Discussion: Aussie NOL mixed relay

I hope you all enjoyed the mixed relay as much as I did. It would be great to get some feedback so we can work on improving it for next year. Obviously setting the courses so that each team runs the same distance the first thing to correct.
Shorter, just write, longer?
city or bush?
2person, 4 person?

I really enjoyed the mixed relay. It was fun to do something different. I quite liked getting to go out twice as well as it was such a short loop. It was like getting a second go at an area, if you stuffed up the first time!

It was so fast and action packed through the school which was great fun. There were people going everywhere, and it was chaotic at the finish trying to work out where people were coming from, and going out again knowing how close things were. It really was a fantastic change from a normal relay.

I loved it too. I think it's great in an urban area - but bush would work too. 2 person is fun - and more competitive? Distance was great I thought, if it was longer, it might be more spread out, and be less exciting? The atmosphere was just tops.

Yeah i think as is, as long as the area suits. To open area and too much vision when running may take away from the chaotic atmosphere out on the course.

Great fun and a memorable event for the close racing.
Ideally I'd like to see a 4 person mixed relay either in the forest with middle distance courses or an urban sprint sytle. 4 people x 2 x middle distance runs each could work provided that it was the only event on the day.

Was indeed great fun. A good innovative idea, that provided great spectating and racing. It would be better not to repeat the common loop of final controls for our second legs to cut down on some dead running.

Would be a great way to showcase elites to wider O- community. Perhaps it could be made as an event in an Australian Champs carnival where the other classes get to run two of the same loops in succession shortly afterwards. Probably as a mass start/ series of mass starts like at Easter Slologue so they enjoy some of the madness and so people are back in time for the presentation.

yeh it was spot on i reckon. obviously with "fair" splitting, but i think the length was just right. urban or forest - i like sprint races in both - why confine it to just one.

How about a "straggler" relay- multi-person relay (3 or 4 people) with two or more SI cards as the batons. Each SI card has to complete the courses/loops in the designated order. Can have both cards out on the course simultaneously but not both carried by the same person. Can change runners when you want by returning to base. No need to change at the completion of a loop. I organised and set one of these events a few years ago using punch cards. It was most intriguing to watch the teams manipulating their running sequence as the race progressed.

I think a mixed relay is a flawed concept. States with an imbalance in number of male and female runners will have a number of people who can't run. This was a significant enough problem in a central location - Canberra, but will be worse if the event is to be run in other more out of the way states. I'm strongly opposed to having one as part of the O League calendar. 4 person teams rather than 2 will only make the problem worse.

qld had that problem with the canberra race with 6 girls and 3 guys, which is why I ended up running the mens course (which was fine cos it was short, but it made it hard to be competitive). But I really liked the race, and I think we should have more stuff like that (especially on the extra nol weekends), cos they're really fun. By having races like this on some of the extra nol weekends it might help encourage more people to turn up to those races (and then help avoid any problems with not enough people to make up teams).

you've got a point liggo, but i'm not sure if that should be a reason not to have mixed relays. in fact, the i almost see it as a reason to have them - the mixed relay could have been used as encouragement to get eg lorenzo to come and race the canberra nol round for qld.

oxoman the last thing orienteering needs is something more complicated than it already is...

Was the excitement from this event from the 'mixed' attribute' or the race structure?

i wasnt at the race, I didnt go for reasons outside of what is being discussed here, but I am well aware that I would probably not have enjoyed the format.

as a now 4th string male runner for the Arrows I would not have had a female to run with. As it was, an Arrow already didnt have a runner, and at least one other regular Arrow competitor wasnt there either. This is an issue that Arrows would not be able to solve just by extra encouragement.

So in many ways I agree with Liggo. I don't think I would have enjoyed it at all, despite the relative advantages the format excitment may offer.

Geez, get with it Shep - that's exactly what the sport needs.

Oxoman - dont worry about Shep - he's just a tired old stick-in-the-mud. You should contact Petter Thoresen and the Norwegian Orienteering Federation - I am sure they would be very interested in your ideas. You could make big bucks selling the broadcast rights to Norwegian TV.

