Discussion: Pricing starts at training events

I am planning a training event for JROTC, at which each cadet will run a very short course solo, get their time and card scored and be debriefed, then run another very short course. Maybe 5 in all. The meet will be held on a school campus with a well defined perimeter. I think there is a perimeter fence; to be confirmed. My concern is fees. Would this plan constitute 5 starts per cadet, hence require the club to pay O USA the regular start fee x 5? Our normal meet fee for nonmember juniors is $5.

I also need some help estimating how much time to budget for each cadet on each course. Pace on our White courses in National Forest can be 100 minutes/km, and standard deviation is huge. Any rules of thumb? I suspect at this event the cadets may be even slower.

Interesting question - In any fee structure, there are sometimes gray areas, and you have described one. As you know, multiple events (such as a morning Sprint and an afternoon Sprint) count as separate starts. And if a participant chooses to do a second course at a local club event, that is counted as another start.

However, you have described 1) a training event 2) with very short courses 3) in which the activity is more or less continuous. You could almost think of it as a motala, with debriefing lessons between the loops. I'm pretty sure the OUSA orienteering honchos would be OK with you counting a single start per cadet for this event.

Have you considered making the event free? As we all know Orienteering is now a sport with mainly older participants. We are desperate for young blood. A price of zero could entice a future US Team member to try the sport.
(If not free, charge just enough to cover your expenses). Think of it as an investment in your club's future. If it is a free training session you shouldn't have to include it in your OUSA start counts.

If it is a free event, and we pay no start fee to O USA, would the insurance through O USA still apply?

It seems absurd that $1 payment for a start is the same for long events (e.g. 6 and 24 hr rogaine typically done by 2 or more people so actually $0.50 or less per person) as for short and very short courses for individuals (sprints, maze o , micro O, training events) especially as the shorter events are where the newcomers to the sport are more likely to be involved. OUSA needs to seriously consider the fee structure.... and BTW what do they deliver to the clubs for the $1 ?

what do they deliver to the clubs for the $1

Insurance, for one. And that would be no small cost to bear for a club trying to set out on its own.

Long advanced courses have more hours of exposure to risk, but short beginner courses are populated by beginners, and for them the risks per hour are higher.

Here's info from the OUSA site with respect to starts:
http://orienteeringusa.org/sites/default/files/fil...
How to Count Starts
For the calculation of the Club Dues component based on starts, you will need to go to your club records and do an actual count from either your start or results lists. No estimates! Starts should be totaled for every club-sponsored event in 2010 which generated a start, finish, or results list.
• Anyone running a course individually counts as one Start. A group of people running together with one result counts as one Start. Clubs should report the number of Starts by counting them off of the results or start lists.
• A-meet competitive starts are not included in this reporting requirement, as they are covered separately through A-meet Sanctioning fees. However, non-competitive (recreational) Starts at A-meets are included in this reporting requirement.
• Exception: Events whose entire net receipts are donated to USOF (for example, fundraisers for the U.S. Team) are exempt from this reporting requirement. If the receipts are split between the club and USOF, all Starts must be counted.
• Accuracy will be expected and counts may be audited. It’s a good idea to document your count if you can.
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I don't believe the amount paid for an event (even 0) is of concern...

I also don't believe there is a direct tie between the insurance and starts - the insurance (which is probably secondary or after primary insurance in any case) should cover the club and members acting on behalf of the club should anything go wrong during a club activity. (and this would be a club activity)

To get a level of activity from clubs, OUSA and the insurer have decided that the number of starts is the best indicator of club activity and general amount of participation. (I'm making an educated guess here - I'm not certain, so don't sue me;-)

As it is a designated training event, I might think it isn't going to count for starts at all, especially if you don't create a start, finish, or results list...

And btw - designating a free event as a fundraiser is probably not nice...-)

@ccsteve thanks! I've been digging on the site but didn't get that far. This entire discussion has been really helpful to me. Thanks, all!

Timing and results are expected. This will be a sprint format, and the instructors will be able to watch individual cadets at work. JROTC orienteering usually requires teams, often teams of 4 or 5, but at this event they will go solo. I am going to work it as a single sprint course with map exchanges, so one start per cadet. The course on each map will be a split. This should provide good info to help the instructors (and me) plan future training exercises.

if the $1 is for insurance then a team of 4 on a 24 hr rogaine is surely in a different category of risk to 1 person on a 15 minute sprint event (the person-hours of exposure is nearly 400x greater not even accounting for day/night difference)

Risk does not increase in proportion to the number of people on the team, and generally a team is safer than an individual.

