Discussion: The concept

If the park allows the event next year, here's the concept; I'd like to bounce ideas around before we apply for the permit.

The event will be A to B to C; A will be announced in advance (and that's where everyone will park their vehicles), B and C will remain secret until the event. A to B will be a 20 hour rogaine, and B to C will be a 12 hour rogaine, with a mandatory 8 or more hour campout in-between. We will shuttle the participants from C to A (except see bikes, below).

For the sake of simplicity, ignore the DST change. The A start will be at 10 pm and the B finish, at 6 pm. The course will be such that a number of good teams (say at the World Champs qualifying level) will be able to clear out the A/B course and come in early. They then will be able to start the B/C correspondingly early, 8 hours after they finish, with the rest of the crowd cheering on.

At B, we'll have food. We will transport some of the equipment—not a lot—to B. The idea is there will be a hard limit on this, per team or per person, to induce choice as to what to carry, but not forcing to carry way too much. The reckless ones would then not paint themselves in a corner if they attempt the voyage underdressed (this past weekend, some of the top teams did exactly that, and suffered accordingly). The limit has to be there because, as we just found out, if there isn't then we'll have to procure far more vehicle capability than our permit would ever allow (and than people will be willing to pay for).

The B start will be at 2 am, and the C finish, at 2 pm. There will be a bike division, and for this first year we'll send bike teams on A to B to A—to shuttle bikes is a bit too much for us to pull off.

I am thinking of the possibility to have "challenges" at B, for which people would get additional points and/or more time to finish, and am open to suggestions to which challenges can keep this a fair experience and not an entertainment circus (a 1 hour geocaching segment is probably fun and fair, juggling fishes while singing a tune from Dancing in the Rain and spinning hoops is not).

The whole point is that everyone participates in the same event. No proliferation of formats or divisions, although we sure will score the results in several age/gender categories. (We may relent and do a separate 4 hour rogaine around A on Saturday.) Those without much navigation or endurance background will hike A to B, camp, and go B to C, perhaps staying entirely on trails and only visiting bike checkpoints. A rogaine doesn't work as well, since you can't provide an outdoor experience for those without much of a navigation/endurance background, those who just want a leisurely hike. With this (~= mountain marathon) format, they can look forward to accomplishing something—a 15-or-so-mile hike, at least—and hanging out with a crowd at B, hopefully imbibing this whole outdoor thing—night travel, self-reliance, teamwork, and attempting to go cross-country, off-trail with easy fallback options.

Please comment! Henry Coe is one of a few places where this looks possible, for now.

I like the concept of the extended rogaine. I'd like to see it kept simple. Specifically, 20 hours followed by an 8 hour rest and then another 12 hours sounds reasonable, if a bit mellow.

Not interested in the mid-point challenges; could make it seem gimmicky.

Not sure I understand finishing A-B early and then starting B-C early. Does that mean you just get to run more in the dark? Or do you actually get more time to find controls on B-C with the same finish time as everyone else? And if I'm sleeping for a 2 AM restart, not sure I'd like the noise and cheering for someone going off at midnight.

Again, keep it simple. If it gets complicated you'll need too many volunteers to pull it off.

Would look forward to this. The precise contours and control locations made Henry Coe a pleasure for navigation. And I might even bring rain gear.

Or do you actually get more time to find controls on B-C with the same finish time as everyone else?

This indeed. If you clean out the A to B, you get more time to do B to C.

I have a logistical question about bikes...

Everyone parks, meets, and starts at A Friday night.

And then everyone meets again at B on Saturday night, which is where food and basecamp will be (everything except the parked cars, seems like).

And then at 2am Sunday, runners will head to C, and bikes will head to A? That means that the second maps/courses for each will be different, and you'll need two separate finishes with staff, right?

Seems like this would be a hit with the adventure racer/rogaine/orienteer crowd. I'm curious how this will resonate with "adventurous" regular joe types (that camp, hike, do mud/obstacle runs, wild canyon adventure, etc).

My wife and I did our first and only Mountain Marathon in England (Saunders) this past summer and loved it...

-I would can the "tests" at B...the format is interesting/challeging enough...

-I like a set O course as an option rather than a staged rogaine but that is just my personal preference.....like most divisions in a Mountain Marathon....and some offer the "score" class also....

basically I am saying: copy the mountain marathon format for this event....LAMM, Saunders, OMM...

Yes I'd love the bikes to head to C, but it will break the organization to try to shuttle the bikes back. Getting the teams' gear to the aid station was a big, big problem this past weekend, since we underestimated how much there would be, and this necessitated three truck roundtrips instead of one, with the permit being for two.

The courses for the bike teams and for the foot teams will be quite different. The latter will be a superset of the former. This way there will be super-easy-trail controls for the hikers.

The problem with a set of set O courses is that for a lot of the teams, they won't be able to adequately estimate their abilities beforehand, will sign up for something they aren't qualified to do, and will suffer. There was a team this past weekend that was adamant that they'd max out the SI-5 with its 30 or so capacity. They got 6 controls in 24 hours.

you could still offer a set O course with the following modifications to handle you concern listed above (the "over our head" teams)....

