Discussion: Cost of orienteering

In the thread on the USOF ED posting, ebuckley wrote:
"However, there is another option: screw sponsorship; pay for it ourselves. If a meet can't be run on $22/day, charge more. Our event fees are tiny fractions of what most amatuer sports charge. You're worried that families can't afford it? Have you looked at the price for youth soccer lately? It hasn't slowed that sport down any."

I agree completely, but thought I would start a new thread as this seemed to be getting off that topic a bit. My basic question is: How do we go about increasing the amount we charge for our sport? (Of course maybe some don't think we should but I do).

(I see also there is a related discussion going on in the context of QOC's meet fees for an upcoming race)

I have been orienteering some 30+ years and have never figured this out. I think part of the issue is that collectively (in North America anyway) we haven't sorted out what to do about the fact that we are both an elite sport and a family recreation. We tend to feel 'guilty' about charging 'too much' to participate in our sport even though 'common sense' and the invoices from professional mappers etc. tells me we should be. People think nothing of dropping hundreds of $ to sign their kids up for gymnastics or hockey, often including far more expensive equipment, ice time, professional coaching etc. yet we feel awkward about $25-30 for a national championships, or get complaints when we do increase the cost of an evening meet from $5 to $6 etc. I've even had cheapskates suggest that If they keep the map from this event they should be able to use it again the next time on the same area for free!
There may be many possible options - full cost accounting of what our meets and maps are costing, then better communication about this to members and newcomers. ("Here's where your tax dollars go" kind of thing) Another one might be to start charging (or charging more) for local youth coaching. If my daughter wants to do figure skating, it's understood that there will be a (pretty hefty) coaching cost. Why are we shy about charging for coaching, esp. if it includes set up time of designing courses, hanging flags etc.
I would be interested in hearing people's thoughts.

Increasing the cost of orienteering may be the way to go in order for the sport to survive and improve in its technology aspect and enjoyment for participants but I have not been a regular orienteer for some time due to the cost involved.

The other sports I play include cricket and golf. Both are in areas close to home and require no travel to the games. This takes out a main reason I gave up orienteering. The cost of travelling to events, cost of accommodation and feeding the family whilst there all adds up. On top of the travel, accommodation and feeding is the equipment cost (compass, orienteering clothing, shoes etc) and cost to enter the event and yearly membership fees.

Cricket requires no accommodation, travel is minimal as the games are in the local area and yearly membership fees are less than orienteering. The most expensive thing is the after game beers to talk up your efforts or drown your sorrows.

I love going orienteering and hope to get my daughters involved in the future but will not travel to events due to the cost involved.

hey mikey,

struggle to understand this logic a little. what you have compared is going away to a national championships (or some other major event) compared to a local cricket competition. there are a few problems there. what if you (your kid) goes to a national cricket competition? then you have the same travel/accomodation etc costs (in fact, I bet its a hell of a lot more than orienteering).

as upnorthguy points out, the struggle is with the elite/recreactional divider. I could race in the ACT, with very minimal travel costs and orienteer all year, it would cost much less than playing a season of basketball for instance. however, in orienteering, I have the option of doing more travel and running national championships whether i am elite or not. the only drawback on that is that orienteering is, to some degree, more dependent on travel (depending on where you live - although thats the same argument as many other sports, because different areas are required for different challenges).

back to the point though - Orienteering Australia has considered trying to provide a background of the typical costs of putting on an event at different levels (weekly through to major champinship) to enlighten people on how ridiculously cheap the sport is (ie its not near normal user pays amounts that most sports charge). the costs would include mapping and depreciation, equipment use and depreciation, deciding on a nominal amount/value of the volunteer hours involved etc.

Alas we havent done it, because we havent had the time in our volunteer hours. i think though, because orienteering has established a tradition of cheapness, the only way to change it would be a targeted, gradual and educational approach.

As registrar for some of the largest orienteering events in Canada, I've heard from some "cost conscious" people too. I resent spending my volunteer time explaining to people - often in multiple e-mail exchanges - why I won't give them the earlybird entry fee that expired 3 weeks ago or the junior price they outgrew two years ago. My favourite complaint was the guy who thought the races at a major championship cost $5 too much, so he wrote me to say that he was boycotting our event. I wonder what his 8-hr car trip, hotel and meals were going to cost compared to the orienteering.,,?

I think that some undervalue our sport because of all the volunteer effort that goes into it - but sometimes it requires *more* volunteer effort because some people aren't willing to pay a little more to offload work from volunteers, e.g. the opponents of online registration transaction fees. I wonder if they kick up the same fuss when they purchase a theatre or sports ticket online. I notice that they never offer to step in themselves and manage registration details for a couple hundred racers manually. They only have time to complain about the indignity of a $2 fee.

Apologies to the majority of orienteers who are normal and sensible, but I'm told that it's a huge cultural shift for some folks to be asked to pay what orienteering events are worth (still a bargain compared to most other activities). What I don't get is why we need to pander to that minority who make things so difficult for the sport. Since I come from outside the culture, I dont' understand, so unfortunately I can't contribute any solutions. But I'm glad it's being discussed, and I'll definitely be listening!

