Discussion: Cellphone navigation article
in: Orienteering; Gear & Toys
Feb 19, 2009 1:47 AM
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RJM:
This article from the NYT might be of some interest. It's great to see the prominence of maps in the piece, but it raises some troubling questions for maplovers and orienteers about the challenges we face from new phone and gps technology (discussed earlier in several other threads. This article seems to suggest that we are inching closer to some even more startling capabilities. A map and compass still does it for me, and probably for you, but once all phones can do what's described in this article, will we get newcomers, or will they just follow their phones?
Feb 19, 2009 2:20 AM
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Coincidentally, Cascade OC is hosting an orienteering event specifically for teams with cell phones next month (although the phones will be used in a different way).
Since it'll take place via phone, anyone in the world can participate, and we're hoping that the novelty will get some international folks involved.
We've discussed the possibility of cheating at this event, and while it's technologically possible (sending the map to an iPhone, for example) , we think most players will be honest about it, since it's supposed to be a fun fund-raiser for the juniors.
But the possibility for substantial cheating is already here. Just get a snap an image of the map with the phone's camera, program a quick way to quickly georeference the image with the onboard GPS, and voila, you have your precise location overlayed on top of an o-map. I betcha we could have this on the iPhone App Store tomorrow if we really wanted to...
Since it'll take place via phone, anyone in the world can participate, and we're hoping that the novelty will get some international folks involved.
We've discussed the possibility of cheating at this event, and while it's technologically possible (sending the map to an iPhone, for example) , we think most players will be honest about it, since it's supposed to be a fun fund-raiser for the juniors.
But the possibility for substantial cheating is already here. Just get a snap an image of the map with the phone's camera, program a quick way to quickly georeference the image with the onboard GPS, and voila, you have your precise location overlayed on top of an o-map. I betcha we could have this on the iPhone App Store tomorrow if we really wanted to...
Feb 19, 2009 2:35 AM
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but then you still need to run and "punch" the controls. All the time spent programming a phone would be wasted when an "real" orienteer running with the map and compass is 5 mins in front already and has planned their course in the meantime.
Feb 19, 2009 3:42 AM
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"you have your precise location overlayed on top of an o-map" Knowing precisely where you are doesn't necessarily get you where you want to go next. You still have to interpret the terrain ahead of you and choose the correct route. And like mouse136 says, you are already 5 minutes down on a "real" orienteer.
Feb 19, 2009 5:43 PM
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What if it's not 5 minutes? What if it's just 30 seconds*? If you're running in a race with a winning time of 60 minutes, that 30 seconds is less than 1% of your race. Is having a 3.5" inch color map with your exact location worth that 1%? Yes, you still have to run hard and pick a good route. But you can probably run a little harder knowing exactly where you are all the time, less hesitations, etc.
* 30-seconds or less iPhone App
1) take photo of map with onboard camera
2) touch your exact position on the image/map with the touchscreen
3) touch the edge of the image/map directly north of your current position (georeferences your image/map rotationally)
4) pinch the two edges of the scale on the image/map. this prompts a touchscreen number-pad where you enter the distance in meters of the scale (georeferences your image/map in scale)
* 30-seconds or less iPhone App
1) take photo of map with onboard camera
2) touch your exact position on the image/map with the touchscreen
3) touch the edge of the image/map directly north of your current position (georeferences your image/map rotationally)
4) pinch the two edges of the scale on the image/map. this prompts a touchscreen number-pad where you enter the distance in meters of the scale (georeferences your image/map in scale)
Feb 19, 2009 10:13 PM
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A "real" orienteer who's a techno geek knows he's faster without the gadget. :-)
Feb 21, 2009 4:14 AM
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Learn to embrace the new technology otherwise it will leave orienteering behind. Progress brings change and people, companies, organisation etc who can deal with the chance and use it to their advantage will survive.
If people want to use phones, let them. Create a class that caters for phones or create a series where phones are the only navigational aid (other than the course map)
The statement "a real orienteer would beat a techno geek" seems to suggest that the techno geek isn't an orienteer. Why? Ask some real purists and they'll tell you a real orienteer doesn't use a compass. Standards change with time and if orienteering doesn't change, it will be left behind.
If people want to use phones, let them. Create a class that caters for phones or create a series where phones are the only navigational aid (other than the course map)
The statement "a real orienteer would beat a techno geek" seems to suggest that the techno geek isn't an orienteer. Why? Ask some real purists and they'll tell you a real orienteer doesn't use a compass. Standards change with time and if orienteering doesn't change, it will be left behind.
