Discussion: MapRun for races

Does anybody have examples of MapRun being used for more than just virtual events, club training, clubs events etc.

i.e., used in a larger in-person (mass start) race instead of SI?

we use for both street-o and some mtbo events in/near Melbourne. In the streets it's great. I find in the bush it can be a bit slow to react and is ok but better to have a flag out too - then can always use gps track to confirm people have hit the control - it doesn't really have the nuance of being the right side of the boulder etc.

Thanks Jayne. I should have clarified that the potential use would be for a 6 hour rogaine where control locations are generally easier (top of hill) and reaction time isn’t as crucial. And yes we would hang flags as well but without SI (but maybe with old skool pin punching as a backup if maprun doesn’t respond).

We used it for some rogaines 2-3 hour in Dunedin, NZ. Including steep sided, bush gullies and no flags (might have been some tape).

thoughts
1) lock the accepted distance/accuracy to say 10m, especially with flags out
2) encourage use of sound/beeps to recognise the location, with that I never had to get my phone out to check.
3) definitly have someone test run the accuracy after setting the sites

It's a good way to run an event and get quick results without needing SI.

Just returned from a 1/3/6-hour score-o in Edmonton where maprun controls were used (for at least the 2nd year in a row) for the further out controls (a handful for a 3-hour, lots more for the 6-hour).

It works fine, but you should really not lower the punch tolerance / accepted distance below the 15m default and should even consider allowing users to adjust that upwards if they have an older phone or if it is cloudy or if there are trees or other things obscuring the sky.

It is frustrating when you are standing at the control location (which was also set out using Maprun GPS) and Maprun doesn't beep because it thinks you are 20m away still due to the proclivities of GPS. It is super super frustrating when that happens and you don't have physical controls put out and it doesn't beep so you go and relocate and double-check that you are in the right spot.

As a Maprun course setter, you might think that allowing people to punch from 15m to 20m away is unfair and so you should decrease that, but that's pointless. If you are trying to have a highly technical control location using maprun without physical controls, you just encourage people to get roughly to the right spot and then run randomly around until the darn thing beeps (or in an avalanche search pattern if you are really keen).

TL/DR; If you want to do precise orienteering to a point where 15m makes a difference, don't use maprun and use some kind of physical control/punch. If getting to within 15-25m of the control is good enough, maprun works great.

I think Maprun is fine for the converted, as in ppl that already Orienteer/Rogaine, but I think its asking a bit much of beginners, as they do really like to see those O Flags. They get great confidence from seeing the pyshical flag, and dont have to use the app that they haven't used before

The first time I used MapRun was at the Dontgetlost IceBreaker in 2020. I remember good attendance. I think we could start within a time range and possibly on either Sat. or Sun. but there was a designated time range to start when DGL staff would be present so it felt like an in-person event. Patrick would remember more.

I do the timing and results for a 3/8hr adventure race -run, canoe, bike stuff (last one was this weekend past). Along with MapRun, runners need to punch a card so they do need to actually get to the control. Also, the control sites have a QR code. As a Hybrid it may not suit your actual question but lessons learned over the last few years doing it:

1. KML accuracy is so important given the much larger map scale in these events. As per normal Maprun, the map accuracy is a separate item - the georef of the actual control site needs to be double checked, not done off the map. Good, obvious control locations is vital (not differenct than any best practises for Maprun).

2. You need a backup system whether physical punches, recording a code on a card etc (I'm assuming people are paying to run this and will care if they can't Maprun punch for some reason). If you plan to not have any physical controls and a backup be prepared to deal with people who have no MapRun at the end. I love MapRun but it depends on GPS, phones, phone settings and the user.

3. Add QR codes to your control flags.

4. Realize that no matter how much information you give out prior, there will be a surprisingly high number of people who show up without Maprun installed, phone settings wrong, no idea how to get the event up, head off with the wrong event up and complain after that it was not punching etc etc. This excludes the ones who assume their 5 yr old phone will last 8 hrs with GPS running and no battery pack. I had one person who, 5 minutes before the start, was trying to install MapRun and kept cliking "NO" to "Give this application access to location services?"

4. We use a Start flag (GPS Punch) rather than a Mass Start although I would rather do a mass start. Lots of adrenaline at the start and people do not really check to make sure they get this punch so we always have a couple who do not punch start and that obviously ends the Maprun side of things. On the flip side it might have stopped a couple of people who realized they had things set up wrong.

5. We use a short 4 punch Validation course around the arena so people can test this and make sure it works. About 50% do this!

Overall I think we are successful with well over 96% participants getting through completely with MapRun. One layer down are the ones who went to a control and did not realize it did not punch and did not use the QR code (hence the paper punches to validate).