Good point Ben but by living in Wagga to attend even state league events it means travel and accommodation. Even travel to most local events in Wagga is a fair way. im not poo pooing the sport it is a great sport.

I dont think my wife will let our girls play cricket. she hates me playing it as it is"too boring and has no point to it" according to her. so no national champs for me in cricket. They are however be world champion tantrum throwers luckily there is no national champs for that.

low entry costs to some suggest low value and as such they stay away because it can't be worth trying if they have to make it essentially free.

It costs LESS to join a club, be a member of OOA and run in 4-5 events a year here in Ontario now than it did in the 80's....this despite that now we have better maps, post race food and snacks, SI timing, instant results and online splits analysis! There is something wrong there.

One solution to address the price point between both an elite sport and a family recreation is to have more permanent courses for the latter and to charge more for the races for the former.

It seems to be an 'orienteering' thing - as in the sport has what I would presume to be a significant cohort of people who consistently moan about small cost increases. Why don't they bat an eyelid when spending many thousands of dollars on renewing their flash all wheel drive cars and myriad of other optional expenses? However, when it comes to a small cost rise to offset (but not cover) increasing expenses of holding events then the floodgates open to an often vitriolic tirade!

In a couple of other sports I frequent, price hikes of over 300% have occurred in the last 15 years and while noted, are not problematic. Thinking on the fly now, is it because orienteering hasn't got as transient a membership base and so they do remember the price of orienteering in 1973? :-)

Yes Cricket is boring particularly for those not playing whereas with orienteering everyone in the family 'plays' so bang for buck is twice, thrice or quadruple what cricket gives to one member of the family

I have a few thoughts about the cost of orienteering.
I agree that it can be very expensive to travel to meets, to even hit B meets for me, when I was a junior in the Maritimes could cost $50-100 a day between gas(before it was even close to $1 a liter) and meals(that's for a day trip), before I paid the entry. However, many, or all, sports costs easily the same or more to compete at a similar level, travel for a hockey game, skiing for a day. and these all have higher registration costs than orienteering, and most have higher equipment costs. So I see no problem in charging more money for meets, especially in the case of A meets or big B meets etc.

But, there are a few other things to realize, with higher costs, people already in the sport will expect better service, many(not all) people hold their tongues if something is not right at a meet because they realize it is almost entirely volunteers. As people start paying more, I think the complaints will grow as well.

Something I always thought would have been good for clubs and their regular athletes is to reward your casual volunteers. For every X amount of hours you volunteer you get free entry in the next local meet you attend. it doesn't have to be that much, 6 or 8 hours could accumulate pretty quickly, just help pick up controls after 5 meets or so. Rewards will help your volunteers feel appreciated, and keep them happy; happy volunteers are retained volunteers. The other side of this program is that as you recruit new volunteers more people will see the organizational side of the meets, realize how much unpaid work is required, and be less likely to complain about the small stuff, and be more willing to pay the new fees. I also think with increased fees fewer participants will feel the responsibility to help out, even staying after a meet to give a hand cleaning up, if you pay more you expect things to be done for you.

Lastly, one of the goals of orienteering as long as I can remember has been growing the sport. As fees go up fewer people will be willing to try a new sport they know little about and it will be harder to expand. so I also like the idea of allowing the public to try a local meet for free, or heavily discounted prices. I know that it is done at local meets in montreal.

To summarize this lengthy post: Fees need to go up for the sake of everyone involved. But the downsides need to be kept in mind while increasing fees; more complaints, fewer volunteers, less appeal for new athletes.

orienteers must be the most boring people alive. When they don't go orienteering they just sit at home with the lights, the heater/airconditioner, TV, etc off . The don't eat anything all weekend and certainly don't consider going anywhere in the car or perhaps having a meal out.

At least this seems to be the basic assumption everyone is making when they calculate the cost of a weekend away orienteering.

Hammer sez: low entry costs to some suggest low value and as such they stay away because it can't be worth trying if they have to make it essentially free.

Creamer sez: As fees go up fewer people will be willing to try a new sport they know little about and it will be harder to expand.

While most economic theory would support Creamer's position, there's a fair bit of empirical evidence behind Hammer's. Of course, people do expect more if they pay more, but in most amateur sports, the races that pack the huge fields also charge significantly higher fees. I believe that, while there is certainly pushback from within the community, our fees are so low that they could be significantly increased with no impact on recruiting.

Orienteering fees in the US should certainly go up -- if you do the math on quality mapping, thoughtful course setting, negotiating park access with land managers, outreach, etc I'm shocked even big orgs like the QOC cover their expenses!

Seriously, as most on this forum know, a pro map of a new venue is an investment of thousands of dollars ($5K or more, easily, unless it's a tiny parcel or a kid with a Photoshop map). The better the maps -> the better the orienteering -> the more success at all O levels. It's a long term investment that can't be easily covered in just $5 increments.

