Discussion: What to run in
in: Orienteering; Gear & Toys
Jun 4, 2007 2:29 PM
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I am new to O and have only participated in a few local events. Where I live it is getting warmer and it will be hot when running. When training for normal running I would just wear shorts. During O events I have to worry about the brush and thorns and other things that will tear into your legs and more importantly Ticks. Lyme ticks are a big problem where I live and the disease you can get from them concerns me so I need to cover up while running through the brush. What is recommended for these kind of conditions so I won't get too hot and something that wont get torn to shreads by the bushes?
Jun 4, 2007 5:35 PM
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You might try shaving your legs. I do this for cycling anyway, but I've found that when my legs are clean shaven it's much easier to spot and remove tics (whether they've attached or not).
Jun 4, 2007 7:56 PM
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I wear a pair of light black nike pants in the summer. They are nice and light so are a nice temperature to run in. Also I hardly get any cuts on my legs (goes to knock on some wood) and the pants don't have any rips in them so far. so i love them! but yes o-ing pants work as well.
check for ticks though that is a big one!!! i have had lymes twice and it is not fun!
check for ticks though that is a big one!!! i have had lymes twice and it is not fun!
Jun 4, 2007 8:05 PM
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jima:
I wouldn't rely on on O-pants and/or gaiters to protect me from ticks. That's what bug spray is for, as well as a good all over bug check once you're out of the woods. Regardless of how many layers - overlapped, tucked in, taped shut - you're a wonderful source of dinner, and they'll find a way through. In many cases, I've found that the little critters will work their way up until they are stopped - I've pulled numerous ticks off just below my waist line, under the elastic on my O-pants
On the other hand, depending on the vegetation, sometimes a pair of gaiters is all you really need - if the nasty stuff is mainly low level, such as blueberry bushes.
If the woods are thicker and the nasty stuff higher, something to cover your knees and thighs is called for. If there aren't any thorns, I have done OK wearing running tights as protection against slapping brush and branches.
If thorns are involved, you want something tougher. I have taken a pair of the older style O'pants and lined the fronts with duct tape as a thorn barrier with pretty good success.
It's been a while since I've sprung for an O-suit, but I have seen many with mesh gussets, or the entire back of the leg, that would help with air movement and keep you cooler.
On the other hand, depending on the vegetation, sometimes a pair of gaiters is all you really need - if the nasty stuff is mainly low level, such as blueberry bushes.
If the woods are thicker and the nasty stuff higher, something to cover your knees and thighs is called for. If there aren't any thorns, I have done OK wearing running tights as protection against slapping brush and branches.
If thorns are involved, you want something tougher. I have taken a pair of the older style O'pants and lined the fronts with duct tape as a thorn barrier with pretty good success.
It's been a while since I've sprung for an O-suit, but I have seen many with mesh gussets, or the entire back of the leg, that would help with air movement and keep you cooler.
Jun 4, 2007 8:23 PM
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I wear very lightweight O pants with a singlet spraying cupious amounts of bug spray to keep the ticks, flies, etc. off.
May 16, 2009 11:19 PM
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If you know anyone in the military they have the best bug spray ever. You spray your clothes with it and it stays on through washes for months. It works fantastic! But you still have to pull tics off of you sometimes even with the spray on.
May 17, 2009 1:16 AM
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They are probably using permethrin, a reasonably effective insecticide that is applied to clothing (NOT to the skin). It can be purchased at just about any store that sells camping gear. It might be cheaper to get it via the military (then again, it might not), but that's certainly not the only source.
May 17, 2009 1:47 AM
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The one caveat with permethrin is to not wash it in hot water. Apparently hot water removes it.
Most commercial sprays say they last 2 weeks. The studies I've read say permethrin applications last on the order of 6 months (assuming no hot water). I assume the 2 week number is to get you to use a lot of the spray.
