Discussion: The last relics of an earlier age

Technology and progress march on. As a consequence, there are necessarily some relics that are the last occurrence of the old way of doing things. I can think of five, though I'm not sure I know when they happened
:
1) The last B&W A-meet map. This one must have been a long time ago, but I think there were some (or at least, some that were not what we now consider to be color maps).

2) The last A-meet to use all text control descriptions (as opposed to international symbols).

3) The last A-meet where the competitors had to copy the course from a master map. I think this was probably in the mid to late 1970s, but I have no idea exactly when.

4) The last new A-meet map that was ink-drafted. The last one that I'm aware of was (I think) a map in Ohio, and it might have been Hinckley Reservation on May 6-7 1995. (It might also be interesting to ask about the last O map that was ink-drafted at all, but I don't know where to draw the line if there was a degenerate case of some schoolyard map.)

5) The last A-meet to use pin-punching. The 2009 Boulder Dash (UNO) on October 3-4 used pin-punching, but I don't know if there have been any since, or if there will be any in the future.

Any more info on these five, or any other landmarks?

Future landmarks may be, for better or for worse...

The first A-Meet to allow the use of GPS.

The last A-Meet to use paper maps.

I'm sure the rapid evolution of the Internet has led to many orienteering "lasts." How about
8) the last meet you attended where you obtained all the meet information (time, map, start location) from a telephone recording or a paper newsletter? Shamefully for me, I believe it was in 2005 when I finally became "connected."

Along the same lines, how about
9) your last post to the old "O-Net?" This was an e-mailed list that lasted about ten years. Here's a jjcote posting about map scales in 1999. I believe the O-Net died soon thereafter.

3) An "A" meet that took place near Magnolia, AK in the spring of 1978 used master maps; I was there. I can't remember then name of the club (long since defunct) that hosted, but it was an ROTC outfit. The map was an unimproved version of the USGS map of the area, reprinted so that open areas were in yellow. First and last "A" meet in Arkansas, which is really too bad because there is some wonderful stuff waiting in the Ozarks.

This event also marked the tail end of the "ROTC Era". Many people today won't know it, but for a while in the 70s ROTC was a really big part of orienteering in the US.

The first A-Meet to allow the use of GPS.

Not future. They were specifically allowed at the 1000-Day a number of times; I'd have to do a little poking around to figure out the first year that this was the case.

Magnolia, AK

That would be Magnolia, AR (not Alaska).

They were specifically allowed at the 1000-Day a number of times.

What years are we talking about here, ballpark? I'm curious to how they were used and to what extent, and how we got the rule we have today of "you can wear one, but you can't use one."

Right--AR, not AK.

I doubt if anyone actually used them. The right to use them was tongue-in-cheek, kind of like the Rocky Mountain Goat spewcifically allowing participants to carry microwave ovens. Its allowed, but nobody is actually crazy enough to actually do it..

The last A-Meet to use paper maps.

Funny, I was just thinking this morning that something non-paper might be the big solution all of us with aging eyes are waiting for. Exactly what that would be I'm not sure...

9) your last post to the old "O-Net?" This was an e-mailed list that lasted about ten years. Here's a jjcote posting about map scales in 1999. I believe the O-Net died soon thereafter.

I was going to guess mid-year 2000. However I see my archives run to January, 2002. So I don't think you can blame it on J-J. :-)

Somewhere along the way it became a bi-directional gateway to the rec.sport.orienteering newsgroup.

Swampfox:

Two HS ROTC groups from AR still bus up to St. Louis about twice a year for local meets. Recession may have interrupted their schedule recently (bus expense). Nice kids and leaders. Once they couldn't find the meet site (Night O' in Kirkwood) and had no contact info - kids still had a good time.

When you finsih mapping WY, MO & AR Ozarks beckon. No moose yet, but armadilloes & black bears have moved in from south & we're importing an elk herd soon.

Actually, the microwave oven rule is the same rule as the GPS rule. The first year we had a list of a number of devices that were permitted, which started with GPS, included things like altimeters, laser rangefinders, and LORAN, and the last item was microwave ovens. Basically, all navigation aids were okay, but transportation aids (like a bicycle) were not. Later it was condensed to just microwaves. I'd guess this was the late 1990s, and as far as I know, nobody used anything for navigation, although I think somebody may have carried either an altimeter or a GPS in tracker mode.

