Discussion: 2007 US Sprint and US Individual Championships

The 2007 US Sprint and US Individual Championships Web Site is open. The three days of orienteering in Prince William Forest National Park are all A-Meet days. You can register on-line at the web site. The schedule is as follows:

November 2 - US Sprint Championships
November 3 - Day 1 US Individual Championships
November 4 - Day 2 US Individual Championships

Day 1 of the US Individual Championships is a World Ranking Event (WRE) day for elite competition classes. Note that WRE courses will be a little longer on that day in conformance with International Orienteering Federation standard lengths. New maps will be used for all 3 days.

As an added bonus, come help QOC celebrate 40 years of orienteering at the Museum of the Marine Corps just outside of the park on November 3rd. The club is offering US Champs commemorative gear bags to help you remember the events.

The event web site will be updated with additional information as we get closer to the event. Register for the races before October 14th for the lowest price.

I appreciate your concern for Latin speakers here :)

Ahem,... Yes, thanks. That old place holder link had been discovered earlier today and corrected.

And the pretty picture of a cup of coffee was deleted. :-(
I thought all of the registrants were going to get free coffee.

I just want to remind everyone that late fees for the US Sprint Championship and the US Individual Championship meet go into effect starting October 14th. Rates go up again on October 28th.

The following are the course statistics for the US Champs. They are subject to change.

Sprint Championship Courses

Model/Warm-up 1:5,000 7 controls Self-Served
White 1:5,000 1.74km 22.5m climb 13 controls 12-15 min winning time
Yellow 1:5,000 1.86km 32.5m climb 13 controls 12-15 min winning time
Orange 1:5,000 1.76km 55m climb 14 controls 12-15 min winning time
Brown 1:5,000 2.07km 55m climb 16 controls 12-15 min winning time
Green 1:5,000 2.5km 87.5m climb 17 controls 12-15 min winning time
Red 1:5,000 2.68km 95m climb 18 controls 12-15 min winning time
Blue 1:5,000 2.89km 100m climb 18 controls 12-15 min winning time

US Individual Championship Courses Day 1

Model 1:10k/1:15k 14 controls Self-served (Note that the model is open 11/2)
White 1:10,000 2.1km 160m climb 9 controls 25-30 min winning time
Yellow 1:10,000 3.4km 145m climb 11 controls 35-40 min winning time
Orange 1:10,000 4.5km 140m climb 11 controls 50-55 min winning time
Brown X 1:10,000 4.2km 170m climb 9 controls 45-50 min winning time
Brown Y 1:10,000 4.0km 155m climb 9 controls 45-50 min winning time
Green X 1:10,000 5.0km 200m climb 12 controls 50-55 min winning time
Green Y 1:10,000 5.2km 200m climb 12 controls 50-55 min winning time
Red X 1:15,000 7.9km 265m climb 13 controls 60-65 min winning time
Red Y (WRE) 1:15,000 9.2km 310m climb 16 controls 70-80 min winning time
Blue (WRE) 1:15,000 12.9km 470m climb 20 controls 90-100 min winning time

US Individual Championship Courses Day 2

White 1:10,000 2.2km 65m climb 10 controls 25-30 min winning time
Yellow 1:10,000 3.1km 75m climb 12 controls 35-40 min winning time
Orange 1:10,000 4.6km 145m climb 12 controls 50-55 min winning time
Brown X 1:10,000 4.5km 158m climb 8 controls 45-50 min winning time
Brown Y 1:10,000 4.1km 138m climb 7 controls 45-50 min winning time
Green X 1:10,000 5.9km ??m climb 15 controls 50-55 min winning time
Green Y 1:10,000 5.8km ??m climb 13 controls 50-55 min winning time
Red X 1:15,000 7.6km 255m climb 13 controls 60-65 min winning time
Red Y 1:15,000 7.4km ??m climb 16 controls 60-65 min win time
Blue 1:15,000 11.1km 505m climb 21 controls 75-80 min win time

There are lots of X and Y courses. Who runs which?

