Discussion: Attracting trail runners to orienteering

I'm sure there have been many discussions on this topic here before. What's the verdict - what works for attracting trail runners to orienteering?
Does setting "runners' courses" that are long and mostly on trails work? Something else?
All ideas welcome!

I think the short, unsatisfactory answer is "it depends".

It depends are where you are. What are the demographics like? What's the trail running culture like? What are trail running race expectations (offered distances, event production, etc)?

Missoula is obviously different than Seattle, so what may work here may not work there, and vice versa.

This is a question that I've thought about a lot, and I've tried a few different things, both in my role as an orienteering event organizer (through a traditional orienteering club), and as a part-time worker at a company that produces trail running races and navigation races.

One analogy that I've used before that is there's a bridge between trail running and orienteering, and in order to get trail runners to cross it from their side, you (as an orienteering event organizer) need to cross at least half of it first, from the other side.

That may mean something like collaborating with an existing trail race organizer, or you (as an orienteering event organizer) organizing your own trail race with an orienteering angle.

If the local expectation of a trail race is that they are at least 10k long, then maybe don't offer something that's 5k or less (and certainly not a traditional "white" course)! Trail runners like to run, so give them opportunities to run as often as possible, even if the navigation is too simple. Remember, we want them to enjoy crossing the bridge. If their first steps aren't fun, they'll likely just turn around.

Also, if the local expectation is that there's a mass start, then have one, too. At this point, I don't really care about following and navigating on your own. If people want to stick together (either for camaraderie or advantage), that's great.

I know a lot of orienteers would advocate for a score-o / rogaine style, and it definitely has a lot of advantages: gathering at the start, gathering at the finish, no DNF's, flexible in terms of race distance, race duration, and navigational challenge. It's a fantastic format for a one-size-fits-all event, and would interest some trail runners.

That said, for many years now, I've been the beginner instructor for an annual 2/4/8-hour navigation race that's the same weekend and location as a trail run that we're also organizing (meaning that I'm primarily working with trail runners). And one thing I've learned is that the flexibility of a score-o / rogaine format does have a cost: the unknowns for a first-timer can be overwhelming. How far can I go? How fast am I going to be moving? How hard are the controls going to be? How much time should I budget? Why are some controls worth more than others?

We give them at least an hour to plan their adventure, most pretty much all of them have no idea what to plan for and these are the ones that actually step onto the bridge and sign up. How many aren't even signing up? I don't want to discourage a score-o, it's just I'd consider the messaging a little bit to help manage the expectations of potential participants.

One format that I conceived to appeal to trail runners was the "Checkpoint Run", but between the pandemic limiting events and then me having significantly less time to personal work on them, they haven't really hit full stride yet. I can elaborate further later, but it's basically a race with various point-to-point loops (eg: short-easy, long-easy, medium-intermediate, short-hard, long-hard) and you try to complete as many loops as you can within a time limit. It's a mass start; everyone starts with the short-easy loop first (following encouraged), and then after that, you can pick which loops you want to attempt in whatever order, even re-running loops again. The idea is that it's a sort-of mash-up between a trail run and a navigation race with a little tiny bit of Barkley DNA in there, too.

Also understand that an overwhelming majority of trail runners will have little to no interest in orienteering, no matter how you package it. That's ok. Don't worry about them. Try to make something fun and interesting for the minority, and hopefully then you'll have a subset of them cross the bridge completely.

Make sure to triple the entry fee because it's not high quality without high cost.