Take the QOC specifically (fee schedule at http://qoc.nova.org/fees.htm); I would have no problem with them increasing their annual membership from $20 to $50 or $100 -- maybe even $200 if I could avoid paying a few $ a pop at each meet. Call it a "Platinum Membership" or something and let me run all the courses I can handle every weekend I show up. Think of what a golf club membership entails . . . or "membership" at the art museum.

Orienteering should value itself more highly, and others will do likewise.

A lot of the pushback seems to be from families...., to which the answer is better family pricing... so there's pretty much zero incremental costs to bringing kids along.

Family pricing for most B events in Ontario is $15 per adult, and at many events, two parents can pay $5 more to bring along as many kids under 20 as they want. That seems reasonable compared to any other family activity. This doesn't come close to covering costs, so other participants need to understand and accept that part of their entry fee will go toward subsidizing the maps, insurance, park entry fees, cookies and drinks for kids. Hopefully, most people are OK with that.

In the local events the prices are fairly low but for the championships there are higher and for good reason. Even to make a small local event run smoothly takes alot of planning. You get what you pay for in most cases. Fee's for a local event might be ?20 for a family but if you go to an international they can increase to +?100. More money - better maps - bigger buzz!

danf, does SDO waive meet fees for volunteers? I'd like to know. Also, if other clubs waive meet fees for volunteers - is this effective?

My club doesn't do this right now. I find it frustrating, because I think volunteering is a great way to get new members committed. But I'm embarrassed to invite a friend to volunteer, and also ask them to pay. Except for a couple special cases, I haven't pressured the club on this policy. It's a dangerous step to make, because once instituted, it's hard to reverse the sense of entitlement. (Perhaps why there is so much resistance to fee increases. You are fighting many years of 'entitlement' to lower fees)

Also, I agree that the "family" argument is tired and wrong. It is very easy to institute family pricing. In my club, an adult non-member pays $15 per meet, but a youth on the beginner course pays only $3. This is almost trivial.

One issue I have though, is that many of the orienteering events I did last year were strictly for training. I only considered about 10 of these events to be real, focused, RACES. In those cases, I have no issue paying $25-$50 dollars per day.

But anything over $15 dollars starts pricing me out of what I'm willing to pay for a routine training event. (This may not be an issue in some places, but BAOC had about 45 events last year, and they start to feel routine eventually)

At that point, unless there is something unique about the event, I'm likely to forgo the club event and do some solo training. Here is where a regular attender, club membership, or volunteer discount becomes critical to me.

Some good discussion and ideas. Thanks. Volunteer recognition programs could be a whole new topic. Besides vouchers to volunteers for free/discounted meet fees, one idea is to give a voucher for a free coaching session. (but then is someone paying the coach, or are they also a volunteer?) Last year I organized a local race and one woman in particular helped out quite a bit with registration and picking up controls. So I offered a personal one-on-one session following her around a course. But this wasn't part of an official club recognition program - just me wanting to thank her.

For its last few A-meets, ROC has had a policy that volunteers can run free - assuming the job permits it. (Personally, I volunteer for control pickup!) It seems to be a popular policy. Intriguingly, the policy does not seem to extend to local events where the cost to the club is presumably smaller.

With regard to travelling expenses....

As a regular orienteer I travel quite a lot to visit different terrain. In Australia (possibly with the exception of ACT) most of the maps are naturally going to be away from the urban locales that we reside in and I suspect it is may be similar in many places around the world. The outlay to get to such events is not only a monetary one, it also costs time.

Sometimes a total of a full day in one weekend can be spent sitting in a car. I think to many people this is just as off putting as any financial considerations. It's a cross the sport by it's very nature has to bear. (or is that bare)

It would be interesting to learn if anyone knows of a volunteer recognition program that works well. I'm leery of the idea. As soon as you start introducing the concept of compensation, then it's not just volunteering anymore, and people will start to think in terms of fairness and value. Do you compensate every volunteer at an event equally, whether they staffed the cookie table or spent all day vetting the course? Do you ask them to report the number of hours they spent and reward them in proportion?

I volunteer because it's the right thing to do, and it feels good to contribute. I feel just fine - better, in fact - if I get nothing for it (other than thanks). If I get the impression that the 20 hrs I spend on an event is considered to be "paid off" with a $12 entry fee, it might make me *less* happy, not more. And if that same free race entry is given to the person who picked up 3 controls, perhaps I'll be less satisfied with my volunteer experience than if neither of us were getting anything for our efforts. It's kind of risky to mess with this stuff.

There are exceptions, e.g. juniors (who probably actually need the money) might be asked to do a task in return for free entry. A member of a different club (Valerie) might spend 2 hrs solving problems in your club's SI software and thus deserve a refund. But as soon as you start to measure the worth of one club volunteer vs. another, or hand out equal rewards to all regardless of contribution, you risk the perception of unfairness. The easiest way to keep things fair is to charge an entry fee to any club volunteer who gets to do the race.