...assign a time limit and severe penalties for missing it to point B and to the finish...allow people to skip controls to meet it and assign a severe penalty for each missed controls (1 hour? 2 hour? 3 hour?)...I have used this and it results in people getting back on time and gives the slow people a "finish" and "finishing time" (no matter how bad it is with penalties added in) as long as they get to the finish line each day....this yields fair results...

tip: you gotta make the penalty for each missed control steep....

also, you plan for the top 75% of the field to not have to skip any controls to make the time limit on the two courses you set...only the back 25% has to consider skipping controls and managing time to get back to the finish to avoid additional time penalties....

Perhaps the racers could drop off the bikes at B on Friday well before the start, and there would be volunteers and/or locked storage until the racers arrive.

You could also consider a common finish: A-to-B; C-to-B.

Or A-to-B; B-to-B (transport day 1 only)

Or A-to-A (no transport Friday); B-to-A Saturday (transport on the day where everyone is already onsite, not on the day everyone is rushing to arrive.)

If I'm a weekend warrior type who hears about this race and is thinking about participating, I'd rather there be more points available if you're better than you think you are, than negative points and penalties if you can't pass muster.

A score-o format is such a great one-size-fits-all option.

My guess is that the traditional orienteers are going to resoundingly appose the "bonus" events, but that newcomers will consider them to be a perk.

Can the bike people finish at C, and then just ride their bikes back to A? Or is that too far and nasty?

The current thinking is that the first stage will be doable under the time limit for World Rogaining Champs-qualifying-class teams. (For last weekend's rogaine, I'd draw the line at 1400 points or so.) Everyone else should skip. If it's the other way, more like 75% teams can do it, then this becomes a timed race with exceptions, not a scored race with a few clean-alls, and people don't feel well about being a wrong-end exception.

Since we have to not lose money, I would want to be inclusive and have the minimum challenge be such that a minimally prepared team can do it, such as my example 6-checkpoint getters.

Perhaps the racers could drop off the bikes at B on Friday well before the start, and there would be volunteers and/or locked storage until the racers arrive.

I'm not sure I communicated the logistical context correctly. Point B will have no public driving access. Only A and C will have driving access.

Can the bike people finish at C, and then just ride their bikes back to A? Or is that too far and nasty?

Yes, yes, and yes, and also I don't want them trying to make it to A on a state highway after dark on Sunday.

Point B will have no public driving access.

I'm hoping this means that the organizers will have private driving access! I think most people will enjoy a more comfortable basecamp environment (warm food, tents, lights) rather than having to rough it with less gear.

I assumed A, B, and C were hypothetical locations, not actual spots you have already selected.

They did a fine job this past weekend at the remote aid station with hot drinks, soup, other food and pasta. Plus enough gu to klister your skis.

Yes, driving access for us at B, not for the public.

"They" = Nadya Popova -- maybe singlehandedly.

Rex helped. So plural. Couldn't find anyone else to help up there. Three of us at the hash house, though.

I would be in favor of keeping things relatively simple--no extra gimmick event in the middle. I can't imagine that any teams that are seriously interested in taking full advantage of the 32 hours of the main navigational challenge are going to be up for anything beyond the basic eating, sleeping and route planning during the 8 hour mandatory rest period. Anything extra you do during that 8 hour period is going to demand some sort of supervision from your personnel, and with the focused arrival and departure times from the mandatory intermediate start point, I imagine the people working there are going to be kept plenty busy anyway for the start and end of that time period. If you get permission from the park to put on the event, there is at least one team that will be planning on a repeat visit to Henry Coe!

Thanks everyone for the responses. I would like to crowdsource some more.

There are two primary motivators for going to the A/B/C format. One is that I'd like to offer a format that is similar to how other park users already play. This park is so huge, and to get anywhere requires so much outright climb, that day hikes aren't practical and a lot of people opt for multi-day hikes. Similarly, most of the active users are bikers, not runners, because you just can't get anywhere running unless you are fastpacking. Therefore the destination aspect, and a desire to involve MtB.

The other motivator is that this format, although sounding more involved from the organizational standpoint, hopefully can ease the organizers' workload. Only one location at a time need be staffed (if you ignore the fact that the bikers return to A while foot teams return to C). We were really stretched thin staffing two locations and serving food at both in parallel. The reason there cannot just be a classic rogaining single-hash-house arrangement is that the only places with driving access for the participants are on the edges of the park, and at low elevation. With this arrangement, there will be two food-service places, B and C, and food can be served by the same crew, which will also be able to get rest between the service periods.

Now comes the hard part: As others have convincingly pointed out, marketing this as a 40 hour adventure is not going to appeal well, at least not without much of explaning, to a lot of the people we'd like to attract for the first time. Adventure racers "got it", but that's about it, I felt that if I kept pushing the 40 hours we'd lose a lot of the rogainers as well, and won't get many of the O club members. Nevertheless the adventure is readily doable by a large number of people. It's about the same problem as marketing a 24 hour rogaine—most people who hear about it for the first time think of an excruciating ultraendurance challenge, which it indeed is for top teams, but there are also 80 year olds who find a checkpoint or two, and spend time in-between drinking wine at the hash house. The 24/40 hour plays well with media, since they are more likely to be alerted to this event than by something that is 4 or 8 hours, but it's detrimental to first-timer attendance.