I ran cross country in high school 40 years ago and kept up a bit of trail running because I like being immersed in nature. But back then there wasn't much adult trail running so I drifted to hiking and wilderness canoe tripping. Half a dozen years ago I was asked to join an adventure racing team because of my backcountry navigation skills and paddling skills. The two who asked me to join their team were cyclists and runners. I brought the canoeing skills and wilderness navigation skills. As the de facto team navigator I searched out orienteering and signed up for an event. I was hooked. The longer in nature, the better. Where is this going....as a trail runner I'm intrigued by the long format courses such as the Possum Trot, Rogaines (which seem to be few and far between in Canada), European style Mountain Marathon events (the word marathon is bit of a misnomer--think long distance race, in this case a 2 day long distance race with orienteering point-to-point checkpoints where participants carry gear and camp overnight) and the previous mentioned Barkley.
I'm generalizing, but trail runners are laidback, friendly, competitive in a cooperative way, etc. I think Pink Socks nailed it, mass start, nav race, long distance, a couple duration options to mimic distance choice of trail races, even ultra distances. The best selling points I promote is that as you age the orienteering distances age with you (i.e. get shorter) so it's a true lifelong sport as well as the age categories. This is where orienteering shines. Sign up for an ultra event and you might have 3 distance choices, 50K, 50 M, 100 K. Great when you are 30, 40, 50, 60 years old but at some point I suggest the orienteering community is better at the lifelong spirit with its age categories. Plus age categories also means you compete and get recognized within our age group (trail races usually only have the top 3 women and men).

I don't have as much experience as Pink Socks, but I have recruited a number of runners from the local running community to come out and try orienteering, and several have stuck with it. What I'm finding is that the more serious ultra-running crowd (which is what many self-described "trail runners" really are) are not interested in most of the orienteering events we put on. As Pink Socks alludes to, they aren't interested in 5k courses, they don't want to stand around and scratch their heads, they want to get in real distance. I think it would be possible to host a crossover event and get some to do it, we just haven't done it yet.

The runners who have come are generally the ones who are not seriously wedded to either road running or ultramarathon trail runs. They are people who run a lot and love it, but aren't worried about the track workout that they will miss if they go orienteering, or that they won't be getting in the 20-miler that the need to get in. I don't know what to call that crowd or how to market to them, but that does seem to be the sweet spot for crossovers.

Do you think trail running organisers are pondering how to attract orienteers to their sport? What would the incentive be, give them a map to follow rather than silly arrows or floured markings on the ground that make it too easy. Have a couple of off road legs. Put a control along the trail. Make the entry cheaper (I actually don't know how much orienteering and trail running costs in North America but there is a vast difference where I'm from).

Boris, what's the incentive behind attracting trail runners specifically?

I ask because I think that affects that approach to take. If you think they are a potentially fertile market for folks that might have a real talent and keenness for orienteering and you're wanting to capture those few folks that will take up orienteering seriously then that's one thing. If you're wanting to offer an event that is orienteering but for a larger captured market then that's another. Or maybe you're just wanting to spread the word and see what happens over time. That's good too.

What I've seen in Ottawa is that everyone in the trail community here knows orienteering and many have tried it. Here we are a quite well respected sport and club and are very much a part of the outdoor endurance sports community. That's not the case in most places. We've built that up over time. Even so, most trail runners are still trail runners. Some might come out every once in a while and we have had a few real converts.

I guess what I'm saying with that story is to keep your expectations reasonable!

Thanks everyone. Canadian, to answer your questions, my goal is to essentially get GrizO to where Ottawa orienteering seems to be. In other words, I want the entire outdoor endurance sports community in Missoula to be aware of us, know what we are, and understand what we offer (not just the misconceptions of geocaching or setting declinations on compasses and going westnorthwest for 3 clicks).

So, to go back to your first paragraph, it's options (1) and (3) that I am thinking of. There is a well-organized, fairly cohesive trail running community in Missoula, and I expect that of the 400-500 folks who regularly show up to the local trail races, perhaps 10-20 might really like orienteering and have a talent for it. But of course, there is only one chance to make a first impression, so I want that first impression to be as optimized to their interests as possible.

I had similar thoughts about the nordic ski community here. I approached that by getting more involved in the training and racing scene here over the winter, helping out with coaching for the youth program, and in return, asking them to publicize our events. Our first Ski-O drew about a dozen 'crossovers' from the ski community. Nearly all of them have become club members and come to multiple events, including foot events. I am looking for something similar for trail runners, but am finding that community tougher to get into in a similar way.

PinkSocks>> These are great thoughts, and I appreciate your experience. I will try out some of the formats you are suggesting and report back (once I finally make contact with the main folks driving the trail running activity here).

