Discussion: photos
in: Raccoongaine (Mar 25, 2018 - Hookstown, PA, US)
Mar 25, 2018 11:21 PM
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Mar 26, 2018 1:23 AM
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#Raccoongaine IX (2018) is now in the history books.
— West PA Orienteering (@wpaorienteering) March 26, 2018
Thank you all that trekked here and found a beautiful sunny day to play in the playground pic.twitter.com/9CMB6aK6p7
Mar 26, 2018 4:22 PM
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Unofficial results on 6-hr #Raccoongaine #Rogaining#Orienteering#AdventureRace#RaccoonCreek state park pic.twitter.com/GG1JMpjtur
— West PA Orienteering (@wpaorienteering) March 26, 2018
Mar 26, 2018 7:27 PM
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Unofficial results for 3-hr #Raccoongaine
— West PA Orienteering (@wpaorienteering) March 26, 2018
Remarkably, the top two spots go to two people, each participating as individual, man and woman, both veteran age group, from Columbus Orienteering Club, same family pic.twitter.com/06r8AHFLLO
Mar 27, 2018 2:04 AM
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The locations of the "mystery" controls not on the map (111,112,113,114), and their respective "mother" controls (105,133,106,128) that had the miniature map indicating where the mystery control was. Some teams didn't realize a control was a "mother" (maybe better marking next). pic.twitter.com/snAw37MbxE
— Raccoongaine (@Raccoongaine) March 27, 2018
Mar 28, 2018 11:09 AM
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#Raccoongaine 2018
— Raccoongaine (@Raccoongaine) March 28, 2018
Then and Now - 4 days apart
Checkpoint 141#Rogaining#Orienteering#AdventureRace pic.twitter.com/rxGYEiGPMz
Mar 28, 2018 11:15 AM
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#Raccoongaine 2018
— Raccoongaine (@Raccoongaine) March 28, 2018
Then and Now - 4 days apart
Checkpoint 149#Rogaining#Orienteering#AdventureRace pic.twitter.com/5BjFn28y4V
Mar 28, 2018 11:23 AM
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#Raccoongaine 2018
— Raccoongaine (@Raccoongaine) March 28, 2018
Then and Now - 4 days apart
Checkpoint 112 ("mystery")#Rogaining#Orienteering#AdventureRace pic.twitter.com/lBXkWxuDkz
Mar 28, 2018 11:28 AM
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#Raccoongaine 2018
— Raccoongaine (@Raccoongaine) March 28, 2018
Then and Now - 4 days apart
Checkpoint 109 - vegetation boundary (evergreen tree grove)#Rogaining#Orienteering#AdventureRace pic.twitter.com/WIliBeTDyn
Mar 28, 2018 11:32 AM
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After pickup of #Raccoongaine controls
— West PA Orienteering (@wpaorienteering) March 28, 2018
Indoor drying rack pic.twitter.com/kD4YGgAbZH
Mar 28, 2018 12:47 PM
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>>> CORRECTION <<<
— Raccoongaine (@Raccoongaine) March 28, 2018
The unofficial result 3-hr #Raccoongaine posted two days ago was incorrect. The correct one is here. pic.twitter.com/VoEOAKMnC7
Mar 29, 2018 11:28 AM
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Some interesting analysis on how the four bonus ("mystery") controls were found (or unfound):
Robert Turanchik, Shin, Chiori, Salty Orienteers, Derek Dawson, SOLID gould family, found mystery control 111 accidentally when going from 104 to 105
Topo the Mountain, Kellogg, found mystery control 111 accidentally from 104 but never punched 105
Robert Turanchik, found mystery control 111 accidentally, maybe thinking it was 105, and then continued to 104
Warren found 105 soon after start, but did not go to 111, 104 until end
Over the Hills, Time Wounds All Heels went from 104 to 105, and then 111
Richard Lee Sparks found the mother 105, continued to 104, never went to the mystery 111
Thunder Road found mystery control 112 on its way to the mother 133
Swearing at Our Bearing, Olga Huber, found the mother 133 but maybe did not realize it was not a mother as they did not go to 112
Fast Compass, Clint Hartle, Black Swamp Boys, Son of a Shangle, Warren, Total Packages, found the mother 106 but either didn't realize there was a mystery or deliberatly did not go to 113
Flazotta, found 114 before 128
Disoriented, Chiorik, Richard Lee Sparks, Frank and Beans, Ralph Lindzon, GHOSLOW, found mother 128 but either didn't realize or deliberatly ignored mystery 114
56 found 105
56 found 111
15 found 133
13 found 112
20 found 106
14 found 113
25 found 128
19 found 114
Robert Turanchik, Shin, Chiori, Salty Orienteers, Derek Dawson, SOLID gould family, found mystery control 111 accidentally when going from 104 to 105
Topo the Mountain, Kellogg, found mystery control 111 accidentally from 104 but never punched 105
Robert Turanchik, found mystery control 111 accidentally, maybe thinking it was 105, and then continued to 104
Warren found 105 soon after start, but did not go to 111, 104 until end
Over the Hills, Time Wounds All Heels went from 104 to 105, and then 111