So, the crowdsourcing question is, how do we market this? I am thinking something like "Hike/Camp/Hike... a weekend at Henry Coe... plan your own adventure!!" (unless Plan Your (Own) Adventure is trademarked). Any other, better one-liners?

Vlad - I think you are correct that pushing the 24/40 hour aspect will scare many away as it infers moving continuously over that period. I don't think you need to include the camp aspect in your promotion though - perhaps something like multi-day stage race. It let's folks know it's more than 24 hours, but also infers the rest aspect. Mountain Marathon would also seem to work though this differs from classic British MM's in being a score rather than line event. But such advertising might bring in some foreign teams or appeal to some domestic runners who have heard of the MM's but never travelled to Europe to do one.

I am concerned about "multi-day stage race" having any appeal to the hiker community at all. If anything I wouldn't call it a race.

You mention only staffing one point at a time, but I think you probably will need to keep at least one person at A until all have checked in at B and one at B until all have checked in at C. What if a team turns back due to medical emergency (especially returning to B after setting out for C) and finds it abandoned?

Well, A isn't exactly abandoned... people's cars are parked there. But this is a good point. But it's also true that organizers can't provide for every emergency, and that the team aspect is the sport's best safety instrument. At least one station will be staffed at all times.

Regarding staffing and and safety... if you aren't able to staff all three locations at once, would it be possible to have a walkie-talkie in a designated location at the unstaffed location?

Since you'll have vehicle access at A, B, and C, you can somewhat easily make it to any of the locations, provided that teams can get in contact with you.

We can try walkie-talkies. They didn't reach at our last week's setup, nor did a 0.5 W transmitter. We couldn't get more than one ham to help us, either.

Re: naming

"40 Hours" + "Race" sounds too intense for most. As does "Mountain Marathon"

"Hike/Camp/Hike" doesn't sound special enough for some to plunk down a significant entry fee.

Instead of "stage race", perhaps "rally" instead? Or perhaps "GeoRally" if the word rally alone is too associated with cars.

Yeah so what's like "Wild Canyon Games"? Geo-anything instantly redirects to geocaching. I like "trek", I don't think terraloco has copyright on it :) Something wilderness trek? Adventure wilderness trek? it would be nice if the camp/you can rest part could prominently figure in, too.

How about we just make up a word for it, using the names of the people organizing it. For example, if it's you and Rex, you can call it a Vlex. Or a Rad. Radventure!

Good idea. I'd suggest a Rexathon. Carries no negative associations, so you can define it as you wish in the event PR stuff. And have some fun with it.

One step further: T. Rexathon

Vladomania.

Vladomania

Sounds vampire-ish.

EcoStumble

EcoRumble

stagger across the landscape

I veto anything with Rex in it

unless it's something like MapTrex.

I like Adventure Trex.

Travel. Relax (recover). EXplore.

Whoa, one Google search later, and I find out that I had completely suppressed this memory from my childhood.

I like Adventure Trex, too, btw.

I'd suggest Expedition Rogaine or double Rogaine to describe the multistage rogaine, plus Backcountry Traverse or Ultra hike to describe the easier trail event. The 40-hr staged rogaine sounds a lot harder than a 24-hr rogaine - racers will be going on less sleep for much longer, and you have to carry more food and some overnight gear 20 hours to the mid-race camp. In normal rogaines many racers go 12 hours and have a break to resupply at the hash house. Also, you are going to offer a 40-hour staged mountain bike rogaine? I'd imagine the full course for this would be 200k or longer.

I have a suggestion for mid-race challenge that I would find acceptable and entertaining - Super Sprint String-O (though you would need a set of epunch gear at mid-camp). You could offer some bonus points for the fastest times, or a few minutes head start on stage 2. Final note: I think stage 2 should be a full restart for all teams, or else allow everyone to restart after 8-hr mandatory "rest" based on time they finished stage 1.

They can resupply at the camp (Point B). It will open and have their stuff about 12 hours into the event. The minimum route from A to B will be between 4 and 6 hours. Nobody is forced to stay out the full 20 hours, just like nobody is forced to stay out for 24 hours at a rogaine.

c'mon, Adventure Trex sounds like a breakfast cereal

breakfast cereal > hair tonic

"Wild Adventure Trex" and "Wilderness Adventure Trex" have zero Google hits. And take the flakes out of it.

I'm just waiting for someone to photoshop a cereal box cover with a picture of any of us and the title of the cereal. In fact, make a cereal to go along with the event brand. It will be prominently available at the hash house along with milk fresh from the cows of lower Coe. Or rice/almond milk if you prefer, but not soy.

VladEx SkyTrail

Vlad-dog Nighttraining 20-20

Vlad Adventure Trex = Very Long And Dark Adventure Travel Relax (recover) EXplore

There is an MTB race named "Cream Puff"

How about "Profiterole"?

40-hour Profiterole. Sounds like something I will sign up for without thinking twice.