Discussion: Mud shoes? (Pronator with bad mets meets rainy hills)

Hola!

Need advice from any and all orienteers for this one, even though this is a trail running question.

The San Francisco Bay Area is entering mud season now, and the trip up a ridgeline will be a long stretch of mudpits and postholes until April.

So far, no trail runner that I've found has really cut it on the slopes I'm climbing. Right now I'm using the Mizuno Cabrakans whose lugs are adequate in summer, but those lugs are turning into cookie cutters -- filling with glop.

What specific shoes should I be looking at? At 40 years of age I've got worn out metatarsals, so I'm looking for shoes that have ample cushion under the forefoot. It's really important. I also bomb downhill and ripped a hole in the Mizuno tread in 2 months of use. I tend to pronate -- that's a lesser concern. (I love neutral shoes like the La Sportiva Wildcats.)

Hear great things about the Icebugs, but which models? I've tried the Inov-8 Roclite 319 (the new replacement for the 320) and loved them, but they don't seem like they're especially geared toward mud season.

(Actually, I've thought a lot about getting into orienteering, but until I find some 'O' shoes that don't destroy my feet, I'll probably have to stick to singletrack.)

Happy belated Turkey Day!

Martin
Redwood City

I'd go with a true O-shoe with an aftermarket insole (e.g., Spenco) to get the cushioning if you really need that. If you like the Roclite, you might consider the O-Roc 340; they are certainly the most comfortable pair of O-shoes I've ever owned and they do well in slop (downside is they're a bit heavy). Just my 2 cents and I'll admit that I simply don't have "shoe issues" - I seem to be able to run injury free in just about anything.

I've had some success spraying my shoes with PAM before running. Really soak it in - mud tends to fall right off!

Wow, pam! Never made that connection. I'll have to check that out. As long as I'm using organic, I might be willing to do it -- but not if there are chemicals leeching into the trail.

More shoe advice? (Thanks ebuckley.)

This bay area stuff can be really nasty and I don't think I've found a good shoe solution either. At places like Briones even my classic VJ O-shoes will get bogged down in a cake of mud. I've kindof given up. I look for tread that won't slip on wet rocks and let the mud do what it does.

My solution is to pretty much avoid fire roads in the winter. Single track trails tend to be better and more fun, especially the trails under redwoods. Or just go cross country, since the PO is dormant and the thistles are gone. That said, learning to run efficiently in mud is a rather fun skill to master.

Not really on topic, but I hope you'll forgive a little reminiscence:
Mud in the Bay Area can be a serious issue these days...those winter storms come in off the Pacific and can last for a week of drenching, continuous rain. Wherever the earth has been dug up or moved, mud (and landslides) can become problematic.

When I was a kid, growing up in Redwood City in the unpolluted '40's and '50's, winter (and the early February springtime) were the best time to run and hike. The rain and cool moist air brought out fragrances of nature that had been dormant during the long dry summer and fall. My brothers and I lived on upper Eaton Avenue, and wilderness started at our back door; we'd go for all-day excursions on those steep hillsides and endless tracts...all the way over to La Cañada Road and back. Mud wasn't an issue in those days, because there were few trails. Only where the ground had been disturbed did mud clump up under your feet...and those areas were minimal.

Today a small part of that area is now "Eaton Park." Last year we went for a nostalgic trail run on the single track there that winds through the wild oats, and down into the bay and oak trees in the ravines. But it just wasn't the same: the park is surrounded by subdivisions now. And La Cañada has been replaced by a 10-lane expressway.

I feel very fortunate to have seen California before the huge migration. Enjoy running those trails this winter, there is still beauty there. But I could never live there again. Just like the weeping Indian on TV, it makes me too sad, knowing what it used to be.

a.k.a.: your problem is that you stay on the fire roads which have ruts that hold the water in ponds or muck. Get off those roads and join us in the lush green grass where the guck is quickly wiped away from the shoes. Winter is the best time to Orienteer in the Bay Area. The weather is cool but not cold and the hills turn emerald green making the ground soft with great traction.

I am one of those immigrants from whom chitownclark has fled. But I moved here by choice. I have yet to find another urban area surrounded by so many beautiful parks. We have mapped about 40 of them.