Cristina>> I appreciate your experience also, and agree that the demographic most likely to 'cross over' are not the folks who are already winning ultramarathons.

Part of Cristina's recruiting success might largely be because...she is Cristina. :-)

There's an ultra-runner couple in Ouray, CO, putting on an event that presumably has some crossover appeal: "Lost One Standing".

(Unfortunately, it conflicts with GrizO's NRE.)

How about a novel format on a brand new map in an incredible location? Check out the Lost One Standing (https://skypilots.org/events/lost.php) on June 4-5 in Ouray out on the Western Slope.

* Tackle a new orienteering course every hour until no one else is left!

* Choose a new course each hour (24 available, some beginner, some intermediate, some advanced).

* If you miss an hourly deadline, or don't care about them, or just want to take a break, continue in the consolation division and complete as many of the courses as you like.


The Map

* A genuine orienteering map, a product of three years of field work.

* Printed at 1:7,500 scale, enlarged from 1:15,000, mostly conforming with ISOM 2017-2, except for 10 m contours because the area is pretty steep! There are also a few extra custom symbols.

* All twenty four courses are printed on a single large map with no course lines drawn (so it looks a lot like a rogaine map, but is used very differently).

* Courses are somewhat unusual, very crisp with one to five control flags each, and par times ranging from 33 to 58 minutes.

Other Features

* Return to HQ every hour for food, drink, resupply, and demotivational humor.

* Good for all skill levels including families.

* Pizza oven.

* Jeerleaders.


About Us

* The Sky Pilots Endurance Navigators are a fairly new multi-discipline club based in Western Colorado, focusing on orienteering, peak bagging, and endurance events. Its founders, Eric Robinson and Ginny LaForme are ultrarunners and former North American rogaining age group champions. We have a variety of unusual events and we hope to see you at one of them soon!

>>Make sure to triple the entry fee

You nailed it. In fact, I suggest ten-fold increase.
Millennials will arrive instantly. They like everything "green".

Lost One Standing sounds cool although that one 'par time' of 58 minutes sounds a bit borderline if you have to return within the hour! Might be worth leaving that one until the end (at which time the terrain will be very familiar).

bbrooke, Lost One Standing, sounds interesting. Thanks for mentioning it.

(Just to be clear, I posted that as an example of a trail-runner / orienteer crossover event -- not to draw participation away from the GrizO meet. GrizO will be my first choice if I can find an airfare <$600...)

And maybe the Sky Pilots (Eric & Ginny) could give you tips on how to lure trail runners, Boris.

Yes, please come to the GrizO NRE!

bbrooke>>Road trip?

developing a cross over outdoor endurance community of orienteering, AR, and trail running through attractive hybrid race formats has been very beneficial for AR and O nav sports here in southern Ontario.

We did that through adventure running format and ARK but I like the idea of a 6-8 hour “Lost One Standing” as a way to achieve it as well. Start with trail run, then marked off trail gnarly run, and then an easy nav (no marking and map required) loop and increasingly make nav harder and running gnarlier.

A few years ago, we had some AR enthusiasts create their own adventure by riding bikes to the orienteer event. They registered, grabbed a map and ran the course, then cycled back to their remote rendezvous point.
Bike-run-bike

Runner's courses with more trails could attract more trail runners, but the off-trail orienteering experience could also be made more attractive to trail runners.

As a sometimes trail runner with about 5 years of orienteering, I would love to see more attention paid to off-trail flow, runability, and route aesthetics at our events. In Canada, it seems like our course planning focuses on technical difficulty and winning times which seems to translate into seeing how quickly one can thrash through swamps and brush. Arguably a fun challenge for many, but very different from the fast flow of a good trail run.

Totally agree Tim.

Somewhat relatedly, do any clubs here do post-event surveys to find out what keeps people coming back, and what would bring people back if they haven't come back?

It doesn't help novices to pretend that they don't have to learn anything new. Orienteering without a navigational challenge is just trail running. Advertise the learning curve as the attraction. At a recent park event I overheard one of our more blunt talking members tell some trail runners "Orienteering is for runners who aren't thick"; he has a point. Several of them took an orange map and came back smiling.

