Discussion: O-Shoe Glue

Until yesterday, I never had to deal with the woes of poor orienteering shoe construction that I know other orienteers have faced. I nearly had my hopes of running my first Highlander dashed when I noticed that the sole of one of my VJ Integrators (which I only bought at the Team Trials last May) was only still attached at my toe and heel. Fortunately, my shoe held up to the first aid station where a roll of duct tape was waiting for me (a HUGE thank you to Liz for that,) but now the sole only remains attached at the toe.

Needless to say I'm not very pleased at the rather short lifespan of these shoes (only 6 months) and I'd like try to repair them before having to replace them. If anyone has had any luck with reattaching the sole of their shoes and can recommend any particular method for doing so and a brand of glue that works best I'd greatly appreciate it!

Hi Corinne, I had the exact same problem with one of my Integrators (~1yr old) as well. The sole (the layer with the studs) started coming off during the long course at NAOC. It was dangling by the heel only and causing a lot of distraction. So I just ripped it off, tucked it into my o-pants, and finished the rest of the course.

Afterwards, I talked to Larry Berman at the tent about the problem. He recommended that I try using Gorilla Glue. Supposedly you can find it at most hardware stores. I haven't gone out to purchase a bottle, so can't say how expensive or effective this repair method may be.

Larry also mentioned that the newer Integrators (like the ones pictured here) are made with a different sole. The pair I own looks like this. It wasn't clear to me if the new sole's construction will be more durable than the old ones.

I wonder if there are some essential o-shoe maintenance procedures I haven't follow properly, or are the life expectancies of these Integrators just agonizingly short?

I always have the same problem. With me it is epidemic. The new shoes I at ORingen this year are already coming apart (sole separating from upper.) The same thing happened (within 6 months) to the shoes I got at Jukola. These were both Jalas.

However, the same thing happens to me with Integrators, although, in light of the Jalas fiasco, maybe not as badly.

Anyway, I have used Shoo Goo occasionally. In the past I thought it had worked OK, but my repairs to the shoes before the HR training weekend only enabled me to get through the weekend. After that, I gave up.

In the goo's defense, I may work best when the shoes are new and there is no dirt on them. While I worked really hard to clean them off before application, it was probably only half successful.

I wonder if there are some essential o-shoe maintenance procedures

Ductape starting Day 1.

I used Liquisole on my last pair of O shoes and it seemed to help a bit. I put it on all the stitching and where the sole and shoe joins. It was recommended to me to do this before you wear the shoes the first time to ensure that the shoes are clean. It seemed to protect the sole from pulling away from the shoe, only starting to see it pull away after about 2yrs and the soles are getting pretty trashed now anyway.

http://www.avantex.ebutik.se/default.asp?olspecial... have the glue under section 1:Skor then Tillbehor you can probably get it in the USA though.

Well, if LiquiSole is available in the US I'd like to know where. I've been using this stuff to hold O shoes together, and many other repairs, for many years. I've never found anything like it for strength and flexibility. But I don't think it is distributed in the US any longer. ShoeGoo and others are not as strong; epoxies are not as flexible. For best adhesion, make sure you (1) clean as well as possible with water & stiff brush, (2) allow to dry before applying liberally, (3) clamp together with many thick rubber bands, and (4) allow a week to cure.

Each year when I'm in the nordic countries, I buy a tube at a hardware or home improvement store. It is on my shopping list, along with big bags of Finn licorice and nordic rye bread...other wonderful things you can't find in the US. I also bought a tube last July when I visited the Orienterings Specialisten store in Stockholm ("Gummispackel?...Tak"), but it cost a bit more than at a hardware store.