Richard Lee Sparks found the mother 105, continued to 104, never went to the mystery 111
Thunder Road found mystery control 112 on its way to the mother 133
Swearing at Our Bearing, Olga Huber, found the mother 133 but maybe did not realize it was not a mother as they did not go to 112
Fast Compass, Clint Hartle, Black Swamp Boys, Son of a Shangle, Warren, Total Packages, found the mother 106 but either didn't realize there was a mystery or deliberatly did not go to 113
Flazotta, found 114 before 128
Disoriented, Chiorik, Richard Lee Sparks, Frank and Beans, Ralph Lindzon, GHOSLOW, found mother 128 but either didn't realize or deliberatly ignored mystery 114
56 found 105
56 found 111
15 found 133
13 found 112
20 found 106
14 found 113
25 found 128
19 found 114
Mar 29, 2018 1:19 PM
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"Disoriented, Chiorik, Richard Lee Sparks, Frank and Beans, Ralph Lindzon, GHOSLOW, found mother 128 but either didn't realize or deliberatly ignored mystery 114"
I looked down at the control to check the code for 128 and punched, without noticing anything to indicate that it was a mother control. I was at 128 early in the event and certainly would have looked for 114 if I'd known about it.
I looked down at the control to check the code for 128 and punched, without noticing anything to indicate that it was a mother control. I was at 128 early in the event and certainly would have looked for 114 if I'd known about it.
Mar 29, 2018 3:05 PM
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Given the moderately intense green surrounding 114, it's possible that some of those teams just decided that the briars (and some uphill) weren't worth it - and thus skipped it on purpose. (Not a great score-optimizing strategy, but possibly a blood-saving one.)
Mar 29, 2018 9:43 PM
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Interesting leg time going from "mother" to "mystery" control in #Raccoongaine 2018 rogaining event at #RaccoonCreek state park
— Raccoongaine (@Raccoongaine) March 29, 2018
112 was visible directly from its mother control
Amazing that Flazotta found mystery 114 first: it was buried in green
(*) indicates reverse direction pic.twitter.com/JHlOZBiMQ5
Mar 29, 2018 10:04 PM
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The only way to recognize that 128 was a "mother" control of a "mystery" control, was by noticing the rope string, the miniature map, and the pen marker. Given that several people did not identify a "mother" control (Olga on 133->112), and the fact that participants are focused on the SportIdent electronic control box, we will next time design and apply some kind of visual signage directly on the SI control box to indicate it as being a "mother" control.
Apr 1, 2018 10:41 PM
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Hasn't this been an issue for years? I wonder how many I have missed over the years or only knew about because another orienteerer saw me miss it.
I also think they are silly.
I also think they are silly.
Apr 2, 2018 2:38 AM
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After an average of twelve minutes per leg, there’s not three seconds to look for a supplemental map?
Apr 2, 2018 3:24 AM
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Easy to do if you know to do it and you can make it part of the routine in going to controls, like checking the control code. Even a couple of seconds would be enough. But first you have to be aware to look (the mother control I recall from a couple of years ago was very obviously a mother control without having to search because the map was attached on the tree in the direct line of sight, like right above the control) and then training yourself to depart from normal control punching routine.
Apr 2, 2018 5:15 PM
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if you know to do it
I thought the mother-child was in place for at least the last five years, so it's not a mystery?
Regarding the silliness...with a four-day sellout, the market suggests it's not too silly.
I thought the mother-child was in place for at least the last five years, so it's not a mystery?
Regarding the silliness...with a four-day sellout, the market suggests it's not too silly.
Apr 2, 2018 6:01 PM
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It may not be a mystery, but even if you do the Raccoongaine every year, it can be pretty hard to make looking for a supplementary map part of your "routine" at a control. This is particularly true if you go to thirty or forty other orienteering events a year, and the Raccoongaine is the only one with this additional complicating factor.
Apr 2, 2018 11:40 PM
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Perhaps the mother controls could be indicated by changing the control number from "120" to "120-MOTHER". It would only take a sticker over the number on the unit. Might help...