New advertising strapline, " Running for people who aren't stupid !". It isn't going to catch on.

Setting courses that are fun is so important! And its a tricky skill. How do you distill down a definition of a fun course? What are the important elements?

@ Tim: As the former race course planner for the Raid the Hammer and some Raid the Rib Adventure Runs I found it was important to have a nice balance of running flow and running gnarliness.

Actually since these races are 25-30km long with winning times of 3h15m one will inevitably be faced with having some less than ideal terrain somewhere on the course. So I deliberately would celebrate that those sections were going to be tough in the race notes (eg Game of Thorns, Swamp Thing, etc.). Note: I got this naming sections of the race course idea from the Dances with Dirt Trail Relay in Hell, Michigan.

If enough prizing was available we would give prizes to teams with the fastest times on certain stages including trail run, mtn climb, tougher nav, etc.

So I think that is best summed up about “promoting expectations”. Not all of the race will be fast and flowing running but a lot of it will be and to your point about aesthetics i would often have the course go out of its way to see a nice waterfall or a historical location, etc. That’s what people remember and talk about from the race.

bbrooke, no worries, I have my eyes on the PNOF June 4-11--not the lost one standing.

As for Orienteering, the thrill is in the skill!

I'm a fan seeing the interesting sections of the map (running through interesting terrain, passing interesting features, etc.) and of route choice.

which seems to translate into seeing how quickly one can thrash through swamps and brush

I've seen this mentality as well, typically indicating low quality courses by course designers without orienteering culture, with background in para-military, bush-whacking, adventure/mud/spartan-race, treasure-hunts, wilderness-adventures, fun-in-the-woods etc etc.

Orienteering has to preserve its unique identity of the thinking sport, to remain attractive.

Great comments. Even from just one experience I can attest to the great balance set by the course setter in Raid the Hammer events. The event I attended also seemed to be populated mostly by people who did not go orienteering but there they were - orienteering by a different name.
May I add another bit of advice - it comes from reading some Facebook posts from the Western NC Orienteering club. You want to attract trail runners? Meet them half way. The WNC group seems to be going after the road running crowd. They are meeting them half way by starting a Map Run Monday series using a greatly simplified map and start/finishes at pubs familiar to the running crowd. I think the concept translates well to the trails where you can work in the concept that 'yes, shortcutting is allowed'.
Final point: work WITH not against the established trail run event organizers.

My suggestion - get your fastest and fittest orienteers (both genders) to enter a series of trail runs and absolutely smash the regulars.

They already do that in Vic but it doesn't seem to attract trail runners over.

off-trail flow

At least locally when I want to just really rip, I drop down to Orange / M/F-16, which seems to meet that.

Mr Wonderful - there's something to be said for that. I really like in mountain biking that they talk about flowy trails vs technical trails in addition to grading trails for difficulty.

The trail (particularly ultra) running community is pretty social, and, like orienteering, highly volunteer-based. One way to "meet them half way" (re: @godhun, above) would be to have a presence at races. Info tables at reg, start, and finish; coupons, stickers, event list cards in goody bags; and (my favorite) enthusiastically-staffed aid stations. Folks remember who helped them during a tough race, and post-race time is often a big party. Be at the party. Hint at the gnarliness of O, and how there's a whole other type of shoe to become obsessed about.

Work with the race director / team for all of that (usually pretty informal), and you also get free*, trusted advertising from the RD in event comms (FB, e-mails, websites, etc.) with racers.

* like many things O: "free" other than the (often extensive) volunteer time cost

Advertise on Trail Running Sites and Calendars like ATRA,

put your registration on UltraSignup, make sure the text copy makes sense

ROC has sponsored a 5/10/20/50K race on the first weekend of November for over 20 years. We regularly attract 250+ runners and raise $3000+ which we use to subsidize our local events during the year and pay for some mapping. For many years we gave every runner a copy of the course on an ROC orienteering map to take home. We have attracted a few runners into orienteering and raised the profile of orienteering in our local community. The main benefit has been the steady stream of funds to the club budget.