I don't think this should turn into a discussion about insurance, but $1/start is just a way for OUSA to collect money money from clubs in a way that could be considered fair - clubs that run more/bigger events (and thus are more likely to be sued?) pay more over the course of the year. It's not like each individual is direclty paying $1 in exchange for something.

Anyway, I am more comfortable that the usual meet fee will be okay.

What about timing? Does anyone have data for beginners on sprint courses? What is a typical pace?

the fact is that the OUSA fee structure of $1/start if strictly applied to a training event (say with 5 or 6 short elements to it) would make it such that a relatively large sum would have to be paid out to OUSA . (e.g. an intro to O event for beginners with several fun short skill builiding segments with 100 participants could result in $500 fee (isn't that the kind of event we all want) .

"It's not like each individual is directly paying $1 in exchange for something" rather makes one think "well what does each club get in exchange for paying $1,000's to OUSA"

In "A" meets, a 2-stage sprint counts as a single race. Perhaps the USOF rule for club starts should be amended to agree with this. If you pay only a single fee, running multiple "stages" at a single event would count as a single start.

At one point, the board also discussed an exemption for free events. At the time, I thought this had been part of what the board passed, but I've been assured that it did not make it into the rules. It does potentially open some loopholes like the couple clubs that charge no fee for members to do local events, but I'd think that could be clarified with an additional line or so.

Pace on our White courses in National Forest can be 100 minutes/km, and standard deviation is huge.

Unless you're talking about an extreme outlier on the slow end of things, that's an indication that something is seriously wrong.

Unless you're talking about an extreme outlier on the slow end of things, that's an indication that something is seriously wrong.

Exactly. At the last meet we had one group of cub scouts with a leader who clearly can navigate. They were first timers. Their pace was 15 min/km. They are the extreme outlier. Most people on our White courses do finish but at a far slower pace. Worse, way too many do not finish.

What I think we need to do is totally change how we recruit and handle first time orienteers, so they do not go out on any classic type course until after they have mastered the basics of orienting their map. Our course setters include several expert orienteers who have relocated to New Mexico, and I have gone on other clubs' courses, so the problem is not in our course setting. The occasional fast pace by first timers on our courses shows that the terrain also is not the problem.

We need to stop politely asking first timers if they would like some coaching, and just build coaching into the check in process. When we ask, the majority say no thanks. So instead we're going to have registration, then a station where they get their map and we check them out on orienting the map and reading the control descriptions, then they go to the start. I want to have extra volunteers on hand to institute guided map hiking for the first timers who need help with the basics. It won't be offered, we'll just do it. I am going to start setting "warm up" courses for this purpose.

This relates directly to that other thread I started about how to orient your map.

Hm, while DNFs and long times on a white course might reflect a lack of ability/preparation/coaching, it seems more likely that the courses are too hard, whether because of course setting or lack of appropriate terrain.

Most people can read a street map well enough to be able to read trails and other really basic features on an O-map, and can get around a white course without orienting the map or getting any training. A trend of people not finishing or going much slower than 30 min/km would suggest something else wrong. This might be something that a few well-placed streamers could help with.

How do you use a few well-placed streamers?

I'm just assuming that the problem is the terrain - that perhaps the trails or other linear features are few and far between or hard to see.

That might not be the case... but if it is, then a few streamers directing people from one control in the direction of the next control can make a world of difference. A white course could be set such that you can see the first control from the start, and the starters can point beginners to it. Then the second leg can be streamered, or at least have a few to get people going in the right direction. From then on if controls are at vague intersections or if they use more difficult linear features, the streamers can be used to help the beginner identify the feature they need to follow.

Or perhaps you aren't asking what I think you're asking, in which case I just wasted 3 minutes of my life.

@Cristina: I think you have run on some of our maps so if you know there is a specific problem with our course setting please just explain it to me. I am not good at reading anyone else's mind, nor even reading between the lines.

Dnfs and long times, esp for groups of scouts or jrotc, may just indicate a focus issue. Frequently they come along for the outing or the activity that is on the schedule for that day. They will get the O badge and move on, never to be seen again. Groups will go out and meander along, checking out brooks, throwing rocks in the lake, have their snacks and eventually wander back in by the cut off time, if there is one. They will be in no hurry generally as once they are back they will just be hanging around the start waiting for the rest of their ride to return so they can go off for lunch or whatever.

@Cristina: Our last 2 comments crossed in the aether. You answered exactly my question about the streamers, thanks. I will try making the first few legs a string course. I am going to figure out what the problems are here, and how to fix them.