Yes, I suspect the best motivators for volunteers are feelings of pride, community, and responsibility. This is certainly true for dedicated members.I volunteer quite a bit, and I'm not sure that compensation would encourage me to volunteer more. It might even cause me to volunteer less. Right now, I figure that I attend so many meets, that I reap the benefits of other volunteers.

There is a category of people though, new volunteers, that don't quite fit. I always like to recruit first time volunteers when I direct a meet. Sometimes these people have never even orienteered before (but I find that friends are much more likely to show up if you need their help). Since they have reaped no prior benefits from the club, I feel bad asking them to pay also.

Strangely, my real desire for free participation is not for myself. It is that after spending 30+ hours meet directing or course setting, I want the authority to invite all my friends out to share in the fun!

A very effective volunteer program is run by one of our local running clubs. They hold a season long race series (every Wednesday evening for four months). Obviously, one permanent race staff would burn out on this. However, to be eligible for series awards, you have to volunteer to work the course (which means showing up and not racing) one time during the year. If you want to get out of it, you can recruit your own volunteer to stand in your place and still race (double bonus - the position is filled with someone completely outside the participant community - that person may like what they see). The result is that every race is well marshalled and the series has been going strong for over 30 years. I am planning on putting on a 5-race series this summer with a similar rule: Your best 3 races will count and you have to sit one out and help or nab somebody to help in your place and you can do all five.

some random thoughts on this thread...

So one of the arguments I've heard about the need to keep entry fees and membership fees low is because orienteering is a family sport. Well in an Ontario context anyway I can tell you that there are very very few families attending races. So where are they given how much value we offer for the cost of sport?

Oh I know they are doing the triathlon races at $70 a pop on their $3K road bikes.

Hamilton, is home to North America's oldest road race (sorry Boston but its true) - the Around the Bay Road Race. For over 100 years this was run by one of the local running clubs. Participation was dropping and then it was taken over and run by a private company and now not only is participation up to several thousand but one of the local hospitals benefits from a large annual fundraiser. Entry fees have increased and entries have gone up.

Our largest orienteering race in Hamilton each year is also our most expensive one (The Raid the Hammer).

I'm sure there are some O economists that can explain this.

hammer....

With the road race did the quality of the event go up (don't really know how it could if it were a road run) and hence the increase in numbers? Was there more advertising - I'd expect so if it was a charity fund raiser?

Tell us more about "the hammer" - What is it's appeal? Is it a different or unique format. Is it more expensive because it is the most popular or do you seriously believe it is most popular because it's the dearest?

I 'm not likely to attend an event just because it's now dearer than it was unless I know it's going to be that much better.

untamedadventur: Take the QOC specifically (fee schedule at http://qoc.nova.org/fees.htm); I would have no problem with them increasing their annual membership from $20 to $50 or $100 -- maybe even $200 if I could avoid paying a few $ a pop at each meet. Call it a "Platinum Membership" or something and let me run all the courses I can handle every weekend I show up.

This is an idea that I've been talking to a couple of people about for SLOC. It would also mean less work and time during meet registration. You could have individual and family 'lump-sum' memberships. Personally, I'd jump all over it, both as a meet director and a participant. Have any clubs tried it? How do you track the memberships.

Yukon is trying a variation of this. Here is our structure for 2009:
Membership Type and Fees: (includes Canadian Orienteering Fed. membership and season SI rental) Adult: $30
Junior (20&under): $20 Family: $70

Pre-paid Event Fees: For all Wednesday Night Events (ca 10 events i think) and the Yukon Championships Adult: $40
Junior (meet only): $30 Jr. Program: $40 (Junior Program includes 10 practices every second Wednesday)

Surely simply offering a higher membership fee for people to pike out of any obligation to assist at events with a (relatively) clear conscience will simply decrease the volunteer pool? Certainly we'd have a number of valued volunteers who'd pay the higher sum and breathe a big sigh of relief at decreased perceived obligation to help. I doubt the increased membership income would cover the massive costs of paying others to take over the missing volunteer hours.

Hammer(ed): Our largest orienteering race in Hamilton each year is also our most expensive one (The Raid the Hammer). I'm sure there are some O economists that can explain this.

I'll take a stab - it was taken over by a profit-driven company whose aim was to make money. So entry fees go up. They know that participation is the key to making more money, so they promote the hell out of it and numbers go up.

Compare this with your average orienteering club, which is a not-for-profit enterprise....or at least in Western Australia they certainly are.

More generally: The suggestion that raising prices will somehow increase participation, simply because the more expensive adventure sports have higher participation, is a complete failure of logic. The more expensive sports charge more because there is a demand for them, not the other way around.

They have promoted themselves enough to make themselves almost part of the popular vernacular - you can say you do triathlons and everyone knows what you mean. There are tris for kids as young as 7 being advertised on the back of cereal boxes. Yet say you do orienteering and most people dredge up a memory of something they did at school and say "oooh...that's a map thing yeah?"

To answer upnorthguy's original question: How can anyone justify charging premium prices for something people either a) don't know what is, or b) don't know that they want to do?