Late 90's GPS's would have been almost worthless for orienteering. No maps + selective availability...

Nowadays, there's potential to have an O' map on your iPhone with a GPS dot, within seconds of the start line. You could just put the paper map in your pocket for the rest of the race.

That's the type of landmark I'm thinking about.

The natural question would be: Is a microwave oven a navigational aid? I can see that it may help you survive (if you also bring food and have a long extension cord...) - but for navigation?? If you had wheels on your microwave would it have been considered a tranportation aid?

The last A-meet where the only way to find out your start times was to make a phone call to the registrar, usually a few days before the meet.

Is a microwave oven a navigational aid?

Not a very effective one, probably. It wasn't surprising that nobody ever brought one, despite numerous opportunities.

a phone call to the registrar

Yeah... maybe in the early 1990s? That's a good one.

The last orienteer to use an analog compass.

a phone call to the registrar

Yeah... maybe in the early 1990s? That's a good one.

Maybe even mid 1990s. Glen and I didn't start going to A-meets until '92-93 and I remember calling several times after that. I'm glad THAT doesn't happen anymore. ;-)

Let's consider current practices that should become relics.

1. Paper Packets (Not sure why they are needed except for bibs? (see 6)).
2. Paper result boards (Electronic boards)
3. Paper maps (Maps and courses on our portable devices)
4. E-punch sticks (Also a feature of the portable device)
5. E-punch control units (GPS tells if you were there or not)
6. Bib Numbers (Can somebody figure out how to get rid of these cumbersome things?)
7. Human Registrars
8. Human Fieldcheckers
9. Human Drafters
10. Human Start & Finish crews
11. Human Beginners clinics (You-tube)
12. Parking Attendants (Cars park themselves now)
13. Awards with actual volumes. (Award free Microsoft electronic game points)
14. Human announcers. (Done electronically)

Things that may be harder to replace: Humans placing control flags, portable toilets, friendly faces, Human meet directors, ( I wish).

Why stop there? Can't we just design and build robots instead of actually running the courses as our human selves?

(With electronic punching, bib numbers have really become just a decoration that makes people feel like they're doing something athletic. I would not be surprised to see some A-meet soon decide to not bother with them. For a backup in case of computer failure, just run a continuous video of the finish line. A pain to go through it and identify faces, but the slim likelihood of needing to do so is probably outweighed by the savings of not having to deal with the numbers.)

I proposed to eliminate packets and bib numbers for our recent Boggs Mtn A-meet. But the opposition to this was widespread and vocal, so I gave in. Traditional ways of doing things don't die easily.

In parks with a lot of non-competitors, having a bib is a big help both for moving along the trails and avoiding reports to rangers.

Bib numbers would be crucial for announcing through spectator checkpoints and the finish chute. (Granted, my pink chex and socks should suffice for bib-less recognition).

Lots of road runs use electronic timing, too, and lots of them require bibs.

When I've designed O' jerseys, I make sure to leave room in the graphic design for a bib, so that a bib doesn't cover up important design elements. (Here's a good example.)

[Edit: Actually, though, an increase in radio controls (or GPS transmitters) could eliminate the need for bibs, as the announcers would know exactly who is coming through a spectator control or the finish chute.]

Bib numbers are also nice for identifying people in photos.

NEOOC might be the last to drop our O-line 1-866-812-8316

I don't think bibs are - nor should - be on their way out just yet. On top of the announcing reasons (keep in mind that multiple runners might hit the radio control at roughly the same time and come through the chute in whatever order) bibs are an important element of making orienteering feel like a real sport to newcomers. That alone is enough reason to keep the bibs as far as I'm concerned.

Some other reasons for bib numbers:
- promotion of the sport if they say "orienteering".
- way for rangers / private landowners to report Out-of-bounds or other violations.
- quick way to identify unconcious or dead orienteer.

I defiitely like RLshadow and Jteutsch reasons.

Bib numbers may become less valuable to announcers as radio controls (SI unit with transmitter) becomesmore widespread as an early warning of a competitor approaching spectator area or finish.

Let's consider current practices that should become relics.

Team fundraisers.

Randy, are you saying you don't like the practice or that it shouldn't be necessary?

Barebones 2010 did not use bib numbers. Did any previous ones?

In a large event aren't bib numbers a necessary part of the back up timing system?