...and I love going to events with unique twists...
...and I love going to events with unique twists...
Apr 3, 2018 11:32 AM
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Selling out has nothing to do with mystery controls and everything to do with the promotion of the event. There are other Rogaines that have better maps, are better organized, have better food and draw fewer people because they don't have an Alexis.
The mother/mystery adds in luck. They are better than in the past where you could just wander around the start and find a few.
The mother/mystery adds in luck. They are better than in the past where you could just wander around the start and find a few.
Apr 3, 2018 12:20 PM
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Is luck an actual problem at Raccoongaine or a theoretical problem? When have the #2 seeds lucked their way into a win?
Apr 3, 2018 4:19 PM
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Good, simple suggested solution by dlevine. Even just 120-M (perhaps with M in red or use left-over M scrabble tiles - see previous thread) should do the trick.
I like the mother/mystery controls - one reason it's disappointing to have gone to a mother control without realizing it. I did get to one of the other mother/mystery controls.
I like the mother/mystery controls - one reason it's disappointing to have gone to a mother control without realizing it. I did get to one of the other mother/mystery controls.
Apr 3, 2018 4:21 PM
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interesting conversations here...
in 2019, the "mother" electronic control SI punch box will have background signage, probably in zebra white-and-black diagonal stripes, to better indicate that it is different, and that the participant should take note of it. And yes, some text in english language such as "MOTHER" would help.
This year the mystery controls were all in close proximity to the mother control, some so close that on the master map, the circles of the two actually intersect (scale 1:15000). One mystery control was visible to the eye while standing next to the mother control. While a pen (writing instrument) was provided at the mother control, to be used to mark the participant's map, it was not necessary, as the mystery control was close enough and simple enough to reach that one could make this a mini Memory-O leg.
Yes, other rogaines have much better maps (CNYO, Ellicottville by BFL-O, Python by NEOOC). So why did the event sell out it's 150 spots in just four days? obviously not because we had an outstanding map...
btw, my opinion on why it got popular:
1) sweet spot on the calendar, being just before busy spring season;
2) proximity to a city
in 2019, the "mother" electronic control SI punch box will have background signage, probably in zebra white-and-black diagonal stripes, to better indicate that it is different, and that the participant should take note of it. And yes, some text in english language such as "MOTHER" would help.
This year the mystery controls were all in close proximity to the mother control, some so close that on the master map, the circles of the two actually intersect (scale 1:15000). One mystery control was visible to the eye while standing next to the mother control. While a pen (writing instrument) was provided at the mother control, to be used to mark the participant's map, it was not necessary, as the mystery control was close enough and simple enough to reach that one could make this a mini Memory-O leg.
Yes, other rogaines have much better maps (CNYO, Ellicottville by BFL-O, Python by NEOOC). So why did the event sell out it's 150 spots in just four days? obviously not because we had an outstanding map...
btw, my opinion on why it got popular:
1) sweet spot on the calendar, being just before busy spring season;
2) proximity to a city
Apr 3, 2018 11:12 PM
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I think Raccoongaine hits its limit so fast for a few reasons;
1) I agree its in a sweet spot on the calendar which encourages people to travel to get in a race (having attended from MI the last 2 years).
2) I think setting the cap forces people to sign up early and not waffle. This also gets it on the calendar and keeps people from having something pop up.
3) Being hosted by an O-club, its half as expensive as any similar event put on by a private, encouraging non-die hards to shell out a few bucks to give it a try. (no idea if this is accurate, just a perception)
As a transplant to WPOC, I am curious of the metrics on how many people return year after year, how far people travel, if attendees are new to orienteering or regularly attend O meets, how often people do 3hr one year and jump to 6 hr the next etc. [Who knows if this exists] It seems to me that WPOC regular O meets have rather light attendance (maybe 40 people on average?) and AR has basically floundered in the area (down to one local AR this year + a not too far away event by a Philadelphia company), so how come so much attendance at this one event? Don't get me wrong, I'd love that to translate to more local nav races, of any type, with great attendance.
just my 2 cents
1) I agree its in a sweet spot on the calendar which encourages people to travel to get in a race (having attended from MI the last 2 years).
2) I think setting the cap forces people to sign up early and not waffle. This also gets it on the calendar and keeps people from having something pop up.