Actually, the Raid The Hammer event is NOT run by a for-profit company. I don't know the for-profit status of the private company that does the Around the Bay.

As perhaps the most regularly enthusiastic American participant in the RTH series, I can say that it is the most expensive race I run each fall, but not by a large margin. I went originally because of "word of mouth" advertising. I continue to go and recruit new teammates because of its relative uniqueness (team event, multiple running/orienteering phases, "surprise" - in a fair sense - factor) and the knowledge that it will be one of the highest quality events I attend each year. If it lost either the uniqueness or the quality on a more than "one off" basis, I would certainly be looking elsewhere. And, I would volunteer to help put on the race were it not such a distance from my home.

As for the Around the Bay, many of my co-workers attend almost every year. They speak to the venue, the course, and the fact that it is also well organized. Some who have been attending longer have told me about the uptick in quality (fewer hassles, better amenities) that came in with the new organizers. Although I can't speak directly about this race, it also appears that superior organization is a key element in drawing these folks.

I don't know that I can support hammer(ed)'s claim that higher prices will attract more people, but I would suggest that people will be attracted by what they consider higher quality events even if the prices are higher. The risk of raising prices is, of course, that people do expect more quality. That may have been part of QOC's public relations problem that started this whole thread; prices went up significantly with no indication of how that would increase quality. Simple economic theory says that if two goods have equal (perceived) quality, the cheaper will be preferred.

Tris and road races need many more volunteers than O events, and seem to get them relatively easily. Partly from
non-running family members, and partly from the community... in return for charitable donations of various types. At some big tri events you have more volunteers than competitors.

I have to ask one question. WHY? Why do O'clubs need to charge more money? Are they losing money on every event they hold? Can they not afford to hire mappers? (I seem to remember that the USOF map loan fund is underutilized). Exactly what do we need this money for? Many clubs, especially large ones, have 10's of thousands of dollars in the bank.
I think those big road races and tris make money for people, ie it's their job. I put on a trail race every year, we charge $10 pre entry, $15 on the day. We have more food than they can eat (about 60 entrants), and then we donate about $300 to the Friends of the Blue Hills and the US Junior Team. We have prizes for various ages and about 4-5 volunteers from the Friends.(Juniors, would be welcome).
NEOC has just lowered the membership to $15 for the year if you get the electronic newsletter, let's see how our finances go from here.

To answer upnorthguy's original question: How can anyone justify charging premium prices for something people either a) don't know what is, or b) don't know that they want to do?

Upnorthguy didn't suggest "premium prices". He put forward the radical proposition that the entry fees should do a better job of covering costs.

In southern Ontario, there are half a dozen orienteering clubs within a 2-hr driving distance. A club membership typically includes free entry to all of that club's B events, along with some private club member-only training events. Membership fees range from $20 to $35 per year for an adult, and there are family discounts. It's such a good deal that some of us join multiple clubs. And it does *not* reduce volunteer participation. Along with the privilege of attending a B event for free comes the responsibility to help out if asked. At least, there are enough people who see it that way that the system works just fine. If we lived in an area where there was only one club, then the membership cost would need to be considerably higher, since we depend on members of other clubs and day members to fund each event.

WHY? Why do O'clubs need to charge more money? Are they losing money on every event they hold? Can they not afford to hire mappers? (I seem to remember that the USOF map loan fund is underutilized). Exactly what do we need this money for? Many clubs, especially large ones, have 10's of thousands of dollars in the bank.

Perhaps this explains why there are such diverging opinions. I agree that if a club is wildly rich, it can afford to subsidize anyone it chooses to. This thread is not for those clubs. But on the other side of the coin, there are also clubs with a 3-figure bank account after they cover their annual expenses. One of my clubs falls in that category. No, we can't afford mappers, we don't own a single map, and there is no map loan fund here. We took a big step forward last year by buying 20 flags and punches. I've sometimes covered hard expenses myself rather than charge the club, and there are other people who do the same. Although I do it, I get a little edgy when people suggest that I have some obligation to pay out of pocket to subsidize families who are willing to pay thousands of dollars a year for hockey or swim club.

Interesting that Ontario O'ers get free entry to their clubs meets. Most US clubs charge membership plus an entry fee. So a typical adult in NEOC would pay about $10 for membership and $5 per meet. So over 20 meets per year, the cost would be $110.
I don't think it's these local meet costs which causes distress, it's the A meet costs. For one run at a local meet for a family it would be about $15 total (club has a family max entry fee) and the incremental cost of the yearly membership ($15/#of meets attended.).
Compare that to cost of an A meet day, $25 x 4 family members ,$100, (plus incremental USOF cost).
Guess this explains why my daughters were always at O meets and not in town soccer or gymnastics.

SLOC would be considered reasonably well funded - we certainly are in no danger of missing a payment. However, if we were to address all the current deficiencies in our map collection, we'd be looking at a 6-figure bill. Our newest map is about to be completely invalidated by some significant construction taking place right in the middle of the map. We can, of course, get by on what we have and continue to map one area each year, but more funds would certainly mean more and better maps, which are the lifeblood of an orienteering club.