Feb 21, 2009 8:04 AM
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embracing new tachnology is ok with me but using t to cheat is not ok with me. The use of an iphone to do what was explained above is like using a motorbike in the bike section of a triathlon. not on and not legal.
Feb 21, 2009 9:38 AM
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Larry :
i think the phone navigation series is more of a thing for adventure racing, seems to suit that a bit better, more long distance urban style.
Feb 21, 2009 11:56 AM
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Let people use phones, or whatever they want - they will be slower, but happy.
Feb 21, 2009 12:44 PM
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Learn to embrace the new technology otherwise it will leave orienteering behind.
This is like asking Major League Baseball to allow metal bats (it is one of the few levels of American baseball that does not)
This is like asking the Olympics to allow biochemical performance enhancing substances.
I think it is reasonable to design or maintain a sport's rules to include or exclude certain technologies that make the sport what it is or isn't. I don't have an opinion on cell phone orienteering, but it seems odd to suggest changing a sport to include new technologies just because these technologies exist, or under the vague banners of "progress", "change", etc. MLB was not "left behind" because it did not imbrace new bat technology.
If there is compelling evidence that the sport is more fun for more people involved with it with a new technology, then that would be the good reason to add it.
I don't know why MLB people want only wooden bats. I don't know why people object to doping technology, and so on, but they do. I think they think the sports are better without this technology. So that is the way I think it needs to be looked at.
JMHO, of course.
This is like asking Major League Baseball to allow metal bats (it is one of the few levels of American baseball that does not)
This is like asking the Olympics to allow biochemical performance enhancing substances.
I think it is reasonable to design or maintain a sport's rules to include or exclude certain technologies that make the sport what it is or isn't. I don't have an opinion on cell phone orienteering, but it seems odd to suggest changing a sport to include new technologies just because these technologies exist, or under the vague banners of "progress", "change", etc. MLB was not "left behind" because it did not imbrace new bat technology.
If there is compelling evidence that the sport is more fun for more people involved with it with a new technology, then that would be the good reason to add it.
I don't know why MLB people want only wooden bats. I don't know why people object to doping technology, and so on, but they do. I think they think the sports are better without this technology. So that is the way I think it needs to be looked at.
JMHO, of course.
Feb 21, 2009 12:54 PM
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No it isn't like asking etc etc. We should not change the sport and we don't have to. If the technogeeks can self delude themselves into thinking a phone can help, why worry? It can't. There is no advantage to using a phone; as there might be with drugs or metal bats. If these technogeeks learnt how to read a map properly and run, they would go faster than trying to use a phone.
Feb 21, 2009 4:29 PM
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It's naive to assume that the technology will never exist (if it doesn't already) that would provide a real advantage to real orienteers, just like Randy's other examples. Both of you agreed that there's no need to change the sport, and I think it's a rather silly argument - change the sport to include this stuff and it's really just a new sport. Go find a new online community. ;-)
Feb 21, 2009 7:48 PM
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Orienteering is like a little vacation I take about every other weekend. I can leave the cell phones, computers, internet, etc. behind. I don't want them with me when I go into the woods where I run, read my map, and enjoy the scenery. I don't have to answer the phone or respond to an email. I find it relaxing to run and think about my options to navigate the course. There's a romance about the sport and part of that is using the navigation tools used for centuries before. To me that is the heart of the sport. To me many O-maps are works of art. I prefer to view these works of art on paper not on a miniture color screen.
Feb 22, 2009 4:29 PM
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While on the O' course, would the technogeek have the will power to ignore his cell phone calls, Internet messages, and twitter comments for a full hour? :)
Feb 22, 2009 5:26 PM
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I am actually working on getting orienteering maps on a GPS or mobile phone where you can see your position on the map. The motivation for this is to get young people interested in the sport (the technology may attract some), and also to better be able to teach young people orienteering as they can better see the relation between map and terrain when there is a red dot on the map showing them where they are at the moment. Here is a video (Norwegian subtitles - not the best music) which shows a demo of an orienteering map on a mobile phone where your current position is shown,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uB8xpFHuBqQ&feature...
It works quite well - both on a sprint map as shown above and in the terrain (not shown, but tested with success). The next step is to get this on a watertight unit, and get rid of the need for an external GPS unit. We actually got quite a lot of funding (~ $10.000) to develop this and buy a set of GPS-units due to the potential for getting young people interested in both orienteering and GPS units - and improving their mapreading capabilities.
Of course - in normal orienteering races these types of tools must be forbidden - that is nothing to discuss. This is thought for teaching and getting up interest.
If somebody has any tips about how to best proceeds, I'm happy for ideas. One option is to try to convert OCAD-files to Garmin-maps - the other option is to continue with raster based maps as in the mobile phone example shown in the video above.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uB8xpFHuBqQ&feature...