Yes, I wish bib numbers would become relics. What other sports besides running races have them? Why are they really necessary? This idea of safety pinning a big number printed on Tyvek to the pajama top just seems absurd to me.

I would hope that the sporting aspect of orienteering would be obvious. If it isn't, then a number is not going to help.

Also, how long have back up timing systems been required? What constitutes a proper backup system?

Sports that have bibs...

Kayaking, Triathlon, Iron Man, Adventure racing, Running (road, track, mountain etc), Cycling (Road, MTB, DH, CycloX).

Used to identify athletics

Re #9 Possibly, I'm one of very few UK disability tribunal members who can accurately estimate distances, thanks to orienteering. Others think in terms of lengths of tennis, football / rugby pitches (various codes). And only a conventional cooker (not microwave) can be considered in the cooking test for Disability Living Allowance, by the way.

Re bibs - in AR (I marshal lots and compete a bit), bibs are mainly used for reporting misbehaving by marshals, competitors, land owners, footpath / bridleway users etc.

OK--true. I suppose all those things do use numbers. Even Usain Bolt wears a ghetto bib.

So, when you buy a jersey of your favorite AR guy, triathlete, etc., what number does it have?

When it comes to bibs I think a bit of thinking outside the box is adviseable. In Portugal all orienteers have a preassigned number that they use the whole season/career, often printed or stitched to their shirt. For Golden (or Diamond or whatever precious gem is in fashion) League track meets they have started to use the lastname on bibs instead of numbers. In North America maybe Attackpoint handle is the way to go?

I think these two may happen quite soon (in 5 years?)
- The last new A meet area mapped using photogrammetric base.
- The last A-meet map field checked using the traditional method - mylar, coloured pencils, pacecounting and compass - instead of touch sceen device & gps.

Re numbers.
The Irish Mountain Running Association issue a bib to every runner when they register for the year. Committee are usually no. 1-10 then its first runner registered at race one is 11 and they go up from there.
People register for the following year and get there new bib.
The bibs are collected and handed out at each race, this makes sure that everyone has the correct bib but also has the added safety feature that if they are missing a runner, they know who it is as a number will be missing from the pile!
Comes in handy.

Another relic of an earlier age --

The last A-meet where the "Go" control actually had the control code "GO". (Instead of some rather nondescript 3-digit number.)

where the "Go" control actually had the control code "GO"

A practice that was stupid from the day of its inception.

Not saying it wasn't stupid, just observing that it is yet another relic ... :)

Whatever...the new world of O certainly is more fun for those of us who didn't make it to a major meet. I got up early this morning to review the results of yesterday's Fall Foliage meet near Boston.

Ten years ago, before universal internet access, GPS, Quick Route plots,etc I would have only read about this meet in ON/A sometime next month. But now, thanks to prompt uploads by PG, Cristina and others, it is almost like being at the meet, instead of sitting in Chicago nursing a torn hamstring.

Armchair orienteering has never had it so good!

A practice that was stupid from the day of its inception.

DISagree. (see my inititials. ;-) )

The main reason it is now uncommon is that OE, et al, do not support non-numeric control codes. However, I think Or supports any alphanumeric codes.

It isn't that OE does not support non-numeric codes, it is that the boxes need to be programed to a number. You can use alphanumeric codes on the box labels, and on the map and just use the numbers internally in OE.

To answer GuyO:
Barebones 2010 didn't use bibs, but the Resort Municipality of Whistler came very close to insisting on them as a condition of running the sprint in the Village. "Number plates" is how they refered to them, and they wanted them to "encourage good behaviour" from the runners. I suppose the idea is that if runners feel they can be identified, they are more likely to behave well?

We did use bibs in 2005 also. Once an event gets to a certain size (300?) it becomes a lot easier all around to have bibs (IMO). While I don't like the hassle of bibs (creating, assigning numbers, distribution, etc), I do see some advantages, including:
* print names on them
* print start times on them
* print logo / sponsor names on them
* for backup timing (video camera of finish line)

A few of the NAOC/Barebones organizers were sitting around the other day and one relic we're glad we no longer have to deal with is "sturdy" control stands ;-) Now-a-days we can easily carry about 20 controls at once. The old heavy stands were bulky and heavy (and often required construction)

I was course setter for an A meet quite a few years ago. The preparation for the meet was heavy on face to face meetings at the meet director's house. One of these meetings had a large segment of discussion about bib design, which I found perplexing, because I have always thought of bibs as a minor and uninteresting annoyance. When I asked why we were talking about this, the MD explained that some people might like to save the bib number as a souvenir, and so it should be attractive and have the name of the meet on it. I said something impolitic like, "what kind of a nut would save his bib numbers?" A few minutes later we walked into his den, where I saw his carefully maintained bib number display along one wall. Yikes!

