Discussion: Why are orienteers so strange?

I have been orienteering for about one year now. I got into the sport via adventure racing and I wanted to become a better navigator. I have to say I'm extremely hooked on the sport. I wish there was a meet every weekend that I could do. I was wondering one thing though? It seems like there are some "strange folk" that are involved in this sport. Reading some of these threads on this website has proved it. Why is this? Don't get me wrong, I have the utmost respect for orienteering athletes. They not only have to be strong physicaly, but mentaly as well. Maybe, that's the answer? Orienteering athletes are all brainiacs and they're too smart to be normal? Don't worry, I'm an engineer, so I guess I'm probably not "normal" either.

There definitely does seem to be a correlation between orienteers and math/science/applications. For example, the Oxford Orienteering Club has 3 maths students, a biochemist, several chemists, a physicist, two medics, and so on. As far as I know we only have 2-3 people that do something else, such as art or classics. And certainly the math/science people tend to be, overall, "stranger" than the English majors. Thus, there is a good chance that orienteers are strange simply because only people who are strange would be crazy enough to do orienteering. :)

I don't find orienteers that strange, really, compared to most other niche groups--fantasy gamers, for example. A lot of the strangeness on Attackpoint is a reflection of the fact that people are comfortable here, surrounded by their fellow athletes, and thus generate more sillyness than they might in other situations--the checkout line at the grocery store for example.

On the other hand, I think that people who feel free to do an unconventional sport are more likely than an average person to feel free to be unconventional in other ways.

I do some adventure racing in addition to my orienteering, and I've found adventure racers to be strange in a couple ways:
1. a surprisingly high proportion of adventure racers spend as much time training as elite athletes do.
2. a surprisingly high proportion of adventure racers seek experiences that would distress most people: prolonged exposure to the elements, exhaustion, and sleep deprivation.

yeah, I think you'll find that some of the wackiest here would seem relatively normal if you met them in real life.

the attackpoint sillyness definitely feeds on itself though, as eric mentioned, because of comfort, familiarity (some people have known each other offline for decades), and a few instigative comedians in particular (you guys know who you are :-) who can always get the ball rolling.

by contrast, the weirdest orienteers tend to be the experienced non-athletic [and non-humorous] ones, who do seem weird in real life, and who are mostly unrepresented here by design.

I always wondered why the REST of the people in the world were so strange!

Kenny is right. Some people here may seem strange but can and do present themselves as relatively normal in real life. There are people who orienteer, however, not represented here, who strike me at least as patently strange in every imanginable state of the world.

Re Kat's comments: I've known some strange liberal arts majors, too!

I don't get the question?

I don't find orienteers that strange, really, compared to most other niche groups--fantasy gamers, for example.

I've probably spent more of my life fantasy gaming than orienteering/training, so I guess that makes me strange squared. I don't really feel all that strange tho, even tho I have alot of geeky interests. For me, fantasy gaming was about writing, problem solving, visualization, and philosophical pursuits. I've carried some of those interests into orienteering.

Since I started orienteering/training, I've replaced my dice bag with a gear bag, as there isn't time to do both at the level I'd like to, but if anyone wants to do a dungeon crawl at the next A meet, drop me a note and I'll bring my stuff :-)

The orienteering population seems to be more intellectual than the average population, and I think that they're (we're) not really weird in that context. Take any group of graduate students at top university and they'll probably act pretty "weird" too. At least to an outsider. Actually, I don't even know if the brains make a difference. Any close-knit group will probably seem whacky to others, it's just that a lot of the wackiness here is nerdy. (No complaints from me.)

As for this thing about not making similar comments in line at the grocery store, that's a bit of hogwash. I've made many friends by doing such things.

You're just so gregarious, Christina!

It's just that damn charisma.

LOL - I've had the same thoughts and now that I've been assimilated I've lost that perspective. Personally, I may be hooped all around - I'm an adventure racer, grew up playing role playing games, an orienteer/rogainer, and an engineer. BUT, in my defense, I have a steady girlfriend, a dog that loves me, and a whitewater kayak (three of 'em).