Well you could always invite an older competitive female into the team just for the fun of it....as the stingers did! I think the idea was to have fun and winning was a bonus!

hahaha when are you moving home robplow? i miss you ;)

we would need to recruit 3 older competitive females at least.

if the idea is to have fun with little competitive aspect, its not really suited to a National League race then is it?

sorry fat rat im confused why havent you linked this thread to be bad for DEVELOPMENT and PROMOTION?

just havent worked out the angle yet. but robplow clearly has the right idea ;)

Ohhhhhhhhhhh Shep I miss you too. But I couldn't possible come and live in a country where footbridges are mapped as impassable walls. Anyway why would I want to leave Japan when I can enjoy terrain like this every weekend?

hahaha. robplow i heard a rumour that you like to make orienteering maps, if you were in aus you could map bridges however you like!

just in reply to you guys saying how you didnt have a partner to run with, since each state only counts their best 2 teams, you only need 2 males and 2 females to score points. since in individual competitions you need 3 i am guessing all states can field 2 teams. fair enough that it wouldnt be so interesting to be in an unofficial team but you still get a run, just like if you race an individual competition but dont score points for your team. not the same i know but in terms of the NOL i think its a valid point. ie what does it matter if we have people running who dont/cant score points?

i get the feeling that this mixed NOL relay wasnt popular, but is it just a vocal minority against it?

I get the feeling that Fatrat and Liggo didn't like it because they were too slow to get in a decent team (hypothetically for Fatrat) but everybody else seemed to think it was great....

It sounds fun (and therefore attractive). However future relays should be set with fair splits/gaffles. I don't want to participate in a sport where one team runs a shorter/easier course than another.

Tassie could put together just 1 team, and that was only through the help of Emma Warren who is not a regular National League runner. We had several blokes who missed out on a run. Qld had similar problems, WA had nobody there and class athletes like Fat Rat miss out on a run for SA.
I'm not saying the event shouldn't be run - sounds like it was a bunch of fun - just that I don't think it has a place in the National League calendar.

I agree completely with Eoin gaffles obviously need to be fair.

I'm not sure that it is a good argument that a particular format whould be banned because Tassie doesn't have any female athletes participating in the NOL, by that criteria it sounds like we need to change the National League so that only one runner counts for each state in each race so we can increase the chances of each state fielding a full team at every event.

liggo, most of what you wrote seems either irrelevant or actually an argument for a mixed relay...

WA having no one at the mixed relay - so they all went home after the sprint in the morning?

"class" athletes missing out - "class" athlete Hoggster didnt score points for the ACT in the Galaxy Sprint, should we change the rules? neither did Kirsten Fairfax, oh my god.

Tasmania roped in Emma Warren for a run, thats great! If only that happened more often!

The NOL (ie not the National Series which is the individual competetion) is a team competition. i dont reckon an NOL race has ever had such a strong team feeling as we had in the mixed relay...

We have been searching for a good format for the annual teams event in the Bendigo calendar. This seems like it is worth a try.

And hey... Liggo. If its fun but you lack a female, you could always enter an unofficial team of two blokes. Being unofficial you would no longer have to wear that hideous Forester outfit. Instead you could with your team mate about who wears the dress. I reckon you'd look spiffing in crinoline. If you had been a little better organised you could have offered to run the event cross dressed in return for a fitting Oxfam donation from each State. Or debate with Bruce about when Ilks becomes a Forester.

Nobody from WA was at the NOL series 7-9. We only had 1 M and 1 W at Easter. Terry (AP user "HeyU") said after "I'll keep on training and wait and see :-) If I continue to improve I might keep going. If I don't, then Easter would probably be my last elite race".

WA has been hit by Adventure Racing and babies in a double pronged attack. However the relay format was a definite factor in the non-attendance of at least a couple. In hindsight that seems a bit mistaken.

As always WA seems to struggle to keep hold of their talented juniors, with the likes of Erin, Kellie, Rhys in the JWOC team in recent years you would think they should have the backbone of a strong NOL team. However history has shown that talented juniors seem to either disappear from the sport (eg Shane, Karl, Matt S) or move elsewhere and start racing for somebody else.

What can WA do to hold onto their twenty somethings? Do they need more support from OAWA from OA? Would it make a difference?