I used gorilla glue on an old pair of intergrators I had. I wasn't able to ever run on them because they bothered my heel, but my dad has used them and they have held up alright so far. The gorilla glue is supposed to be the best at bonding dissimilar surfaces. Their website says that it will bonds metal, stone, wood, ceramincs, foam, glass and much more. I remember when I did it I used toothpicks... I can't remember what for but I think it was for support. I just ripped them off afterwards (although there are still pieces stuck to the shoe). However, I did try the same glue on a pair of Nikes I had. The soal was comming off at the toe so I glued it back on. It lasted about a week but then came off. I'm not sure if there was a problem with the way I put it on or what, but the glue on the o-shoes has held up just fine. It is a tad on the expensive side too, though. I guess it all depends on what you're willing to do to save your O-shoes.

Thanks, All. FYI my Integrators are the newest generation (the ones with green and silver details) so it seems they aren't holding up any better than their predecessor. Granted in the six months that I've had them I've done a lot of orienteering in them (almost once every week since I bought them, plus I was in Sweden for three weeks so almost every day then), but that still seems like a painfully short time for a pair of o-shoes to hold up, especially on a grad-student budget!

I'll make my best attempt at gluing the sole back on and hopefully with the help of the jj-method I can stretch a few more races out of them. Also, does anyone know if LiquiSole is sold in the UK? I'll be in Scotland next month and it sounds like a product worth looking into to try to save future pairs of shoes from the same fate as my Integrators.

I would be willing to do a lot to save my O shoes, because they seem to die prematurely. I am amazed that I can't get a whole years of use out of them on a regular basis, and I am not actually using them that often.

It has been rare recently that the upper dies before they separate, but for a while with my Integrators, that is what happened. And that was more tolerable to me than the (relatively) new sole coming off the (relatively) new uppers.

I've only tried ShoeGoo and have had pretty good luck with it. I agree that chitown's 4 steps regarding cleaning, clamping, and curing are the key. With rubber bands, I'll use some heavy books to apply pressure (plenty of old calculus texts lying around our house:) ). Desperate, I tried it on a rolling luggage handle - it has worked!

I've never tried gorilla glue on shoes before, but my dad used it to re-attach a side mirror onto my brother's car and it's worked quite well :).

Gorilla Glue works well. Chitown's list needs to be modified a bit: (1) Clean shoes. (2) Sole and upper that are to be bonded should be damp -- it activates the glue. (3) Clamp with a couple of C-clamps (or similar). (4) 48 hrs should be plenty. The upper will disintegrate before Gorilla Glue fails. And as mentioned, it's not expensive and available at any Hope Depot (or similar).

I've been losing studs out of the knobs recently, which is annoying.

Freesole is another good glue for repairing shoes. If you have a complete delamination, make sure you are careful to preserve the shape of the sole when you glue/clamp the sole back to the upper. You need to preserve the curve in the sole.

One technique I use to ensure binding--I stick a shoe tree inside the shoe and then wrap the shoe and goo concoction with copious amounts of (pick your favorite) tape. This way you ensure proper shaping and good adhesion. It was borne out of necessity as I sought C clamps but didn't have any.

The tape will get bound to the shoe, but it will abrade off eventually.

My soles always come off from the toe first. So whenever that happens, I try to glue the little tip of the sole back on right away, to prevent the sole from continuing to rip down the entire shoe.

I always follow the above mentioned steps with Gorilla Glue, but have found that, by itself, the glue does not hold indefinitely. In fact, nothing I have ever tried using to reattach the tip of the sole holds indefinitely. So my current procedure is to (1) Start with Gorilla Glue, (2) After the Gorilla Glue has dried, put a thin layer of Shoe Goo over the top of it, (3) Before orienteering, put several layers of duct tape around the tip of the shoe, unless there is still enough tape there from the previous run.

Even after doing all this, if I hit the toe of my shoe wrong on a rock or something during a run, all these steps become undone and I finish the run with a piece of sole dangling from the toe again. In that case, I repeat all three steps before the next run. So far I have managed to avoid complete delamination by following this procedure.