Clark, thanks for the reminiscence. In answer, as you probably noticed, that's where I am now -- Redwood City. Grew up on the Peninsula too. Probably a lot of BAOC members on this excellent site who'll find it ironic that you've singled out Highway 280 as the offender, since everyone knows that The Bayshore Expressway is the real calamity. If the Bayshore is the "blue collar" freeway, 280 is the "white collar" one, with vistas to spare -- that is, by our generation's standards! That said, the noise from 280 is everpresent in the chaparral, and since the boom there are now even traffic jams going SOUTH on 280 from SF to Silicon Valley. Can you imagine?

Edgewood Park, nearby Canyada Road and the Filoli Estate, is still a beautiful little run. These days I mostly do Windy Hill, which has an ambitious grade up to Skyline. The reward is spectacular, a 360 panorama of the Bay and the Pacific Ocean from the peak. Each run it's coyote, bobcat, deer, rattlers -- no mountain lions yet -- everything you could ask for of this habitat and then some. The Midpeninsula Regional Open Space District and the East Bay Regional Parks District are both working overtime to protect exactly the serenity you knew as a kid. Take a look at their sites.

Thanks to all for the useful feedback thus far.

It's probably a good idea to narrow the discussion.

The question in the background is: What is the most comfortable O shoe -- particularly under the forefoot?

I don't have any problems with heel cups -- just use Hydropel / Body Glide and some moleskin and do a gentle break-in. Forefoot is paramount: I am getting into ultramarathon range and so can't run in hard O flats. I pinned my hopes on the Inov-8 Roclite 319 (getting 4 comfort chevrons on their site), but now am eager to try the Oroc 350 (which gets 3 and has those tremendous lugs and spikes). Still, I'm hearing second-hand about Icebugs and can't unravel which one to order for forefoot comfort -- GG Fly? Gryllo? MR3? MR4? Pytho? -- or whether they'll hold a candle to the Inov-8 Oroc 350, which ebuckley might favor. Also, any other contenders from VJ or other brands?

More broadly...

Resolved: NO shoe is better in mud than any other. Care to take issue?

I've really enjoyed my Inov-8 Mudroc 290s ... NOT specifically O' shoes, no steel spikes but a very aggressive tread. They didn't seem like they would be comfortable (so light and 'slipper like'), but I've enjoyed them up to 15k on rough trail runs (and some pretty long O') with NO issues, and would feel comfortable extending that pretty significantly. Super traction, in mud or even snow. Worth a try at < $100.

I have, for the recent year, always sworn to the Vj Supras, both purchased the spike and regular. They have worked well, and the spike gives awesome grip, but recently i purchased the Icebugs OLX, with a bit of hesitations because of the previous version loosing studs. They have, however, corrected that flaw in the new ones.
Now: the icebugs are the greatest piece of arcitecture I´ve encountered. I started using them this fall, and there were wet times; muddy, and everything. For some reason they still feel "fresh," and i think it has something to do with the material they use. Mud seems to come off easier than they have on VJs and others. I also have heard in heat, it wont crack like it would on traditional o-shoes; and they dont stiffen up as quickly, if not ever.

Like someone previously stated, you could just put insole into it to avoid the stress on your foot, but they tend to have a tighter feel around the foot, so you might want to try them on, before getting too crazy. But that said, having a tighter fit around the foot, will decrease the chance of the sides of an o-shoe to crack, so that is positive, and ive always felt other o-shoes tend to be "baggy" around the foot.

Hugh, what gave the Mudroc the edge among the other shoes you tried -- especially the other Inov-8s on offer?

mnipen, that's good to hear about the Icebugs versus VJs -- on mud, and that they've fixed the studs / dobbs.

You're talking about the Spirit OLXes, not the Sisu OLXes, correct?

Totally agree that the sloppiness of toe boxes can be a real deal-breaker.

Just to clarify, I do use an insole already -- the Roadrunner Sports insole, which has the advantage over Superfeet of a more rubbery material in the forefoot than the overly-stiff top of the Superfeet. Haven't tried other brands beyond those two yet.

