Discussion: NEOC Sprint Relay

So for any of you who came to the Rock Fest and raced in the relay, what did you think of the format?

great event. no standing around waiting. point scheme seemed fair and there was even a white/yellow relay for the kids.

Well I'm a little slow in the forest so our team didn't finish very well but the event itself was fun. It seemed a little disorganized at first, but once I got out there I realized how much planning had actually gone into this.

It was strange seeing so many people out in the woods (though there was a lot of that this weekend) but I did the B course and thought it was good.

Shuffling the order of the courses amongst the teams is good for mitigating any bad aspects of the mass start - nicer than true forking which can feel unfair.

Obviously I think it's great to have W/Y relay.

Thank you so much, Liz! et al.!

I liked that the relay was a sprint. Provides for exciting spectating instead of standing around for a couple hours while people trickle in.

It was amazing. I can't remember ever experiencing a relay as exciting as the sprint relay was. Knowing that each runner was going to be coming back in a little over 10 minutes made the anticipation very high.

I didn't realize that it was going to be as serious an event as it was and I was amazed by the number of participants especially after a tough course in the morning and a long course coming up the next day. I know how much fun the sprints have been, but for A-Meets I think the sprint relay is the perfect event because it provides such a great spectator opportunity.

I think that we should figure out a way to get future relays like this into the Sprint Series. Perhaps we can give 30 points to each member of the winning team, 27 to each member of the second place team, and then 24, 21, etc.

I really hope to see more relays like this in the future.

I liked both the format and the execution - (nice courses by Tim Parson), seemingly seamless start & tag-offs.

Were the top 3 teams in each category ever announced?

I very much liked the concept and execution also. It definitely had a good feel for a good relay--a lot of excitement and fun, fast courses.

Contrast this with the US Relay Champs. I hope future relay course setters take note of this event. Long relays are tedious, and not very exciting because of the vast range of abilities. Short loops provide excitement and quick changes.
Longer races prove nothing in the results, I'm pretty sure that the results of this relay would have been the same if the event had been 2 or 3 times longer.
Can we advocate for US relay champ courses to be HALF of what they are these days? Four courses with a winning time of 60-80 minutes for the entire event?

And what do people think of the relay champs having three legs, rather than four? This would enable more clubs to field competitive teams. (This isn't my idea, but I think it is a good one.)

coach wrote, "Contrast this with the US Relay Champs. I hope future relay course setters take note of this event."

I'm not sure he intended the meaning I got from his two sentences, but the relay course setters for the US Champs are asked to design courses with "target times for all winning U.S. championship teams" of "2 hours and 30 minutes".

So, at least for the US Relay Championships, it isn't the setters who should take note, it's the rulemakers.

I've heard several comments that the less competitive teams don't want to wait around for 5 or more hours (basically the winning time times 2 or 2.5 or so), and I have no way to assess that.

On one hand, this year's US Relay Champs might be anomolous because of the extra-long day with the two events (sprint plus relay). Perhaps if the relay was the only event with a morning start, people wouldn't be as concerned about recovery for the next day's event, and they wouldn't mind waiting around and socializing.

On the other hand, shorter relays might be more exciting, and if 2 times the winning time was reasonable for less competitive teams, you might get more teams. If you make it too short, I think you'd have a problem with people feeling like it's worth a trip to an A-Meet, *but* you'd also make it more able to be doubled-up with another event on the same day (e.g., sprint plus relay).

I do agree that clubs need more relays, and short relays should draw more attendence.

Some pics from the Sprint Relay are posted here. A few from Sunday also posted on page 2. It was dark during the relay so had to crank the gain to freeze the action...higher gain = higher noise. Nice shot of Dasha flying the DVOA colors and Dave smoting a ditch.

Can we advocate for US relay champ courses to be HALF of what they are these days? Four courses with a winning time of 60-80 minutes for the entire event?

If XYOC were to bid and be awarded the US Relay Champs, and were to suggest the above change to the courses approximately 2 months prior to the event, I wonder if a 215-mssage thread titled "XYOC plans to change rules on US Relays Champs" would ensue. I strongly guess not. But, XYOC would be in clear direct violation of USOF Rules of competition.

Liz, I really enjoyed the sprint relay, I thought the course length and number of legs were appropriate. great job with the idea and execution!

Thanks for the feedback everyone. The race seemed successful from my point of view, but I really wanted to hear from all of you. Tim Parson deserves major kudos for the courses and execution of the race, along with great work by the vetter (Michael Hughes), finish/results crew and others who helped with registration, radio control, etc. I hope you all liked the rest of the weekend too. Thanks for coming!

To be fair, one of the reasons there wouldn't be a 215 message thread is that XYOC would be in clear direct violation of a single rule. In the recent kerfuffle, several changes to the usual relay format were initially proposed and some of the relevant rules were ambiguous, particularly the one that failed to specify precisely how far in advance the relay format ought to be publicised.

