Discussion: QuickRoute: Map Reading Duration

Will someone please explain to me how to use the new Map Reading Duration feature in QuickRoute?

I have entered my GPS route, but that graph does not seem to display anything useful.

http://o-training.net/blog/2010/11/21/automated-ma...

With links to the more detailed AMRD page.

I played around with using a phone's accelerometer. But I didn't have the patience to figure out how to make the most of the data.

As long as you have mapreading information in your GPX-file, it works well. You find the thoughts behind it here:
http://o-training.net/blog/2010/11/21/automated-ma...
(see also the AMRD-page where you can upload accelerometer data + GPX-file to get a GPX-file with included mapreading information - it is kind of involved the first times you try it though)

Here is an example - you can save the jpg-file and open it in the newest version of QuickRoute to play with it and see the possibilities:
http://omaps.worldofo.com/index.php?id=51449

I have an aging Garmin 305.

Do any of the newer GPS watches record accelerometer data that may be easily exported to QuickRoute?

I haven't heard of a gps watch with an accelerometer.

AMRD has a forum that has some info on accelerometers:

http://www.mapmania.ch/forum/

there are options to get footpods to go with your garmin forerunner and other gps watches. Would one of those attached to your arm instead of your foot work?

@toddp: There are no GPS-watches (or other GPS units) currently available with an accelerometer which can be used for the purpose

@jteutsch: Unfortunately you can't get the raw accelerometer-data from the footpods :(

Most is already said, unfortunately the combination GPS logger and accelerometer does not (yet) exist. Therefore you have to combine an external logger with a gps device at the moment.

I currently have experience with two acceleration loggers:

The cheaper way is to use the Gulfcoast X-6, the advantage is price (if you just have one unit), higher sample rate, it has an on/off switch. Disadvantage is size (more difficult to fix on your wrist), and its not water resistant.

I personally use the HOBO, advantage is size, easy to mount, disadvantage is that you need a coupler to transfer the data (which means additional cost), and storage capacity.

I had to disable the forum on mapmania.ch because of too much spam, feel free to post any questions here.

i can think of two other options, but they require some degree of computer savvy to mangle the data into an appropriate form. which is probably true in any case.

the double watch - use a TI Chronos ($57) with your regular watch

or strap one of these ($45) on somehow.

haven't gotten my mitts on the former, but i'd wager it'd work well. i've got the latter, and for general use, it's the bee's knees. if you're into measuring acceleration, at least. probably wouldn't make a great christmas present for mom. unless, well, yeah.

the combination GPS logger and accelerometer does not (yet) exist.

Aren't there a LOT of these devices on the market already? (and they also make phone calls! and connect to the internet! photos! video! digital maps!)

@ bgallup:
TI Chronos: jankoc played and some french developers played around with it, it has limited memory capacity so you have to process the data on the device. It seemed to be difficult to make a stable program.
Arduino: I've been thinking along these lines as well but you will need to have to have a robust case and needs additional technical skills.

@ Pink Socks:
agree, but most of these are too clumsy to carry around on your wrist and I personaly would be scared to break my iPhone... It might be that in the near future there will be a) cheaper and b) smaller smartphones available.
Let me modify it:
the combination GPS logger and accelerometer in a small, cheap and robust device does not (yet) exist

@bgallup: We used quite a lot of time with the TI Chronos, and got all the way to a working program on it where we saved accelerometer-data in a "smart" way to get around 40 minutes in the limited 8 kB memory. Unfortunately we got random hanging of the device during recording, so the recording never got all the way to 40 minutes (sometimes 5 minutes, sometimes 20 and sometimes all the way to 40). I never found the way around this, so stopped the development.
I've checked all the build-yourself stuff (like the Arduino), but when you want more than a single unit it does not look like a good way to go.

@Pink Socks: I've tested with some of the accelerometer programs on the iPhone and on Android, and even made/modified some myself, but there are some problems. On the iPhone you are not allowed to have the accelerometer going in the background, and there were also some issues on Android that I can't remember just now. I even got Gueorgiou to test an iPhone version of it, but he found it quite clumsy to run with the iPhone under the map, and it also influenced the compass...

I will see if I can work out a way of attaching my SE Active to the back of my hand. I have all the code for the logging in IpBike and was going to play with the accelerometer anyway as I was wondering if I could work out cadence biking and posible detect standing / sitting.

@Ifor: Sounds great! Please let us know how it goes!

Some time ago I experimented with phone's accelerometer, but I used it to log my stops (time & duration) to be combined with gps data. Nokia 5230, runs apps in the backround just fine. It's the same unit I used for O mapping, gps logging/ tracking and sometimes as head cam. unsubsidized price is about $130.

@mikee,jankoc
that's too bad about the chronos. seemed like a nifty piece of kit that could've been perfect. so it goes.

that adxl345 eval board, though, still seems a solid choice - depending, of course on your goals vis-a-vis a DIY or saleable product solution. it doesn't strictly have anything to do with arduino (arduino-friendly, certainly) - out of the box it's logging at 100hz to a fat32 uSD card with no need to learn a single thing about microcontroller programming or terminal communication. and writes it to a very clean (although hexadecimal) .csv file - but that's a short hop to cramming it into the gps format du jour via a readme/script/simple web app. i'd be curious, jankoc, to hear your reservations regarding being only good for a one-off.

granted, the form factor ain't product-pretty, but it's certainly hand-strappable. those battery clips are surprisingly strong, too - not that a rubber band wouldn't hurt. packaging/sealing wouldn't be brutal, either - I've been meaning to get around to taking it to the bandsaw and remounting/replacing the batteries, but flat might well be better for this.

but don't take my word for this - i'll try it out when the CSU park-o (plug!) gets rolling in April. Or earlier if the skiing continues to suck over here.