I'm with JJ - duct tape from day 1. Glue never seems to do much good. I just duct tape around the whole shoe - my studs poke through the tape and work just fine. The tape usually lasts for a race or two and then I just put a new batch on.

I have been working on this for years. The ONLY shoes that I wore out the soles on before tops were the hand made K Swiss team shoes from 1994.
The only glue which worked for me is a 2 part glue developed to fasten wooden boats together. It's flexible and waterproof. Recorsinol glue
http://www.rockler.com/product.cfm?page=17439&utm_...

It's tough to work with though as it's a powder you mix with a liquid.
I wish we knew what the shoe companies use, but then again it doesn't last long either.

After reading all of these entries, about gluing our O shoes back together and/or using duct tape from day one, I wonder why we put up with such poorly made products such as these expensive shoes to begin with. I feel that maybe it is time for someone to come up with better made O shoes. They are the most expensive item that we all need to orienteer next to our compass. I have extremely wide feet and was having trouble getting properly fitting O shoes in the states, so I got a pair in the O store in Stockholm this summer. They cost me $175.00 and as much as I didn't want to spend that much money, orienteering in shoes that are hurting my feet was not an option. I surely hope that I get more than 6 months out of them. Buying new O shoes every six months surely makes our relatively inexpensive sport much more expensive that is for sure.

I have often been temtped to try something different than O shoes, with the expectation they have to be made better and would last longer. But, when push comes to shove, for me, O shoes are the ideal shoes for me to race in. I like the weight, the studs, the last (shape). Luckily, I don't have foot problems, or I might not be able to wear them. But, I can, they just don't last.

I've often though of trying to stitch the sole to the upper. You might expect that would last long either, but I think there would be ways around it.

For instance, VJs have the black rubber on top of thin foam, which attaches to the upper. For me, the boundary between the upper and the foam is where it peels. That is the week link. So, which not stich, or rivet, or something, that layer to the upper. The black rubber would then protect the stitches, etc...

I've had good luck gluing soles on with Barge, a contact cement in a tube. I bought it at REI. You clean both sides, brush on the Barge, let it dry 15 to 30 minutes---until it's tacky---and then align the two sides and press them together. You get one chance. I've also used a contact cement I got from Wal-Mart in a small brown glass bottle. It's a name brand glue, but I can't remember the brand.

I have never had luck gluing with Shoe Goo.

I've used Gorilla Glue for a lot of things, but not shoes. A friend who I trust says it's great for O-Shoes. I've always put the glue on one side (no water) and wiped the other side with a damp paper towel. It's important to use a thin coating. The glue foams out enough to push apart the joint, so be prepared for that. I think Gorilla Glue is polyurethane glue. There are some generic knock-offs available. I've use a brand from Wal-Mart, but I've bought Gorilla Glue brand lately because the cap seems more secure. The three or four bottles I've bought have all gone bad in 1 to 3 years. Keep the cap good and snug. I read a week ago that turning the bottle upside down helps preserve it by preventing new humidity from entering the bottle. I'm skeptical.

Storing any of these glues in the freezer vastly extends their "pot life." Just allow a couple of hours to thaw before trying to use.

orienteeringmom makes a good point about the life of a typical pair of o shoes.
i get around it by waiting for late fall & snapping up sale-priced pairs of adidas or nike baseball & soccer shoes (rubber cleats). i usually find them for $20 or less in the clearance bins. they have lasted surprisingly well for me, & when they blow up, i dump them.

What about good old 'Superglue'? I've used this to repair other shoes before, but never o'shoes. It seems to work well for me...

I have learned that it is not worth running your shoes into the ground. The shoes cost $100-$150 but your knees are worth much much more. I hurt my knees in 2006 running in beat up orienteering shoes with no support and I ended up tearing my meniscus. I will never be able to run without a knee brace again.

Treat your feet and your legs well - buy new shoes when yours fall apart.

