Discussion: new VJ`s

quite looking forward how these ones going to be. one of the Norwegian guys in VJ said they are specially made for Trondheim...we will see.

http://www.sport8.no/butikk/index.php?act=viewProd...

sweet shoe. with studs?

i don`t think so, but actually i do not know to 100%

Hmmm, sole and upper look good. Too bad no studs. That's an absolute necessity around here.

No studs = good
Sole = From what I can see the tread pattern looks abit like the inov8 roclite which is good.


But they seriously need to invest in some sort of modern designer. The graphics and upper design look disgusting.

Sure the looks of a shoe don't change how good they are but it decides on whether the consumer chooses this shoe over another similar one.

As if orienteerers look so stylish :D
http://www.pro.se/PageFiles/30683/Bilder%20nr%208%...
http://trygveu.files.wordpress.com/2007/11/oriente...
http://images.cdn.fotopedia.com/flickr-680250383-i...

;)

Purt, i dont know what kind of orienteering you are doing, but when I´m running for full, i do not feel 100% safe without studs. It is so easy to slip especially when the terrain is demanding. At a terrain test run i decided to favour lightness rather than grip, and i suffered from it.

But with all due respect: I´m not going to take advice from some kid.

I think it very much depends on the terrain. I ran the Flying Pig in Cincinnati a few years back without studs and didn't miss them at all. The hills are very steep there but there's hardly any rock so the knobs do fine on their own. I've run in Chicago (flat & soft) both with and without and haven't noticed much difference.

Here in St. Louis, the hillsides and creeks are all littered with broken limestone and I just can't imagine running it hard without studs. Even at an easy pace, I notice the difference.

Pen, here in Australia studs are definitely not needed. It's actually much better if shoes don't have them. I'm not sure what kind of orienteering you do but last time I checked the terrain varies.

I wasn't giving you advice, unless of course you own VJ which would be disconcerting with the obvious attitude problem you have. I'm just saying that compared to Inov8 VJ are well and truly behind on design of their shoe. If I was choosing shoes which are similar ie. Inov8 roclite and these new VJs I would choose the Inov8s. Just because from what I can see their soles are similar so it comes down to weight, looks and durability. So from what I'm seeing the roclites win hands down.

VJ NEED to invest in some modern designers.

so out of weight, looks and durability you would only choose by looks..?

I couldn't care what the hell my shoes looked like as long as they did what I wanted out of them

I didnt think they looked all that bad. And at first glance Id have to say that they look just a little bit similar to inov8's.....Actually so similar that had I not known already they were VJ's I would have thought they were Inov8's.

But yeah...being obviously quite old (if mnipen thinks purt is a kid)...what would I know as I sent most of my spare time out training, not checking myself out in front of the mirror to see if I look good in my shoes.....

When you guys talk "studs" are you actually meaning metal "spikes"?

There's a lot of difference between the two IMO.
I would refer to rubber knobs as studs but metal as spikes.
Am I wrong to do so?

I prefer metal spikes here in Australia but I've not tried any of the more recent Inov8 style of shoe with modern rubber grip patterns.

Everyone here appears to be talking about metal studs. I consider 'spikes' to be something much more vicious than what you find on O shoes - think bloody shins in a baseball game (if you can think of baseball...). The rubber parts are often referred to as cleats, though studs also seems appropriate.

@Purt: Pen, here in Australia studs are definitely not needed...

When was the last time you ran on wet granite without metal studs? Doesn't work for me...

Spikes are sharp, studs are blunt. It has nothing to do with what they are made out of. I've never seen an O shoe with spikes (that's not to say it doesn't exist - just very uncommon). Spikes draw blood if you pick them up wrong (I speak from experience). I've never punctured myself with my O shoes.

ebuckley: would you then agree that there are spikes, studs, and dobbs? Because there are certainly metal things with much more exposed metal than than the O shoes we normally get here, such as these:

@fletch...."When was the last time you ran on wet granite without metal studs?"

I actually orienteered on wet granite even some moss covered granite on Sunday last weekend in Inov8s.

When was the last time you orienteered on wet granite and wondering what shoes you used.

So back onto those VJ's...

The name is "VJ BOLD O-Sko SPIKE". So sounds like they have some kind of metal on the bottom.

Studs = rubber
Dobs = rounded metal
Spikes = Sharp spikes

Those VJ Supra's has something between dobs & spikes. They are basically spikes which have had the top few mm's taken off so they show a flat surface, but are still much longer than dobs.

With regards to what is the "best" shoe/sole; everyone has their personal preference. And it totally depends on a day. Soft/hard, wet/dry, rocky/sandy etc etc etc

The most important thing is wearing a shoe that gives you confidence. That and weight...

I bought the Vj supra spike a week back (the one j-man showed), and let me tell you, those spikes are insane! they arent really sharper, but just a lot longer, and the grip is great. but the downside is you cant run on roads with them; it would ruin the asfalt.

O shoes with actual spikes (ones that screw in) were not uncommon 20 years ago. I still have a pair of Silva Spikes out in the garage, although the carbide tips fell out of all of the spikes and the spikes themselves then wore down flat. I could have unscrewed them and replaced them, but the unscrewing was easier said than done, and the shoes were pretty beat up by then anyway. I always call the rubber bumps on shoes "cleats", so that I can use the word "studs" for the metal pieces that protrude out of the ends of cleats, very much like in studded snow tires. They aren't rounded, the exposed part is just shorter. I've heard the term "dobbs" or "dobb spikes" used in places like this, but these words mean nothing in a non-orienteering American context.

Yeah, I had some of those shoes witht the plastic/spike forefoot, too. They were awesome. But, they aren't typically available in the US, and I also thought there were environmental/safety concerns some places (Sweden?)

AFAIK, it's just a matter of them being banned at big relays, where the crowding means that there's a chance of somebody's foot getting stepped on.

"Kommer i Spike og Pigg utgave"

means will be available with dobbs and spikes

@j-man: I think I'd still call those studs since functionally I don't see any difference. Others, of course, may see it differently.

Maybe, but what functional difference would there be with respect to prototypical spikes in the context of orienteering? We are running in dirt or on rocks, so I would think these spikes would perform as well as and probably better than the spikes we think of in track or XC shoes.

Exactly, which is why I'd call them studs. Super-sharp spikes don't work as well on rock as a blunt stud. However, I'll also concede that this debate is entirely pedantic.

OK, while I don't want to get more pedantic, what happens to a spike when it becomes a bit worn? It becomes a stud? Then we can say that a spike is a stud before some sort of phase transition? But, a stud can also be its own initial and terminal state?

For a guy who didn't want to go more pedantic, you sure headed in that direction in a hurry!

I think the terminal state of all these things is the void. Sooner or later they fall out.

The closest thing I can come to a serious response is to note that I use fairly short spikes in my cross country shoes. I use them primarily for trail races, so the long grass spikes are don't work very well. By the time they are worn down to being not sharp, they are pretty much non-existent, as in, they don't really come down much below the sole of the shoe. I suppose a grass spike could morph into a stud, but for it's life as a spike, it wouldn't be much fun to run across rock; you'd be lifted up awfully high from the ground.

OK, while I don't want to get more pedantic

...it's like you don't belong on AP, or something. :)