Discussion: Can You Run Through This?

It's been very interesting following the "Orienteering=" thread - knowing that this video was just about ready...

The original concept was for three successive pages in a running magazine, but somewhere along the way it morphed into this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R-siTeqG2iI

First off - watch and let me know what you think (or better yet, if you think it's great, comment directly on youtube;-)

Next - if you can think of some pure runners that would take it as a challenge, let them know about it.

Improvements - if you can offer images that would fit into the sequence and show the dynamic nature of orienteering, let me know - I'm thinking of re-releasing this for later A-meets.

And Last - if this gets you going - we'd like to see you in the woods near Rochester - we'll settle this there;-)

[The web site may not be quite up on the usof site... your patience is appreciated;-]

I love it! I'd post on youtube but I don't have an account :)

Very cool! I'm going to post it on my Facebook page...and on my running group's Facebook page.

I would like to see some maps in between!
Just to make clear that it is sport orienteering, but not an adventure run or something like this!!!
Good idea, the rest is good work!
May be, as a bonus, the price rewards could be nice too :)

I also like the rugged outdoor video that YouTube suggests to me after I finish watching your orienteering video.

Both videos shot at some kind of meet; both accompanied by hard-charging music. Somehow theirs makes yours look so much better.

But for the average American....?

I think you should include some footage, too, possibly of someone punching a control or something. Also, the website went by a little too fast for me to catch it the first time. But I guess that if they are really interested, they will rewind it and pause it like I did.

I agree with Orion4ik that O maps would be a great addition, since they're integral to the sport.

As to the USOF site, I'll be sure the link gets up today (was sick in bed all day yesterday so no computer time).

Hmmm... On punching - I guess you do have to watch it more than once... Three of the images show punching, and three others have control flags in them. I specifically left out images of people standing at a control or anything that used saw-horses - just not very exciting;-)

On a map image - if someone has a nice image of someone running full speed around an obstacle of some sort while trying to have a look at a map - that sounds like a great addition!-)

Contact me off-list and I'll queue that up for the next version. (This is my blunt way of saying I have no such picture - but would love to include something like this...)

page is up on USOF site...

1. I agree that the URLs and credits at the end go by too fast. I wasn't going to nit-pick, but since someone else already mentioned it, I will concur! Also, in general, the photos seemed to flash by before I could really take them in. But I'm just slightly older than the MTV generation that's accustomed to all that quick-fire editing...

2. I really like this action shot of Sandra. She's not looking at her map, but she's splashing into a stream -- cool. Wil Smith also has lots of great action shots in his SmugMug gallery. See example below.

Credit: Martin Jörg


Credit: Wil Smith

Brooke - nice pictures, I'll check into that and queue them up.

I reviewed on youtube and realized - the music goes at a good rate, but sometimes the pictures are choppy. They are supposed to flow with a quick but constant rate. I found the screen froze on one picture and then zipped through a couple at an unusually high rate - that's the network, youtube, or your system interfering;-)

I held the web link a full 4 seconds at the end - come on;-)

The credits really do take up a fraction of a second - there's no place to put them, and I didn't want to keep people waiting to look at them, and I didn't want to leave them out... So credit is given in the clip, but it doesn't bother anyone who doesn't want to look. (and you never see credits in a commercial anyway)

chitownclark - I watched the jeep video and yes - that looked entirely "thrilling" from a technical point of view - jeeps moving very slowly in really tough terrain and breaking down... Not at all exciting though;-)

And Orion - I'm not sure what the "price rewards" are...

I love the concept and I think the video is good - but I few video snippets would make it great!

Very cool!

I agree adding a few video segments would be great.

Have one of the video clips show looking down on a map w/ thumb compass while running (steaaaaady cameraman!).

I like it too -- although it did go by a bit fast. Perhaps you could also make it available as a standard (PowerPoint?) slideshow.

