Discussion: GPS tricks

So how exactly can a GPS be used to help ones orienteering?
Note: this is strictly an academic exercise. Dont try these while orienteering :-p
I came up with 3 right off the bat....
- It can used instead of pace counting.
- Elevation could be useful. Especially on Rogaines at night.
- If you mark where you started it could give you direction and distance to the start thus giving you an idea of where you are.

what else?

Actually, please do try these while orienteering, on a training course or a local meet that allows use of GPS. Let's see if we can get this out of the purely theoretical and determine if it's actually practical.

I was thinking I might have a go at Pawtuckaway this weekend...if anyone has some concrete instructions for how to, I'd be willing to give it a shot. Not a very large n, but a start.

For broader GPS usage (and not just Garmin)

I tried using GPS on an Adventure Run last year. I purchased iTopoMaps for the iphone, which overlays your location onto USGS map. It's a cool app, not free, but was absolutely useless for me when I tried to use it as per
my log.
I think this would be useful in extreme cases of being off-map or maybe in Night-O.

Easiest thing to try might be to have a screen that shows "lap distance" and take a split at a known location. Now you can use the lap distance as a pace count for either primary information or as a catching feature.

Even thinking about this simple thing makes my mind boggle. If I'm navigating and concentrating, why would I want to keep looking at my watch?

But keep the ideas coming! I promise to try at least some of them!

Some rather unimaginative cheating there. How about getting someone to go round early, set locations at each of the controls. You then take the same GPS round on your run. You run properly, but can use the GPS as confirmation when you get near the controls to point you in the right direction. If you get to a good AP it will just work as a perfect compass bearing to the control. Good if you want to travel in straight lines, and still helpful if you don't. Requires an accomplice.

True Becks - none of us want to bother doing this stuff even in a local meet (I was hoping you'd try so I don't ever have to :-), why would we do it in an important race?

Nixon's idea could be slightly modified and double as a terrain running exercise for runner #2...

GPS will help get to the meet location in time for registration and beginner instructions.

Nixon, is it really accurate enough for that? I've heard it a ton of times now, but all I know is when I upload my track to quickroute, I have to adjust almost every point to get the trace to actually hit all the controls. Why would it be different out in the forest?

I could get Ian to record a course though and then try to re-run it?

It still sounds like more of a distraction than a use though.

I have organized events where I explicitly made GPS a legal navigational aid. I even tried to encourage that use by providing georeferenced maps, coordinates for control locations, and a 30 minute prerace planning period (also good for beginners to ask questions).

I have yet to see anyone take advantage of this in a way that enhanced their results, but I hope that someday I will. The fastest runners have not needed to rely on any devices.

It is only the weak navigators that would need this aid to win, I think. And maybe for the intermediate navigators, it will let them try more advanced techniques and advanced courses, but with a safety net if they screw up. But from what I've seen, strong confident navigators don't even need a compass to run fast and in the right direction.

As far as I tried out with the 305 it's not. I tried it out a few weeks ago in a open park, setting lap point at a very distinct point and then later on my way back tried to navigate to the same point using the watch as a kind of compass on the last 200 or 300 meters. My experience was:
a) it was very annoying using the watch as a compass, far more complicated to use than a real compass and taking concentration away from what I was doing. E.g. I had to often adjust the zoom factor on the navigation display when I was coming nearer to the point to get a good enought accuracy (starting with that zoom factor wasn't possible, cause the point would have been out of my screen).
It definitely felt like I needed to take a lot more (and longer) looks on the watch than I would have had to do with map and compass.
b) The accuracy wasn't super convincing, still not ended uo at exactly the same spot

Accuracy varies, due to the satellites available I guess. You also have to remember that orienteering maps or google arial photos aren't 100% accurate. Sometimes it's accurate and reliable enough to show you what side of the road you were on. Sometimes it's absolutely miles off!

That said, I don't think they are accurate enough and there is no way using a GPS to cheat would be any quicker for me (and for any vaguely good orienteer I imagine).

However, I was just trying to provide the best method of cheating with a GPS, if they ever become accurate enough.

People seem to be concentrating on how to use GPS to aid their navigation. Much easier to just programme in the whole course before hand...

But the course is not available ahead of time, which means GPS watch is 100% useless for athletes.

I have been running around on our Tuesday night training runs with the phone in hand and my IpBike application using OOM data. In town type environments it's accuracy is good and having the map auto rotate and always have you position marked is good.

With some software work (I am not contemplating doing it it) you could have an app where you would take a photo of the map at the start, the north lines would give some reference for getting the scaling right so tha app could get a fairly good projection setup. Now running with the phone in hand with the map and course on it I think would give a good advantage, it would be fairly hard to make a big mistake which if you had the legs would allow you to push more on some occasions. To be really usfull in the circle you would need to get the projection spot on which as we know from using routegadget is not easy.