Thanks for the info, Nadim!

George, for a more detailed listing of which competitive classes are on which courses, Ken has just posted a page on the meet web site. We based the number of courses on attendance and competitive class breakouts at the 2002 US Championships which QOC hosted. Sorry that we couldn't post this earlier.

I am discouraged that you have reverted to the old separation of M60 from the M50/55 classes. I thought this had been overcome in the last several years. Please reconsider!

Sprint courses are ~20% too long and hilly for posted winning times. Winning times would be around 18 minutes.

Without getting into precise details or predictions about the full range of courses and admitting that I was getting pretty familiar with the terrain during the vetting process, I am absolutely certain that the winning time for the Blue sprint course will be significantly less than 18 minutes.

Winning times are dependant on so many factors, foremost of which is the terrain and the woods/vegetation. What seems too long for some parts of the country is appropriate in others...

I'd trust the organizers who have been in the actual woods preparing for these courses and winning times...!

Jon, although I referenced to all sprint courses in general, a confirmation of the top NA sprinter is reassuring :) I just registered my daughter and myself - we are looking forward to competing and enjoying courses all days. QOC will put a memorable event - that's for sure!

I find it interesting that M45 is on the longer red (9.2km, 300m climb), whereas the younger M35 & M40 classes are on a shorter red (particularly Saturday's course). It doesn't matter to me, it just seems the logical classes for the longer course would be the younger ones.

What's always struck me as strange is that the women run the "Y" course while most of the men run "X". That nominclature seems completely backwards.

I couldn't agree more. Who came up with that?

It drives Nancy crazy. It's just a historical accident. 20 years ago, if there were two courses they were most often called A and B. The switch to X and Y came about to get rid of the impression that one was "better" than the other. For a while, it was pretty random what classes were on each course, typically assigned after most of the registrations had come in, trying to balance the numbers between the two courses. Eventually it started to settle into a pattern, helped by a recommendation list that I think Bill Cusworth came up with. And as the class structure mutated, some classes got shuffled around on an ad hoc basis, until we got what is in common use today, where (on Green), the men are on X and the women on Y.

I think.

This question perplexed me so much that I had to go back through my map books. It seems that most US meets I have attended and run Red or Green courses seem to have put the male classes on the Y course. HVO meets were the most noteworthy exception. (Is there something in their water?) Now is Quantico doing the same switcheroo? Say it ain't so. I will probably pick up the wrong map!
As to expected winning times you can be pretty sure that the winning time in the Sprint will be a bit longer with Jon Torrance vetting instead of competing.

X is better than Y - everybody knows that.

Eddie, classically:
Y=A*X+B
kinda prompts thinking that actually Y is superior to X but, nevertheless, would not survive without :)

X is the independent variable.

I sense colliding analogies in this discussion.

The chromosomal (sp?) analogy is what I first thought of, too. But isn't the actual assignment of courses such that both sexes run each course?

If X and Y are confusing, and A is better than B, the next logical option is clearly...I and J.

In coursesetting discussions, I've used long and short terminology (Short Green/Long Green or Red Short/Red Long, for example), but that has its own issues of confusion.

aren't i and j immaginary numbers?

But isn't the actual assignment of courses such that both sexes run each course?

Green these days is often all men on GreenX and all women on GreenY.

As a biologist, I always think of chromosomes when I see X and Y, and the current system is backwards:)

Any reason we can't start using Green-F and Green-M? The only issue I see (for this event) is the M60s would have to realize that they are on the female course, or be moved back to the M course.

M60s tried to get with the men but were denied by QOC.

Sorry it's taken me a while to respond. There's a lot of planning still going on. The reason for having X and Y separations within course colors stems from anticipated event participation levels. When last QOC hosted the US Individual Championships in 2002, our records showed 493 competitor participants. USOF defines classes along ages and gives the following guidance:

"Recommended splits for Red and Green when participation warrants it: Red X( M-20,M35+,M40+), Red Y(F-21+,M45+), Green X(M-18,M50+,M55+), Green Y(F-20,F35+,M60+,F40+,F45+,F50+,F55+)."