We should be all right by 2028. OA actually support us quite well and I'm sure we are not the only ones facing the loss of talented youngsters to other interests. The NOL has been one of the things keeping WA going; we won the Junior NOL a couple of years back if you remember. OA needs to keep the format attractive, with well set, technically demanding, fair, elite level courses. That will keep people coming back.

Why the small 21 Sledge field at easter this year? Keeps the twenty somethings interested enough while they down some beers for a few years, then maybe they'll pick up the training and become NOL stars (or mixed relay ring-ins) a bit later. Unless they get up the duff, of course ;-)

Look, you idiots (yes Shep I'm speaking to you) the bottom line is that with a relay small states and states with an imbalance are going to have a number of people who can't compete officially. Even for crap runners like me I know that I can enter any other NOL event and be official and have a chance of scoring a point or two. Of course its nice if there's a full team of 3+ people to count but if there's not the at least I get to race and score some points and hopefully improve my ranking. At least I get to race officially. This was not the case for the mixed relay.

I'm not against having the Oz relays as a NOL because everyone is there. But this isn't the case for the other NOL events

I agree with Liggo, I think your an idiot Shep.

oh, and yer, it would probably mean I am much less likely to go to a whole NOL weekend, and miss other events as well. And isnt it bloody obvious this affects all but a few people. It DOES effect, South Aussies, WA's, Tasmanians and plenty of others. Starting with an unofficial tag is just demoralising, uninspiring and a bit of a slap in the face. Don't pretend people just run NOL for the intrinsic fun. Perhaps I will start attending other events where I could feel competitive like State Leagues.

The general idea is not bad at all, I just question the worth of this variation in the NOL, like Liggo.

We might as well scrap the entire women's competition as its unfair to WA, Tas etc that cant field a full team!

I run NOLs for the intrinsic fun. If I was unofficial I would still run as hard as I would if I was official

And I run sprint NOLs for the same reason - certainly not because I expect to get good points in them :-). I was expecting to be irrelevant to the mixed relay, not anticipating that (a) my partner would pick that morning to win, having never had a significant NOL result before and (b) two of the nominally better Victorian teams got themselves disqualified.

So both of you argue from the point of view that you WERE in official teams. So you feel like you are part of it, and you can earn points although the importance of that is variable.

Would you be AS happy if you run unofficial (a bit of a stupid argument cos you cant really argue how you feel until you are put in the actual situation, otherwise you are just arguing about expectations which may or may not be accurate).

Ok Fatrat, from someone who has plenty of experience of being in unofficial, composite and occasionally even incomplete teams, I think that Miss Jones and blair have very valid comments.

Should only people who have a realistic chance of winning a race (maybe 10-20% of the field) compete? If you answer no, as I do, then therefore everyone else is running for lower goals (better ranking etc) and/or intrinsic fun.

And mate, what point of view are you argueing from? Obviously not someone who was at the race. It was a great and fun race, and being in a team whos last leg was in a sprint finish with the bunting being reeled in (go Hilary!) I have no complaints. Yes I was in an official team, but really no chance of winning, whats the difference?

Basically, if you want to be selected in an 'official' team, train hard and get better.

OK, maybe I mis-read what people want. Though this format certainly didnt inspire more entrants to turn up (22 teams = 44 people).

I do note however that there were 25 males and 17 females in the sprint earlier in the day in the elite fields. So its always going to be biased towards quite a few guys missing out.

For comparison
Easter 2008 40+ and 26+
Eureka 2008 27 and 20
Weekend after Easter 2007 about 30 and 20
Easter 2007 27+ and 24+

A 3 to 2 ratio would be much closer to the mark.

No-one from WA is going to travel to an NOL race to run "unofficial". I can understand there might be a few southeastern staters with bugger all else to do for the weekend thinking it might be all right to drive for a couple of hours and have some fun in the bush. That's not a basis for a national competition.

Right, FatRat, Eoin and I are creating our own breakaway National League. Its going to be fabulous. We'll have fantastic terrain, free entry, 5 star accommodation, great courses, prizemoney, podium girls, and no mixed relays. And because its limited to just us we'll be assured of a top 3 place each time.