I will say some of the strangeness (in my mind) stemmed from a number of things: a) the detail fixation, b) a European heritage, and c) the clothes. But I love you all - so please don't take any offense:-). As an "old dog" in the adventure racing world (Eco '97 and on), the orienteer club locally was pretty much all-of-the-above when I first moved back to town. However, now a lot of friends pulled in to the AR world are crossing over in to the orienteering one and adding some, dare I say, "youth" to the club.

I still won't wear those clothes though...

Regarding the clothes... see Hammer's commercial... GHO and DVOA are fashion forward. Some neighboring clubs may be jealous...

But no worries -- Eddie can buy a suit, too!

People are strange when you’re a stranger

I've already got a suit. But most of my pants are ripped to shreds. Can anyone recommend a good pair of pants?

Ha, ha! Here you go...

Nerdiness is a trademark of an orienteer :) Many on-line photos are definite proof of this statement.

And I am proud of it! Just clearly shows that your IQ is well above the average :)

(Humming) Just wonder why girls prefer business and art majors?

Well, I'm a History major and a Kindergarten teacher. Plus I don't say weird things in a grocery line and I orienteer in 3/4 length pants. I must be normal :)

I haven't found the folks who do orienteering competitively to be that much different from any other breed of athletes I've been associated with (Hockey, Cycling, XC Skiing, Speedskating, and Running being the major ones). The biggest difference is a refreshing lack of macho pretense. Perhaps a tad more academic, but I think we give ourselves a bit too much credit there - I've met plenty of bright folks in mainstream sports. I will certainly concede that there are some very strange birds that do this recreationally.

Based on my observations, it may well be that the weirdest orienteers are about as weird as anybody you'll find anywhere. They're a tiny minority (and few if any of them are on Attackpoint), but they're strange enough that they really get noticed. Doesn't take much Tabasco to make the milk taste funny.

Many years ago, my roommate, an art major, registered for his very first classes at a table manned by a guy dressed in yellow vinyl shoes, a blue vinyl jacket, and a mickey mouse watch. If you look close enough, you can find your strange ones.

Orienteering on this side of the pond does have it fair share though. Do they have orienteering nerds in Scandinavia or are they just not as noticeable with their cool club outfits?

There is no question that there's more strange folks in Orienteering than other sports. Of course, I can generalize about other sports too:
Nordic skiers: fine on their own, put two or more together and they are guaranteed to start discussing waxes. A single female friend of mine in Ottawa has forbid me from inviting skiers to parties because of this.
Cyclists: ah, the joys of talking to gear heads, I work at a ski/bike store and just love hearing about the merits of shifters.
Ultra runners: very much in the same league of strangeness as Orienteers.
Rock climbers: masters of conspiracy theories. Hearing them talk about routes must be how other people feel when hearing about O courses.
Triathletes: ah, triathletes.

I think JJ's right. There are strange people in any population, but the proportion within the recreational orienteering sample has to be significantly higher than the overall population. To me, they seem to stand out more within the orienteering community.

I don't know that many recreational triathletes, climbers, or ultrarunners, but I'd be amazed if you could find as many strange ones as I could in orienteering.

I'm going to agree with this. Though sometimes, in my interactions with these weird recreational orienteers, the word "weird" is not the one going through my head as I'm pulling out my hair in frustration.

The baltering and badgering and bantering on Attackpoint may appear out of line. Yet when reading other blogs and public discussion sites, it appears reasonable and we give each other quite interesting feedback and advice, from rearing babies to eating right to strength training and navigation.

Many people know each other for years, while not seeing each other in real life sof often. I feel Attackpoint is one of the few sites which fulfill the "promise" of the web: It creates some kind of community among people who live far away from each other.

Sometimes you have to sift through the rubble at AP. I must admit, I post sometimes whatever passes through my mind while running or training. And yes, I consider training and running a game, not the outmost serious thing.

As for brainish people, I am not a brain person. I work with my hands all day, speed typing. Well, some people call it writing, instead of typing. And my B.F.A. is in Film/TV.