"sturdy" control stands

The ones used at the 1992 World Cup race at Pawtuckaway were made out of 2x4s, and you really couldn't carry more than two at a time (maybe for for a short distance).

I remember a 2000 Finish World Cup where control stands were often sawed-off trees (with their roots still in the ground.)

I have all of my bib numbers, although I don't have them displayed. I do prefer the ones that have the event name on them.

I may very well be a nut though.

I don't think it's weird to save bib numbers. I have a few special ones saved on a binder ring. Keeping all of your bibs is certainly more space efficient than collecting a t-shirt from every event...

Bibs are usually printed on nice waterproof paper which I save for important purposes like listing my planned rogaine CPs in sequence in indelible pen and sticking in my pocket for 24 hours. I now have enough to last me for a few years though, so I'll be happy if I don't have to fumble with pins for awhile - except in events where photographers use bib numbers to identify my pics, then send me a list afterward. Gotta admit, that is user-friendly.

I:15,000 scale maps are getting rarer and rarer. I haven't used one on a green course in years. Am I correct in remembering that the EMPO Classic Champs used 1:10,000 even for red and blue courses?

All of the maps used for the US Classic Champs 2010 were printed at 1:10000.

When was the last US A-meet to use a map with a scale smaller than 1:15000? I'm guessing there were some in the early days.

...I said something impolitic like, "what kind of a nut would save his bib numbers?"

Charlie, for some of us back-of-the-packers, that's all we get for our race fee. The tee shirt goes into the laundry bin. So, by default, that's what I save on the wall, in a tasteful collage of 2010 bibs. Compared with the rest of my golf buddies, I still think my den shows the most class! :-)

Bib number, huh? Personally, I hang onto the maps.

I hang onto both, at least for office decoration. I've got the bib numbers displayed along with the maps they went with. It makes my participation look more like a competitive sport when there are bib numbers to go with them.

Although, the #1 question I get from co-workers is, "Oh, so you run a lot of marathons."

I don't know where they are getting that from...

I think the 1977 US Championships at Pocahontas St. Park were on 1:20,000 maps.

Regarding the Finnish World Cup, was every clue "(recently) broken tree"?

I must be feeling argumentative tonight, but I tend to equate bib numbers to a non-competitive sport. Or a sport where there are no barriers to entry; where you are a nameless face in a crowd. A number. Admitted because you pay the entry fee. Or win the lottery.

In other competitive sports, everyone knows who you are. You wear your team jersey, with your name on it.

If the number is the signifier of athletic significance or competitive posture, I think we are barking up the wrong tree.

Well, with just the maps up on the wall, they think I just go hiking. The bib shows the race part, I guess, no matter how uncompetitive it actually is.

J-man, I think you need to send me an autographed team USA jersey, so I can hang it in my office, to show that it's a real sport. ;-)

You wear your team jersey, with your name on it.

And a number. ;-)

I don't just want the date of this one, I want the machine for my orienteering museum. A course over-printer. Explanation follows.

In the days before short-run digital printing, maps were printed offset, without the courses on. (If you are in a big orienteering country, read no further. You won't understand.)

A method for printing the purple stuff was like a giant stamp-pad. The base had guides so a map could be placed in exactly the same place each time. The top had a sticky underside on which you could put rubber circles, lines and numbers. Somewhat more consistent than hand-drawing, but only somewhat. Setting up and printing maps for 200 people spread over a dozen courses would take several people and two evenings. Ugh.

The overprinter was the second worst method of printing courses that I have ever had to use and I would happily burn every one of them. I don't think my back has recovered from using one for the 1991 and 1992 Shamrock O'Ringens.

The worst method is a photocoper with red toner that I used in 1998. I will leave the procedure to your imagination but it wasn't pretty. I had to get sub-mm accuracy for about a dozen courses on this map (http://omaps.worldofo.com/index.php?id=15338), many of the courses at 1:15000. I still cannot figure out how I restrained myself from taking a sledgehammer to the thing.