Guy - thanks. I was reading ahead in my mind and I thought the punchline was "could you make it go in slow motion"...

I'll see what I can do next version;-)

I think that is it a great video and a great advertisement for the event. Something like this could be used for advertising local clubs, Junior leagues, Senior/Junior training camps. All kinds of things for orienteering.
Great job Steve and thank you for sharing it.

Guys, thats not how you get people involved or publish O to non o folk. Its just random pictures been flashed up at speed. What is it trying to convay? Whats the story line? It doesn't show what orienteering is.
I know this came up a while ago but again its the only film that comes close...

http://www.finnvangelderen.com/O-film/index.html

Here is "Follower" by Ok Orient, advertisement video for Finnish ultra long champs 2007 (mass start):

http://sm2007.okorient.fi/index.php?option=com_con...

Colm & Jarkko, you both give great examples of orienteering for people who know what orienteering is all about bascially. In your countries orienteering is a well known sport. In the USA if you say you are going orienteering 90% of the people will say, huh? what? you're doing what? look at you like you have two heads. Orienteering is NOT a well know sport in the USA. We need to spike the interest in the viewer of the video. We want them to say, WOW! that looks exciting, I want to try that. That looks way cooler that just running at 10 K trail run or running in a cross-country race. THEN we can show them a video like one of the examples you gave once they have an interest and basic understanding of what orienteering is all about.

Steve I think what you have produced will spike interest in non-orienteering runners to find out with our sport is about.

255 people at the Irish Orienteering Championships. The premier of premier events in Ireland. I wouldn't pick the words well known to describe the situation on the emerald isle.

I'm not knocking attempts to plug the sport in the US, i'm only saying that high quality, staged photos - work better. Say catching a runner coming into a control with a big silva torch or something to that effect. you want something different, something that stands out. I taught there was very ltlle difference between the hill running shot and some of the orienteering shots.... in fact running with a back pack down a steep muddy hill looked the most fun out of all the pic's!

Would it not be an idea to use the cunning running idea. Don't target the top guys in hill running or cross country - they have chosen there sports. Look at the runners midfield (generally top class runners anyways!) and sell them idea of thinking there way to winning. They mightn't be as fast as the top 10 but they are able to out think them and get a win that way.

0:17 Typo in there "orienterring" - probably already been pointed out somewhere.

Personally, I would promote orienteering as dynamic, which the "Follower" film does much better than the slideshow or "the orienteering adventure" (which I actually like a lot, but it is not so dynamic). this film is also "dynamic", the jumping off rocks, etc and the relatively short scenes get the adrenaline rising (slightly at least)

also, music is important to make the film "dynamic", which is part of the reason why the "crazy choice" film works well.

This is a dynamic o film

It sure is. That is really kinetic.

Cool! - but it needs a longer view perspective as well - an areial or map view of a leg with the course leg and actual runner's route overprinted. Like the GPS tracks that people make of their runs.

Sorry I don't have an example, but I'm sure other's can provide some.

Any of TG's follow me videos would fit the bill then.

Heres my favourite one

Having watched all of the videos offered - this is not the same... One of the videos was barely done with a scenery shot before the 40 second "Can you Run Through This?" clip was finished;-)

Personally, I think the "stylized orienteering" videos do a dis-service - no self respecting O-er will intentionally go out of their way to jump over a bench when they can easily make sure they can get around it, tumble after a drop, or god forbid jump off an arbitrary cliff into a lake...

I have found good videos like the "follow me" that show what orienteering is - but they take minutes.

And this video is not intended to be a "this is what orienteering is" piece.

The target is a modestly active road runner who has completed 5k and 10k road races and hasn't thought about where they were running for ages.

The challenge to them is - direct and personal - Can You Run Through This?

To that end, it is a commercial - if I could have made the music and images work out to 30 seconds worth, I would have - I was trying to find every way to make it as short as possible. You don't get much more time to interest anyone. When they want more information - that's when you have more time.