I do know of at least one club that literally has more money than they know what to do with. Their maps are current, there aren't too many other places to map, and they get 200 people showing up at each local meet. That's great for them, but I can't imagine that more than 2 or 3 other North American clubs share that problem.

I'm not sure I see the relevance of the map loan fund. It's a loan. You still have to raise the money at some point.

Aside from directing several A-meets, I've also been RD for a bunch of bike races, running races, and a tri. While those races do require more volunteer help on the day of the race, only the tri requires prep work comparable to putting on an O-meet. And, that's only if you don't count making the map. If you throw in mapping, it's no contest. Therefore, I would say that paying our RD's might go a real long way towards elevating the quality, exposure, and, ultimately, attendance of our meets. Rather tough to do that on $22/entry.

Map loans allow a club to produce a map, then use revenue which comes in later, either from a single big event, or several local events to repay the loan. No interest is charged. Most map loans, especially those to newer and smaller clubs are accompanied by a map grant, which writes off a portion of the loan when a completed map & report of use is submitted. Although large clubs sometimes use the fund for "A" meet mapping, its greatest benefit has been in helping new clubs get started with a first map or two.

One of my clubs runs an event that we hire someone to operate. We get a fixed dollar amount from every entry. We provide website and e-mail promotion, supply our map at no charge, and allow our insurance to cover it. Everything else is up to him. The event wouldn't take place otherwise, given everyone's busy schedule. Volunteers are still willing to help because we're grateful that the event is happening, but not many people have to do much. He claims that he makes enough to make it worth his time, plus he considers it to be excellent training. Win-win.

Just moving over here from the Exec Director thread, which detoured into the cost issue again. In response to Coach's post...

We were talking about the apparent difference between the Ontario way of financing O'clubs and the US way. As I understand it, you do not charge entry fees for club members. So you are financing the club solely through memberships.

Actually, clubs here treat memberships as "loss leaders". Membership costs are kept low to attract more members, which increases the potential pool of volunteers as well as increasing the number of competitors in Ontario events. Because there are 6 orienteering clubs in a small area patronizing each other's events, we all finance our clubs primarily through the entry fees paid by members of *other* clubs - or by non-members who do our events. Our members get free entry to our meets, but they constitute a minority of the attendees.

Do you have to pay a lot to get permits? Permits are zero to maybe $20 in this area....I guess if you have to rent a map you might pay 50cents per copy?

Permits are zero to $6/participant in our area - more for mountain bike O. Sounds like that's a big difference between our areas. Depending on the club whose map we use, licensing costs are zero to $2/participant. That's before we pay for map printing and cases.

If you're spending 50 cents/person on food, that's one of the bigger differences. For winter orienteering (Ontario's most active season), clubs usually provide hot drinks and often soup or chili with bread, along with the usual cookies. This also requires bowls, spoons, cups, etc.

Clubs are later billed a participation/insurance levy by our national organization. It's an unknown amount until the year is over, but $2-3/participant will probably cover it.

A stolen or damaged SI control would cost $150+, since the club uses borrowed gear. That's the kind of contingency we need to be prepared for, i.e. plan to make a little money on each event.

Another difference is the number of meets. With 6 clubs in this area, each club puts on a smaller number of events. My smaller club is planning only two public events this year, with a possibility of expanding to three - but the market couldn't sustain more than that. I suspect that clubs in the U.S. are putting on many more events.

One difference that I notice in the models is that Ontario clubs rely on "external" members attending each event. Here in the US, it's my experience that most non-A meets get minimal participation from people outside the host club and that those participants generally live near "club boundaries" - and are often members of both clubs even if they are largely affiliated with one or the other. Most US clubs worry about "competition" from at most one or two other clubs - and often not that.

Coach's comments in the other thread about the Blue Hills traverse strike me as suggesting that there is more in common between the two approaches than there is different. Of course his analysis above about annual costs shows a difference, although I am not sure how many clubs have typical members attending 20 meets a year.

Still, in the face of tough economic times, all clubs should be looking at this issue and thinking about how to increase participation... I know that my club (BFLO) is watching, listening, and I hope, learning from all this...

I can see 2 big differences. Paying $2 per participant is huge! I know USOF was charging per "start", but not sure how much that is these days. Is that per club member, or $2 each time that person runs a course?
Winter orienteering, that could cut down on participants.
The best attended meet in our club is usually a warm spring day. A meet close to a city with some advertising , then add nice weather, 100+ participants easy.

There's a crucial difference. The only annual events that hit 100 participants in southern Ontario are GHO's team adventure runs (150 to 300 participants per event) and the Ontario Champs.

The busiest season for orienteering here is from November till early April. This is because it's the off season for the "crossover" participants - runners, cyclists, triathletes and adventure racers who focus on their other sports from May to October. But aside from that, winter orienteering is an absolute blast. If you like playing in the mud (and what orienteer doesn't?), it's hard to resist playing in the snow. Winter has proven to be our best time to attract new participants - I guess that's counter-intuitive for those from a warmer climate!

