Discussion: O-Shoes

The last 3 or 4 years, I've been running at o-meets in my AR shoes but as my speed has improved I've been rolling ankles more frequently.

I'm thinking about getting some o-shoes. Most of the shoes I've tried so far seem to be made for narrow feet and I've got fairly wide feet...

Any thoughts or suggestions (on shoes or ankle roll prevention) would be appreciated.

Shoes - a number of manufacturers make them with wide lasts. Here is one.
http://www.vjsport.fi/e_m_shoe_makers.htm
The Twisters and the Falcon are wide lasted.

Ankles. Strapping tape is the least intrusive but also the least convenient. There are many commercial products. I am currently using Futuro ankle supports which are Velcro strapping plus vertical bracing either side of ankle.
http://www.futuroaustralia.com.au/product_overview...

if you have broad feet try some inov8 they are a wide fiting .log on to compass point they sell them as well

I wear Active Ankle Braces and I haven't injured my ankles once wearing them..They are designed for basketball but they work very well for running and orienteering.

http://www.activeankle.com/

I have difficulty fitting my wide feet, but have recently found the GoLite Spike Tail and Active Ankle combination works for me.

I just started wearing active ankles and find that they offer good support.

I have wide feet and only run in VJ Falcons. No other O-shoes fit my foot, but Falcons do just fine.

I also support the nomination of the VJ Falcon for fitting wide feet (mine are E width). A note of caution, though: the heel counter on all the VJ shoes is very stiff and can inflame your achilles at the bursits gland. This happened to me last year and I subsequently learned it's a pretty common injury among VJ wearers. The fix for me was to wear a thicker sock. I had been using super thin triathlete socks. I've switched to a somewhat fuzzier sock and not had any problems.

VJ Falcon fans, try also Jalas Jukola FLX 4570

I have older jalas bleck flx model and big surprise to me was how heavy they are after getting wet.. I was shocked during first race, now it's ok, got used to that. and they are wide enough.

A wide, stiff sole only tends to accentuate the twisting moment, since every extra millimeter of width extends the horizontal lever arm, and hence the twisting forces that injure ankles.

I find that I want to get the narrowest shoe that I can still run in for 90 minutes or so. I'm not looking for comfy slippers, but rather high-tech performance shoes. I could never run a Rogaine in O shoes; they're just not comfortable for more than a couple of hours' wear.

Also many runners don't appreciate that O shoes have very little cushioning. Running off pavement, you really don't need much cushion. And for a good reason: cushioning only perches your heel up in the air...like running in high-heels! This elevation lever-arm accentuates a tendency to wobble as you run on uneven ground, and also creates a second twisting moment.

O shoes have no cushion, and bring those heels down as close to the ground as possible to reduce this vertical lever-arm...and also eliminate those absorbant cushioning sponges that tend to soak up water that inevitably is present on most O courses. Thus a good O shoe may be wet, but should remain light since it is nothing but hard leather, with a thin hard rubber sole.

All and all, O shoes are very sport-specific. Much better for trail and off-trail running than the typical running shoe which has lots of fabric, sponge and cushion perched on top of big wide flared heels; high and wide...not good.

The point about a narrow shoe is an interesting one. I have quite a few pairs of O shoes in the closet, never mind that a few pairs hardly cover the foot at all anymore. The wider shoes I own, one pair of the aforementioned Jalas Jukolas and another of Jalas Blacks feel great when I put them on but tend to feel looser as I go and I seem to be more prone to rolling my ankle with them. Meanwhile my old and very very tight Integrators minus the insoles feel too narrow when I put them on but usually feel just right after hitting something swampy. I, by the way, also temporarly had decided that I had wide feet when it comes to orienteering shoes even though this was never an issue with any other kind of shoe. What I surmise from all this is that perhaps O shoes should feel a bit tight when dried out and you have to trust they will loosen up when used. For whatever it is worth a crusty old Finnish orienteer suggested you simply have to get your O shoes wet at the beginning of the season and then stuff them with newspaper so your feet can fit in them again as they have shrunk down to munchkin size over the winter. Oh yes and he also mentioned I should stop drying them out by setting them next to heaters since this can actually destroy the glue holding them together besides shrink the leather.