Yes, the Spirit OLX; if you are refering to these:
http://www.icebug.se/Product.aspx?m=393

This thread might be relevant to your metatarsal concerns.

I love my Icebugs as well.

Inov-8 mudroc 290. Tread and sole composition designed for mud. Comfortable for 2 hrs, maybe more.

Does anyone else find the Inov-8 nomenclature confusing on their website?

By the way, on the website, all of these have cushion rated at a "3 Arrow Shoc-Zone" -- unless otherwise noted.

SLATTED LUGS
Flyroc 310 - states grip is for muddy conditions

QUADRANGULAR LUGS
Mudroc 290 - states grip is "multi-terrain" (and only a "2 Arrow Shoc-Zone" rating)
Roclite 318 GTX - states grip is for muddy conditions
Roclite 295 - states grip is for hard surfaces, and ALSO says for mud
Roclite 319 - states grip is for hard surfaces (and a "4 Arrow Shoc-Zone" cushion rating)

WAFFLE LUGS
Terroc 330 - states grip is for hard surfaces, and ALSO says for mud
Terroc 345 GTX - states "shoe" is for muddy and wet conditions

STUDS
Mudclaw 272 - states grip is for mud (2 Arrow Shoc-Zone)
Mudclaw 333 - states grip is for mud (and "increased padding" but no "Arrow Shoc-Zone" rating furnished)

SPIKES
Oroc 350 - no terrain profile provided (3 Arrow Shoc-Zone)

Resolved: everyone's gait and foot shape is different, and generalisation is difficult. Pay attention to width as well as length when fitting.

Hey Urban_Blight, the Pam trick may have helped with the mud today -- nothing caked on, though conditions are more like clay at the moment because it's now been a couple of days since the last big storm.

Chitownclark and Geoman, yet another bobcat up close on the Windy Hill trail today, loping along, just telegraphing nonchalance, for about 100 feet before making her exit. "Fine, I'll get off the trail now, just don't rush me."

Comments on Inov-8 and Icebug still welcome. (Gruver, you're right, of course.)

I like my Spirit OLX icebugs. My shoe size is a men's 8, but wear a women's 9 icebug because they better accommodate my wide forefoot. If you try them, maybe see if the women's shoe fits better.

The inov8 technical features page does some explaining of what they mean by 2 arrow, 3 arrow, 4 arrow. link

Here is a plea not to use trails that are muddy. Using trails then is damaging them.

I had always been taught to stick to the middle of muddy trails and puddles so as not to widen the trails. How could people living on the coasts possibly avoid muddy trails? That could make for a winter of ennui. ;-)

Same here. In the local woods here, there are a lot of daily hickers, and the main trails are pretty much 4-6 meters wide + lots of parallell trails everywhere. great piece of sprint map.

Take Pacific Spirit Park in Vancouver for example, where it is too dense to go off trails when its muddy. Trails still seem intact, unless there is something i havent grasped(?)

When a trail is muddy, any use, on the middle and verges alike, is damaging. In mud season I try to stay on pavement or on trails that have been built correctly so there is no mud. Believe it or not, there are books about this stuff.

Damaging in what way exactly?

If only we could get that message to the cows--in many of our parks, they cause the most damage to the trails in the winter.

Don't worry Vancouver transplants, I'm pretty sure that NW cultural standards fully embrace hiking (and running) in the mud. Although Christina's advice about staying off the edge is good, and many trail networks frown upon equestrian use and mountain biking on wet trails.

"We need a futile gesture at this stage."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y5YW4qKOAVM

Hey a.k.a. This quote was recently shared on the bay area orienteering club training email list. It suggest a rather alternative solution to your mud problems.

...I went for an 8 mile run up into Fremont Older. She was exhausted, but I had a blast. There were still some good stretches of mud, which is usually a pain as it clumps on your shoes and you have to do everything to try to avoid it. But barefoot, the mud is scrumptious. It oozes, squishes and squirts between your toes. I ran down the middle of every mud patch I could find.I had been concerned winter would not be good for barefoot running, but it just keeps getting better.

By the way, the baoc training email list includes quite a few south bay orienteers who get together and run. You might consider joining.