Yes, Cristina--I did reflect on that part, and it is true--I can't deny it.

But, it is also the same number all the time. Anyway, these are obviously very different sports, with different needs.

For my part, I still find bib numbers ghetto. And maybe a bit infantile:


Maybe if we rename these things, I'll like them better.

kupackman: ;)

I can remember those course over-printers. It had a stamper with word "jouma" (typo, should have be "juoma" = "drink"). The stamper was used, so that typo was seen all over the country for years.

A method for printing the purple stuff was like a giant stamp-pad.

Last I knew, Delaware Valley Orienteering Association was still using several of these for certain meets. I think I used one exactly once, probably around 1989, which motivated me to seek out better methods. PG told me that you needed a mantra that you would chant every time you pressed the printer down on a map. His mantra was "Never again...".

I think the stamp pads are currently in the DVOA museum. But, they were state of the art at one point, and probably saved a lot of time.

Although I do remember the time when I wall-papered my dorm room with flawed French Creek North maps after a disagreeable session with the stamp pad.

Will the last photogrammetric base be coming soon? Ivar Helgesen is tossing his stereoplotter in the next few months, I believe, though I think Stirling Surveys is still in that business (and maybe others).

j-man >> I tend to equate bib numbers to a non-competitive sport...

So this is non-competitive...?

He is competitive. I already issued my disclaimer about Bolt, above.

Is this competitive?


Yes, in a sense. So are the thousands of similar races every year like it. The guys that run 14 minutes are competitive. So may be the people who run 40 minutes. My complaint is a little different.

I don't like bibs aesthetically. I don't like them functionally. And in these races they just serve to reduce people to an index. Usain doesn't need a number. In his race, it is a relic, like an appendix. Usain has transcended numbers. There are a few that can, and I salute them.

Do we need an appendix to remind ourselves that we are more evolved life forms?

Re: Course printer -
The original version in Sweden was called "Mulle".
I found one in a club inventory (Västerås SOK in Sweden), but I guess they are not using it any more...

I´ve printed many courses using those in my days and vividly remember the special smell of the ink ;)

So are the thousands of similar races every year like it.

And to think that orienteering is any different than that would be delusional. Our races of similar caliber don't even bother with bib numbers (and in my neck of the woods, some don't even bother with timing to a batter resolution than one minute).

Although not the first A meet, nor the first meet to allow GPS' we did have a GPS category at our Rogaine this past weekend. It was well received by those who participated, in that they visited controls sites they may not have otherwise found...but that's for another discussion. We'll allow the microwaves next year.

As for bibs..we had good feedback about names on the bibs at the NAOC's this year, especially from those, like myself, who remember the face but can't seem to recall the name. It believe the arena announcers liked them as well.

I think it is still a bit optimistic at this point to go without backup on the finish timing for orienteering races using electronic punching. Considering the percentage of our club's SI units that have failed in the field during an event over the past 5 years, it is just a matter of time until it is one of the finish boxes that bites the dust. Depending on when during the race that it dies (what density of finishers per minute) and the distance from the download station, there could be a lot of competitors without times before the offending box gets yanked out of service. There will be many fewer discontented customers at that particular race where this first happens if the participants are wearing those de-humanizing numbers (not all the volunteers at a race have instant recognition or recall of names of all competitors). Regardless of whether the backup is hand-written numbers/times or a video camera of the finish line with a clock in view, sorting out the mess will go a lot faster working with those (apparently to many) annoying numbers attached.

Well, those are valid points, too. I guess my only solution is to devote my life to devising an alternative to these ugly bib numbers. They will be a relic someday.

photogrammetry- For a fully photogrammetric base map, yes the end is near, but I think non-contour O photogrammetry will continue a bit longer.

Because lidar processing is still a little weak/inconsistent/incomplete for non contour features, I had wondered about combining Lidar contours with photogrammetry for all else. At the IOF map conference at Trondheim (WOC), I learned that I wasn't alone. In fact this is currently being done in many places, perhaps even on the 2010 WOC maps, although my memory is hazy on that. Eventually lidar, or other solutions will surpass photogrammetry for vegetation, and other point and line features, in all circumstances, but currently there still seem to be conditions where photogrammetry is a useful supplement.