My question would be that if you are at a meet, you ran your course using a GPS device (knowing that it was not allowed) and you were now going to talk about your route, would you have route choice comments, would you know that you passed that reentrant system on your right, would you know where you ran? Would this mean that people would quickly see that you didn't "orienteer" but used other strategies? I don't know the answer to this question.

I've been on the AP record for several years now saying that the biggest current GPS advantage would be an iPhone with an app in it similar to what Ifor describes. You could either pre-load maps or take a photo of one at the start, and a few screen taps later (within just a few seconds), you'd have a georeferenced orienteering map on your screen showing your exact-ish location. The iPhone also has a compass built in, so the orienteering map will always be pointing the right direction. You could also screen tap any desired location (examples: control or attackpoint), and the app could display a giant arrow on the screen for you to follow, and distance to that location.

You'd still have to physically get there. And you'd still have to mentally choose the best route.

If we want the sport to grow and be popular with the kids, I think we need to embrace this sort of technology. Location-based apps are all the rage at SXSW, for example, and kids these days are used to sharing their locations all the time. Essentially, we have the location-based sport, so it makes sense for us to promote this. Or if not promote, to not discourage, at least.

We don't play with wooden tennis racquets any more.

Could we outlaw phones? Many golf courses don't allow them and (from another thread on AttackPoint) golf seems to be similar to orienteering. Maybe this is an inappropriate comment but I think that somehow the boundaries need to be made as to what is appropriate and what is not.

I think Nixon's technique goes outside the bounds of what we're discussing, as it's not that dissimilar to having a clubmate with an early start take an old copy of the map and draw the course on it, so that his friend can work out his route choice decisions in advance of his late start. Or in the days of pin-punching, carrying an extra punchcard around the course so that a later starter could just shortcut to the finish. The idea is to come up with ways that a GPS device can be effectively used to navigate without adding in other things that are generally considered cheating.

Patrick's iPhone idea probably has some potential, though I don't think the app exists yet, and I suspect it will be more awkward to use effectively than you might think. Outlawing phones may be problematic, because in some cases you might want people to carry them, since they can be more effective than a whistle. You might want to just require that they be turned off, and trust people to actually keep them turned off. There may be a concern if somebody wants to use his phone as a tracker, but I think you should still trust him to keep it in his pocket.

As for a category where people are allowed to use the phone/GPS, sure, bring it on!

Speedy, as my first post said, you need an accomplice to go round the course first and then set a location at each control.

jjcote, yes, it's a very elaborate verstion of the pre-punched control card or getting someone to draw you the course, except for the fact you can have a watch that will always point "exactly" in the direction of the next control. This means that you do run the course (unlike the control card technique) but you don't need to actually ever navigate (unlike seeing the course before).

Unequivocal cheating, if people can get it to work.

Becks, accuracy in QR isn't that good because you have gps error, map error and calibration error combined there, easily 100 meters. In Nixon use you have gps error only, most of the cases is takes you about within 10 meters from control.

Your thinking seems to be limited to gps vs map+ compass. Why? Compass is useless tool too if you don't have map. It becomes useful when you integrate your compass use with your map use and your navigation technique as whole. Of course gps is useless if you use it as your only navigational tool. But note, ones navigational skills doesn't magically disappear if they peek gps too if needed.

Let somebody pre-run course and save controls as waypoints. Put map view on and zoom it to nice level to be used for last 100-200 meters of each leg only. And then don't touch buttons. Then run course as you normally do, but when you approach control you may peek gps map view to steer you straight to control. You can also skip having attack point near control, instead try hitting control with simple bearing further away without reading map and fine tune your way to control with gps near the control. Instead of reading details before the control / around attack point you could always memorize details close to control/inside ring and read control descriptions, so when gps takes you ~25m from control you can identify those details and find the control hidden behind the rock.

Without pre-recorded waypoints it's more difficult and needs practising. Best would be having map view on at some zoom level. Then if you are unsure you can you just peek at your tail to see have you turned left or right lately and use that information to guess your location out of two options and avoid a parallel error. and save controls as waypoints. If course winds back you can use previous controls to estimate your location if you think you are about to make mistake.

No one masters that all yet, because no-one has been training it for years like we have been practicing our map and compass. But it's fool to think there is no room for GPS information, and smart young elite athlete with 3 years of practicing would not be able to use it effectively when needed. If I think WOC long, Gonon did early big 5 min mistake, with just by peeking his GPS track and location compared to previous control he would have easily turned that 5 min mistake into 1..2 minute one. Just gps practicing needed to integrate it to your normal nav to not make it distract you, and to make you know how and when you should use it.