Though most of the USOF Rules were followed as closely as possible, some IOF rules were applicable for other parts of the weekend; the WRE complicated things. We recognized the above from USOF as only guidance when planning; QOC still had to make a decision on what courses to offer and design and what classes should run them. To do so, I looked at the distribution of participants by USOF class in the 2002 Championships, also hosted by QOC. This seemed best since it recorded people who were willing to travel to the area. There were only some small changes in classes since 2002. Sticking just to the range of classes raised in this discussion so far, the club records for 2002 showed:

M-20 13 F-20 6
M-21+ 44 F-21+ 16
M35+ 17 F35+ 8
M40+ 26 F40+ 11
M45+ 33 F45+ 13
M50+ 24 F50+ 14
M55+ 23 F55+ 7
M60+ 16 F60+ 10
M65+ 8 F65+ 3
M70+ 7 F70+ 2

To make the weekend more attractive for people, we added another competition day (in comparison to 2002) with the Sprint Championships. We also planned some extra activities such as the Fab 40 Celebration which I hope you all decide to come to. For planning purposes for 2007, it made sense to QOC to still project the same number of overall participants with the same distribution in these classes. Factoring-in sunrise to sunset constraints (Daylight Savings Time ends during the competition weekend), morning vetting, event site setup and clean-up, separation of the WRE races, a 3 hour legal finish time, awards, etc..., we were left with a start window of 4.5 hours or 270 minutes for 493 projected participants. Since the WRE could have drawn more people (increasing variability) and should have some distinction, 1.5 hours is being set aside for what is only projected to be about 60 participants (M-21+, F-21+). This really leaves only 3 hours (180 minutes) for 433 participants or an average of 2.4 competitors starting per minute (don't be a 0.4 competitor--go all the way!). We still had to try to leave some openings in the schedules for late arrivers on the non-WRE courses and other potential for delays too. Using these projections, we definitely felt a need for X and Y breakouts within color courses.

QOC had only the rules and the expected participation distribution to go by. Knowing there had been some disagreements with class breakouts in the past but not knowing of any actual directives made by USOF on this, I aimed to be neutral as possible and use the above USOF guidance which was available. I do see natural motivation in wanting some classes to be on the same course for comparison purposes but I think that where the division line falls for a championship, should be more about the overall fairness of the courses for a competitive class than other rankings. It's about spreading-out the orienteers to minimize following. George asked me to look at M50+/M55+ (currently Green X) and M60+ (currently Green Y) groups. Following the USOF guidance, there would be 81 projected people on Green X and 73 on Green Y. If we were to have M60+ run Green X instead of Green Y, we'd have thrown 16 more projected people onto the course making the split Green X=97 and Green Y=57. I do concede that all the other men on Green are on Green X and that naturally men may want to be compared to other men. Contrary to this, M45+ running Red Y are usually the only men on Red Y. If I start changing this at the US Champs for Green, then there would be requests to do the same for Red and the load on more courses would be lopsided. The root cause of this problem seems to be that men orienteers tend to outnumber women orienteers.

To address Clinton's question about why M45+ runs the longer race at the US Championships, it again partly goes back to the USOF guidance and partly the distribution. However, another factor considered was that M45+ has often beaten or at least been comparable to M40+ in head-to-head A-Meet competitions. The two classes were comparable at the recent Boulder Dash when Peter Gagarin ran down a few classes in M45+ and Martin Ward ran M40+; Martin won and Peter got second on the course. I'm not positive if Joe and Spike ran the same course but it appeared to occur again at the Surebridge Challenge with Joe Brautigam finishing ahead of Michael Eglinski in M45+ and M40+ respectively.