And you might run into me at your next adventure race: I am a course setters for a bunch of ARs every year, feared by some (the 'lets take a bearing and pace count group) and enjoyed by others (the wow-great-the-control-is-placed-correctly-at-a-place-where-I-need-to-read-the-map group). I enjoy setting courses for AR: Those guys are so funny (not to say strange) with the survival equipment and a will to squish the last bit of energy out of themselves.

I orienteer in 3/4 length pants. I must be normal

A "normal" woman would call those capri's.

I am just going to keep quiet

That's a first.

I played competitive ultimate frisbee for around 18 years. I would say that, in general, orienteers are almost straight-laced compared to ulitmate players. Certainly they are much calmer. Threads in internet forums for ulitmate players tend to degenerate into arguments and name-calling fairly quickly.

The fact that the orienteering crowd seems to be about 15 years older on average probably has a lot to do with that.

Oh God, don't you see it? The ultimate proof that orienteers ARE weird is that they are all trying to deny the fact the orienteers are weird.
That's scary, very scary.

Going quiet in the middle of discussion is pure form of baltering :)

Orienteering - All welcome!

What about something like this: I admit to my weirdosity and admit that I am powerless over the denial of my compasslessness with spaghetti covered paper pieces and I admit that I have spent countless hours in the woods only to come out in the same spot where I entered them, being lost or fast, to download a chip on my finger (yet not on my shoulders) and disclose my alienation from the ideal route for seconds or even minutes.

Oh s––––, why is this discussion named "why are orienteers so strange?"

You are all weird,
Thank goodness.
Normal is SOooooooooo Dull.

I've always found English majors to be strange, also majors in ......

Sounds like the "Everyone has an accent but me!" argument but then I know my wife doesn't have an accent either;-} And she'll hate me for saying so.

baltering is not a philosophy - it's a diagnosis.

I'm glad to know I'm not the only one that thinks the uniforms are crazy. Man, I think I'd rather wear a bowling shirt out on the course. Someone would have to pay me serious bucks to wear one of those things.

I also play ultimate and I'll have to agree with SteveN, there are some crazy cats in that sport as well.

I really like the quote by Hammer though:
"People are strange when you’re a stranger"
Sums it up quite nicely, I think.

I really like the quote by Hammer though:
"People are strange when you’re a stranger"
Sums it up quite nicely, I think.

That's so beside the point--if we acknowledge that Hammer summed it up nicely, then what would we talk on and on about?

By the way, I orienteer in full length pants and wear 3/4 length pants in the grocery store checkout line. I only wear capris when I'm alone with my full-length mirror.

I believe Greg wears O clothes to work...

Hey Nevin:

It's a good thing you didn't call them bikers.

Another thing is that skiers tend to be a little like surfers except that they talk sex wax while we talk rex wax.

(If you know the book where that quote comes from, then you really have problems)

One reason we seem stranger than cyclists and surfers, but still keep an edge on fantasy gamers: When was the last time you picked up a chick with your sexy thumb compass?

Of course, a scientist never stops to realize this, cause they're instantly amazed by the damping time on that compass, and the intricate countour mapping, and the best techniques for route optimization, and.... Wait!! where did the cute girls in 0.75 length pants run off to???

Yesterday at a restaurant, the hostess said, "So how is your day?"
I said, "Great. I'm having a great day."
She said, "Too bad it's sooo rainy."
And I said, "You know---It's pretty awesome out there."

She probably thought I was a little strange.

I think we should blame our non-sexy image on the media.
I think I'll ask Bob Lux if we can use his picture in an upcoming ad campaign for NEOC.
The problem with O'ers is they are so damn practical. Those O suits (esp. pants) are really the best for running in the woods. Tights are too hot and tear easily. Wearing shorts only if the opposite sex finds bleeding legs attractive.
And for some of us, we frankly don't give a damn what we look like in the check out line.........

In Texas the weirdness factor comes from having more than half of our participants regularly compete in military camo and army boots. With camelbacks and/or canteens. And then they get lost on Yellow.

I have also noticed that our recreational segment features a high proportion of (often fat) cranky old guys.