GPS issues isn't about novice beating elite athlete with GPS. It's not going to happen. It's about true elite orienteers some with GPS and some without. Think of true elites integrating this simple GPS tail peeking in their navigation tool pack and polishing it to perfection. Surely it would result in less big mistakes.

Jagge is true (also) in this respect. In reality, with the use of GPS, you are more able to minimize lost time, rather than completely avoid it. Here's three examples, where I used my GPS effectively:

1. Hungarian Night Champs 2009 - butterfly in a vague green hillside. When I first got to the central control, I hit one split. This made me minimize my errors (still about a minute each) when coming back to this central control. I only peeked at mywatch, when I felt in trouble.

2. WOC VIP race 2011 on Le Revard. This was just the day after the jury (which I was a member of) DQd Martina Zvěřinova for wearing a GPS watch. On the way to control 8, I passed my control 13 and hit a split. Terrain was difficult enough, that after 80 minutes of running, I only used the GPS watch to "navigate" the leg control 12-13.

3. Hungarian Night Champs 2011. The course was in a small area with a lot of crossings. At some point, I crossed a big clearing, that was not on the map (it was new as we got to know later). I checked my GPS watch for my former routes and then it was quite clear, that I was where I supposed to be. No pani, no time lost.

So it can be really helpful, as I proved to myself. Still, I feel it to be better promotion than help. Just think about your level in this sport, how serious are you with your own personal results, etc. How much you care about anyone else "cheating" with a GPS-watch. In Hungary, we will for sure not ban GPS-watches, because all-in-all it hurts the sport more, than how much it helps. If you want to go back to the basics, just don't actively use the GPS-watch during your race.

Following is cheating too, but none is banning it or enforcing the rule :)

If everyone had a GPS, the following rule would be easier to enforce! :P

A GPS without a display is still a GPS!

I'm glad at least some of the proponents of the 305 are admitting it can be used for navigation with beneficial results. I'd like to start seeing its proponents' confessions about what it is that they like over a no-screen logger, other than the accuracy, that is enough to start writing petitions and threaten civil disobedience.

I don't even own one, but I can name three advantages:
1) Using the 305 doesn't require buying a redundant piece of equipment.
2) There are already convenient software tools to download and utilize the data from a 305, not so much for other devices, and not just anybody can create their own.
3) The 305 is a familiar device for those who own them and use them regularly, so that they don't have to fiddle with something different for a big race.

Note that even though some proponents are admitting that a 305 could be used for navigation (I'll take your word for that, I'm not going to read back through to figure out who you're referring to), they aren't asking to use them for that purpose. If there's a ban, then somebody who wants to cheat would just put the 305 (or some more capable device) in his pocket at the start. Not allowing it to be carried openly means that either a) it's believed that people can't resist the temptation to peek, or b) people are lying and actually want to use the watches to cheat. Only T/D seems to be in category a), and it's kind of insulting to suggest that people are in category b).

who you're referring to

I believe less used a 305 with spectacular results, not considering what he did cheating. Where does that fit into JJ's world?

Arguments 1 and 3 clearly put a device ahead of the sport. Argument 2 is not exactly true; most of the tools that work with the 305 also work with the Qstarz recorder, for example (correct me if I'm wrong—I don't have a Qstarz).

"Spectacular" is a matter of opinion. It also wasn't clear to me that he didn't consider it cheating. And I'm not concerned about one Hungarian using his watch, any more than I think we need to institute drug testing at US Championship meets. If the rule clearly says that you're not allowed to use the GPS to navigate, that should be sufficient.

The rules also say you aren't allowed to follow. Is that sufficient?

put a device ahead of the sport

Not quite sure what this is supposed to mean. For many of us, the sport of orienteering involves having fun and striving to improve at a mentally and physically challenging activity. Apparently there is some antithetical view of the sport of orienteering held by some, in which having fun is not an important value, and something else is the real reason why we spend our time and money going to meets.

So perhaps I have been attending o-meets for over 30 years for the wrong reasons?

The rules also say you aren't allowed to follow. Is that sufficient?

Not sure where you're going with this, but I'd say apparently so. It's not like we post anti-following marshals in the woods, and the inherent nature of the sport hasn't been destroyed by the fact that there are a few who seem to ignore the rule.

If I had, say, a 1200 m leg at night over bland terrain in a rogaine, using the 305 as an odometer would definitely require less mental energy. Similarly, knowing the number of meters remaining on the final return to the start/finish requires less mental energy and I think even provides a small psychological boost. These things probably would not matter to an elite performer, but I think would help a mid-pack person to bump up a few slots.