Right now, we're getting close to the events and we have over about 350 people already registered (some aren't on the web). The course setters and vetters have done their parts, printing arrangements have begun and lots of other logistical plans have been made. I appreciate the discussion here and if we ever do it again I would look at other possibilities. However, as Meet Director, I plan to leave the classes and courses for the US Championships as they have been planned. In the future, I suggest that better ways to arrange the distribution could be worked out, agreed to and codified through USOF. This would make future Meet Director's lives a lot easier. There's a board meeting starting on Saturday, November 3 at 2:30pm at the meet headquarters hotel for the US Championships.

Swampfox once commented that having more than one orienteering race to choose from on the same day is a good thing. It shows the growth of the sport and that's part of what's happening here. We're going to have a lot of growth related things to work out in the future. I hope you enjoy the upcoming weekend!

Thanks all,
Nadim Ahmed
QOC, US Championships Meet Director

Today is October 12th. Late fees for the US Sprint Championship and the US Individual Championship meet go into effect starting October 14th. It's $10 extra per day of competition. Rates go up again on October 28th.

By the way, I've always thought the X and Y thing was backwards too.

eddie wrote: "aren't i and j immaginary numbers?"

Maybe in your analogy they're imaginary, but in mine, they're integers.

Nadim's examination of M40 and M45 winning times makes an excellent case for getting rid of ALL age group distinctions on Red. Of course, that's a completely different discussion and one that's been argued on this forum many times, but there's just no data to support the idea that in the USA 5-year age groups are separating on quality - at least among medalists.

The analysis also applies to the M50-55-60 grouping where frequently the 60s are the strongest group. So it will be fun to only have to run against the women, more the pity for them. And some wonder why there are few women in the sport with this kind of male biasing.

For planning purposes for 2007, it made sense to QOC to still project the same number of overall participants with the same distribution in these classes.

The only thing I see wrong with this is that you forgot to add 5 years to the 2002 age distribution when applying it to 2007. It's mostly all the same people today that it was then.

US Championships registration is approaching 550 people now and we're less than a week away. Here are a few announcements. Please watch the News page on our web site for other updates:

* Please plan on carpooling as much as you can on Saturday and Sunday. Parking areas on Saturday will be very limited. If weather conditions are wet, we will not be allowed to park in one of the designated areas. Overflow parking will be at the field designated for classic model parking and on the Mawavi Road but you should follow the directions of our parking crew. If directed to an overflow area, you will have a walk along the road to get to Camp 5--this walk can take you 5-15 minutes and short cutting into the competition area will not be allowed. Look for further updates on the meet web site under the News page.

* Start Times are posted for all days except for WRE participants. WRE start times will be posted later and will be picked by drawing. Please plan on being to your start on time. Remember that traffic slowdowns are common on I-95. If coming from the north through Baltimore, there is construction causing delays just north of that city. WRE start times cannot be adjusted. Because of the volume of participants, others missing their start time could have to wait a long time until an open slot is available.

* There will be food concessions on Saturday in Camp 5. The USOF Juniors will sell hamburgers, hot dogs, sausages, chips and drinks. There will not be food concessions on Friday or Sunday.

Registration goes up another $10 per day ($5 additional for the Sprint) at midnight tonight.

I found 2.5m contour intervals for the 1:5000 Sprint maps, but did not find contour intervals for the Sat & Sun maps. All 5m, I presume?

Yes, 5m.

WRE registration will close late Tuesday evening at midnight. People may still register for other courses up to the day of the meet but late fees are applicable. We expect to have WRE start times posted by no later than Thursday. WRE Start times will be posted on-site at packet pickup as well.

On the recently updated Map and Course Notes page on the US Champs site, it states the Sprint maps are 1:5000 / 2.5 m contours in paragraph 2, but in the last paragraph at the bottom of the page it says 1:5000 / 5 m contours and that they are 11 x 14 inches! That seems huge for a sprint map.

I don't know why there is a misprint at the bottom of the page. My Course Notes are correct.

Here are the stats for the Sprint Map:

1:5000

2.5 meter contours

200 meter meridian line spacing

The maps are 11 x 14, BUT the actual footprint of the map would have easily fit on an 8.5 x 11 page. Nevertheless, the 11 x 14 size was needed to include the map legend, map credits, map title, and control descriptions--they all take up the rest of the space.