Ok, I'll make sure that I dont come over to WA next time, Eoin, because I know that I am unlikely to win an NOL and also because I am unlikely to be in a complete mens relay team after the top 3 or even 6 have been selected.

And I suggest others dont go for the same reasons. And make sure you WAers dont come over if you are not in the top 3 of your state entered if the Oz Relays happen to be on. Especially no-one should go anywhere if less than 3 from a state are entered, no chance of being official then.

Quickly becomes pretty self-destructive, doesnt it?

Come to think of it, arent you more likely to be selected in an official relay team if the relay teams only comprise two people? We are actually helping the NOL here!

Btw Eoin, people driving from Melb prob spent more time in a car than you did in a plane. Granted it would be much cheaper.

glenn: I really think you miss the point. Eoin points out the problem with team based events (as in direct team races, not overall counting for you state's score) in a competition that is not supported by huge numbers. Sure, relays suffer the same problem (and we don't have too many of them) but what makes this particular example bad is the large offset we have in numbers between males and females.

Liggo: I'm there. First round Noosa?

Well, if cricket can have the IPL and the ICL, then maybe orienteering needs the NOL to have a breakaway counterpart. I'd call it the SOL.

I thought it was the best relay i have run in australia, one of the very few occasions where there was genuine head to head racing for a large part of the course and the sprint terrain/distance just made it more intense. Plus it gives people who dodnt normally have a chance to be right up there that chance. Half the states have trouble getting teams to races as it is ( WA didnt have any runners at the canberra races and it was only 4 days after easter and included 3 races - 2 individual). I say spice up the NOL with some fun races and maybe we will have enough runners that the outer states can field teams, it could always be held in conjunction with the Aus champs to help the team situation.

agree the actual race format seems great. No-one has argued with that at all.

But why force so many people to run unofficial when we know its inevitable with this particular make-up of teams?

I completely understand the point about the offset in numbers between males and females. I just dont think the situation is as bad as made out.

I find Eoins comment about SE states people just coming because there is nothing else to do is quite insulting, thats all, especially when many dont have a snowflakes of winning, and some even being in an official team. We are all there for the same reason, to compete in a sport we enjoy.

So, to be constructive (and stop my rant!) should the only relay be the Oz relays?

I wasn't there but the format sounds quite similar to our interclub relays in WA. We have 4 short legs that are run by teams of 2-4. Usually the leading teams are made up of 2 elites running 2 legs each but if your club only has 3 people you can put them all in an offical team with one running 2 legs and the others one each. This makes it pretty easy to get everyone into an official team. We don't have any gender restrictions on our teams.

For the national league where the mens and womens team competitions are supposed to be independent it seems wrong to include a mixed relay. What if Victoria are neck and neck with ACT in the womens comp but their mens team is a bit weak. Including a mixed relay might allow ACT to get a 5 point break which could end up deciding the competition. Is that really fair?

How important was the mixed aspect to the enjoyment of the format? If the mens and womens comps were separate and allowed 2-4 runners per team then it would be much easier to include everyone in an official team. I like the idea of having short courses and teams with only 2 runners because it makes it easier to create more competitive teams so it allows more people to feel as though they are really in a race which is a big part of what makes relays fun.

Ok, I'll make sure that I don't come over to WA next time, Eoin, because I know that I am unlikely to win an NOL

How did we get to this? I did not mean that everybody who travels has to expect to win; that's ridiculous. And that's not an insult! Neither was my comment about "bugger all else to do". OK it was an exaggeration; what I was trying to get across is that there are usually competing interests (AR and babies to name 2) so decisions to travel long distances are taken carefully.

And finally Craig's suggestion is a very good one and might solve the issues.