@fpb Rogaining has a rule prohibiting gps at ANY rogaining event under ANY jurisdiction, and probably for the very reason that rogaining maps are more bland and less precise, and half the event is at night. We are talking about orienteering here which has varying gps rules around the world with the effect that for 90%+ of events a gps is allowed - or not specifically disallowed - to be carried but not used for navigation.

I'm happy with the current IOF rule (which also applies in many other jurisdictions - except it seems the US) where a ban applies only to elites competing in world-ranking events. WMOC organisers probably also impose the rule, but to me that is the only event where there should be a restriction on non-elites. The reasons behind the rule are obvious - if someone won a world championship or became world no. 1 through cheating with a gps then it would probably be one of the few times that orienteering would make mainstream media news, and for the wrong reason. But no media, and 99% of the population would be in the least bit interested in a story about a W65 using a gps to win the US age class championships.

If said W65, or anyone else wants to cheat in any race other than an elite WRE or WMOC, firstly they are cheating themselves and secondly they will soon be found out and either be quietly taken aside to be given some friendly advice, or they will be ostracised.

Let's embrace newcomers using gps and even help them to do it so that they are attracted to orienteering and can learn the real skills more quickly.

The level of demagoguery held by those welded to their 305s apparently has no limit—if you can't use the beloved 305, apparently the music stops and all the fun is gone! how did orienteering exist for 100+ years? were all these people in the dark ages suffering in toil on their funless courses? Apparently if you don't love the 305 to the extent of civil disobedience, you are against fun! I respectfully retire from this and related discussions, and will use my 305 in a full-on mode to aid my navigation whenever possible. You wanted toys, let's see where the toys get you.

Hey, bear in mind that your hypothetical W65 (actually, she'd be an F65 here) would be competing for a valuable medal. (Or a rock, at many lesser meets.) Although, considering that the margin of victory in F65 last weekend was significantly larger than the winner's total time, maybe it wouldn't have been quite enough to make the difference.

The biggest loudmouth demagogue on this issue may well be me, and I don't even have a 305. The only GPS that I own that I'd take on an orienteering course is a WRE-legal tracker.

So people want to carry their 305s for tracking purposes but not use them to navigate, and T/D responds by saying he'll use his to navigate. Can't say I follow that logic, but whatever. If anybody wants to use a 305 when orienteering against me to try and gain an advantage, I'm not going to complain. If T/D does it, I bet he'll beat me. Since he almost always does anyway.

The logic is that you have a fundamental fallacy in your comparison with doping control. Most performance-enhancing substances are detrimental to one's health, and that's the major reason they aren't widespread until there's serious money in a sport. A 305 is not detrimental to health; it's fun! Once the device is widespread, some people will be tempted to use it for navigation, some will use it, and some will benefit. It's now a different sport. I now retire fo reals.

Wilf Holloway, fertile ground here for one of your orienteering short stories.

Aw Vlad, don't retire just yet. I didn't realize that you were such a traditionalist, I generally think of you as someone who stirs things up :-)

Have you got those 6-color, 1:4000, ISSOM lidar based sprint maps printed up yet for tomorrow? I realize that's a pretty big departure from traditional orienteering, so I could probably redraft them all into a 1960's style map. How does 1:25000, black and white, and 10 meter contours sound? Printing will be easy (should be able to fit about 25 maps on one sheet of paper)

Of course we'd have to scrap most the control sites, but we can probably find two or three usable ones tomorrow morning. No need to overprint the courses, we can just let the competitors copy from a master map ;-)

I'm not a traditionalist, I have nailed many a control with the help of a barometric altimeter in training/while setting courses and I appreciate appropriate use of technology. People aren't stupid, and if something makes things easier, it will get used. Would driving around people at a road race score points for nontraditionsalism? methinks not. Defeats the purpose. Yet people have done that and have taken subways at marathons.

Subways should be halted during marathons to avoid temptation.

What respect remains for the serial comeback story? Promise to retire, and then return again Favre-like.

Actually, Wilf Holloway already addressed this (which is probably what gruver is alluding to). One of the short stories in "Murder at the 14th Control" is about a guy who wins the world orienteering championship, and then on the podium, confesses that he had been systematically cheating in various ways for several years. The story is basically a litany of methods than can be use to cheat. You'd think that since these methods are out there (and published, no less), that people clearly would have used them.

The biggest advantage, bar none, of a GPS device is the display which keeps track of distance travelled. It is relatively simple to mentally keep track of distance on a short leg but the longer the leg the more likely a GPS device is to be of help. Also the blander the terrain the more likely a GPS can help tell you your location in the absence of terrain features.
At the NC meet where our watches were covered I can't think of one leg where information on the watch would have been more use than information on the map.
Frankly I can't see what the fuss is about. The vast majority of us can look at binders full of maps where we pretty accurately traced our route after the race and without the prompting of a GPS generated record.
Organizer you are welcome to cover my watch any time you want. If you do please be prepared to check if other participants have uncovered their watch after the start and then slipped the watch in to a pocket just before the finish.

gordhun - putting the watch in your pocket so that the organizers do not see that the tape over the display was removed. Simple, effective, elegant. Truly an excellent trick!
You can go even further and just put the watch in your pocket at the start.

what's next? Frisking competitors in the call-up line to make sure they're not carrying?

