightest difference in getting through the terrain with it on, except on the rare times when the hose gets snagged on something. I'm quite sure that the time lost to wearing one is less than the time lost to grab water at a water stop (not to mention the fact that if stopping to drink takes your focus off navigation for a few moments - I know many people make errors leaving water controls).

I am not a fast person out on the course. I find carrying a water bottle or camelpak lets me skip the water stops and cut a minute or two off my already long time. Plus I help with the local events here in Texas that have 200 to 300 ROTC kids and Scouts show up to get there land navigation requirements. Unless it is a small park, 15 acres or less there is always someone lost and dehydrated. In short I guess I am trying to say it is more of a Safety thing with me then worrying about the competition.

Especially when the ROTC kids are running the event and they forget to wash the bleach out of the water containers before filling them up, so all the water on the course is undrinkable.