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Attackpoint - performance and training tools for orienteering athletes

Discussion: Guess the route, win a compass!

in: Orienteering; General

Jun 9, 2024 12:11 AM # 
Free entry:
All are welcome to guess the winning 2-hour scrabble-O route for Sunday June, 30. Be sure to read the guidelines for the event and refer to the image (linked below) showing the location of letters and start/finish relative to each other. Fill out form before 8:00 am Sunday June, 30. The closest guess to actual winning route will win a Moscow Model 3 compass and will be notified by email. In case of a tie, the earlier submission wins. See:
Jun 10, 2024 12:52 AM # 
Are you expecting people to be posting routes here or just totals?

If they're posting routes, maybe people who plan to run the event should to avoid this thread until afterward, lest they get any ideas they would not have had on their own.
Jun 10, 2024 1:38 AM # 
Actually, if someome wanted to they could get the outine of the map frrom Open Street Map, the trails from the park map, the contours from NOAA and the control locations from this contest but what would be the sense of that. It strips one's experience of the essence of orienteering - self chosen route through unknown terrain.
Scrabble O? Sounds like an interesting idea. My wife is a scrabble fiend. Perhap this would get her interested in orienteering.
Jun 10, 2024 2:47 AM # 
BOK people are very innovative. They recently introduced DogScent Orienteering,
which is not to be confused with Tracking, where a trail of scent is laid out on the ground, the dog follows it, and the handler follows the dog. In DogScent Orienteering the handler navigates to the controls with the dog, and the dog identifies if there is a specific odor there...and of course they are all prolific Fox Hunters as well.
Jun 10, 2024 5:25 AM # 
Gordhun, try talking to the participants in either the Brisbane or Sydney (Australia) street series street score events, where they require planning time in order to maximise their points (I just turn over my map and run off as half the fun of the event is in picking a route on the fly).
Jun 10, 2024 7:25 PM # 
Hey Matt, I'm just spreading the word and inviting anyone who wants to submit a guess via Google Form
Have already gotten some interesting and entertaining route submissions. I think it's quite possible some are "over bidding" on what is physically possible within the 2-hour timeframe. Remember, this is closest to actual winning route on Sunday June 30. But who knows, maybe some really fast orienteers show up and throw down ;-)
Jun 11, 2024 1:12 AM # 
Yes, I noticed that start was 8-12 and course close at 2, so I was initially thinking you had up to 6 hours - an easy clear. I didn’t notice the 2 hour time limit at first. So re-thinking what is possible.
Jun 11, 2024 1:19 AM # 
Thanks, Matt! I should have read more thoroughly to notice the form was there, but good to post it here, too.

Your post probably spreads the word and builds interest best, but now we have the event on attackpoint, too.

Might also give a warning to people guessing routes not to count on any 8 min/km runners showing up, unless that describes themselves :)
Jun 11, 2024 2:30 AM # 
Awesome, thank you for posting the event, Matt! Also meant to add...
RE Gordhun's sleuthing: the contest schematic doesn't specify north while only one point (start/finish) can be geolocated. Not impossible, but probably not worth it. Besides, the biggest obstacle on this course will likely be the vegetation, which isn't very accurately mapped anywhere. The course orienteering map probably comes closest, but still falls short! You won't know until you go!
Jun 11, 2024 8:37 AM # 
Jun 11, 2024 1:01 PM # 
Hmmm pretty good Jagge... but are both layers rotated to magnetic north?! ;-)

Don't go wandering into the woods with that map just yet. You could probably use it to better guess an optimal 2-hour scrabble-o route, though!
Jun 11, 2024 1:09 PM # 
To help get the juices flowing: this famous pangram "cwm fjord bank glyphs vext quiz" would achieve the highest possible score of 174 points but couldn't be completed in 2 hours...