It works quite well - both on a sprint map as shown above and in the terrain (not shown, but tested with success). The next step is to get this on a watertight unit, and get rid of the need for an external GPS unit. We actually got quite a lot of funding (~ $10.000) to develop this and buy a set of GPS-units due to the potential for getting young people interested in both orienteering and GPS units - and improving their mapreading capabilities.
Of course - in normal orienteering races these types of tools must be forbidden - that is nothing to discuss. This is thought for teaching and getting up interest.
If somebody has any tips about how to best proceeds, I'm happy for ideas. One option is to try to convert OCAD-files to Garmin-maps - the other option is to continue with raster based maps as in the mobile phone example shown in the video above.
Feb 23, 2009 2:03 AM
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Allow mobile phones during events, as long as they can take calls.
Feb 23, 2009 6:10 AM
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Interesting that this discussion started as a idea from a NY Times article and ends with an application that does what the futurist article suggests, maybe the Norwegian's are ahead of the Americans?
The Phone map thing almost looks like to could help in complex terrain - certainly would solve relocation.
The Phone map thing almost looks like to could help in complex terrain - certainly would solve relocation.
Feb 23, 2009 11:35 AM
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in normal orienteering races these types of tools must be forbidden - that is nothing to discuss.
One wonders how such enforcement would occur in practice. The evidence suggests that the honor system would not be 100% effective.
One wonders how such enforcement would occur in practice. The evidence suggests that the honor system would not be 100% effective.
Feb 23, 2009 12:51 PM
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At least it would solve the problem of Europeans hanging around controls trying to get a look at your map as you punch.
Feb 23, 2009 11:10 PM
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in normal orienteering races these types of tools must be forbidden - that is nothing to discuss I agree with randy! Enforcement would be difficult. Of course my view is that it would also be pointless because there is no advantage gained by having a phone with you. In events where you are given the map at the start are you really going to get out your scanner and start geo-referencing the map into your phone?
Feb 23, 2009 11:11 PM
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The Phone map thing almost looks like to could help in complex terrain - certainly would solve relocation So if you get lost you can find your way back, until you get lost the next time? That's not an advantage.
Feb 23, 2009 11:28 PM
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It really doesn't need to be a phone. It just needs to be an image capture device with a GPS. It just so happens that an iPhone is both, plus a phone.
Anyway, I think the wood/metal bat issue is a good analogy. Both a metal bat and a GPS map turn minimize mistakes.
In baseball, a metal bat hits the ball farther than a wood one. A home run with a wooden bat would also be a home run with a metal bat. However, what used to be a "mistake" with a wooden bat-- say a fly ball to deep left field-- is now a home run, because the metal bat allows you to hit the ball just a little bit further.
In orienteering, if you are a perfect orienteer, is doesn't matter what you have in your hand. But if you make a mistake, a GPS device will definitely minimize the mistake. Maybe what used to be a 30-second mistake is now only 10 seconds. What used to be 2 minutes is now 30 seconds. That's where the advantage is.
How many orienteers are perfect (other than Eoin)? If you're a perfect orienteer, a GPS won't help. But if you make mistakes, no matter how large, this sort of tool will be able to help you, as long as you know how to use it.
----
PS-- less than a month until MoboGoGlobo!, the event where mobile phones are legal... but not in way we're discussing ;-). Anyone can participate. Yes, even you.
Anyway, I think the wood/metal bat issue is a good analogy. Both a metal bat and a GPS map turn minimize mistakes.
In baseball, a metal bat hits the ball farther than a wood one. A home run with a wooden bat would also be a home run with a metal bat. However, what used to be a "mistake" with a wooden bat-- say a fly ball to deep left field-- is now a home run, because the metal bat allows you to hit the ball just a little bit further.
In orienteering, if you are a perfect orienteer, is doesn't matter what you have in your hand. But if you make a mistake, a GPS device will definitely minimize the mistake. Maybe what used to be a 30-second mistake is now only 10 seconds. What used to be 2 minutes is now 30 seconds. That's where the advantage is.
How many orienteers are perfect (other than Eoin)? If you're a perfect orienteer, a GPS won't help. But if you make mistakes, no matter how large, this sort of tool will be able to help you, as long as you know how to use it.
----
PS-- less than a month until MoboGoGlobo!, the event where mobile phones are legal... but not in way we're discussing ;-). Anyone can participate. Yes, even you.
Feb 24, 2009 5:10 AM
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I'm curious: How many people reading this thread have tried mobile O (where a team of two is comprised of one person who actually runs the course and another who reads the map and gives the runner instructions by phone)?