Participant starts aren't a fixed cost - they're set retroactively based on the proportion of starts we have nation-wide, not the absolute number of starts. Looking at the 2007 bill (don't have 2008 yet), it was just under $2/participant start, i.e. each time a person runs a course. We've been told to expect an increase.

So... bottom line, just like TVs, sweaters and restaurant dinners, orienteering is a good deal in the U.S.! :-)

Anyone from COC (Eric?) around who can speak to whether their volunteer voucher program is still in effect? If I remember correctly, those who helped out got in a major meet crew position got a voucher for an entry fee at their next B meet... They came up with that just as we were leaving (2004ish - pre-kids, pre-grad school when we still had time to volunteer) and I remember thinking it was a really nice way to receive some recognition for the hours we put in. Of course, that was back when I had to be bribed to get out of bed to go orienteering...but it was a nice touch. You might not even have to do it all the time - maybe once a year let your major volunteers run for free - people always like to be recognized for all that they contribute.

Orienteering is, I will admit, considerably cheaper than my on-again, off-again triathlon habit, even when I only went to local races. The cost of equipment alone...I don't even want to think about it.

As a former club treasurer, I'd be very cautious about handing out cash prizes. Such "freebies" become very difficult to control. Before you know it, the people who orienteer the most aren't paying anymore.
Or the club officers have decided they should never pay.

"There be dragons here..."

For those of you that think that we should raise meet fees.. Consider this: I pay $20 to have each of my kids run at an A-meet. They do the course in 20 or 30 minutes. I cringe every time I sign them up and feel like I am getting taken advantage off.
Compare to my girls $200 Lacrosse fee which gets them 4 hours a week for 5 months of organized sports. They play in a heated dome in the winter, get a team shirt, some misc. gear and a party. This is great value and is an incentive to have them involved in the sport. We don't go to every a-meet in part because of the total price of going. I have no problems paying for the great deal we are getting in lacrosse. I feel bad paying twenty buck to have them run for 20 minutes.
A family plan for a-meets would certainly act as an incentive to get out there more often. I know I speak for others with families as well.

Please don't lose sight of ebuckley's remark that was used to start this thread: "However, there is another option: screw sponsorship; pay for it ourselves. If a meet can't be run on $22/day, charge more."

We have learned from this thread that fortuitous local conditions allow some clubs and some meets to operate at $5/participant, while others need considerably more to cover the costs of operating the meet and the club itself. Nobody has suggested that meet prices should be raised beyond that. (If they had suggested that money should be raised for marketing campaigns and club shirts and other things to make orienteering more appealing, it's possible that participation might go up - but that's not the discussion we've been having.)

It is unfair to talk about "those who think we should raise meet fees" as if there are evil motives involved. Many people whose names I recognize on both sides of this discussion have devoted countless volunteer hours to the sport, thus doing their part to keep costs as low as they are - to the benefit of people who volunteer considerably less or not at all. It is unreasonable for anyone to expect to be subsidized by other people out of pocket - or for that matter, to expect other people to devote extra volunteer hours to keep entry fees lower, (e.g. driving 2 hrs to deliver something in person instead of using a courier, typing in race entries manually because people don't like the $2 online registration transaction fee, etc.)

Going back to ebuckley's remark, there is a choice. Those who favour entry fees that do not cover costs can direct their volunteer efforts to applying for sports grants and seeking sponsorship. That's a positive response to the situation and a win-win for everyone.

P.S. This doesn't mean that $20 is the right price for juniors at Bernard's meets - that does seem high, and most meets have more attractive family or junior pricing. But without understanding local conditions, it's impossible for us to judge. Perhaps someone from that club can address their specific issues.

Bash, local club events usually do have more attractive family and/or junior pricing; I think Bernie was referring to some US A-meet pricing structures, where all juniors pay the same whether they run the White/Novice course at age 12 or under, or the much longer Red course at age 20. Then the cost of a single A-meet rises considerably for a family.

The only U.S. A meet I've done is the Flying Pig, and families should note that it's a heck of a deal - a $25 earlybird junior entry for three races, less than half the adult price. Relating this back to the current discussion topic of covering costs through entry fees... Although kids on shorter courses might eat less food (although some of them don't!), and their share of the wear and tear on SI gear is less due to fewer controls on their courses, their other costs (at least in our neighbourhood) are about the same as an adult. Most of us choose to set adult entry fees higher to subsidize the cost of the juniors, which is probably the right thing to do - but it's one more thing that adults need to remember if they're concerned about their own entry fees.

I find Ontario's practice of having most events in winter, and hardly any when the terrains at it's best in April/May and Sept-Nov bizzare.

Average attendance at the more frequent winter events is around 60 participants. Average attendance at the less frequent events in spring and fall is about 40 participants, except for the Ontario Champs and GHO's team adventure runs. I don't orienteer much in summer because I focus on other sports, and I think you're the same. This demonstrates an interesting down side of attracting so many crossover athletes to the sport in our area. Their off season has become orienteering's most popular season by default.