Falcons give me blisters underneath my foot. Not so bad if I wear them 1/2 size too small, but that hurts for longer races. My latest experiment will be to get them large enough, and wear neoprene socks.

Inov-8 MudClaws seem to work well if I take out the in-soles. They don't give me any blisters underneath, but the heel is so low that I have to take precautions to avoid heel blisters. According to a few enthusiasts, the heel problems go away as the shoe shapes to the foot. I have a pair of 270s and a pair of 330s.

In general I find that 2-layer synthetic socks reduce the blister problems, as was discussed in another Attackpoint thread.

An enthusiastic yes for the Mudclaw 330s as rogaine shoes: some blisters, but the tradeoff is, you can run, say, Hours 20 through 23 and feel comfortable. A maybe, probably no, for the Mudclaw 270s as rogaine shoes: much lighter, but many more blisters than in the 330s.

Knock on wood, I generally don't have problems with blisters.

For an hour or two I don't mind a snug toe box, especially as you say, when they stretch after getting wet. Most of my AR shoes start off snug in the toes, but they tend to stretch-to-fit as my feet get warmed up and start to sweat. It's the narrow arch and heal that really cause me problems with inflamation of the plantar fascia.

I also have a very wide foot, EEE, and have generally found the Jalas Spyder to be the most comfortable shoe. However, I do not know if they are still made. I was hoping to get a new pair this spring, but no vendors showed up for the Team Fund Raiser event in North Carolina.

Evan

I also have wide feet and also roll my ankles. I couldn't do the sport without my Jala X-Controls which have plastic ankle sport built in. When I started out I tried Active Ankles, but they gave me blisters.

Once I find a pair of shoes that I like, they seem to start falling apart. But I've found a solution: LiquiSole, an excellent urethane adhesive, sold only in the Baltic area.

The last time I was in Stockholm, I was browsing in a regular hardware store and found an amazing shoe repair glue that has been much more effective than Shoe Goo or any product sold here in Chicago...those I've found are cheap, and just don't have enough urethane. LiquiSole is expensive: a small tube cost 85 SEK...or about $10 for 28ml...but worth it!

I've lost the sole from my Jalas O shoes a couple of times, and fixed it with LiquiSole. Now when I see it starting to loosen, I shoot some Liquisole into the crack and snap rubber bands around the shoe to hold it together while it cures - about 2-3 days.

I've also squeezed a layer onto the bottom sole of a favorite pair of racing flats to keep them going for another season. Liquisole is so tough it virtually stops the wear. I've also used it for general household repairs that I want to be absolutely permanent -- excellent!

Next time you're visiting the O-Ringen, go to a hardware store and pick up a tube (and while you're at it, pick up some drill bits and a saw - the Swedes are known for their quality steel). You'll find there is no equal for fixing things. But a word of caution: once opened, the tube will dry out quickly unless you cap it tightly, and store it in your freezer.

Sounds worth a try, I will look out for it here in Finland. I was told that shoes made in Finland do not use the strongest glues available, Jalas in particular, because the powerful cements (used by shoe companies elsewhere or only sold in hardware stores?) are too toxic. Of course you were probably wearing a body suit, impermeable gloves and a top level mask for inorganic chemicals when applying that stuff...

Rather than putting ductape on my O-shoes when they start to fall apart, I've decided to go the preemptive route and as of early last year I put on a few sacrificial layers starting when the shoes are brand new. Seems to be working very well, significantly extending the life of the shoes.

Most of my AR shoes start off snug in the toes

No reason to have the forefoot narrow - it's the heel that needs to be tight to avoid twisting.