I don't think it should replace existing varieties of the sport, but it's great fun and a good training exercise, since it gets you to think about what information you want (if you're the runner) and convey this to your partner (the navigator). If you're the navigator, you get to practice looking at the map and distilling a useful set of instructions for the runner while processing the runner's real-time feedback and monitoring for proper progress along the route. Does what the runner is saying fit with where the runner is supposed to go, or could the runner be making a parallel error?
Relocating using terrain observations reported over the phone is quite satisfying, maybe even more so since you don't have to lose any additional drops of sweat yourself to get back on course. I relocated from over 8000 km away while waiting to get on a flight at London Heathrow Airport.
I'm signed up as a local runner for MoboGoGlobo! and very much looking forward to this opportunity to run mobile O again.
I don't think it should replace existing varieties of the sport, but it's great fun and a good training exercise, since it gets you to think about what information you want (if you're the runner) and convey this to your partner (the navigator). If you're the navigator, you get to practice looking at the map and distilling a useful set of instructions for the runner while processing the runner's real-time feedback and monitoring for proper progress along the route. Does what the runner is saying fit with where the runner is supposed to go, or could the runner be making a parallel error?
Relocating using terrain observations reported over the phone is quite satisfying, maybe even more so since you don't have to lose any additional drops of sweat yourself to get back on course. I relocated from over 8000 km away while waiting to get on a flight at London Heathrow Airport.
I'm signed up as a local runner for MoboGoGlobo! and very much looking forward to this opportunity to run mobile O again.
Feb 24, 2009 10:10 AM
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if someone likes to do experiments, for example AFTrack can use jpg images (photo) and it has tools for geo referencing jpg image on the fly using current coordinates from gps, internal or external.
http://www.afischer-online.de/sos/AFTrack/
It that doesn't work, there is other similar apps out there.
This app can be easily used for live tracking:
http://sportstracker.nokia.com/nts/main/index.do
Just click round dots ot the map to see how one are doing, I guess there is always someone using it. Just run with cell phone on your pocket and web viewers can see how you are doing - on satellite image. Latest versions of the app can be found here, it supports Polar HRM belt so you can see competitors heart rate live on tracking map: http://research.nokia.com/research/projects/Sports...
I have played with a little script for reading coordinates from cell phone's internal GPS and overlying it on raster image exported from 0cad. It really wouldn't be a big deal to add tools for geo referencing photo of map on the fly by pointing current location on map image couple of times during the race. I have used Nokias, but
it all can be done with the new IPhone too for sure, and apps may be available already - but IPhone's camera is really poor, you may not be able to take decent photos of the map with it.
http://www.afischer-online.de/sos/AFTrack/
It that doesn't work, there is other similar apps out there.
This app can be easily used for live tracking:
http://sportstracker.nokia.com/nts/main/index.do
Just click round dots ot the map to see how one are doing, I guess there is always someone using it. Just run with cell phone on your pocket and web viewers can see how you are doing - on satellite image. Latest versions of the app can be found here, it supports Polar HRM belt so you can see competitors heart rate live on tracking map: http://research.nokia.com/research/projects/Sports...
I have played with a little script for reading coordinates from cell phone's internal GPS and overlying it on raster image exported from 0cad. It really wouldn't be a big deal to add tools for geo referencing photo of map on the fly by pointing current location on map image couple of times during the race. I have used Nokias, but
it all can be done with the new IPhone too for sure, and apps may be available already - but IPhone's camera is really poor, you may not be able to take decent photos of the map with it.
Feb 24, 2009 10:48 AM
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I just organized this weekend event (http://skryse.blogspot.com/) where orienteering (score-o) and geocaching were combined. There were two categories for the same course - GPS and Compass. I received very positive feedback both from geocachers and orienteers. So far compass win, but GPS is closing up.
Map sample:
http://ob_lbe.sweb.cz/Lokomotiva%20Beroun%20OB_sou...
Combined results:
http://img.geocaching.com/cache/14de1c93-3396-4d3c...
Map sample:
http://ob_lbe.sweb.cz/Lokomotiva%20Beroun%20OB_sou...
Combined results:
http://img.geocaching.com/cache/14de1c93-3396-4d3c...
Feb 24, 2009 3:31 PM
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hey jankoc, have you thought of using this type of display?
http://www.4hiddenspycameras.com/eyemoglce.html
http://www.4hiddenspycameras.com/eyemoglce.html
Feb 25, 2009 12:47 PM
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It is quite easy to make what I am looking for at a S60-device, for Iphone, Android or similar - for all these it should be doable to program something with georeferences raster maps.