It seems to me that the most important factor for beginners is enjoyment of the experience (so they come back), rather than fast times as such - a slow time can be someone out for a stroll, or a fast runner who is often lost. While mandatory training for beginners might be good for them and ultimately increase their enjoyment of the experience, I can also imagine it being very off-putting if it is not handled well. For example, imagine registering and then finding out you are going to have to pass a skills-check test before starting (intimidating!) and that failing it means being pulled out for more training or having to be escorted around the course (embarrassing!). That sets up a "we know a lot and you are clueless" dynamic - I'm not sure I'd want to come back even if I learned a lot, and it doesn't help me feel welcomed and connected to the club. On the other hand, imagine someone at the start very conversationally asking how you are planning to get to the first control (which might be just out of sight, or one of several controls just in sight) and then offering a few suggestions if you aren't sure. I'd learn something useful, would think the club members are friendly, and wouldn't feel like my every move is being watched.

Another strategy would be to try to connect with people afterwards - have club members try to strike up friendly conversations with beginners when they return and ask how it went, if they had any trouble finding things, etc. That provides another opportunity to teach, helps make orienteering a more social experience, and helps you find out if the reason for slow times is a course-setting problem, a lack-of-training problem, or just casual participants. As with training at the beginning, how this is done is important - if it is a mandatory debrief which might result in a lecture if you fail, it's not going to encourage people to come again.

I think ultimately you can't force people to do things that would help them be successful, even if it is for their own good - you can offer training, but you have to allow it to be refused. And then figure out how to work in useful information without looking like that's what you are doing. :)

You could always describe the debrief as being so the club will know how to make the courses even better next time, rather than being about what the participants did wrong.

For sure tact is required!

I do a lot of school group programs (mostly middle school age, but some younger or older). Generally the course is what I jokingly call (to myself anyway) a "whellow" (half white, half yellow). The kids have had a class (usally 40 minutes or so of classroom instruction. A few of them might actually have paid enough attention to learn a little (now who am I kidding?). Anyway, many controls are on trails, but a few are off on other linear features or just a bit off the trail.

I usually figure about a 3.5x spread. That is, the slowest groups of kids will usually take about 3.5 times as long as the fatsest. There is sometimes an outlier, and there are always a few dnf's or mp's but usually those latter are back within the 3.5x.

So, if the fastest kids take around 20 minutes, the slowest take around 90. To handle this, I usually set up 2 approximately equal "whellow" courses and alternate starts between them (sometimes 4 courses if I have a really big group or a very short time). I typically plan so that most kids get to do 2 courses in the time we have available (includes snack & recovery time). For kids who finish 2 courses really fast, I have a 3rd score style course with some orange to green points to keep them entertained. Kids who are really slow on the first course don't have to go out on a second.

Grading is usually: 100% if you complete at least one course, all controls correct. A few points off per missed orf incorrect control, but most teacher's don't want to give lower than a "C' unless kids are goofing off, etc, so the penalty points are pretty gentle (On a 10 control course you might only lose 3 or 4 points per control, not 10%). Usually a bonus/extra credit if they do part or all of a second or third course. Zero and detention or in-school-suspension for messing with the course (hiding a control for example), or other discipline problems (some creative examples from my experience include harrassing a fawn, diving in a pond, breaking a park bench, and mud wrestling).

Wouldn't they get massive bonus points for mud wrestling?

Depends on what they look like, probably...

Dec 15, 2010 11:48 PM # 
Swampfox:
"Wouldn't they get massive bonus points for mud wrestling?"

Only at the CSU Superstars competition.

Meh. Middle school age mud wrestling does nothing for me.

<------- will mud wrestle for $$

I sense a US Team fundraiser.

I was amused, but the teacher was ticked because she had warned them in advance about tracking mud back into the school building & she let them have it with both barrels...

There's going to be a line around the block of people volunteering to mud wrestle Cristina.

That's more like it.

What fee would you set to mud wrestle with Cristina?

Oh gawd. Can't you ever stop talking??

Maybe we can do the mudwrestling fundraiser at the Flying Pig. After all, Pigs love mud! And certain juniors proved that at a previous Pig!

Here is a link to the Barebones' websites "Course Planning Resources" page. On there you can find an excellent article by Barry Elkington (which also appeared in ONA a little whilte back) called "Advice for setting the White course". This is by far the most thoughtful and insightful article I've ever read about course setting for beginners.
http://www.barebones.ca/dwt-course-planning-resour...

Those Barebones documents are very good. They make a point that I think needs to be made even more strongly: control flags are not objectives; they are aids to navigation. On a White course the control flags should lead the orienteer around the course.

Here we have another problem in developing our volunteer course setters: the "easiest" courses, White, are the hardest to set.

Can anyone point me to similar good advice about sprint courses?