As a matter of fact, I leave the lowest pair of shoelace eyelets empty when lacing up my shoes for the first time. Thus my forefoot has more room to spread out. I've vastly reduced toe injuries this way.

And for the particularly frugal, by thus reducing the lacing pattern, you can cut one lace into two pieces, and have enough to lace both shoes...and keep the other brand-new lace in reserve for later use.

That's just about the cheapest thing I've ever heard.

I find that if you adopt the long o' socks with 3/4 length tights or pants style, you are less likely to get blisters from active ankles since the sock protects you.

I find that if you adopt the long o' socks with 3/4 length tights or pants style, you are less likely to get blisters from active ankles since the sock protects you.

ebuckley: That's just about the cheapest thing I've ever heard.

I know someone who used to count the matches in matchboxes before buying them so as to make sure to get the best possible value for money. No moving matches from one box to another in the store - that would be theft. That's close.

That's just about the cheapest thing I've ever heard.

I worked with a guy who habitually took toilet paper from the office bathrooms so he wouldn't have to buy it.

I have ankle sprain problems, so decided to try Jalas Cross contr flx 4692
http://www.jalas.com/index.php?do=productpage&row=...&
I ran yesterday in a really difficul terrain, with rock and wood everywhere, and fell surprisingly very very good. was skeptical about this tipe of shoes at the beginning but they convinced me as I wore them. you aren't disadvantaged at all in your movements.
having unstable feet I however wore tape. tape alone wasn't enough before, nor is the shoe itself for one with my ankle problems. but both combined are really good, and you feel none of them. one more advantage is that the shoes protect your ankle from rocks and so on too, and you feel really safer than with low profile shoes.
unfortunately they aren't built for wide feet, I think.

"I find that if you adopt the long o' socks with 3/4 length tights or pants style, you are less likely to get blisters from active ankles since the sock protects you. "
Yeah but then you look dorky ;-)

Hey Clark - wanna come work in my office? I could use a new cobbler.

may be, but I can save my ankles which is quite relevant..and I think the pajama colors which almost all of us wear are much worse :)

On the active ankles, how noticeable is the piece of (plastic? metal?) that goes under the foot?

The plastic piece is supposed to go under the liner in the shoe, so you aren't in direct contact with it. However, for me (not everybody), the active ankle levered my foot up and down as I ran causing a blister on my heel. Probably an adjustment problem. The best thing is to find someone who has a pair and try them.

I find the Active Ankle a pain in the butt if you have orthotics because like Jeff pointed out, it has to go under the insole or orthotic. So you have to put it in the shoe, then put the shoe on. Then when it's time to take your shoes off, you can't just take the shoe off, you have to take the AA off first. That totally annoys me. It also reafs your shoe open which can free the heel (problem described by JEff). I much prefer the ASO to the Active Ankle. It is a tad heavier but gives much better support. My 2 cents.

i have hugely fat feet, i was thinking of getting VJ Twisters, for ankle sprains i find wobble boards for strengthening ankles help prevent sprains pretty well

I don't know how reliable it is, but an othopodist once told me that you can never sprain an ankle if you firmly plant your heel first.

Apparently it is toe-running on questionable and uneven ground that applies extra leverage to the ankle.

I can see where a toe-striker would be much more likely to roll than a heel-striker.

I'm a heel striker when running in the woods and seem to manage often enough. Although, I don't know that I've ever truely sprained an ankle. Came pretty close a couple weeks ago... hence this thread....

>> Apparently it is toe-running on questionable and uneven ground that applies extra leverage to the ankle.

Really??? I've had exactly the opposite experience.

I always wear Active Ankles while orienteering (which make it literally impossible to sprain your ankle, in my experience), but my frequency of ankle sprains on trail runs went way down once I learned to get up a little more on my toes on sections of rough trail. My bad ankle sprains have always been a result of my heel striking a high spot in a trail at a bad angle, which immediately turns my ankle over. If my toe hits that same high spot first, my foot is more able to take corrective measures to prevent the ankle from turning over.