Orienteering terrain has everything road races does not - up, down, water, forest, fields... The fast paced images are intended to make someone think about running over something other than a road...

I posted the video link because it is also a commercial of a national O champs just as ccsteve's video. It is not trying to show what O is either. Actually it is kind of showing what O is not (or should not be) - following, trying to shake follower by taking fool routes, grabbing map, asking where we are and so.

In the USA if you say you are going orienteering 90% of the people will say, huh? what? you're doing what? look at you like you have two heads. Orienteering is NOT a well know sport in the USA. We need to spike the interest in the viewer of the video. We want them to say, WOW! that looks exciting, I want to try that. That looks way cooler that just running at 10 K trail run or running in a cross-country race. THEN we can show them a video like one of the examples you gave once they have an interest and basic understanding of what orienteering is all about.

I am not sure about that. I don' think highlighting the navigatinonal part of O (maps/controls/punching) is the way to go. Better if you show O as a running race in a true forest, no just on paths. Fastest runner wins. Better just hide most of the nav part. If someone thinks running fast in forest is lame then maybe O is not for him/her.

And if someone think its cool and is interested, the person will eventually think and ask about the route - there is no sign of marked route on video. And the answer is there is no marked route, just some checkpoints every now and then and runners need to visit those but they can run what ever route they like in between. And checkpoints are marked on a map and runners carry these maps and they need to be able to navigate a little bit. The map/navigation/controls - the nav part - is the price this sport have to pay to made it possible to have this true off road/off path running aspect instead of running marked routes that eventually turns into lame trail/road running or obstacle course type of agility race. But that the nav part is actually fun and most orienteers think high speed nav is the most fun part of the sport.

If I imagine me telling someone I do O and he ask what a heck is that, if I show him fast and furiuos video of forest running it would be not that far from the truth. For viewer it is not so difficult to scale the speed down - it's easy to figure out I do the same thing, I am just slighty more fat and slow. It would be a lot more dificult to scale the speed up. If I show a video highlighting the nav part of the sport - educational style clips of O, lots of maps and comparing map and terrain - they will get it all wrong for sure. They will thing is a geocatching style geek hobby and they never get the fast and furious running part of this sport. They may eventually believe orienteers actually do some jogging on the way, but they might never really get it actually is a true running race.

I think at this perspective ccsteve's clip isn't that bad at all. Adding map clips would just make it worse, instead you could take away most of the punching / control flag shots and underline the fast forest running part of the sport. And there is always room for slideshow format, nothing wrong with that either. Easy and fast to do and edit, and pars of the material can be used in print format too if needed.

well said, Jagge!

Yeah Jagge--I agree.

However, I must admit I thought the pace and antics depicted in some of these videos a bit unrealistic (and I'm not talking about Crazy Choice.) Clearly, people are running at beyond race pace and it just looks a bit odd. But, please err on the side of too fast rather than too slow. These are what I think of when I think about depicting the sport I do.

No map = no O

Separating fast forest running from the navigation aspect is inadvisable; it's why we call it The Thinking Sport.

BTW, the terrain in the JoinOSports video looked fascinating. Where was it filmed?

Guy, I believe that was Austrian - one of the sponsor logo's at the start seemed to have an outline of Austria in it

Don't show map or punching?

That's like promoting golf as a nice walk between holes. No clubs - no ball no hitting.

Truth in advertising......apparently not.

It also comes down to who your target audience is. Sounds like your just targetting the young fast guys.

Again, I doth protest;-) One fifth of the O shots include punching. Another fifth include a competitor leaving or approaching a control...

Next version (with a couple of offered pictures) will include more prominent map use.

I'm not so sure about having to relate the truth about navigation. When I started orienteering, I was familiar with road maps, not contour maps. What I really like in O is just running through the woods, over hill and dale. Having to read the map kinda slows me down, so for me, the running in the woods is the real fun part.
(comes from many hours of playing fox and hounds in the woods when a youth....)