Sounds like that may be the solution :(

If we don´t trust people actually wearing their watches in open there´s always a risk that they would hide them instead...?

Whenever i get a butterfly forking, I always take a split on the mass-control, then after doing one of the wings, and im 100m from the control, I turn the map screen on, and bam: I dont have to look at my map to find the control. Best of all: i get to do it twice!

Solution: don't have butterfly forkings.

Was that the reason you stuffed up at the butterfly control at Fossum? Or maybe you thought you were running in the Hungarian Night Champs?

I'll admit i dont do it during races, but in this case, my mistakes were going out of 2, thinking i was going to 5, and when making the blunder on leg 4-5, it was the first time hitting the mass control, so even if i did this trick, i wouldnt be able to prevent either of the mistakes.

Impressive you managed to dig that out. What did you mean by hungarian?

Reference to Hungarian night champs, in this thread. :-)

To me it was unbelievable that a credentialled orienteer such as yourself would actually use a GPS during competition. So I just used AP's search log function on "butterfly". Yeah the Hungarian thing came up earlier so I thought that was where you got the idea.

Biggins needs to add GPS button to Catchingfeatures. And similate heart rate monitor depending on efforts. Than everyone should be able to polish GPS enabled techniques to perfection :)

Well no, i didnt read through the thread. just a bad habit. I really doubt any use of gps is going to help get better time. Even if it were allowed to be running with an ipad with satelite photos, i doubt it would help anyone.

All right, so in the thread above Aron Less claimed to have used the GPS to his advantage in the Hungarian Night Championships, 2009 and 2011.

However I've looked up those results and Aron appears to be a "Did not Start" in 2009 and a "Did not finish" in 2011. So not much advantage there.

Országos Éjszakai Egyéni Bajnokság (The Hungarian Night Championships) 2011:
F21E (35) 16.0 km 29 ep

1 2117 96:24 Lenkei Zsolt 88 888369 HUN TTE Tipo Tájfutó és Környezetvédõ
2 2113 107:12 Kovács Ádám 86 505216 HUN ETC Egri Testedzõ Club
3 2124 108:57 Zsebeházy István 85 505219 HUN MOM Hegyvidék SE-MOM Tájfutó Szako
4 2104 111:10 Kerényi Máté 88 1300069 HUN TTE Tipo Tájfutó és Környezetvédõ
5 2119 113:54 Lévai Ferenc 74 45486 HUN SZV Szegedi Vasutas SE
6 2118 117:56 Magyar Zsolt 72 233672 HUN DTC Diósgyõri Tájfutó Club
7 2115 121:57 Szabó András 88 502912 HUN ETC Egri Testedzõ Club
8 2123 126:03 Harkányi Zoltán 80 5633 HUN SZV Szegedi Vasutas SE
9 2103 129:32 Viczián Péter 87 45242 HUN SZV Szegedi Vasutas SE
10 2112 133:48 Antal András 82 45980 HUN PVS Pécsi Vasutas SK
11 2133 140:09 Bereczki Máté 90 505239 HUN SZV Szegedi Vasutas SE
12 2120 140:36 Vonyó Péter 74 2009102 HUN PVS Pécsi Vasutas SK
13 2132 144:20 Szajkó Csaba 85 46004 HUN ETC Egri Testedzõ Club
14 2130 146:34 Antal Miklós 83 45981 HUN PVS Pécsi Vasutas SK
15 2131 146:53 Pápai Tamás 89 232755 HUN ARA Alba Regia Atlétikai Klub
16 2109 149:08 Fehérvári Zsolt 90 307517 HUN SDS Salgótarjáni Dornyay SE
17 2129 150:37 Oszlovics Ádám 85 46031 HUN MOM Hegyvidék SE-MOM Tájfutó Szako
18 2135 153:08 Tóth Ádám 86 502372 HUN GYO Gyöngyösi Tájfutó Klub
19 2127 155:57 Scultéty Márton 82 1200913 HUN KST Kõbányai Sirály Tájfutó Sporte
20 2134 157:09 Vellner Gábor 90 502391 HUN KST Kõbányai Sirály Tájfutó Sporte
21 2122 164:14 Ralovich Kristóf 85 1131182 HUN PVS Pécsi Vasutas SK
22 2102 173:53 Csõkör Zoltán 80 416670 HUN TTT Tatai Tömegsport és Tájfutó Ho
23 2106 188:19 Zsebeházy Zsolt 78 888361 HUN MOM Hegyvidék SE-MOM Tájfutó Szako
24 2116 194:36 Topán László 80 505256 HUN PVS Pécsi Vasutas SK
25 2105 297:03 Kiss Dénes 78 363486 HUN JMD Jászapáti, Mészáros Lõrinc Gim