Scoring: i developed a spreadsheet (with lots of code) that contains all the basic participant registration info and their Maprun name (this last part has some issues!!). As runners come in part of the process is to upload their results. The spreadsheet will suck in (that's the technical term" the Maprun results, cross reference this with the main sheet and update results on the main page. This allows very quick adjustments (adding controls missed in Maprun but on the punch card, changing time etc) so all the final results are maintained in our system. This is why I call this a hybrid system. We probably had about 50 teams come in within a 20 minute period and for the majority it was a quick cross reference between the punch card and the maprun imported results and good to go. Remainder generally took 20 seconds more to select/change the controls punched list in the application to match the card and good to go. We would even have the track available if someone lost their card and we needed to validate something but I don't recall needing this at any point.

Longer post than I planned. Overall, I love MapRun but I would hesitate to use it alone for a major event without a secondary punch system (or flip these around in priority) unless the event was a "this is fun and if your Maprun does not work just enjoy the day" type of thing. An alternative approach might be to use the Maprun console as an admin to review and adjust results as needed but I'm not sure how effective this would be nor would it handle quickly those that didn't end up with a result at all.

thanks everyone for the info. If OK I may reach out to a few of you over email for more details.

The idea we are considering is for there to be physical flags with a pin punch backup. MapRun would be used instead of SI.

Interestingly feedback from the half dozen fun beginner score-O courses we have set up locally is that families prefer maprun over flags. We prefer using both together.

Michael, if you have a link to the race you organized using maprun please email the link: jmw at mcmaster dot ca

Just to follow up Bash (and to reiterate what most people have already said), yeah we had a number of MapRun races in 2020/21. We still use it for easy (trail only) courses that are available year round.
Flags are still a must for any orienteering race, even more so when using MapRun. Our policy was; if you got within touching distance of the flag and the App hadn't beeped, just go on to the next one - the HITMO function can add a missed CP after the fact. I would always up the MapRun tolerance to 20m.
Now we're able to touch communal things again, I like the idea having the pin punch as back up instead.

Problem is if you want accuracy, you'll *always* get people who don't go to the precise location. We've been trying to drill this back into people post-Covid but I am always seeing people at events going as far as the beep (not the physical site) and then moving onto their next location.

Nav-X used in tandem with SI ePunch at an April event in Pacheco State Park. I opted to try it out and the version of the program I installed did not start for me or track my progress after I "pushed the button." Then I found out I had downloaded an older version of the program for my Android phone. But it wasn't clear to me which one to download because there were quite a few I could download while waiting in the parking lot... I'm not sure how well it worked for other participants

I've had many issues with MapRun - the latest version - simply not working (records the start but then none of the controls and no gps trace) to the point I just use gps now and upload to MapRun later. Means no confirmation beep at the site but for street events I'm pretty confident of where I am anyway.

tRicky, I have not seen anything similar with the latest version 7 (called just 'MapRun'). Can I suggest you contact their support support@maprun.net or post on the forum http://maprun.308.s1.nabble.com/ if you have a chance.

Backstreet Boy, the version numbering is a bit weird. After MapRunF they switched to numbers with MapRun6 being the second latest version (and still supported etc). With the newest, the version is 7 but the name has reverted to just MapRun which can be confusing. You can have Maprun6 and Maprun (7) installed side by side.

That's how mine is set up, side-by-side on my screen (6 and 7). I presume I have a problem with MapRunG (the gps app) since that's where the problem seems to originate.

Strange. I will often load an event, send to my garmin then revert the phone app back to phone and run both. Still have not seen any issue with V7 that I can recall but might have missed something. I while back I removed MapRun6 from the phone once comfortable with V7.

@Hammer I think with control flags out and the rogaine control sites you mention it should work well - has the advantage of being able to use it not at event time too.

The better question to these answers, imo, is when will a North American company provide a competitive solution to SI that doesn’t charge $40 for stick worth $2 and a control box $100 worth $5. I don’t accept that cheaper better alternatives, with existing technology, can not be mass produced, so that it is both profitable and cost effective. The same goes for mapping software, that is user friendly. All of our sport’s tech and processing are antiquated and way too complicated for it ever to become inviting enough for people to volunteer their time and effort to expand the sport. Spit out of a map and let me buy easily replaceable and programmable equipment/software. /endrant

No North American (or Chinese) company anticipates enough sales volume to make it worthwhile.

If it was for military use they'd be charging $1000 for the stick and $20,000 for each brick so consider yourself lucky. Actually they probably think only military types do orienteering (learning from European examples) so perhaps that's why they're so expensive.

MIclimber there is a North American orienteering entrepreneur who built his own timing system along the lines of the SI system, used it for a couple of years and then abandoned it for SI. I thought he would continue to improve his model and then put it on the market but no.
But for sure in batteries alone he would not have been selling SI-competitive 'bricks' for $5. I think his prototypes were using off the counter AA batteries.