P.S. I'm one of the non-math types on the list (recovering journalist). But I married a math professor, so that's weird enough.

Juha, is that quote from Pete Vordenberg's book?
I've been lectured several times about calling cyclists bikers. Therefore I only do it in the presence of guys who wear bib-pants in social settings.

Why do they wear camo?
No one knows. do they not want us to find them when they are lost (had ne last weekend at a meet for 8 hours on a course)

anyways
we are not weird we are speacial people.

With camelbacks and/or canteens. And then they get lost on Yellow.

I always get a kick out of the ROTC's that carry their metal canteens in the same hand as their compass.

Probably ok, I think canteens are usually aluminum.

Your diagnosis is baltering if you think that it is appropriate to wear tights for any occasion including your friend’s wedding.

...as long as our camouflaged particpants aren't commando crawling the course with bayonets clenched between their teeth, who cares what they wear? Nonetheless, would the latter action make them weird, ergo strange, ergo Orienteers? Hmmm.

Not that it matters to them, but had I shown up at an O meet before I joined the military and seen all those kids in camo uniforms, I might have backed up and left before registering. I probably would have thought I was in the wrong place, and perhaps likely to be shot. Seeing 200 kids in BDUs running around is not a normal sight for most people. Probably "scary" or "intimidating" more than weird.

Now I just shudder at how awful their uniforms look. ;-)

Actually, I've found a great alternative to O pants in some very lightweight New Balance running pants. They've held up well, with no more tears after a few years than I'd expect in O pants. With a club tech top from Axis Gear, they make a great looking set for orienteering. (With a nice sublimated image on the top, it'd look practically Olympic. But of course, most people don't look like Olympians, so I still don't think it'd help our looking normal.)

A math professor in Under Urmour top and tights - that is weird, Texas or New York, but not during orienteering.

I like it!!

Huh? What? Someone say something? ... derivative, pi^2, div grad... Ho there. Someone looking for me?... Oh, never mind.

Wierdness factor got amplified by the fact that most of orienteers are obsessed with the magic pi number.

But generally only on Pi day, of course (March 14, or 3/14 or 3.14 as the Americans write it)...

I guess Canadians are more obsessed with magic of pi. Sorry that we already missed that wonderful date 3/14/1592 :(

So, stick around for 3/14/15926.

exp(pi * i) = -1 still blows my mind.

It turns out that my daughter is a geek (too?): she pointed out to her friends in gym class when they were filling out their workout sheets yesterday, that 3/14 was pi.

which means cos(i) is about 1.54. That's always freaked me out ...

Is there any connections between pi and G?

the flying Pi g

And it flies in circles :)

From his puny girly-man frame, I get the impression that G doesn't eat much pi.

Apparently the fattening part of pie is that "e".

Hmm. So do people eat 5.859874482...? Or would it be 8.539734223...? (If you've followed this thread this far, consider getting away from your computer and getting some exercise. My excuse is that I'm waiting for a compiler.)

I used to post a thread called equation of the day on a running message board. I was ridiculed endlessly for being too much of a nerd and never discussing running topics. Somehow, I think my equation of the day thread might be welcome here :)

On a similar note, I've never celebrated "Pi Day", but I did celebrate "Mole Day" in high school chemistry class once.

One of the strangest orienteers that I've ever met asked me to revive this thread. One of the craziest high mileage runners that I've ever met.

The proposition was proven in the "you know you are an orienteer when..." thread. I refuse to link to it as it won't die either.

So i am relatively new to orienteering and i just ready this and your right, what gives with all the polyester jogging suits? Is it some kinda relic from the 70's??

You mean the nylon pajamas? Sadly, yes, it's a holdover from an earlier time, and it's not even a retro-fad. :-) Personally, I find rip-stop nylon too clingy and a bit uncomfortable, but it hangs on nonetheless. Some orienteers have tried to modernize orienteeringwear, with some successes. (I'm not sure I'm a conventional judge of style, but several of the newer club tech shirts look pretty nice to me.) One young Norwegian causes ripples by preferring his sharp tech Orienteering Calgary shirt to his current club's suit; at the other end of the spectrum, one chap insisted on running in pajamas (literally) in a college campus sprint in resistance to the fashion police.