2114 hiba Filó Bernát 90 990 HUN DIS DISZ Kulturális és Sportegyesü
2110 hiba Less Áron 80 45313 HUN DTC Diósgyõri Tájfutó Club
2125 hiba Kiss Gábor 80 411980 HUN KAL Kalocsai SE
2101 hiba Mets Márton 89 502915 HUN MOM Hegyvidék SE-MOM Tájfutó Szako
2128 hiba Kiss Gábor 80 2022152 HUN PAK Paksi SE
2107 hiba Kovács Róbert 86 45986 HUN PVS Pécsi Vasutas SK
2108 hiba Gyalog Zoltán 80 502370 HUN SPA Tabáni Spartacus Sport és Körn
2111 hiba Kemenczky Jenõ 67 307554 HUN SPA Tabáni Spartacus Sport és Körn
2121 hiba Novai György 75 505210 HUN SZV Szegedi Vasutas SE
2126 n.i. Szabó Zsolt 82 45326 HUN SZV Szegedi Vasutas SE


Országos Éjszakai Egyéni Bajnokság (The Hungarian Night Championships) 2009:

1 144 Novai György 75 MEA Miskolci Egyetemi Atlétik 119:10
2 148 Krajèík Michal 87 DTC Diósgyõri Tájfutó Club 120:56
3 140 Domonyik Gábor 76 MEA Miskolci Egyetemi Atlétik 124:46
4 142 Cserpák Zsolt 79 NYV NYVSC-Nyírerdõ Tájfutó Sz 125:20
5 152 Magyar Zsolt 72 DTC Diósgyõri Tájfutó Club 127:18
6 137 Lévai Ferenc 74 MEA Miskolci Egyetemi Atlétik 127:29
7 135 Harkányi Zoltán 80 MEA Miskolci Egyetemi Atlétik 135:49
8 119 Józsa Gábor 83 TSE Törekvés SE 147:55
9 117 Antal András 82 PVS Pécsi Vasutas SK 153:56
10 145 Oszlovics Ádám 85 MOM Hegyvidék SE-MOM Tájfutó 161:19
11 143 Szajkó Csaba 85 ETC Egri Testedzõ Club 166:51
12 124 Mulder Nicholas XDAF Dél-Afrikai Köztársaság 168:02
13 141 Miskó Róbert 86 BSC Balatonfüredi SC 173:20
14 139 Papp Jácint 82 GOC Göcsej Környezetvédõ, Táj 179:07
15 120 Takács Krisztián 77 BSC Balatonfüredi SC 180:05
16 128 Ralovich Kristóf 85 PVS Pécsi Vasutas SK 193:18
17 115 Kemenczky Jenõ 67 SPA Tabáni Spartacus Sport és 215:51

126 Bogos Tamás 84 ARA Alba Regia Atlétikai Klub hiba
150 Balabás Péter Gergõ 83 DTC Diósgyõri Tájfutó Club hiba
127 Szundi Attila 80 DTC Diósgyõri Tájfutó Club hiba
122 Kovács Ádám 86 ETC Egri Testedzõ Club hiba
118 Zsebeházy Zsolt 78 MOM Hegyvidék SE-MOM Tájfutó hiba
131 Zsebeházy István 85 MOM Hegyvidék SE-MOM Tájfutó hiba
116 Pelyhe Dániel 84 SDS Salgótarjáni Dornyay SE hiba
133 Vonyó Péter 74 PVS Pécsi Vasutas SK hiba
129 Morandini Viktor 87 SPA Tabáni Spartacus Sport és hiba
132 Nyári Sándor 74 MCB Maccabi Vívó és Atlétikai hiba
134 Révész Gábor 77 MCB Maccabi Vívó és Atlétikai hiba
130 Pospisil Vit XKOB Kobra Bratislava hiba
147 Drenèák Tomás XAKA Akademik TU Kosice hiba
121 Tysz Adam XAKA Akademik TU Kosice hiba
151 Ferenczi Krisztián 87 ETC Egri Testedzõ Club n.i.
138 Szabó András 88 ETC Egri Testedzõ Club n.i.
123 Marosvölgyi Máté 75 SPA Tabáni Spartacus Sport és n.i.
136 Kerényi Máté 88 TTE Tipo Tájfutó és Környezet n.i.
125 Lenkei Zsolt 88 TTE Tipo Tájfutó és Környezet n.i.
149 Vereszki Tibor 76 TSE Törekvés SE n.i.