BTW, Kathleen and Greg Lennon did an absolute fantastic job on the final map layout, IMHO

Janet--thanks for pointing out the inconsistency on the website. We've already corrected the misprint.

I can't recall ever being assigned to green Y. It's unfortunate that the M60's are separated from M50 & 55's. Still, sorry not to be able to run in the Va woods. I've a long hx of visiting there for Nov O.

Wow!

Fantastic weather forecast for VA:
Highs near 60; lows near 40.
Dry and sunny.

Uhh, Rick, I'm not sure what forecast you're looking at but the one I saw called for upper 50's. Still very nice though!

From the web site, "By early November, the leaves will have fallen, making visibility in Prince William Forest Park at its best."

Well, looking out my window in DVOA land, which I always figured was one week ahead of QOC land, the leaves are not only still on the trees, they are almost all green, with only a hint of color started. Any reports from Prince William Forest?

Oops - I got it mixed with St. Louis weather. Yes, highs near 60 - even better for running! I changed it. Bit cool in the cabins.

Visibility - anything that slows down the real speed in M55 is to my benefit (I hope:)).

I haven't been in the forest myself in a little while. The second hand accounts I've heard and the evidence of my eyes in other forests around DC is that leaves have begun to drop and in-the-woods visibility is therefore rising but unlikely to be quite as good come the weekend as we believed would be the case when that phrase in the map notes was written.

On Sunday I orientered in a regional park in Williamsburg VA and since then I have been looking for my golf balls in the woods lining a couple of Williamsburg golf courses.
The leaves here are still thick on the trees. The good news is many have changed colo(u)r. The bad news is many leaves now resemble the orange of an orienteering control flag.
This coming weekend the best way to spot a flag may be to look for some of the 530 other orienteers standing around plotting their route to their next control.

I concur; the trees around here are mostly still green, with a smattering of color, and are still mostly clinging to the branches. Just another challenge to deal with.
Weather forecast looks great for running.

There is always that blue stripe on the control bags.

Time to wear orange Halloween O' suits. Besides multiple controls, some will be moving.

Gord: I envy your training - come down early and golf! Soak up the warmth.

The maps are 11 x 14, BUT the actual footprint of the map would have easily fit on an 8.5 x 11 page. Nevertheless, the 11 x 14 size was needed to include the map legend, map credits, map title, and control descriptions--they all take up the rest of the space.

Not to pick nits, because everybody runs with the same map so there's nothing unfair about it but... The ISSOM spec recommends leaving all that extra crap off of sprint maps so you have a nice little sheet of paper that can be handled easier at sprint speed.

ISSOM recommends leaving off control descriptions?

On a quick glance, I didn't notice that they recommend leaving off control descriptions (though I have no issues with this as long as they are available separately).

However, Paragraph 3.4 of the 2007 ISSOM does state:

The map format should not exceed DINA4.

(note that it's "should" rather than "must")

Regarding the leaves, a week ago they were still on. At least around Park Headquarters, the area had more color than trees around Washington D.C.; perhaps this was because it's warmer near the city. We have had two nights with some frost but this is probably not going to drop enough leaves as we had hoped for by the time of the event. Our course setters reported that winds this past Sunday and Monday were dropping a few more trees and branches in an audible way--as warned, there may be some unmapped rootstocks. It had been very dry here. This had weakened trees. The 4 days of rain last week helped a lot be we are still below average.

The map format should not exceed DIN A4.

Wasn't the Denmark WOC Sprint Final map bigger than A4? (Using that link, click right to see the rest).

A4 is 210 × 297mm. Using primitive "hold-a-ruler-to-the-screen" technique and scaling off 6mm control circles, the scanned part of that WOC map is about (about!) 240 x 366mm. (Anyone have one they can measure?)

I'm not really taking a position, just pointing out that maps bigger than A4 have been used.

WRE start times have been posted along with all other start times. Please carpool and be on time to your start.