Another option is to get them in leisure time, not at the weekend. Have a weekly social run on Wednesday evenings that alternates between two of your nice maps. Do two-thirds trail and one-third off trail, or some such, hand out maps and sneak in some navigation tips. There's no fear and some may want to try the real thing.

> get your fastest and fittest orienteers (both genders) to enter a series of trail runs and absolutely smash the regulars.
During the pandemic Fredo and Tove made a splash in the European mountain running scene. I haven't heard if this created any crossover.

>My suggestion - get your fastest and fittest orienteers (both genders) to enter a series of trail runs and absolutely smash the regulars.>

This is a rather outdated suggestion to say the least, at least in Canada.

This is a rather outdated suggestion to say the least, at least in Canada

Gender binarism has been debunked long ago, in Canada and elsewhere the gender is now seen as a spectrum, not limited to just two possibilities.

My suggestion - get your fastest and fittest orienteers (both genders) to enter a series of trail runs and absolutely smash the regulars.

Pretty much what Tove did. Except then she got sucked into skimo and sky running.

Speaking from experience with my interaction with associations, clubs, social gatherings, in the Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania area, I can tell you that the overlap between trail runners and orienteering runners is about 5%. Trail runners ask questions such as "how long is the course" and when you tell them the approximate distance, they will answer "oh, I can do that in less than an hour". Going off-trail is something totally new to a trail runner. Also, many trail runners follow blazed marked trails, streamers, signage. Give them a map and ask to find a lonely rock in the forest, and they will go insane. Bottom line: do not expect much success on getting trail runners to register to an orienteering event.

Trail and ultra distance runner here.

When I first came across orienteering a number of years ago, I remember being very dismissive of it. It seemed like a nice family friendly activity but nothing competitive or to be taken seriously.

When I went to my first event, a 90-minute night score, it was because I canceled a solo backpacking trip and was looking for something else to do. Figured it would be good to learn some compass skills for backpacking. Despite coming out a beat-up mess, what I experienced was 90 minutes of pure joy. I’ve been hooked since.

I don’t speak for all trail runners and ultra runners but orienteering has a marketing problem for this segment. In NE Ohio we have a very large and active trail running community. This has really exploded over the past 10 years or so. The Burning River 100 now draws over a thousand participants across all distances. If the 5% rule holds, which I believe is fair, we should have no problem getting a continuous flow of trail runners to orienteering events just through word of mouth.

What drew me to orienteering was the idea of the physical challenge in addition to the technical skills. Ultra runners in particular are no strangers to suffering to accomplish a personal goal. Like me at the time, they have no idea how badass top orienteers are when racing through the woods and over/around obstacles. We need to “market” this side of orienteering much differently than we would to other groups.

There are a ton of great ideas and insights in the thread above. I’d just add that helping trail runners see orienteering as a competitive, physically challenging sport is the key. Make courses with runnable parts but stick with the formula - don’t bother with “runners courses.” A well made introductory video or two aimed at this segment that makes orienteering look more like a Tough Mudder is where I would start. And I would call it Navigation Racing and make sure orange level courses in particular are well designed with newbie trail runners in mind.

Thanks JBoyer.
Seems like a post to which we should be giving extra credence.

Agreed. This is a very helpful take. Thanks for sharing!

Alright, I'll start destroying everyone at the trail runs and then say my secret is orienteering, then people will come to orienteering because they hate boring road running and want to seek the next level upon trail running. Can someone give me some orienteering brochures to just pop up at a trail event once I make my debut for Manning Park Trail Runners???

Hey Boris,
I run with a group of ultra trail runners every week. A number of them talk about the nav x events out hear. They also do these very barebones orienteering adventures that I would call off the grid orienteering similar to ultr trail race with nav points to hit. One of them in particular loves to just explore crazy areas of parks. I’d say in the trail community your looking for that kind of person who likes to explore areas. They typically like to be out on the trails 1-4 hours. Might be worth starting with a score/short rogain event with controls in unique parts of the park like a great view or a cool waterfall or something. There is an off the grid race like this near Sacramento called the ukabar massacre (might be spelling this wrong) it’s an ultra event that includes orienteering. It attracted a number of good runners because they were able to use it as proof to get into races like Barclays marathon. I think also just providing score o maps once a month that take 2-4 hours to clear using orange or map run f could also be a starting point. Market to the local groups and let them do it on their own time rather than commit to a race initially. I’ll pole the guys I run with and see if I can get any more info.