But YMMV, I'm sure. Ankles are complicated things.

I'm with steve on the heel vs toe point. the forefoot strike seems to give me a bit of early warning on the surface angle before all weight is committed to the ankle. my recent ankle sprain was on a heel-first landing.

I think that a solid heel plant probably does prevent a roll, the problem is that in order to get a solid heel plant, you have to bring your foot down in a way that your midfoot is very vulnerable to striking some raised object like a rock or, in my most recent sprain, an osage orange. This can also happen if your heel misses the ground altogether (because you stepped on a hole or off a ledge). If your midfoot hits uneven, there's almost nothing you can do to prevent it from rolling - there simply aren't any stabilizing actions in that part of the foot - all the force gets transferred to the ankle.

By "tiptoeing" through bad patches, you do increase the risk of rolling topside, but presumably your aware of the risk and ready to get the weight off quickly. I think a lot of what people consider "learning" to not roll an ankle is really just learning to get the weight off it before any real damage is done. There's almost no chance of a heavy midfoot strike when you're trying to land on your toes.

I much prefer the ASO to the Active Ankle.

Ok, what is ASO?

Ankle Support Orthosis... or something like that!
I would point you to a link, but I could be accused of publicity... but just Google "ASO ankle" and you'll find what you need.

>> Apparently it is toe-running on questionable and uneven ground that applies extra leverage to the ankle.
Really??? I've had exactly the opposite experience.

I certainly yield to Mr stevegregg's record and experience.

But the way it was explained to me was, when you plant your heel and it twists, the ankle "sees" a twisting force acting on a 4" lever arm, because your ankle is 4" above your heel.

However when you come down on your toe and it twists, then the twisting forces are acting on a 10" lever arm...check it out for yourself. So the twisting moment or force acting on that ankle joint is 2-1/2 times greater when the toe twists!

Sorry I will disturb you with some gratuitous fashion comment, but when looking for VJ shoes today I find this page with apparently the new 2007 models for VJ shoes:
http://www.orientator.com/eng/olskor.html

Am I the only one to find this new look "ugly" or at least "too common for o-shoes"?
I am gonna miss their stylish thin black leather look.

Well, I'll go one worse and say that I don't mind the new design in general, but the color simply won't work with the olive pants I wear.

Find whatever shoes are comfortable and get some Active Ankle braces. They are awesome. the plastic bit under your foot is barely noticeable if you stick it under your insoles. (I have had some blistering on the sides of my heels if my shoes are too small and I use them without the insoles - ie the plastic bit is directly under your sock). I wear them in 12 hour rogaines and have no ill effects (and I can't make it around an orienteering course without them - tape just doesn't cut it...)

I think for many people whether you sprain more running on your heels or toes depends which ligaments you have destroyed in the first place. One of my ankles is shot from rolling forwards and out whilst on my toes, the other went straight sidewards when I had all my weight on my heel. Different injuries then - different points of weakness now...

Am I the only one to find this new look "ugly"

Bowling shoe or bedroom slipper.... what a choice.

Clark, I think the stiffness of the shoe makes a huge difference in your therory. If the shoe is very stiff, then yes, I can see the foot becoming a rigid lever. But in a soft shoe like an o-shoe, the force applied to the forefoot will be absorbed and dissipated on the way by the multitude of midtarsal bones and therefore the force that makes it to the ankle joint is greatly reduced. Plus, landing on your heel is terrible for your body (and performance!).

Well the few times I've had the good fortune to follow you through the woods, I did notice a difference in running style.

Not only were you faster, but lighter of foot.

While I followed behind, conservatively stomping along on my heels....

Dominie experienced this at a meet near Vancouver with a lot of downfall. A *huge* amount of downfall. Barbie would lightly tip toe over the fallen branches on pixie feet barely making a dent whereas Mark would step on the same spots and go crashing through. In this case, it was probably more a matter of waist size than running style.