@ccsteve - sorry, I was suggesting the approach of not showing those as mentioned by some others not your vid.

@coach - fine but that's what you enjoy about orienteering we are all different. I can't run fast or for long, but will push myself because I like the navigational side and the challenges it represents but I know to do well (relatively speaking) I do need to run at least a bit.

Don't ask me how I ended up in a running based sport. While I admit I enjoy my surroundings while out there, the running is and always will be a real chore and just a neccesary evil for me and I suggest many others like me.

Looking at the videos the one thing for sure is that the Irish one has the best production values by far. Well done to whomever produced it. Looks great & good sound quality.
(OK some of the others maybe lost a little in the upload to youtube etc)

With such a wide ranging group of profesionals amongst our ranks. (I think I'm one of the least expert at anything) I'm surprised we don't have any advertising and production experts amongst us that could produce some decent web adverts at least.

Maybe there has been some in Scando but I've yet to see anything close to the prodution values of the irish one (shame they don't speak English though)

EDIT: Actually the Finish one is very well made as well (must have missed that one)

Marketing is selling the sizzle...

For some people in orienteering that might be navigation - or getting out into nature. This ad wouldn't be the best to attract them.

Early in my orienteering days the club held this thing called a goat, and not knowing much more than it's longer, has more climbing, includes a couple course selection features, and was in the wonderful Letchworth park, I didn't quite know what was going to happen...

I made a very early control skip (#2) and was near the front a few controls later when I found myself flying through a forest and down a hill with aging pine trees left and right and realized that one, a false step could leave me very impaled on one of those branches, and two, that this was way cool. That I could race through a section of a forest that I've never stepped foot in - just to see how well I could do it...

So the exciting thing about orienteering is the terrain - running around, over, and through stuff that would catch up a good portion of the road race population.

And that's got to be the tease - the ad challenges the road runner to leave the road.

Anybody else see a rise in participation in triathlons or duathlons? Same thing - even tougher than a road race... People are looking for more and this is one way to challenge them into trying orienteering.

Next year's version:

Open on a quiet park with the sound of birds, an older couple checking their map and pointing off to a distant feature... Two children urging a family to hurry up with a control in sight. A deer raising it's head off to the side of a trail with little Suzzy in awe... People socializing after the event.

We'll put that one in the Nature Conservancy Magazine;-)

(Seriously;-)

Well if its movie night...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WKQSX5tssX8

Haven't been checking out all the links in this thread so sorry if someone's already found this one , but it's a goodie!

So runnable..... sweeet!

Anyway, I think if you really like to attract runners you need a O format these runners feel they are good at. And it would not be bad is also true orienteers feel these runners are needed and welcomed. For example some sort of team O race, about like individual race but for teams :
- team starts together, 5 min start interval between teams.
- 3(4) members in team
- one forked control ~ each team member has different control

To get good team you can have different strategies. 3 orienteers, team is fast at forked part of the race, they can lead in turns, followers can figure out coming route choices in advance or ensure leader is not making mistake etc. Or you can have one fast navigator and two pure runners and team just takes all forked controls together. Or runners could learn just a little bit to navigate to be able to find the forked control if it looks easy enough.

Course can be normal tough and difficult O course, so you need to have at least one orienteer to get result. So it can be marketed as orinteering race, team can't do well without O skills.

Or something like that. Not adventure race, just genuine 60-75 min orinteering race but for teams. Most O clubs doesn't have four eqaully strong runners, so any club would make better team by finding at least one or two strong runners who are able to follow. And the team gets even better if these runners learn a little bit how to navigate, so if one of the forked controls are really easy they can spike it on their own. Like trying to run some easy (long orange?) courses on their own would be good preparation for this team race. Like this being dead last at a local O meet wouldn't bother them much - making a good result there wasn't their goal, it was just a training for the team race.