The problem is that I need something that can handle all the rain we have here. And then it seems like I need to move over to dedicated GPS units. I have only found one GPS-unit that is possible to program for the use with georeferenced raster maps, and that is the quite expensive (and not too much used) Magellan Triton 2000.
Alternatively it seems like it is necessary to go for all the extra hassle with vector maps converted from OCAD-files. E.g. using a Garmin GPS. Seems like the latest method will be the one we go for, or does anybody have a better idea?
terrainrunner: Can you get me those cheap, waterproof and durable for forest use?
The problem is that I need something that can handle all the rain we have here. And then it seems like I need to move over to dedicated GPS units. I have only found one GPS-unit that is possible to program for the use with georeferenced raster maps, and that is the quite expensive (and not too much used) Magellan Triton 2000.
Alternatively it seems like it is necessary to go for all the extra hassle with vector maps converted from OCAD-files. E.g. using a Garmin GPS. Seems like the latest method will be the one we go for, or does anybody have a better idea?
terrainrunner: Can you get me those cheap, waterproof and durable for forest use?
Feb 25, 2009 2:50 PM
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SE C702 looks interesting - I'll take a look at that. I guess you would run Java on that one (no S60 as far as I can see)?
Feb 25, 2009 3:39 PM
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I think you run your own Java apps on that for sure. And I guess there must be documentation how to use the internal GPS form java too. It's quite new model - no idea how well the GPS works in forest, but it has some sort of Forerunner like sport tracker app installed when you buy it so GPS must work at least somehow while you run.
I don't think Nokia has any waterproof phones with internal GPS. Nokia 5500 Sport is waterproof s60 device, but you would have to use external gps. Maybe not the worst choice if you can live with external gps, those phones are not too expensive. As far as I know even Nokias new sports phone N79 Active with HRM strap and all is't waterproof. So one should sweat enough to make HRM strap work, but not too much to keep the phone dry. I wonder it HRM is used just for that purpose, if HR is too high you get sweat alert, "protect your phone from sweat"...
Sony has long tradition for making waterproof toys, so C702 may be weatherproof enough.
I don't think Nokia has any waterproof phones with internal GPS. Nokia 5500 Sport is waterproof s60 device, but you would have to use external gps. Maybe not the worst choice if you can live with external gps, those phones are not too expensive. As far as I know even Nokias new sports phone N79 Active with HRM strap and all is't waterproof. So one should sweat enough to make HRM strap work, but not too much to keep the phone dry. I wonder it HRM is used just for that purpose, if HR is too high you get sweat alert, "protect your phone from sweat"...
Sony has long tradition for making waterproof toys, so C702 may be weatherproof enough.
Oct 11, 2009 2:25 PM
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8 months later - and I've got this to work (got it to work in March/April actually, but no time for the write-up until now).
Here is a step-by-step writeup to get it to work on a Garmin GPS,
http://news.worldofo.com/2009/10/11/howto-convert-...
For the new Garmin GPS-units (Oregon/Dakota/Colorado) it has just gotten a lot easier due to the new custom-map feature. I'll write about that during the next week or so.
I've also done some testing on Android phones and Iphones. On Android it seems to work quite well - on Iphone there are still some problems (and unfortunately I have not got my own Iphone to test on). If anybody wants to test using Iphone (I'd need it for the third article in the series), go to:
http://omaps.worldofo.com/m/
Choose "Closest maps", and if you are on one of the maps in omaps.worldofo.com which has full geo-info included, you may press "Experimental" on the map page. This will give you a link like this (but a different for each map),
http://omaps.worldofo.com/viewonmap.php?id=12666
with a red dot showing your position - updated every 2 seconds.
Here is a step-by-step writeup to get it to work on a Garmin GPS,
http://news.worldofo.com/2009/10/11/howto-convert-...
For the new Garmin GPS-units (Oregon/Dakota/Colorado) it has just gotten a lot easier due to the new custom-map feature. I'll write about that during the next week or so.
I've also done some testing on Android phones and Iphones. On Android it seems to work quite well - on Iphone there are still some problems (and unfortunately I have not got my own Iphone to test on). If anybody wants to test using Iphone (I'd need it for the third article in the series), go to:
http://omaps.worldofo.com/m/
Choose "Closest maps", and if you are on one of the maps in omaps.worldofo.com which has full geo-info included, you may press "Experimental" on the map page. This will give you a link like this (but a different for each map),
http://omaps.worldofo.com/viewonmap.php?id=12666
with a red dot showing your position - updated every 2 seconds.
This discussion thread is closed.