Then there's J-J who wears only shorts and gaiters (and shoes) in Wyoming/Colorado (weather permitting, of course).

Supplex nylon holds up much longer than regular, but can be rather warm.

Gaiters? GAITERS? Never! (Well, almost never, only when I'm running someplace where there are a lot of grass seeds that want to get stuck in my socks.) Conditions permitting, In Wyoming I've been known to wear shorts and sandals. And SPF4.

Orienteering clothing choices, aside from fashion, are based on three considerations, as I see it:
1) Not overly restrictive (this includes being too hot, or getting too heavy when wet)
2) Provides adequate protection to allow you to run through whatever bushes you'll encounter without getting too scratched up
3) Adequately durable for the conditions

(And I'm a "chap"? England's getting to you already, Jim.)

JJ, socks and sandals at the same time though? That's the crucial question.

Wow, looks like AFrank successfully revived the O/strange post... though I have to say when I try to explain orienteering vs adventure racing most people thing AR is much stranger... preparing for days (not the training, just finding and modifying gear), dressed like a weirdo running around the wood for days (vs for minutes as an orienteer)...
You/we re all weird I guess....
JJ, speaking of gaiters.. these are great! May change your mind about not wearing them when you see all the polyester colors you can choose from! :)
http://www.dirtygirlgaiters.com/

In my early years of orienteering (dating back to late 1980s) I observed that most orienteers can understand concepts of computer programming and computer programmers who ever tried orienteering usually did not have problems understanding maps and navigating using maps even at their first attempt at orienteering. Ironically my college team consisted of 7 computer science majors and the “other guy”.

After years I realized why: Both – orienteering and computers (especially computer programming) – require ability to visualize and/or translate something what’s on paper into something more tangible. Abstract thinking is another quality that is common between orienteers and computer geeks.

Not every orienteer is involved in computer business however (with few exceptions) I still see that semi-decent orienteers are computer savvy as well.

Ya but what's that got to do with nylon running pants?

>Ya but what's that got to do with nylon running pants?

Everything!

it has got to be at least 70% of australian juniors have got into medicine in the last 3 years

it has got to be at least 70% of australian juniors have got into medicine in the last 3 years

Herbal medicine?

I think she means 'qualified for entry to a university course in medicine' by means of a high place in the ranking of students at the end of high school (unlike in North America, medicine is available as an undergrad degree in Australia).

They were already into the other kind of medicine before three years ago, I guess.

(Humming) Just wonder why girls prefer business and art majors?

well i'm hoping to go into manybe alternet energy reasurch or somthing to help global warming. I'm i weird for wanting to do that and being a girl?

and as far as running pants. sadly i'm not allowed to run in anything other that pants (mom's rule after second time having limes i think it is kinda mean though in the summer) but i have found a par of nike and a par of REI pants that are great never get ripped up and i don't get that cut up but i guess i haven't really run in them on anything higher than orange or brown.

>I think she means 'qualified for entry to a university course
> in medicine' by means of a high place in the ranking of
>students at the end of high school (unlike in North
>America, medicine is available as an undergrad degree in
> Australia).

Not for much longer.

> They were already into the other kind of medicine before
> three years ago, I guess.
Ask Shep about Orange.

Look at the "Carrying water during an event" thread to get to the root cause of the orienteering community strangeness :)

Statistically, if you are a member of the Australian national junior squad, you are approximately 200 times more likely than a member of the general population to get a Universities Admission Index score of 99.95 (the highest possible), or its pre-mid-1990s equivalent. Off the top of my head I can think of at least four APers included amongst this number.

Lies, damned lies, and statistics.

What differentiates orienteers is their ability to solve mental challenges whilst operating with minimal oxygen flow to the brain.
Now, let's switch this thread to something like "the dumbest thing I've ever done whilst under the influence of orienteering".

Or
"what I neglect in the rest of my life because of my obsession with orienteering"