{Edit---The 6 month number was for a liquid application process inside a plastic bag, and is more correctly 50 washes. The spray is said to last on clothes for 5-6 washings.}
Most commercial sprays say they last 2 weeks. The studies I've read say permethrin applications last on the order of 6 months (assuming no hot water). I assume the 2 week number is to get you to use a lot of the spray.
{Edit---The 6 month number was for a liquid application process inside a plastic bag, and is more correctly 50 washes. The spray is said to last on clothes for 5-6 washings.}
May 17, 2009 8:00 AM
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me, being a runner mostly wear a singlet or short sleve shirt and pants that come to around knee length but this useualy ends with me finishing with blood pooring from my shins. but i cant see myself running in long pants any time soon
May 17, 2009 10:53 AM
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Well there's several different dosages of permethrin. Military strength permethrin is 40 times more powerful than the type sold for consumer application, under the trade name BuzzOff. The USNavy recommends that the military-strength permethrin be applied only by licensed pesticide applicators; it can result in blurred vision and vomiting...difficult to deal with while orienteering.
The environmental solution, at this point, stays away from permethrin: saturate O-clothes with DEET, seal in plastic bag until needed, and replace in plastic bag after leaving woods.
The environmental solution, at this point, stays away from permethrin: saturate O-clothes with DEET, seal in plastic bag until needed, and replace in plastic bag after leaving woods.
May 17, 2009 3:49 PM
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That treehugger article appears to have several factual mistakes.
I went through some of my old links to respond to it, and I did learn a few things. The 40% solution, at least in 2004, was in a kit designed for an individual to apply. Since the treehugger US Navy link isn't working for me, there is the possibility the recommendation was changed to a licensed applicator. (I actually find that wording extremely improbable. I'd expect a recommendation like that to require a specific occupational code coupled with specific training.)
I'm going to continue to follow this advice to use both permethrin and DEET. That link worked when I tried it just now.
This study shows permethrin is more effective than DEET for protection from ticks. The table on page 3 (fifth page in?) shows drastically more normal condition ticks using DEET and many more dead ticks using permethrin. {Edit---the link apparently doesn't work. Click on the highlighted link to get back to the journal search form, type "permethrin deet" into the search, and look for the 3rd (?) result, which is titled, "COMPARATIVE FIELD EVALUATION OF PERMETHRIN AND DEET-TREATED MILITARY UNIFORMS FOR PERSONAL PROTECTION AGAINST TICKS (ACARI)"}
I somewhere have a link for a comparison of mosquito bites using DEET alone, permethrin alone, and the two in combination. There is a reason the DOD recommends using both in combination---It works. For some reason they only consider DEET for skin and Permethrin for clothes---This study linked in the above paragraph is unusual in that it puts DEET on clothes.)
If you want to find more to read than you'll ever care to on the subject, go to the Armed Forces Pest Management Board (www.afpmb.org/), go to the document/pub search, and search for studies with both permethrin and DEET.
I have two problems with the treehugger article (other than the fact he's recommending DEET (N,N-diethyl-m-toluamide) as an "environmental solution").
First. DEET is volatile. It's not clear if a plastic bag will give you long-term "storage" of the DEET. It's likely to just diffuse right through it.
Second. He says nothing about the potential health problems from DEET. Go search google for "DEET seizures" and you'll find links like this:
www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/00001475.htm
(If you read this whole thing, you'll see they're showing a risk, but recommending to use DEET anyway. I especially like this part: "DEET has been marketed in the United States since 1956 and is used by an estimated 50-100 million persons each year. Since 1961, at least six cases of toxic systemic reactions from repeated cutaneous exposure to DEET have been reported...".)
To wrap all this up. I've had lyme disease. Go read some lyme disease horror stories, and then decide whether the risk of DEET combined with permethrin compares to the risk of lyme. I use both. For lyme (or TBE) areas I use the 33% DEET lotion (3M Ultrathon) from the first link---other (non-Lyme) places I use DEET spray because it's easier.) Try to wash your hands after touching DEET because it'll melt your plastic watch.
I was in Umstead (near Raleigh, NC), and there were ticks everywhere. I saw one jump onto me from a little tree as I pushed through some green. It hit my shirt and jumped off---It apparently did not like permethrin.