Most that were there thoroughly enjoyed it. It will be one of the most memorable NOL races for me because of the tight head to head racing.

haha Fatrat, its spelled "you're" when you want to call me an idiot. you should write "you're an idiot shep". i like the way you question the bias of other peoples comments when you werent even there! you say "why force so many people to run unofficial", was it really "so many"? was it any more than a normal relay?

i don't think being a mixed relay is the big issue here. whenever you have a relay in the NOL you are going to have people who miss out on being put in an official team. ACT has 4 runners in the top 10 individual standings, one of those runners will have to miss out and probably will have to run in an unofficial team as we dont often have even runners for 2 teams. so should we scrap relays? or make them 4 person? should we scrap the relay at WOC because John Are Myren has no Dutch team mates (except for TDH)?

i do, however, think the mixed aspect was important to the enjoyment. in the same way that running a long race with mass start and loops contirbuted to the enjoyment of sundays race. sure, normal long races and normal relays are enjoyable (sometimes!) but a change is as good as a holiday.

you are an idiot Shep ;)

Eureka relay

men - 10 official teams = 30 runners. 1 runner by themself
women - 7 official teams = 21 runners. 2 runners making up an incomplete team.

so 54 runners, 3 unofficial

Mixed Relay

18 official teams = 36 runners. 4 unofficial teams = 8 runners

so 44 runners, 8 unofficial

Now I haven't submitted a PhD Shep, so can you check my math?

But I think that is disproportionately more people being unofficial, and hints that people may not have come partly due to the format.

fair enough ;)

you really think that people skipped the whole weekend, and therefore 2 quality individual races, because of the mixed relay? what would have happened if we had only the 2 individual races?

I agree Craigs comments are really good.

'Insulting' was also an exaggeration on my behalf, but to explain myself I didnt really like your 'bugger all' comment, because it questions peoples commitment. We all make an effort, and all have competing interests.

And we all understand that WA people do it tougher than others.

as someone that ran unofficial in the eureka relay with someone as a last second ring in they werent too enjoyable and seemed kinda pointless as i only had 2 ppl in my team. for the mixed relay in canberra i ended up being in a official team and i no that the person i ran with at eureka was unofficial but he seemed to enjoy it alot...as his team won however they were unofficial.

so really...no matter whether you were unofficial or not in the mixed relay it was fun and competitive anyway. a different event format is always a good change :)

Why would we scrap mixed relays when they can provide entertainment like this?

I'd like to get a survey of the elites who didnt attend the weekend and see what % say that the fact there was a mixed relay turned them away.
Real reason could include: cant be bothered, kids on the way, running around sydney trying to win a free trip overseas, injured, training for/focusing on triathlons/AR

No-one from WA is going to travel to an NOL race to run "unofficial" - Eoin
If two people came, a man and woman they wouldnt be unjofficial. Its only a mixed relay, not an all-WA-runners-are-automatically-unoffical NOL. All the WA team would have to do is get organised/liaise to see who is running. Would they just not go to nationals in case they are unofficial for the relays because of odd numbers?

I hated the relay because Rob out sprinted me in the finish. I think that it unfair that because Rob is a faster runner than me he beat me?..

Na, it was a super fun relay I would love to run one again.

BTW i wrote on my log about the idea of a NOL of the year award. The idea came about because i loved the event so much! I then thought well ACT have an unfair advantage because its such a good format!

The only sensible argument I have heard so far was Craig's comment questioning why we would have a mixed relay when there are separate men's and women's competitions in the NOL.

Its funny that the automatic reaction by those opposed to something new is just to bar or ban it and not to think about what was good and worked well and how to improve it for the future or at least incorporate those things that worked well in future events. Hmm, actually wasn't that what Robbie was asking when he started this thread?

It sounds like the almost unanimous thoughts of people who actually attended was that it was a fantastic event, some said it was the most enjoyable National League race they had ever competed in. Why then would people suggest it should never be held again!!!

So most agree that it is a great format but some think there are problems with a mixed gender format, maybe next time it should be tried with single sex teams? A nice variation on a normal relay which results in lots of head to head racing and makes it EASIER for states to enter more teams.

I'm intrigued by the suggestion that ppl attend NOL events only because of the points. I would have thought quite a few people turn up because it is a chance to catch up with a far-flung friendship circle? Am I just naive?

BTW Liggo, I'll turn up to watch your breakaway events at Noosa if you impose a dress code as I suggested earlier.

Was just looking results from relays at last years aust champs to see how many teams were unofficial, just one the wa team only had two runners. why did they bother coming to race unofficially :)

Yeah we talked about the mixed relays with separate NOL comps on the weekend, it, for me, is the only valid reason it shouldnt be a NOL. and the thing is thats there is no real way around it.