Results available at http://mtfsz.hu/index.php?option=com_wrapper&view=...

...lol

@ O-ing: In 2009, I was test-running; in 2011 I had problems with my lamp. Also I didn't enjoy orienteering, so I quit. If you understand Hungarian, my log entry is here: http://www.attackpoint.org/viewlog.jsp/user_4407/p...

Fair enough. I don't remember much Hungarian from the time I was there in 1981. However I did like the country and it's people. It was a very memorable trip. I'm trying to investigate examples of where people have used GPS to advantage - that is faster than someone reading their map properly. I haven't found one yet - your examples seemed like the closest and certainly sound viable theoretically. The sort of use you talked about above may mean that course planners may have to modify how they set courses. Personally I don't think it would take much to avoid the sorts of situations you talked about.

Is it more reasonable to ask course setters to change how they set instead of asking runners not to wear the devices? Just a question, I don't know the answer.

I think there's a difference between wearing the device and using the device (to navigate).

I think course setters have historically payed attention and adjusted to the current technology in our sport. Before electronic punching main concern was designing the course such that punching out of order is not a problem, or actually put a volunteer at a checkpoint to verify punch cards. After SI came it course designers were free to use much smaller areas for courses, and (one thing that I don't like) self crossing and, spaghetti like courses became fair trade.
Advances in map making has changed the sport alltogether allowing for introduction of technical middle races and detailed sprint courses.

So I think we might as well deal with a new technology and decide how it should be used instead of just ignoring it. (I realize one way of dealing with the GPS devices is banning them)

@Nikolay - good point regarding adjusting to current technology. Also it is true not just in orienteering but in every sport. I don't think there is sport that has not adjusted to modern times one way or another.

I'm trying to investigate examples of where people have used GPS to advantage - that is faster than someone reading their map properly.

Currently, I don't think you'll find all that many. The elites train with exclusively with maps and compasses, so of course they'll still come out on top.

But this isn't about now.

What if the elites started exclusively training with GPS-enabled "smart maps" (like an iPhone with a georeferenced orienteering map on display). I think within a few years, the elites would be faster, because they'd be practicing with better technology.

Any time you institute a new rule/technology, it takes time for it settle. The first year that college basketball allowed 3-point shots (1987), the average team only took 9 three-point shots per game. Within 8 years, it had risen to 17 shots per game, and it's been between 17-19 per game ever since.

Teams who practiced a lot of three-pointers took advantage of the rule early. UNLV's first Final Four team came in 1987, when they averaged 20 attempts per game (twice the attempts of their 1987 opponents, but not much above average in 2012).

Ever so slight tangent...

like an iPhone with a georeferenced orienteering map on display

Everyone interested in this should try the mobile version of World of O's Omap section page on their smart phone. If you're on a map that's been QuickRouted in the past, you can easily pull it up and get a dot for where you are. I think it's an awesome tool for beginners, kids, vetters, whatever. It would also be pretty easy to catch someone trying to use it to cheat to win, since looking at your smart phone on the course while running would be pretty obvious.

Before you trip, fall, and break it. :-)

This thread should be named GPS illusions. Tricks are something whores do for money that actually make a task easier.

Google has been working on augmented reality glasses. (may be you have seen recently Sergei Brin has been going around with a pair) Air pilots have been using similar this technology for years. Cristina any comment on that? It's been done at trade shows and research projects. As soon as someone finds a way to make money of it, there will be a product out, that will be much more comfortable to look at and follow.

@ Pink Socks - 'smart map' systems and iPhones are specifically banned (in the same IOF Rule clause 21.4 that - sort of - bans gps with a display): 'Competitors may not use or carry telecommunication equipment between entering the pre-start area and reaching the finish, unless the equipment is approved by the organiser. GPS data loggers with no display or audible feedback can be used. The organiser may require competitors to wear a tracking device.' Most organisers of major events also put a ban on anyone bringing a copy of a previous map of the area to the competition.

Elites will never be able to do what you suggest in a major competition, so why would they train for it?

Tricks are something whores do for money....

Or candy!

Or cocaine!

Hey, can you keep it clean? (not on topic I understand, this being Attackpoint)

Not the kind of trick you are looking, but a GPS trick anyway.
http://routegadget.net/gps/gpsloggersmartphonestuf...

Elites will never be able to do what you suggest in a major competition

Hey! are you calling um Swedish events non-major?

Hey, can you keep it clean?

I don't understand the question and I won't respond to it.

If this were a Lifetime Moment of Truth movie, this would be our act break.