I spray my shoes, too. One person told me he has found more than 50 larval stage ticks on his shoes (from one day in Umstead at the height of the larvae).
And do not sit in your car to change. The ticks like the heat and jump off you into the car, and then they get you later. That's how I got Lyme. I had on protected crew socks in the woods, and I had sprayed DEET on my leg above the sock. Afterwards I switched into ankle socks and had a ring of no DEET right at my ankle, and 10 days later that's where I got the bullseye EM rash. Someone else had sat in the car to change, and one apparently got on me during the 10-hour drive home.
I went through some of my old links to respond to it, and I did learn a few things. The 40% solution, at least in 2004, was in a kit designed for an individual to apply. Since the treehugger US Navy link isn't working for me, there is the possibility the recommendation was changed to a licensed applicator. (I actually find that wording extremely improbable. I'd expect a recommendation like that to require a specific occupational code coupled with specific training.)
I'm going to continue to follow this advice to use both permethrin and DEET. That link worked when I tried it just now.
This study shows permethrin is more effective than DEET for protection from ticks. The table on page 3 (fifth page in?) shows drastically more normal condition ticks using DEET and many more dead ticks using permethrin. {Edit---the link apparently doesn't work. Click on the highlighted link to get back to the journal search form, type "permethrin deet" into the search, and look for the 3rd (?) result, which is titled, "COMPARATIVE FIELD EVALUATION OF PERMETHRIN AND DEET-TREATED MILITARY UNIFORMS FOR PERSONAL PROTECTION AGAINST TICKS (ACARI)"}
I somewhere have a link for a comparison of mosquito bites using DEET alone, permethrin alone, and the two in combination. There is a reason the DOD recommends using both in combination---It works. For some reason they only consider DEET for skin and Permethrin for clothes---This study linked in the above paragraph is unusual in that it puts DEET on clothes.)
If you want to find more to read than you'll ever care to on the subject, go to the Armed Forces Pest Management Board (www.afpmb.org/), go to the document/pub search, and search for studies with both permethrin and DEET.
I have two problems with the treehugger article (other than the fact he's recommending DEET (N,N-diethyl-m-toluamide) as an "environmental solution").
First. DEET is volatile. It's not clear if a plastic bag will give you long-term "storage" of the DEET. It's likely to just diffuse right through it.
Second. He says nothing about the potential health problems from DEET. Go search google for "DEET seizures" and you'll find links like this:
www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/00001475.htm
(If you read this whole thing, you'll see they're showing a risk, but recommending to use DEET anyway. I especially like this part: "DEET has been marketed in the United States since 1956 and is used by an estimated 50-100 million persons each year. Since 1961, at least six cases of toxic systemic reactions from repeated cutaneous exposure to DEET have been reported...".)
To wrap all this up. I've had lyme disease. Go read some lyme disease horror stories, and then decide whether the risk of DEET combined with permethrin compares to the risk of lyme. I use both. For lyme (or TBE) areas I use the 33% DEET lotion (3M Ultrathon) from the first link---other (non-Lyme) places I use DEET spray because it's easier.) Try to wash your hands after touching DEET because it'll melt your plastic watch.
I was in Umstead (near Raleigh, NC), and there were ticks everywhere. I saw one jump onto me from a little tree as I pushed through some green. It hit my shirt and jumped off---It apparently did not like permethrin.
I spray my shoes, too. One person told me he has found more than 50 larval stage ticks on his shoes (from one day in Umstead at the height of the larvae).
And do not sit in your car to change. The ticks like the heat and jump off you into the car, and then they get you later. That's how I got Lyme. I had on protected crew socks in the woods, and I had sprayed DEET on my leg above the sock. Afterwards I switched into ankle socks and had a ring of no DEET right at my ankle, and 10 days later that's where I got the bullseye EM rash. Someone else had sat in the car to change, and one apparently got on me during the 10-hour drive home.
This discussion thread is closed.