@bgallup: I didn't figure that you really get all you need to go right out of the box without building/programming anything there. That is except for packaging/sealing (which I need over here at least:).

Ideally I'd like a solution which you can buy without having to do anything (I've got several people asking who are not technical at all - and for my own needs I also don't want to have to do any HW-modifications with several units), but this is actually not too bad. I look forward to reading your experiences.

After a lot of searching, I finally found this unit http://www.geneactiv.co.uk/. It has all you need (i.e. small, robust, watersealed), but is very expensive compared to what you'd like to pay....

@bgallup: For pure acceleration logging this looks ok, a bit clumsy though. Regarding data import I could adapt the script on my homepage if you intend to use it.
Regarding Arduino I was more thinking along the line to combine an acceleration and a GPS unit on one board so that you don't have to combine those data in a second step. This is one of the cumbersome things you currently have to do with all solutions.

@mikee, have you spoken with Mats about setting up Quickroute so that when you start a new qrt project you have an option to choose your accelerometer data file separately from your gpx file and map image file? This would be the simplest method for most people no?

@jteutsch, no I haven't spoken to Mats regarding this. At the moment I'm happy that he supports mapreading for display. It's not only adding the file but you also have to decide how to filter the data and how to do the calibraion. I'm glad that I still have the control over these steps for my own work. Maybe he will add the direct support once the method is estabilshed and becomes popular. Currently there are only a few users.

Looks like the new Suunto Ambit has accelerometer, but I dont think it records the raw data. I believe it uses it just to fine tune gps track, like near tall buildings, tunnels and such.

every android mobile has an accelerometer. there are some apps which are able to record them.
i can recommend sensor insider pro:
https://market.android.com/details?id=com.lucanate...

but there are some more. also some gratis apps.

@Jagge: As far as I could see from specs, you could not get raw data.
@mo: I've tried several (I even bought a few apps), but none I found give you accelerometer-data while in sleep mode (i.e. when the screen is off). Also, you have the same problem as discussed for iPhone above. If you have one that works, I'd be interested to hear about it.

sensor insider prevents the phone from sleep. so it will only log all the time, when the display is on.
it seems to be a known issue that androids apps are not able to get accelerometer data during sleep. ( http://code.google.com/p/android/issues/detail?id=... )
but it also seems to be not a problem of all versions. and there are some work arounds that work for some mobiles..

@mo: Yes, that's my conclusion as well. I tried to make my own App for it as well (via Phonegap) and found no possibilities for my phone model at least. I tried with the display on, but then the program would randomly stop execution because I touched something with the map etc.

I browsed a little but I could not figure out - is there somewhere scripts to be downloaded to make analysis for raw data? And example files of raw data format script can use and maybe example files of gpx files with such analysis. Maybe it's time to power up my 5230.

Fun yes, but not sure how useful data actually is. I mean, if you read too much if should shows in your speed (aka hesitation), so you can get grip of it that way. And if it does not slow you down it doesn't matter that much either. And not reading enough or often enough is never reason for mistakes, just a symptom. But i guess you can't tell without trying it out and seeing how it ends up.

@Jagge: There is an online php-script which can do the job for you here - including sample input files (if you don't want to start off making your own algorithms at once):
http://www.mapmania.ch/amrd/index.php?show=amrd&la...

When you run the script, you get an example gpx-file out - I could upload a sample file, but I haven't got one handy just here.

Regarding usefulness of data, you can read about one use case here (Norwegian) - including a powepoint presentation,
http://sprint-camp.blogspot.com/2012/01/spennende-...
Here it was used to get a verification compared to the theory.

See also this sample where mapreading of different runners is compared:
http://3drerun.worldofo.com/2d/?analysis=1&anid=38
Here it is used to understand differences in technique, see problems with the technique of certain runners, etc.

Martin Lerjen has been working quite a lot with it - documented here (mostly in German),
http://o-zeugs.blogspot.com/search/label/Automated...
Several interesting use cases there in my opinion.

> And if it does not slow you down it doesn't matter that much either. And not
> reading enough or often enough is never reason for mistakes, just a symptom.
I think the most important tool is for the runner (and especially the coach) to understand and remember what really happened in the forest, and to compare performances. And also to understand the difference in technique compared to other runners who are more successful in certain parts of the terrain. But the technology is still quite young for me, so my thoughts might change along the way...

I am pretty sure that Motorola Motoactv http://www.motorola.com/Consumers/US-EN/Consumer-P...
sports unit besides GPS has/uses accelometer. It is Android based and hackable http://www.uberphones.com/2011/12/motorola-motoact.... So probably it is possible to run custom home baked GPS/Accelometer data logging app.

@andzs: I have looket at it. When you root it, it should be possible to access the accelerometer and write an App which does it, yes. There is nothing built-in which gives raw accelerometer data as of now though, and writing the App is not going to be entirely straight-forward I would guess (there is e.g. the issue with screen off/sleep mode and accelerometer on Android). But as of now the MOTOACTV is the unit which looks to be closest to give you the GPS/accelerometer combo (I nearly ordered one:).

@jankoc: According to manual with power button you can switch display off during workout to save battery and Motoactv native app still will track progress/measure distance from accelerometer data.

With purpose written app it should do the trick.

My phone seems to log raw accelerometer data nicely in sleep mode and simultaneously with gps logging. I just need to do a little bit formatting to be able to upload it. But it might be better if I could analyze data on the fly to get the map reading data included to the live gps tracking stream.

@Jagge: Sounds like those Nokia phones are some nice gadgets... On-the-fly analysis would be very nice.

@jagge: what phone do you have? an android? which version?

I tried it with Nokia 5230. I wrote Python script - or actually copy pasted it from python manual pdf, there was almost ready made example script :)