Discussion: Zone 3 training

Starting a new thread from the pure running speed topic - one of the original questions posed involved reducing the amounts of Level 3 training as it is considered a zone of 'junk miles' not intense enough for quality training, yet too much for endurace or recovery.

First off, I read somewhere that in fact its only a narrow range of 'sub-threshold' heart rates that are involved, not all Level 3. For me (male 43) this pretty much equates to a 10beat zone in the 140's. (my training log software allows me to exclude that sub-threshold band in building a zone chart)

So when 'pushing hard', I try to make sure my hr is above 150, and when running 'easy' try to stay under 140 and avoid the 'no man's zone'.

But it seems to me that this would apply more to sports/disciplines that are pretty much steady state or when run training in a steady state mode.

Orienteering, for the most part is not steady state with the variety in terrain as well as speed variances as one slows down near the circle for fine navigation.

And many of my training runs combine periods of harder efforts - hills, speedplay, with slower efforts - and thus my average hr for a workout may well end up in the 'junk' zone even when I make efforts to avoid the 140's while training.

So what do others think about this avoidance of zone 3 as it pertains to a non-steady state discipline like O? Any consensus?

rich wasn't suggesting that 3 was junk, only that 2 allows better recovery when one is also doing more 4-5, which he's recommending for Jon during the competition season.

I usually consider the zone you're talking about to fall around the boundary between 3 and 4, which I'll call 3+. I agree that steady-state training in this zone is not physically ideal and probably shouldn't be your goal (except if an o-session has a technical goal that requires this intensity, that would take priority), but if you are aiming to have a level-3 terrain session, you will most likely spend some time there when going up hills etc.

I think for the mixed-effort sessions you describe, the time you spend here is really just in transition. in the extreme case, it's obvious that if you split your time cleanly 50/50 at 3 and 4, and your average comes out to be 3+, you haven't actually done any 3+ training, that's just the average, so there's no problem. probably not something to worry about.

i realize rich didn't use the term 'junk miles', but remember the term used in some stuff i read a year or so ago on this same topic, only in a pure running forum, not O specific. Just figured I'd see where others weighed in. It seems like the goal should be to run above or below that zone and not worryabout drifting in/out of that zone - others may feel differently though

"quality-junk zones" (daniels) aside, I've also heard the term "junk miles" used to refer to really short (under 20 mins) easy runs, e.g. a 1-2 mile easy run that's not part of some other workout.

Zone 3 being a subjective term, it would make sense to better quantify what we are talking about. I do a lot of zone 3 training, but none of it is of the "junk mile" category. My zone 3 training is either moderate tempo (HR around 155) or easy distance with some harder efforts thrown in. Zone 2 is pure recovery or LSD pace. Zone 4 means that a significant portion of the workout was at or above AT. I don't use 5 or 1 much. 1 is stuff that I wouldn't count at all, but may have non-physical benefit (e.g., mapping). 5 is very hard efforts that result in significant teardown of the skeletal muscles (heavy squats, 10K race, etc.).

Also, realize that this discussion is relevant only to wieght bearing sports. Cyclists and swimmers can do "junk miles" all day long and come back for a good hard workout the next day.

I would guess that all of us have differing definitions as to what 1-5 mean for training intensity. Frankly when some one here first mentioned these "zones" I thought they were talking the zones that Daniels et all refer to. Talking A! zones is open to too much semantic definitions.
I guess Kenny has an idea what he meant by these, perhaps he could define them by HR or examples.
For me a tempo effort HRjust above 150, my max is 170, is a 4, a O sprint race, or most trail or road races under 1 hour are a 5. Easy runs are a 2 or 3. Say 120 HR for 2 and 135 for 3.
Also I don't consider a slow 3 mile junk, I call it recovery. But that depends a lot on what you do hard days.

This was one of my first questions to Jon before even offering any advice. His definitions"

"5 - 5K race effort or harder
4 - typical orienteering race effort
3 - anything between 2 and 4 - in general, something it would be no
challenge to keep up for an hour but likely a problem to keep up for two
hours
2 - LSD running effort (training runs in the two hour plus range)
1 - anything noticeably less strenuous than 2

As to the biking specificly which is 60% of his year round training and always logged at the same intensity: "log almost all cycling as effort zone 3. I would probably log most of it as 4 if I were measuring and logging only the time spent actually moving rather than stopped at lights"

This seems to put a lot of the time in that 3+ area discouraged above.

actually, most attackpointers are using very similar definitions of intensity (I never intended to define it, but maybe that would be helpful in the future).

also, check out a thread on this topic from 3 years ago

Just to add an alternative - for me
1- recovery/easy
2-steady run (for me 140-165)
3-threshold/tempo (165-175 depending on fitness)
4-longer intervals/ie 800s (170-180 or 185)
5-really fast stuff, like 200s (definitely over 180)

Sounds like I don't fit the consensus. I barely do any 5. Obviously 3 for me is not at all junk, and not slow. At any rate, surely there are days for all types of running, depending on one's individual schedule. I need to get in some hard 2s (not tempo, not recovery), particularly as I often only can get out 3 or 4 times a week!!!

khall, that is how I use my zones, too.
zone 1 is base training. If I do stuff below 120 bpm, I don't count it because to me it isn't physical training or of very limited use. I think zone 2 (140-160) is fine for most people because we don't do enough volume for it to be a concern. You should cut this out/train at a slower pace if you aren't recovering for your hard workouts or are able to/have time to do larger volumes of training. For me zone 3 is important. It is threshold training. I am doing more zone 5 now and I think it will become increasingly important with sprints now part of the schedule.

my zones are also different.
1- recovery/easy 110-130 bpm (aquajogging, but also strength since my HR isn't high for long)
2- long endurance type of work 130-150 bpm (biking, especially hometrainer rides where I put no type of intervals or threshold work into it.)
3- steady-state work 150-170 bpm(a lot of workouts)
4- threshold work 170-185 bpm (but also any type of running that is over 2 hours, just because that make me tired, not because my heart rate is high...)
5- intervals and races 185-205 bpm

I thought one of the beauties of the way it works in AttackPoint is that the zones, just like the training categories are defined by each individual. That way they are meaningful for that person. For me, a zone 5 is anything where a significant part of the workout is going nearly all out. Heart rate probably works well for many but I'm told that as one gets in better shape, blood is thinner and heart rate measurements start to be less of an accurate indicator of intensity.

I agree with Nadim. It is tailored to the level of training for each individual. I don't use heart rate as the measure but my criteria might match up somewhat to those that do..

1) any exercise less than a 2
ex: mapping, light yard work.
2) any real excercise but at a relaxed pace.
ex: serious hiking, weights, serious yard work
volleyball.
3) Normal training speed. For me this has to be faster than 8:00 mile when running.
ex: training runs, outdoor soccer.
4) Pushing the pace.
ex: Most orienteering races.
5) All out. Difficult to do for any length of time.
Indoor soccer. Usually on the field for only 6 minutes at time going full tilt.

HIking! Soccer! I thought this was a serious orieenteering site where other sports weren't to be discussed! Committed orieenteers should have no time for such frivolity! ... oh wait wrong thread and wrong keyboard operator...

One of the things that I suppose our generous benefactor wants out of his new inclusion (the comment option in logs) is the ability for others in the group to offer meaningful training advice. It might then be helpful to be able to see a reference definitions for the individual's zones.

good idea!

I'd put it up as a link to the individual's training page, maybe next to that sporty new graph or down below the 5 week boxcar.