EDIT: these may not all be legit words, will be determined based off scrabble dictionary. Also, I neglected to take into account overlapping words, so theoretically a score of higher than 174 could be possible.
Jun 11, 2024 10:30 PM # 
Sounds like an entertaining event--a little different from the Scrabble Rogaine I participated in last year, where the Scrabble part was scored separately from the rogaining part for those that wanted to try it. Each of 40 controls had a letter you learned on visiting it, and you had five (or maybe it was ten) minutes after your return to arrange up to 7 of the letters you had acquired during the 6 hour event into a Scrabble word fitting into a string of boxes with, if I remember correctly, a double or a triple letter score in one of them, and a 50 point bonus if you filled all seven boxes.
I'm finding it a little harder to be sure of your scoring rules, which seem to be a little ambiguous as to whether you get any credit at all for letters that don't happen to be located in a set of three or more consecutive letters forming a word, or whether you get multiple extra counts for ones that happen to fall into overlapping parts of two words which are not wholly contained within each individual word. I think after your later mention of a 174 point maximum that no letter gets more than twice its normal value, but it isn't clear in your example where all of the letters do fall into a Scrabblish word (can't quite make myself think of vext as an English word) if letters not contained in a "word" sequence count at all. Is my supposition correct, using the letters of your examples in the last three sentences of your guidelines, that doing controls in the order TCAPRISMUG would be scored as 1 point for the T and twice the Scrabble value for each of the other letters, since each of them falls into one or more of CAP, CAPRI, CAPRIS, PRISM, SMUG or MUG, for a total value of 33 points? In other words, write the control letters in order of visitation, put a dot over each one that is part of a three or more letter sequence forming a word, then score normal Scrabble value for every letter without a dot over it and double value for those that have a dot?

The other question that comes to mind in your separate contest here is how do you evaluate the closeness to the actual winning route? Longest sequence of letters overlapping those of the actual route? Largest percentage? Includes the most same words? Closest to the actual score or distance covered?
Jun 11, 2024 11:14 PM # 
Hi Eldersmith, thank you! I edited my previous post based on your feedback/questions. When scoring, I'll be referencing a scrabble dictionary (although the online version seems to be a bit ambiguous about vext). As for overlapping: pluralized and conjugated words are not counted twice nor are words within words, so I'd count the longest of each unique word. As for your example, capris, prism and smug would all be tallied. Capri/capris is kind of a toss up as both are acceptable singular form. I'd give you the extra point with the s, you don't get both words as capri/capris is not unique from each other. Cap and mug are words within words and thus not counted. As for the contest: I plan to first look for the most word matches. If there's a tie, I will look to the sequencing of words, if still tied the earliest submission wins. That's the plan anyway.