I'm happy to make a guest appearance at Liggo's breakaway series, just put the first class air tickets in the post.

i dont think people stayed away cos of the format, no. But it didnt entice people either.
This is a clearly bias forum to decide whether or not a race was a success for everyone.
Candyman: read the posts fully. The idea is clearly good, it just needs refinement. Working out the most no of teams possible would be productive. Teams of 3 may also work.
Or since orienteers love to make everything difficult, how about a handicap based on gender composition :)

i dont think people stayed away cos of the format, no. But it didnt entice people either.

This cant be a reason to scrap it, if we knew exactly what enticed people it would have been done a long time ago. Why not try new things to entice people? the NOL isnt exactly pulling in record numbers as it is

I thought it was a lot of fun, right down to the final punch

It would be a great spectator event, however as it was run separately to the mornings sprint those spectating comprised of elites not running and parents

I reckon it would be a good race to be held during the nationals week, on the same day as the schools relay (straight after), that way you would get more spectators and if some NOL teams are down in numbers you may be able to convince some of the faster schools teams runners to run again? I know this would mean it would be a bush sprint but they are just as fun

Okay Fat Rat please point out to me where you or liggo said anything at all positive about the format as a NOL event? I think Liggo went as far as questioning whether there should be any relays in the NOL outside of the National Championships at all and then you agreed with him! I'm sure you probably didn't mean to sound so negative but it did seem to come across that way.

I think separate mens and womens two person sprint relay is the way to go but with a mass start for all and the same courses for mens and womens teams, be good to see a few of the women's teams knock off men's teams!

It reminds me of the most enjoyable event I was part of in 2007, a knock-out style head to head ultrasprint race on a 1:1000 map by Marcus Pinker on a Gothenburg hill-top with the British Junior Squad. males and females competed separately but on the same courses so the overall champion was Hazel Wright who got around the final course faster than Doug Tullie or Hector Haines. The map was so detailed and the orienteering so intense that running speed was much less important and the girls could really compete with the guys.

Ok everyone, its now time for a big group hug. I think some of those far flung friendships _________ was talking about need some TLC.

Just reading this thread again after some time, having been impressed by its longevity (participation).
A major disincentive for participation by the smaller states seems to be their inability to get the numbers to make up official teams.
Why can't mixed state teams divide any points gained rather than be deemed unofficial? Or has it already been tried?

aahhh i wrote an email with that suggestion (when i first thought it was 2men, 2women teams) it didnt get very far though

Group hug? Make that a cyber-hug.

As a non-NOL I heard favourable comments from other non-NOLs who attended the relay. So in one sense I was sorry I missed the spectacle; instead attending the "Turner To Monet" exhibition at the National Gallery. No, not really!!!!

I'd persevere with the mixed format relay and see how it works second time around, maybe with some tweaking of the rules to reflect the positive comments from this forum.

i'm gonna finish this thread with good work oact and everyone involved in planning the mixed relay. it was thoroughly enjoyed by all.

anyone writes any more i'm gonna print this thread out and make them eat it.

Will there be chocolate sauce on that ?

Now you have an excuse to come and visit Sheffield.

ok i started it so i might as well finish it. Been offline so amazed with the response.
I agree it was one of the best races I've run in Australia.
Although we have now split the NOL mens/womens competitions I believe the Mixed component was extremely important for the success of the race.
I do agree that perhaps it doesn't need to be a NOL race.
I certainly don't think the format would have keep anyone away. And for next year hopefully word of mouth promotion as to how fun and exciting it was will encourage more teams. It would be good to have held it in front of a good crowd.
I prefer to keep the 1man1women format. I considered 2men1woman, but surely this only discourages women from coming. I would prefer 1-1 and then states can try harder to encourage their fringe elite women/junior gilrs/old ducks to compete.

I'd like to see Craig wear a skirt. Then he can run all the legs as 'the' WA team!!

Why not work on solving the gender inbalance in orienteering. Must be some of you blokes who can go and chat up a few running girls! Print it in rice paper and I'll eat it Shep.....with caramel sauce thanks!