Well, the good thing is that now there seems to be sufficient time to hash out the ultimate relay format and rules for next year's champs. But, we do need a host club, no?

Here are the results for the top three teams in each Sprint Relay category. The full results for this race and the others this weekend will be posted soon on the NEOC website.

W/Y teams (2 person):
1st - A Team: Ethan Childs and Andrew Childs: 27:51
2nd - NEOC Parson: Benjamin Parson and Meg Parson: 31:32
3rd - Brer Bears: Calvin Underwood and Carl Underwood: 42:15

3 point teams:
1st - The Wave: Erin Schrim, Mike Sandstrom, and John Fredrickson: 41:03
2nd - QOC Young and...: David Onkst, Ted Good, and Andy Strat: 44:45
3rd - Something Fuzzy: Samantha Saeger, Zan Armstrong, and Ross Smith: 44:48

6 point teams:
1st - Federers'all: Kristin Hall, Tony Federer, and Andy Hall: 49:34
2nd - UNO: Jim Arsenault, Deb Humiston, and Ernst Linder: 55:06
3rd - Cheer-O's: Erin Olafsen, Tracey Olafsen, and Steve Olafsen: 59:23

9 point teams:
1st - CNYOldsters: Peter Dady, Barb Dominie, and Eric Smith: 1:14:40
2nd - Hudson Valley: Bob Bullions, Judy Dickinson, and Valeriy Dovernov: 1:15:59
3rd - Childs Play: Carl Childs, MaryJo Childs, and Ethan Childs: 1:25:35

Intercollegiate Varsity teams:

1st - USMA Black: Pritchard, Griffith, and Hutchison: 46:07
2nd - USMA Gold: Cook, Hope, and Taron: 53:56
3rd - USMA Grey: Sherburne, Perkins, and Boyles: 55:21

Intercollegiate JV teams:

1st - USMA Green: Furst, Stilwell, and Scrivner: 55:09
2nd - USMA Red: Freeman, Beckwith, and Trump: 1:06:09
3rd - Norwich JV2: Bukowski, Dougherty, and Meekins: 1:50:19

College Club teams:

1st - MIT: Brendan Shields, Vanessa Wood, and Lori Huberman: 59:59
2nd - USMA Club A: 1:04:28
3rd - USMA Club B: 1:15:51

0 point teams (not an official category but could be next time):

1st - Ninja Sperm: Matt Spencer, Mark Pittman, and Leif Anderson: 45:33
2nd - Ken: Ken Walker Jr, Ken Walker Sr, and Ken Walker Jr : 45:36

I may have missed this in the discussion somewhere, but for those watching at home, were all those categories listed above running the same courses? (That is, can you compare times across categories?)
Looks like a great event with great competition!!!

Yes, you can compare times across all categories except W/Y teams. Basically we offered two relays with the same mass start: a three-leg relay (A, B, C) for anyone with at least Orange-level skills and a two-leg relay with White and Yellow legs. The order of the legs was mixed, so each team ran all loops but not in the same order. For the main relay, the course setter and vetter attempted to make the three legs as close to equal as possible. Valerie Meyer has entered the maps into RouteGadget at http://vmeyer.net/gadget/cgi-bin/reitti.cgi

I didn't run on the Ken team. It was too cold. There was a long course to do on the next day. And, no Sprint Series points. And, I couldn't figure out the point system.

The sheet I got on the morning of the event referred to "USOF point system", of which existence everyone by now should be particularly doubtful. And, the sheet stated that teams with 0–3 points were in the 3-pt category, those with 4–6 points, in the 6-pt, and so on... looking at the results, it seems that the 3-pt category was, in fact, those teams with 3 points and greater. How's that for changing the point system in advance of the event?

Then I guess we'll have to figure out who the third person was on Ken's relay team. Vlad is right about the points system being confusing. I made a mistake when I put together the relay info and form. The information sheet was correct (it said, for ex:, that a 3-point team must have at least 3 points) but the form itself said something else (0-3 pts).

Most teams that registered on Saturday were provided with the correct values when they submitted their team forms, and the teams that had registered before that were notified of the correction that morning so they could decide whether to change their team or not based on the correct values.

I think it was Oslo. Ken Oslo.

Thanks. By the way, we weren't trying to change USOF rules anyway. Except for the Varsity and JV teams (who weren't affected by the point structure at all) this was just an unsanctioned informal relay to benefit the 2006 team to the World University O Championships.

My team had 3 points, but we are listed in the "0" point category in the results above. Of course, we're out of the medals in the 3pt cat :) Yeah, it was Ken Jr. who ran leg1 *and* leg3 on the Ken team.

Sorry about that, Eddie. I just deleted it from the 0 list above, and we'll correct it in the results, along with Ken Jr's name for two legs.

For those who wasn't around, in about 1998, at the Crystal Relays, the infamous Swampfox ran a leg on the championship team as M. Platt, and a later leg on another team as the mysterious Oslo.

Isn't that the name Mikell gave to the guy who was eating our leftovers from the fridge at the hostel in Sweden?