We recently had the thread on "best coaching tip" but how does one go about offering such advice?
What do you do about people that always take a long time on their courses and never seem to improve, yet seem happy to continue to do so? They never seek advice (well not from me anyway) and obviously just keep on making the same mistakes over and over again.
It's not merely their speed either as any able bodied person could have walked around the course multiple times in the period that they have been out. One wonders if they have other activities (like fishing) they carry out whilst on course as it simply seems impossible to be so long.
Anyway, I've often thought about offering advice, but to do so without a request for it would seem insulting. How does one broach this topic without offending them or do we simply let them be as they must enjoy themselves because they keep coming back regardless?
I'm sure every club has these people - what do you do?
BTW - I'm not trying to knock these people - actually I admire their tenacity.
It is difficult, but try engaging them in conversation - open with 'how did you go?', or 'I had a really bad run today - how about you?' Then it might lead to being able to give them a few simple technical tips. Have written tips available at events. Here in WA, we offer a 'Guided Moderate Course' 3 or 4 times a season. There is also information for newcomers on most State Associations/OA website, and OA also has an excellent series designed by David Colls - unfortunately its hidden away in the Development & Resources page:
http://orienteering.asn.au/promotion/devel/develco...
Despite all this, as you say every club/state has one of these people. We have a guy who turns up to almost every event, has never joined up, usually does a hard course, never gets all the controls, and always finishes an hour after everyone else. We have offered assistance, but it is politely declined. We've reached the conclusion that he just enjoys getting lost in the bush.
try engaging them in conversation - open with 'how did you go?'
I agree. "Tell me your story" is a good approach, people in general like to talk about how their run went. If you look over the map together, and they describe the places where things went wrong, you may be able to offer suggestions on other, safer ways to approach the leg that would give a better chance for success. Don't approach it as an offer of help, but rather as interest in how they did.
Course reviews would seem to be good opportunities to offer advice; runners step up to enlarged maps showing their course, and they describe each leg and how they navigated through it.
But it seems to me that the best runners are able to verbalize very little advice. "....I went here....then I went there....and there...and got it." Are their navigational decisions made only in their subconscious? Have they advanced to the point that they aren't even aware of their constant decision-making as they run? Are they on as different a level from me mentally as they are physically?
I find I get the best advice from other modestly-talented orienteers, who are confronting the same problems, and commit the same mistakes as I make.
Some folks enjoy following the beeline between controls, too, despite there being faster routes (I know a few like this). Whether they succeed in doing it accurately, however, is another story.
"What do you do about people..."
I don't understand what's behind this question: why do you care what time "those people" do? Maybe their aim is to maximise their time
AOWN, in which case they're living the IOF dream...
Or is this part of an orienteering version of No Child Left Behind, where we need to aim to move the slowest runners out of the bottom 10th percentile?
i'm sure the whole idea is to improve their enjoyment of the sport and not leave them to the wolves.
unpronunciation
Part of the purpose of speeding up these people is to get them out of the forest in a timely fashion. Whilst we do have course closures and for the most part these are observed , it would be good to get away from an event with a little more of the day left for other things.
Obviously you never have to hang back afterwards to pack up or head back out into the forest for control collection. Must be great to have another life!
Mouse136 has also suggested the other reason.
Sorry you feel it's so bad that I asked how to help people.
oho, leepback, beware of the "I bet you never" when you don't know the person. fwiw, I hung around for an extra hour or so only two weeks ago at the US relays so I could collect the controls on the rec course, which I'd also set out starting from 6 that morning. Proving nothing (or in this case proving only that I'm married to someone in ROC).
People who take a really long time on courses and cause others to hang around just for them is pretty rude - I'm not defending that at all. If someone knows they take a long time, it's polite to start early. Of course. If that's what's behind your question, it might do to frame it more specifically. If you're trying to solve the problem of having to hang around for one or two people, then approach them directly.
My original post was a bit more aggressive than I meant, for which I apologise. However, as someone who is consistent in orienteering only in falling at the bottom end of the distribution, I couldn't help thinking that my enjoyment of orienteering wouldn't be increased by knowing that there was someone taking note of my time to see whether I qualified for unsolicited advice on how to improve. I know why I'm slow: I don't orienteer enough to build up quick map-reading skills, and I don't run very fast (which might just have something to do with not training very much).
Those might be the reasons. Or there might be other reasons that you're not even aware of. Discussing routes can be beneficial to orienteers of all levels.
you're singing my song. I'm usually the slowest on the course. i know i'm not going to get anywhere near all the controls (usually about half). I'm having a great time! I come in when the course closes. I try to be a few minutes early so no-one has to wait for me. If the course is only for an hour or so, I probably won't bother cause for me to drive somewhere only to have an hour run/walk/O in the bush isn't worth it.
i'm sorry if my taking all the time allowed means someone has to stay behind and collect the controls when they could have gone. I really can't do much about that. I do feel that the people who set the time limit are willing to stay at least that amount of time. I have never had the feeling that the volunteers or organizers wished I wasn't there. They have been, without exception, cheerful and encouraging as I straggled in.
so where does this topic go? sure, it would be nice to be better at O. it would be nice to run faster. it would be nice to run and read the map at the same time. but as unpro said "that ain't me".
unpro, frankj: We almost always have a couple people at local meets who do the same - it's not about speed for them, it's about spending time rambling through the woods. I don't think it's onerous to accommodate their preferences at all.
Our club is quite vocal about our cutoff time: after (e.g.) 3:30, we start removing controls. Period. We prefer that everyone is back by then, but if people are still out, we make it clear that the course is going away and they should come back to the finish right away. Because of that well-defined expectation, none of our usual volunteers feel like they're being put upon to "stay late". We pick up at 3:30-4:30, verify that all starts are accounted for, and go home. It all goes according to plan, which is precisely the idea.
That said, if your intention is to go a little faster each time out, JJ's advice is spot-on - talk to others, see the options. Use your watch, or RouteGadget. I know I've improved a lot from both competing against people who were better than me, and listening to what they had to say afterwards.
I have 3 juniors who would like to receive advice after running courses. Since they are new to the sport, they are a little shy about seeking advice. It would be nice if there were a structured way for them to receive advice. It would be great if there were a time and place for them to go after running where an expert could go over their run with them.
DVOA is fortunate to offer a training weekend for those interested in improving. I've taken advantage of it myself a few times. It's a great way to meet people and pick up some training tips. Once my husband and I hosted a beginner's meet at a small park- a family of four was gone for over 3 hours on a yellow course. I set out to check on them and found them enjoying a nice lunch at a sunny picnic bench at their penultimate control. They smiled and waved and said they were having a great time!
It makes the meet directors job easier if everyone is off the course at closing time. That condition met, I don't care how long people are out for. Bottom line question I ask most participants as they come off the course: Did you enjoy it? If the answer is yes then all is good.
My experience isn't all that broad, but I haven't run into anyone yet who doesn't like to talk about their routes. I guess there are probably one or two out there....
This discussion thread is closed.