There is no doubt about it that orienteering shoes are the best shoe to race in in the forest for any race under 2 hours anyway but we shouldn't accept the poor quality that exists. Is North America sent the poor quality shoes or is this common throughout Europe too.

Hey, does anybody know the status of a possible Salomon orienteering shoe? I heard that Salomon was at this year's O-Ringen looking for people to test a possible shoe. A search of the Swedish Federation's web site says that SOFT entered an agreement with Salomon but there doesn't seem to be any mention of when we can expect a Salomon orienteering shoe (if ever) on the market.

Well said, Hammer.

I have used various generations of integrators for many years, yellow ones, white ones, black ones. I used to have trouble with them coming apart, but less so in the last several years. I thought they might be making them better, but now I'm thinking that my modest pace is less hard on them than when I used to run faster and with more abandon.

The shoes cost $100-$150 but your knees are worth much much more.

That's my final verdict against the Innovates (330s and 340s in particular). I used to be enthusiastic about them. Fortunately my knees have been fine so far, but the overpronation caused by easily worn-out rear midsole of the Inov8's contributed to a stress fracture, which in turn contributed to mild loss of motivation, and even that is not worth saving the $50 or so.

You young 'uns are too mollycoddled. A bit of perspective:

Talk about overpronating...back in the early days of the running boom, in the early '60's, there was no such thing as a "running shoe," or I imagine, any O shoes either. The only athletic shoes we could get were Converse sneakers, or Adidas full-leather tennis shoes, with the big, flat soles. And when they were worn through, the uppers were still good. So you'd mail the shoes in, and they'd glue a new rubber sole onto the old carcass for $25. I think I had a pair that had seen 3-4 retreads. Now after 40+ years of pounding the pavement with my 200lbs, my knees are the least of my worries; I still try to run every day.

How about the Tarahumara runners of northern Mexico who make their huaraches running sandals out of old tires? Do you think they worry about overpronating?

If you're experiencing problems from running, you might consider analyzing your running technique...as Barbie suggested in a previous thread on this same subject.

While I agree with Hammer that it's not good to run your shoes into the ground, I do draw the distinction that repairing a massive delamination of the sole-to-upper isn't the same as running your shoes into the ground. It's not like the manufacturers are doing us a favor by designing in an unmistakeable indication that the shoes are worn out; This is a design/manufacturing/quality problem, not an indication the cushioning and support are inadequate.

I agree with cedarcreek. Were it that my o-shoe had fallen apart due to typical wear and tear over an acceptable amount of time (in my opinion at least a year), I would have just replaced them (albeit begrudginly) and never started this discussion. But, I don't think that it is right that a pair of orienteering shoes are rendered completely un-useable in a matter of only six months. As a basis for comparison, I ran my entire 4 year collegiate cross country career in one pair of racing flats - in fact they would still serve me well if I were still running cross country races. Granted the conditions in which we run orienteering races are much tougher on o-shoes, but I still believe that it would be the upper of a cross country flat (simply because they are cloth as opposed to leather) that would wear out before the sole/insole if they were subjected to those same conditions. Why does it seem to be so difficult for o-shoe companies to produce a shoe that performs well and holds-up when high quality shoes that are relatively similar in nature (racing flats/spikes and cleats) exist.

I have also had o-shoes in the past that have held up for an impressively long time as well. Prior to purchasing the Integrators, I had always run in Silva Pro-Lites. Unfortunately, I don't believe they are made anymore. My first pair I purchased on my first trip to the Oringen when I was just 14 and I only had to replace them 3 years later because my feet had grown some. My second pair lasted me over 6 years until the leather of the uppers just literally started to disintegrate with age and I replaced them with the Integrators. When only 2 pairs of o-shoes last nearly 10 years and then one pair falls apart in only 6 months there is clearly a problem, and its not the user.

I completely agree.

I also feel that my o-shoes used to last longer. Or, they would decay in a plausible fashion. The soles would get worn, the uppers would get worn, they would just wear out. It is ridiculous that we are left with shoes in pieces after 6 months, when then pieces are almost as good as new.