I think Erin has touched on something - but perhaps this would be more trouble/paperwork than it is worth (?) -- this would be to contact the organizers of the 'big' races that require a pre-qualifying race; and go about getting your race certified or sanctioned as a qualifying race for that one. If done right you may have people lining up to register.

A couple of theories which may or may not work for other places. We get numbers approaching 0.1% of the urban population to our monthly rogaines. They love to NOT join, and we get an extra $5 from the discount foregone. Whether they are trail runners or adventure racers we dont care, they are navigating with a map. I suspect these things contribute:

• Being a team event only one person has to be semi-competent with a map
  
• Inherent coaching (albeit low quality) within teams
  
• Being a score format there are no DNFs
  
• 3 hours long. Within schirminator's sweet spot for length
  
• After work on a weeknight. They are doing other things at the weekend
  
• As a result of the above, close to home. We are fortunate to have steep bushclad terrain around and within the urban area. And various other factors such as a big voluntary track-building and predator control and native tree replanting movement

A couple of theories which may or may not work for other places. We get numbers approaching 0.1% of the urban population to our monthly rogaines. They love to NOT join, and we get an extra $5 from the discount foregone. Whether they are trail runners or adventure racers we dont care, they are navigating with a map. I suspect these things contribute:

• Being a team event only one person has to be semi-competent with a map
  
• Inherent coaching (albeit low quality) within teams
  
• Being a score format there are no DNFs
  
• 3 hours long. Within schirminator's sweet spot for length
  
• After work on a weeknight. They are doing other things at the weekend
  
• As a result of the above, close to home. We are fortunate to have steep bushclad terrain around and within the urban area. And various other factors such as a big voluntary track-building and predator control and native tree replanting movement

A couple of theories which may or may not work for other places. We get numbers approaching 0.1% of the urban population to our monthly rogaines. They love to NOT join, and we get an extra $5 from the discount foregone. Whether they are trail runners or adventure racers we dont care, they are navigating with a map. I suspect these things contribute:

• Being a team event only one person has to be semi-competent with a map
  
• Inherent coaching (albeit low quality) within teams
  
• Being a score format there are no DNFs
  
• 3 hours long. Within schirminator's sweet spot for length
  
• After work on a weeknight. They are doing other things at the weekend
  
• As a result of the above, close to home. We are fortunate to have steep bushclad terrain around and within the urban area. And various other factors such as a big voluntary track-building and predator control and native tree replanting movement
  

Over the years we've mapped all around us to semi-orienteering standards (1:20,000). 10m contours from local authoriries, trails progressively GPS'd by course planners, bush light or dark green. (White forest is counter-intuitive.) Most important, the map is not perfect, just a continuous work in progress.

There are some who see this as a recruiting method for traditional orienteering. IMHO that's misguided. They are all navigating with a map.

Ahhh! Finally! This thread started out asking how can we bring trail runners to orienteering.
Some good suggestions followed.
Now we are getting around to the best question: not how can we bring trail runners to orienteering but how can we bring orienteering to the trail runners and adventure racers.
The gist of the suggestions are to be prepared to adapt the sport to appeal to the market in mind.
That doesn't mean that you don't have orienteering events for the orienteering market but do like many others and have some events that are 'special market oriented'. Use those events to promote the real thing, if you want.
Suncoast Orienteering has not yet gone after the AR market but we probably will next season with one or two adapted AR events - water and foot based navigation.
We are big time into the JROTC market which is huge in Florida. And each year we get a significant number of JROTC parents who want to find out for themselves what their kids are doing. The don't tend to become long term members but they do fatten the event revenue balance sheet while they are there.
Point is: pick your market and "sell the sizzle."