With this team format fast forest running commercials would make more sense and the fun fast forest running part would actually be possible without having to learn too much. And you could make nice videos of fast packs in forest.

If a runner thinks running in forest looks cool he/she might not think it is so bad idea to join a strong team and trying to win a medal at the North American Team Orienteering Championships. And training a little bit for it (trying to find some controls at local O meet) might not sound that bad idea either. But I guess you know this all better and you have discussed about these team aspects and there must be long AP threads about this and you may already have tried something like this. But I just felt like saying it anyway. Weekend for Goat and Team O champs, saturday 60 min tam O champs and sunday goat champs. Runners could aim for team O race and try their luck next day with the goat race. Wild :)

Here's one I made this year, not as any sort of promo but rather for those in attendance or already orienteering.

It's not great as I had little coverage due to actually running myself as well as being part of the organising group.

2009 NSW Sprint Champs

A while back I set up a VIMEO group called

Map Sports - orienteering/rogaining/AR

If anybody has a vid they want to upload to the group feel welcome to do so.

Here's my favorite. I think it does a good job of making it exciting but showing that it's all about reading the map.

The part at the end means "Just running isn't enough."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FswpkQhe0J0&eurl=ht...

Here's another one that's funnier but doesn't explain the sport as much:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7aYMQmdHVp4&feature...

I posted this back in April when it came out, but since there's a flurry of O-Video links, I'll put it out there again. Filmed at an early season WCOC meet and broadcast on CPTV - our local PBS affiliate

http://www.cptv2.org/allthingsct/inside-out/orient...

PS - Quite a few AP'ers appear in the video...

I really like Jagge's team orienteering idea. It is precisely the reason we created the Salomon Dontgetlost.ca Adventure Running Series.

I especially like the idea of it being paired with a mass start ultra long race.

One could think of the team race as a 'time trial' and why not encourage team strategies in the individual mass start race the next day.

Traditionalists would frown on this and perhaps it won't work where the sport is really large. But it could be a great way to expand the sport.

Team strategies are now being used in cross country skiing and triathlon and of course have been in cycling for generations....

Anna, I love that first video!

Hammer, tell traditionalists decades ago we had pair ski O events. Usually strong skier + navigator. Skier skied first and made tracks for the navigator skiing behind with map yelling where to ski. So this is nothing new.

---

About 40 years when age when O expanded here there was no forking in events like 10-mila and Jukola. You didn't have to be excellent navigator, you could just follow if you were fast and strong enough. It was common to have strong skiers and runners without too much nav skills in teams. So these athletes, usually cross country skiers, had a goal and a reason to practice O. Many of these started to do more O after their skiing career.

Today we have forking, but Jukola is such a big event there is all the time other competitors to follow. So even today you can do pretty well without much nav skills. See, there is 15 000 oreinteers in Jukola. Who are these people? Competetive orienteers? No. At leat 50% of them are not actually orienteers, they don't compete in any other O event, only in Jukola. They come from other sports/hobbies, they just do some O training in local training events (not competitions). Lots of them wuold DNF if they had to navigate the course on their own. But in Jukola they do just fine when they navigate together.

What I am saying here in Scandinavia we have always had this intermediate event/format between pure running/XC skiing and technical O, a race where a strong runner/skier can do pretty well without much nav skills. And this format has always been a team sport. Relay, so team does not run together, but there has been this important sosial aspect anyway, O diehards asking runners/skiers to join and race and practice O a little bit before Jukola, and telling they are needed and welcomed, so they feel they are part of the O community.

Note, this is also why asking and talking in forst is so common in Scandinavia. People are used to ask where they are. I think thats the price we pay to get less skilled navigators do more O. Asking and talking gets more common and eventually people are so used to it they don't mind it much and at some point they don't see it as cheating any more but part of the game and eventually event elite runners may ask if they get lost.

Just something to think about.