I'm trying to investigate examples of where people have used GPS to advantage - that is faster than someone reading their map properly. I haven't found one yet

You may be aiming too high.

When I first started orienteering, not that long ago, since I naturally couldn't read a map properly and no one told me otherwise, I discovered that GPS and compass was an adequate way to get to a control where there were no handrails. It definitely eliminated the chance of a major error, and could mean the difference between coming in, say, 11th out of 12 versus 6th out of 12 in a small local club meet. Eventually I realized this wasn't sporting and stopped doing it (plus figured out that focusing on the map was more fun and interesting).

Obviously this is of no concern at the elite level, but it could be of concern to those in the middle.

@fpb - I think your described experience with GPS at first, then realizing that it's more fun without later is an excellent example of why GPS should be allowed at local meets at least and how orienteering community could benefit from allowing to use GPS as training tool for beginners. I will assume that your navigation skills have improved since you started orienteering. Do you think you are at the point where using GPS would not even help you enhance your standings?

Maybe not often, but I think it would still help. In complex terrain where I'm looking for, say, the 5th of 7 reentrants, knowing how far I've gone would reduce the chance of exploring the wrong one.

It's an easy substitute for pace counting, and as ample cognitive psychology literature has shown, the fewer things you have to consciously attend to, the better you will perform a task, with the effect greatest for beginners and least for experts.

@fpb - if GPS is used to measure distance traveled it does not really eliminate a thing that you have to consciously attend to. GPS is a temporary substitute to compensate lack of the skill beginners have not developed yet.

I don't quite agree - if I'm pace counting, I have to consciously attend to that at all times or I lose the number. If it's on my watch I only need to look every once in a while. This frees up cognitive space that can be used to maintain map contact, etc.

But even in the absence of pace counting, if I get to the reentrant that I think is the right one, then I look at my watch and see I'm still 100 meters short, then I've just saved some time.

I am at opinion that if you need to pace-count then you are not at expert or elite level yet. Pace counting is not wrong however more regular map training you have you become better at determining distances without pace counting. Similar in basketball - unless your name is Shaquille O'neal - more you practice throwing free-throws better shooter you become. Also good shooter instinctively knows how much strength to apply to each shot from any distance rather then stopping, evaluating distance to the basket, evaluating angles, oponents. Technically there is science behind each shot but practically instincts acquired by hard work in practice takes over during the game.

OK, I think we agree that GPS helps beginners and doesn't help elites and for intermediates the line is blurry.

@fpb - yep. First two times I tried orienteering I got lost big time. I was so discouraged that I thought this sport is not for me (even I instinctively understood the concepts how to navigate using map). My mom forced me to give another try (by blackmailing me...:)) and I won my age group third time trying. However I still remember how helpless I felt when I was lost as 12 year old. Hard to tell if GPS would have helped me if it was available back then but I can see how it could have eased the fear of getting lost.

One could argue that using a GPS actually hinders beginners from two aspects.
1. It slows down the acquisition of the skill of reading the lay of the land and matching it with the map in your hand.
2. It reduces the enjoyable experience of learning by trial and error.

As with a lot of things, the journey itself is more enjoyable than reaching the destination. For example, many people actually enjoy solving complex mathematical problems with manual calculations rather than reach for a calculator.

As a boy, I recall one parent insisting that his son run orienteering courses without a compass. I thought the idea odd, but tried it myself for quite a while, tackling increasing more difficult legs and courses without a compass and found that I could navigate quite competently without it and enjoyed the experience more. Even now, I rarely use a compass In rogaining unless I'm tackling legs of say over 1500m across flat ground in thick vegetation.

Particularly if you were to waypoint the Finish.

@MrRogaine - thought crossed my mind about hindering progress. But like with everything else - there are pros and cons to everything

I used to be math geek therefore I think you are referencing to complex arithmetical calculations in your example, not complex mathematical problems. Result of mathematical problems I used to resolve was formula or equation.

I think when I was 15-16 I thought use of compass is overrated and run few races without it. But after making slight directional mistakes I reconsidered.

Pretty much any learning aid can be used as a crutch. Eventually, the training wheels need to come off, but for a period of time they can accelerate learning. I don't think GPS technology currently makes a great training aid for beginners, but the potential is great.

Of course, the boundary between a learning aid and legitimate tool depends on perspective.

When I promote orienteering to scouts, I describe the orienteering structure as an extremely efficient (and fun) way to develop navigation skills. The highly detailed map becomes a training aid that supports highly accelerated learning, but it's not "real" navigation. For them, "real" navigation is done through wilderness terrain, with standard issue backcountry maps.

Of course, some orienteers start to take their highly detailed maps for granted, and never even bother to practice those "real" skills, like compass and GPS use :-)