Regardless of this possibility, Ivar H sounds dead set on retirement, even under serious interrogation, and Mikell P will apparently be his last customer for a complete base map. On the other hand, he didn't swear to throw out his machine, and I saw that one of his current projects was adding non contour features to a Drammen (Norway) map, in the area around "Spiralen", the corkscrew tunnel.

When you saw non-contour photogrammetry, do you mean without the need for stereo photos? I can easily see that a photograph to supplement the lidar data could be very helpful.

1:20,000 maps-
The Pocahontas map was indeed 1:20,000. I found the original 1975 CISM map, although my filing system let me down on the 77 US Champs, which used the same map.

However two years later than that, the 1979 WOC in Finland used 1:20,000 for both the Individual and Relay maps (documented in my filing system). Well fieldchecked maps, but the difficult readability on such a highly publicized map probably killed this scale for good everywhere.

I almost always use an ortho with the lidar when its available and of sufficient quality. I suspect that Eric means stereo photogrammetry for the fine details. Alot of this can already be had from the lidar with proper processing, again depending on the point spacing of the lidar. Interpretation may be easier in the stereo pair, but its complicated by the canopy. Also the lidar reflected intensity which comes with the elevation data is effectively a perfectly rectified orthophoto. Here's a .ppt presentation about information content in lidar data from this summer's convention:

lidar_for_basemaps.ppt

JJ- This still requires stereo photos, all photogrammetry does. Perhaps I am missing your point?

Orthophotos (corrected, non stereo, "flat" photos) are useful by themselves, and are a common supplement to lidar. Mark D does this exclusively, as do many others. However, viewing stereo photos in 3D shows more things, more clearly, and for objects with any height, gets them in the correct location. Except in the center of the original photo, the tops and bottoms of tall objects are not in the same place.

edit- this was originally written before seeing Eddie's post, not that there's any disagreement.

OK, I'm in agreement with you both.

I guess my only solution is to devote my life to devising an alternative to these ugly bib numbers.

Facial recognition software?

Why not a simple RFID token? Epunching remains for control validation. The RFID is just read by another system.

Keep the numbers, lose the bibs.

j-man>> As far as I know the e-punching (both SI and EMIT) is already based on RFID technology. My - hopefully educated - guess is that it would be possible to "turn up" the "reading unit" (or another complementary system) that reads the start/finish to collect RFID-data when crossing the line. This would cover the need of back-up timing. On the other hand - if we don´t believe in 100% faultless technology (which of course doesn´t exist) - then it should be manual.

EMIT is already testing and using this for controls where you actually just run through a gate without "punching"...

Do we need another RFID-chip or is the one we already carry enough?

Well, if you lose one, then you are SOOL, so to speak. Having two establishes some sort of redundancy.

I am curious what the expected SI failure rate is. Is this a real concern?

Most local meets make do with SI for all timing--no backup. How many times do they run into a problem?

Depending on the event, I still think that in the USA, a typical A-meet could do just fine with simple video. Bearing in mind that it's quite unlikely that it would need to be used, and that if it were, it would be a mop-up situation where some delay would be tolerable, a few knowledgeable people could easily recognize 90% of the faces, and the remainder could be identified from the short list of remaining people by a combination of looking to see what classes the people were in to narrow things down, and a tracking down a few people to help with identifying the remainder (most of whom will not be in contention for awards).

I assume that video, albeit with much lower latency, is what most major-league races employ. Like the ones with Mr. Bolt?

JJ: while your description is probably accurate for the present, if we actually do succeed someday in attracting some new people to the sport, this solution will eventually not scale well. If it does then our marketing efforts have failed.

Video with facial recognition or RFID without would scale well.

had to look up SOOL, I'm so out of lingo...
SOOL Suomen Opettajaksi Opiskelevien Liitto

Well I hope they don't give on on the old photogrammetric basemaps just yet, as we have no lidar up here. Too much wilderness with no economic reason to use it I guess.

I would imagine that facial recognition software would require that there be a collection of photographs of the competitors for the software to match up with. Amassing that collection is probably more of a hassle than handing out bib numbers at every race.

I am curious, has anyone resorted to some kind of backup at an epunch event in the US (or, separate question, elsewhere)? Using pin-punching and using a laptop for timing at the many events I was involved with, we did lean on the backup (person writing down bib numbers) for short stretches occasionally, and I think at least once for the entire results of the event when the computer crashed (later improvements made this failure less likely).