PS- the Scrabble Rogaine sounds cool, where was/is it?
Jun 12, 2024 4:03 PM # 
The Scrabble Rogaine was put on by North Country Orienteering, which usually puts on about two rogaines a year up in the Adirondacks, with usually 2 or 3 optional time lengths somewhere in the 3-9 hour range. Most often they have figured out a tie-in with some sort of classic board game somewhere in their scoring. This spring, though, they instead used the solar eclipse as a theme for their rogaine, since they happened to have a map neatly centered on the path of totality, and moved their start window to center the period of totality near the middle of the 6-hour event (and gave suggestions for a few controls which should give particularly good viewing opportunities).
So the scoring is done by extracting from the ordered sequence of controls visited each word over three letters not totally contained in another word, then summing the scrabble scores from each of these words as if they were placed on a double-word box to get a total, so the capris, prism and smug would add up to a total of 20+18+24=62, and no credit for the leading t that did not form part of a word? I don't completely understand your example about cats, in the context of your note that conjugated or pluralized words not getting scored twice. Would the sequence bcatws get scored as worth 10 points because cat was singular, but bcatsw get scored as 6 points because cats is plural? And how about conjugated forms? Does hang get counted as 16 points because it is the infinitive form, but hung only worth 8 points because it is a past tense conjugated form of the verb?
Jun 12, 2024 8:21 PM # 
I added some contours I found from the internet.
Jun 12, 2024 9:18 PM # 
Jagge: looking even better!
Eldersmith: you score with the letters that don't spell words, so you would get the point for the T in your example. You get double letter point value for each letter in an acceptable word two letters in length or longer. You get to visit each control only once, which means you can have at most one of each letter in your route sequence. If you happen to join together two words that share some letters (but also contain letters of their own and are thus "unique" words), you can reuse those overlapping letters. Here's an example with the word cats: C-A-T-S-M-U-G. One might hopefully expect to score 52 points for the words cats, cat, at, smug and mug: 2(6)+2(5)+2(2)+2(7)+2(6). But cat and cats are just the same word pluralized, so only one gets counted (the higher value one is cats). At and mug are examples of words within words with no unique letter, thus they are not counted. So the correct score for this example would be 26 for the words cats and smug 2(6)+2(7). As for conjugation rule, sorry for confusion, hang and hung are both acceptable. I'm trying to say that "trying" is better example here: you get points for "trying" but not also try.
Jun 12, 2024 10:27 PM # 
Sounded simple enough to me.
Letters that make words = double point value
Letters that don't make words = single point value
Letters can be used twice if overlapping but not if contained completely within other words
Jun 13, 2024 2:59 AM # 
I think the "conjugated" concept might be better described as "suffixed".
Jun 13, 2024 8:52 AM # 
Great, thank you tRicky and jjcote! Yeah, I'm trying for KISS with the rules here, but am realizing the way they were originally written could be problematic.
Jun 13, 2024 9:56 AM # 
Is one permitted to use a letter twice? Say, for instance, they visit another 'letter' between each punch in at the duplicated letter?
Jun 13, 2024 12:04 PM # 
Gordhun: good question, not for this event.
Jun 13, 2024 1:00 PM # 
Thanks for the idea, I'm going to try an amended version of this concept at our annual Christmas event (next time the date's free, possibly 2025).
Jun 13, 2024 9:42 PM # 
Thanks for the series of clarifications! I think I've finally got it figured out. I often have difficulty interpreting instructions, and not everyone is quite so helpful and friendly in sorting out my misinterpretations!
Jun 13, 2024 11:08 PM # 
My main misunderstanding was that your are giving more credit than I had been imagining for words with more complex overlap structures. For the sequence JOCULARDENT which contains the three partially overlapping words JOCULAR, LARD, and ARDENT, none of which are fully contained within another word, you intended the valuation to be 16*2+5*2+7*2 = 56, where I had been imagining a system where you added up the values of the characters in the whole string, plus the values of the characters in each of the words JOCULAR, LARD, and DENT in the string (leaving out the totally included words JO, OCULAR, LA, AR, DEN, EN, DENT) to give 21+16+5+7 = 49. I realize now that it wasn't what your were trying to describe, but I was first imagining a system where you were trying to give double credit for any letter that fitted into a word, and when that turned out not to be what your were after, that you were trying to give an extra credit for each time it occurred in a word. My usual problem of imagining the way I would do something, then trying to make the description of the way somebody else had in mind fit my own preconceived notion.
Jun 14, 2024 1:54 AM # 
On the plus side, given the course it's unlikely anyone will even think to form that exact string of letters :P (yes I realise there could be other similar solutions)
Jun 14, 2024 3:55 AM # 
Discussion of Scrabble rules often invites the suggestion that the game be re-named “Squabble”.
Jun 14, 2024 1:01 PM # 
mikeminium: ha, so true!
TRicky: also true, not sure how many will ultimately partake in either/both the event and the compass contest, but hopefully a good amount for each. I think the winner of this contest will be one of the participants who bothers to take time to analyze this "pre-map" and submit their planned route as guess. This would obviously be a huge advantage even for a sub-optimal route. Non-participants could get lucky, though!
Jun 15, 2024 1:55 AM # 
This is the right kind of orienteering puzzle/game for summertime in the Carolinas....without actually going to forest where you get nasty oak mite bites. It's like having an itchy pea-sized rock under your skin for several days. I recently had one on my scrotum after a forest off-trail run.
Jun 15, 2024 11:21 AM # 
No thanks on those oak mites! Streamering the course earlier this month yielded 10 ticks crawling around my legs, none had a chance to latch before I got em off. Summertime orienteering definitely has its challenges. But submitting a route guess at should be bug free ;-)

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