" Their off season has become orienteering's most popular season by default."

Here in Newcastle, Australia we take advantage of this fact and supplement our income by running a "Summer Street Series".

While our main/traditional focus is on bush orienteering we limit our visits to the Australian bush in the Summer months because it's just too hot.

The street series started out as a bit of a training exercise that has snowballed and now we get close to 100 competitors each Wednesday for 16 weeks.

It continues to grow, primarily by word of mouth, and is a raging sucess. We are aware that many of these newer people wil never tackle traditional bush orienteering for a number of reasons including commitment to other winter sports as mentioned in the above quote, (not the ones on that white cold stuff) and a lack of willingness to travel to a bush environment but thats fine by us.

Our street series takes the form of a 45 minute score course in suburban terrain with "unaturally occuring" control sites. These are clues like what object is on the front lawn at #26, a) trampoline b) birdbath c) statue.

The maps are basic with some colour and are not that time consuming to develop and are doine by members for free. Courses are a lot easier to set than bush ones and less technically challenging meaning more volunteers are capable of doing so. Each year we usually have to turn some people down that request to set a street event, while it's a challenge to get course setters for our bush series.

So overall the running costs and course setting tasks are considerably less than a bush event so in a way this series subsidises our bush events and allows us to keep prices as low as possible.

I'm sure many places around the world are running similar events, but it probably depends on your climate/population/cityscape as to how possible this might be in your particular area.

The biggest races in Ontario:
Raid the hammer in nov
Giants rib raid in april
Ontario champs in oct
Ottawa oc spring race in may

So the big races are in the best months to orienteer (although the snowshoe raid may be inthe 160 participant range this year)

Summer O in Ontario is not fun but winter is.

Back to the cost question.

Clubs should offer more training at low cost like fwoc's junior programme but then races should be higher cost. I do like the idea of low cost white and yellow though. Many road races offer free kids races while mom and dad pay $40 for a 5k run on a road

"Many road races offer free kids races while mom and dad pay $40 for a 5k run on a road"....hammer

I'll admit I'm not much of a runner but I cannot see the value of paying $40 to run on a road when I could do it for free. OK, I mightn't have the spirit of competition if I free run, but it's a hell of a lot cheaper.

$40 seems a lot.
What are the associated costs?
Road closures, policing or something?

Police details in Massachusetts are a minimum of 4 hours, whether it's for a 5K (that passes an intersection in 30 minutes) or a 30K. So police $$ are high. I don't know about the insurance costs, but liability insurance in general is outrageously expensive because of our (US) litigious society and failure to be responsible for our own actions.

I thought it might be policing costs but totally forgot about insurance. (how could I do that!!!)

Don't worry I think Australia has overtaken USA as the most litiguous society on the planet. I think we're also well on our way to becoming the most obese as well.

I've been away from this thread for a while, and I just saw cmpbllv's reference to Cascade OC's volunteer appreciation program, which was recently enhanced by kupackman.

For a few years, the club has given coupons good for free meet entry (at the member price) to volunteers who work a shift at an event. Meet Directors and Course Setters received three coupons as thanks for their even greater efforts.

We've moved to a point system, where points can be redeemed for various rewards: http://www.cascadeoc.org/Volunteer.html#rewards
(Or go to http://www.cascadeoc.org and click on "Volunteer." Please excuse our outdated, frame-based website. We hope to address that soon.)

A volunteer can still opt to receive a coupon on the spot, in lieu of points.

The board just voted to double the points for course setters at our Winter Series events, since they require 7 (rather than our usual 3-4) courses and around 300 participants. Course setters also receive Winter Series points for that event equal to their best score from among the other series events.

People volunteer for specific shifts by clicking on a volunteer link from the events page: http://www.cascadeoc.org/Events.html

This system means that some frequent volunteers seldom if ever pay to run, and this is as it should be, since those people make it possible to deliver the high quality events that are enjoyed and paid for by so many. This is also a selling point for people who would like to participate but for whom the entry fees would give pause: just volunteer a shift, then run for free. Having ways to orienteer for free or for reduced prices--e.g. free or cheap training events, as hammer suggested--frees the club to raise fees on some events in order to more effectively pursue the mission of growing the sport.

I think orienteering clubs stand to benefit greatly by learning from other organizations, mostly those outside orienteering but also from our peer O clubs. Many organizations have already figured out effective ways to address volunteer and pricing issues, and we can implement the lessons of their experience rather than reinventing the wheel.

Here's my two cents, really just one person's experience. I got into Orienteering *because* it's affordable. I don't pay for soccer clubs, hockey, ice skating, etc. I find those too expensive. But, $15 to bring the kids out to the woods for some exercise, time together, and a challenge is perfect.

I volunteered to take registrations the first time I was asked and let the director know I will do it again.

I like to think that people can be trusted with the truth. If/when a club needs to raise rates, showing the financials could be part of selling the idea without driving people away.