Discussion: Condes Question - "forked" courses

I am trying to design a course in Condes where competitors can choose to visit one of two controls for say the 5th control on the course. So everyone must do 1-2-3-4 and then everyone can chose either 5a or 5b and then they must all do 6-7-8-...

I would like the controls to be numbered as above or, both 5a and 5b could be numbered 5.

Is there a way to get Condes to do this?

If I use a relay fork, and then want to show both forks, Condes only seems to want to display control codes and not which control on the course it is.

The only work-around I can think of is to make the two forked controls "random order" controls and draw in the lines between controls myself and put in text characters for the control numbers. Then the controls before the "fork" are 1-2-3-4 but it starts up at 7-8-9- after the fork and not 6. I could probably live with this if necessary, but wondered if anyone had a better idea.

I usually do the map printing from OCAD. I export three courses: An A course, a B course, and an AB course (for the clue sheet). I combine the B fork with the A course, delete both clue sheets, and import the AB clue sheet (with edited numbers like 5A, 5B, etc).

You might be able to use geco or some other program for SportIdent. I create courses in OE with either the AB option, which always produces a mispunch, or I delete the forked controls and check them manually. There might be an elegant way to do it, but I don't know it.

Or you could create an "everything" course and use OEScore (eliminating all mispunches), but then manually verify a correct order.

I don't use Condes, but assume that like in Purple Pen you can create OCAD files for each of your courses. These files are really just overlays sitting on the original OCAD map file, but on them you can then draw your extra fork control circle, lines and numbers, then export a print file.

Use OCAD or Open Mapper top draw the course. Unsure how to create the control descr.

So basically the answer is don't do it in Condes. Bummer. For various reasons I sort of need to stick to Condes.

As for OE, that's easy. Do the controls for one of the forkings and include the control code of the other forking as a replacement control so that either code is accepted but you have to have at least one of them.

It's kinda fussy, but (I learned from Mike Minium) that you can edit the clue sheets exported from Condes in OCAD. Not just the letters, but also the grid. That way you avoid renumbering. It's all about selecting the correct items and not bumping stuff accidently.

It's probably easier to just renumber column A, as I suggested above, but you could also combine the top part of an A-only course and the bottom part of a B-only course to create a correctly-numbered clue sheet. If you have more than one fork, I'd probably just renumber manually.

This is how you (manually) add the "A" and "B" parts, but you might have to move the text box to recenter it in the column.

To be clear, I create in Condes and do exports of the courses in OCAD format, then edit and print from OCAD. Something like the AB course is what you'll use for the xml import to the scoring software.

If the control descriptions are the same for the two controls, does CONDES let you draw in some arbitrary extra stuff (like titles and such) so that you can draw the course with one control, and have the other circle and two lines be drawn in by hand? Depending on how far apart they are, you might be able to place the number between the circles, or you may need to add an extra number.

It's all about selecting the correct items and not bumping stuff accidently.

Lock the symbols that you don't want to disturb?

I just created, in Condes, a simple A-B fork where I had the "course" go 1-2A-2B-3 (except it was numbered 1-2-3-4). Then I toggled off the 2A-2B (2-3) connection line. Then I drew in the missing 1-2B (1-3) and 2A-3 (2-4) connection lines with a boundary line. I think I could have changed the width of the boundary line to make it like a connection line.

This would still require editing the clue sheet in OCAD to correct the numbering.

I just think it's so much easier to export to OCAD and handle it there. But again, having the xml export from Condes for OE or some other scoring software is the real advantage, although for goats it's probably not a really big deal, since it's so easy to enter just one or two courses anyway.

Lock the symbols that you don't want to disturb?

You could, although I rarely lock symbols in OCAD. I'm not nearly as proficient in "0CAD" as you. My point was more about just making sure you select exactly what you want. I use "undo" a lot when I'm taking apart and reassembling the grid of the clue sheet. Condes allows some simple modifications to the clue sheet to help it fit the page, but it's not as versatile as just editing the clue sheet manually in OCAD so you can put blocks of it all around the course area of the map. This is really nice for master maps to keep them on a smaller piece of paper.

And to be clear, again, this is what I'm saying:

Open the "B" file in OCAD. Using Sandy's numbers: Delete the Start to circle 4. Delete circle 6 to the finish. This leaves circle 5 and two connection lines. Edit the 5 to 5B. {Optional: delete the top of the clue sheet, so it starts with the row "5". Edit the column A to read 5B. } "Save As" something convenient.

Open the "A" file in OCAD. {Optional: Delete the bottom of the clue sheet so the last row is now "5". Change column A to read 5A}. Import the "new" B-file (not using the mouse, but just the regular coordinates. The course should now have a fork with both 5A and 5B showing.{Optional: reassemble the clue sheet top and bottom so the the "center" of it reads "5A" then "5B". "Save as" something convenient.

Finally {Only if you haven't done the optional parts.} Open the AB file. Delete everything but the clue sheet. Change 5 to 5A, 6 to 5B, 7 to 6, and so on. This is fussy, but less so than reassembling the two clue sheets. Import this into the file that has the course with A and B forks.

{Edit: Don't forget to edit the course length in the clue sheet to the "correct" value.}

When I said "lock", I meant what's actually called "protect" (in case that wasn't clear). For example, you can protect the grid lines so that you don't accidentally select them when you're clicking. Makes life a lot easier.

The relay fork option would be ideal if Condes provided the option of labelling controls with the control number rather than the control code in the "all variations" view, as the control description appears to be as Sandy requires it (although two instances of control 5, rather than 5a and 5b).

I tried exporting the "all variations" course as an OCAD file with the idea of relabelling the control codes as control numbers, but no joy, seems to me to be a bug in Condes (query logged) - anyone else had any luck with it?

In Condes, random order controls are considered to be mandatory, rather than optional, hence the numbering problem.

Have you tried posting on the CONDES forum? http://www.condes.net/phorum/list.php?1
Finn is very good at answering questions.

Yes, waiting for a response.

@Sandy DaveR's advice is good. Alternately...

Create the course with one of the #5 controls. Add a text box to the control #5 containing the description for #5a *.
Draw a circle around the other #5, and add the text 5a, add extra lines if you want.

* Or, if you're really fussy, create a one line jpg and paste it in.

Alternately, buy and learn OCAD, solve this problem, then try not to get annoyed by the missing functionality which you used to enjoy in CONDES.

This is a side issue, but I wonder whether, for some events, we could dispense with descriptions, by using the MTBO technique of the circle with a purple "focus dot" in the middle. I'm particularly thinking of urban sprints where the description is almost always "building or fence corner". The std hieroglyphics are so clumsy for defining "which side of".

Have decided to use the all variations map. Slide all the control codes off the map and put control numbers in as text. Tedious but I think the best solution.

Finn has advised that the "all variations" OCAD export problem will be fixed in the next maintenance release (didn't quite make it for 9.1.13), with the option to have control codes replaced by control numbers on the wish list.

Condes 9.1.14 fixes the "all variations" OCAD export. Interestingly, the exported course has the control numbers shown on the course, rather than the control codes, so there is no need to edit the numbers in OCAD. The exported control description doesn't have the start description in the first row, so if you need it, it would have to be inserted in OCAD.