3) Being hosted by an O-club, its half as expensive as any similar event put on by a private, encouraging non-die hards to shell out a few bucks to give it a try. (no idea if this is accurate, just a perception)
As a transplant to WPOC, I am curious of the metrics on how many people return year after year, how far people travel, if attendees are new to orienteering or regularly attend O meets, how often people do 3hr one year and jump to 6 hr the next etc. [Who knows if this exists] It seems to me that WPOC regular O meets have rather light attendance (maybe 40 people on average?) and AR has basically floundered in the area (down to one local AR this year + a not too far away event by a Philadelphia company), so how come so much attendance at this one event? Don't get me wrong, I'd love that to translate to more local nav races, of any type, with great attendance.
just my 2 cents
Apr 4, 2018 6:48 PM
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> how many people return year after year
high return rate
> how far people travel,
in the first 5 years, it was mostly a local-regional event, with the Norhteast Ohio orienteers being the only "foreigners". It was frequented by mostly hikers or social friends and family groups that saw it as a "hike with some fun and purpose". The distribution between 3-hr and 6-hr people was about the same. In the past 4 years, with the 3 or 4 car loads of Michiganers and others, it seems there are more "foreigners". The distribution between 3-hr and 6-hr people count is now much more slanted towards the 6-hr event.. Less hiker types and more adventure racer types.
> how often people do 3hr one year and jump to 6 hr the next
rarely. It seems that native patterns don't change
> regular O meets have rather light attendance
very true, specially in remote areas far from the city. Suburban locations are well attended, OTOH. My theory goes that people have busy lives, and spending 25%-40% of your day on an O-meet is ok, while spending 50%-70% of your day on an O-meet is not ok.
> AR has basically floundered in the area
Grassroots Racing was local, but then attendance went from 100 to 11. Why? we are still perplexed, but talking to many of the old-timers, i was getting responses that people found alternatives, got booked into other events early on, or were simply DIY (do it yourself). For example, some folks that were constant adventure racers are now into triathlons. Others would say "I can do a bike ride in the woods anytime" (DIY). It happened to us too, btw, when we replicated the Raccoongaine event in Mingo Creek county park and called the event Mingogaine and less than 20 people showed up (there was no pre-registration).
btw, food for thought: a local outdoor club, despite their close affinity to what WPOC does, has very few of its members attending WPOC events, if any at all. That is a fact, despite strong marketing and presence in social media and email notification. Talking to some folks at the REI retail store, in charge of community involvement and events, explained to me that folks feel "clubby" and stick to only the events that their local circle or club has for them. Finding a person that can break the walls and barriers and find adherents to follow is rare.
Others have created an urban mini-rogaine using phone texting to communicate that a checkpoint has been found, and I've heard that they are going to try that again this spring (I am volunteering).
high return rate
> how far people travel,
in the first 5 years, it was mostly a local-regional event, with the Norhteast Ohio orienteers being the only "foreigners". It was frequented by mostly hikers or social friends and family groups that saw it as a "hike with some fun and purpose". The distribution between 3-hr and 6-hr people was about the same. In the past 4 years, with the 3 or 4 car loads of Michiganers and others, it seems there are more "foreigners". The distribution between 3-hr and 6-hr people count is now much more slanted towards the 6-hr event.. Less hiker types and more adventure racer types.
> how often people do 3hr one year and jump to 6 hr the next
rarely. It seems that native patterns don't change
> regular O meets have rather light attendance
very true, specially in remote areas far from the city. Suburban locations are well attended, OTOH. My theory goes that people have busy lives, and spending 25%-40% of your day on an O-meet is ok, while spending 50%-70% of your day on an O-meet is not ok.
> AR has basically floundered in the area
Grassroots Racing was local, but then attendance went from 100 to 11. Why? we are still perplexed, but talking to many of the old-timers, i was getting responses that people found alternatives, got booked into other events early on, or were simply DIY (do it yourself). For example, some folks that were constant adventure racers are now into triathlons. Others would say "I can do a bike ride in the woods anytime" (DIY). It happened to us too, btw, when we replicated the Raccoongaine event in Mingo Creek county park and called the event Mingogaine and less than 20 people showed up (there was no pre-registration).
btw, food for thought: a local outdoor club, despite their close affinity to what WPOC does, has very few of its members attending WPOC events, if any at all. That is a fact, despite strong marketing and presence in social media and email notification. Talking to some folks at the REI retail store, in charge of community involvement and events, explained to me that folks feel "clubby" and stick to only the events that their local circle or club has for them. Finding a person that can break the walls and barriers and find adherents to follow is rare.
Others have created an urban mini-rogaine using phone texting to communicate that a checkpoint has been found, and I've heard that they are going to try that again this spring (I am volunteering).
This discussion thread is closed.