Hammer:

Our knees are likely different, but let me provide a hopeful note.

In the late 80's (age: late 30's) I had two knee injuries, fortunately just after arthoscopic surgery was developed. I blew out my left knee playing badminton - they went in and removed a mangled ligament. A year or so later, wearing a brace, I played basketball and blew out my right knee. (As I hit the floor, I swore, "D..m, my good knee!".) They went in and removed a cartilage (sorry, in both cases, I've forgotten which one).

For several years, I wore braces on both knees for all sports including running. Even so, tennis, racquetball, soccer, and badminton were tough on the knees - causing tightness (the side motions). Exercise machines didn't seem to help much. My knees felt weak - when straight, my left knee might pop a bit.

In 1992, I discovered orienteering. That style of running caused the braces to chafe too much, so I tried taking off the brace from my stronger right knee. It worked! A while later, I took off the other brace. Feeling like Forrest Gump, they improved. My guess is that orienteering requires my knees to be bent more than 5K running and it is not on pavement. Maybe the irregular footing helped force better muscle development. When I hop down a log or rock face, I'm just sure to land with bent knee, usually on both feet. In general, my knees are stronger and are much less likely to 'pop out' than during the first 5 years after surgery. (Wow, I just realized that even my weaker left knee hasn't popped out for along time!) Racquetball or tennis (both rarely played) with or without braces still tightens up both knees. Cycling, exercise machines, & swimming are fine.

You have reason to hope :).

I have experienced the sole seperation and heard complaints from others. I think it just comes down to poor quality control by the VJ people. I tried to buy a pair at NAOC and even in the package you could see where the sole wasn't glued properly. It made me wonder if VJ was exporting their "seconds" to the US thinking they were far enough from Finland that they could be passed off as top quality. Has anyone out there bought shoes in Finland or Sweden and experienced the same sole seperation????
Basically I really like the intergrator of falcon but why they can't glue the sole on properly at the factory is a mystery. We have bought 4 new pairs of VJ's this year and everyone has some sole seperation to some degree.
By the way, this is Carl and not Ethan and when I do fix the shoes, I use gorilla glue and it's been working though you need to make sure the surfaces are CLEAN.

I've had even worse problems with Jalas. Those I definitely bought in Europe... first pair in 2007 and second in 2008. Neither lasted six months before there was noticeable separation.

What was that red and white tape they used to hold that car together in yesterday's Bathurst 1000. I want some of that!

Nice topic. This weekend my right Inov8 Mudclaw lost its sole about midway through the course. I was lucky that I had a couple of extra appropriate lengths of duct tape to shore up the shoe. Maybe the shoe makers should supply a roll of duct tape with each shoe.

I understand why you might get paranoid but, relax, all of our shoes are falling apart. This is a favourite small-talk topic in the showers after races here in Finland (ok, after the local mappers and course setters have been thoroughly disparaged). Just glue your shoes and enjoy the bonding.

I can't speak for the O-shoe companies, but my cousin is a sales rep for Nike and tells me that running shoe companies are under enormous pressure to get the weight as low as possible. This has led to all sorts of silly things like skimping on glue to using laces that break and a steady re-adjusting of what a "size 8" shoe is (about a full size smaller than it was 15 years ago). This is entirely consumer-driven as people are just ordering the lightest shoes out of catalogs. When people start basing purchase decisions on how well a sole holds together, shoe companies will respond in kind.

That said, I personally don't mind replacing O-shoes annually (I would be disappointed with only 6 months, but I've never had one come apart that quick). Like Hammer, I wouldn't want to risk injury by running in a shoe that was played out. Midsoles harden up after 6-9 months even if you don't wear the shoe at all. That's not a huge problem with an O-shoe since we're running on soft surface, but when it gets too stiff, it will affect your footplant and injury is invited.