You guys are totally hilarious!!!
Clark if you have a chance, watch the video: Evolution Running". I think you would like it.

I'm not sure about a video. But I found an interesting website on the subject.

The basic premise seems to be something I've wondered about for years:

Athletes in every sport except running devote enormous attention to perfecting even minute details of the movements they will be required to produce in competition...Swim coaches have their athletes perform hours of drills designed to incorporate efficient movements into their swimmers’ strokes. Running coaches just tell their athletes to run longer and harder.

Runners, and their coaches, have basically ignored technique for years, assuming that their “natural stride” will give them efficiency and injury resistance. We have found that this simply is not the case.

That's what I've been preaching for years!
Good find!

That is a good find! I started with knee problems 3 years ago and the phys therapist shifted me from a forefoot landing to a heel landing.... It looks like that might not have been the right thing to do.

"Runners, and their coaches, have basically ignored technique for years, assuming that their “natural stride” will give them efficiency and injury resistance. We have found that this simply is not the case."

From personal experience, that is complete bullsh*t. I ran track for 6 years through high school and our coaches focused a lot on technique but the only real way to do that is by running. You run, they look at your form, critique, you fix it and run some more to incorporate the changes. Running is not like swimming where you can do kick drills, one arm strokes, arm drills etc to fix one aspect. My cross country coaches also were worried about technique. There are two reasons they all looked at technique, one was to prevent injuries, with poor technique you are more likely to be injured. The other is speed/endurance, with proper technique you run faster and farther with less effort.

The main aspects of form that I was taught were:
-upright body, chest our a liitle, shoulders back, head up hips foreward. The upper body position allows you to use your entire lung capacity and makes it easier to fill them. The hip position makes your strides longer so you get more distance with the same force.
-arms at your sides elbows ~90 degree angles, and moving aproximately the length of your forearm.
-square shoulders and hips, if you cross your body at all it hurts your stride length.
-and a heel to toe running motion, with a strong push off of the toes for a long stride, but i alter this to a tippy toe running in uneven ground.

Hear, hear! What arrogance! Running coaches devote plenty of time to technique. The problem is that the vast majority of adult runners have never been coached.

I ran a 10 mile trail run (hilly & rocky) today wearing my Integrators. My trail running friends see these and ask when I'm going to buy a good pair of trail shoes (Vasques, Montrail). After 6 miles or over 90 minutes in the Integrators on rocky trails or on an O' course, the heels and feet feel abused. Any recommendations for better O'shoes or trail shoes? Is there more cushioning with the trail shoes?

"-and a heel to toe running motion, with a strong push off of the toes for a long stride, but i alter this to a tippy toe running in uneven ground. . ."

Perhaps I spent more time bruising my heels on the rocks today. I just look for a good place to set my foot (like quickly finding your spot skiing moguls) to avoid twisting ankles and never paid attention to what hit the ground first, heel or toe. So, are you tiptoeing in the uneven ground when it's level? Seems to me all downhill running can't be on your toes and uphill is always on your toes.
I'll check into that Evolution Running video.

It's very dependent on the type of trail. I think the Vasque is the best compromise shoe I've found - works well on everything. The Montrail Vitesse is the lightest trail shoe I've ever worn. Very comfy, very fast, but not as much grip on loose stuff and not as much protection against rocks. They also get torn up pretty quick (although they still work fine even after the sides are ripped open). As with all shoes, the one that best fits your foot is probably the best for you regardless of other considerations.

I like the Vitesse also, but I found that the fit took a little bit of getting used to. I've had the same experience with tearing the sides open. I've also got a pair of Saloman XA Pro 3D's that I like a lot. Biggest problem you might have is finding a place that has a decent selection of trail shoes to try on.

What arrogance!
Marketing. But if you go to a place like that, how do you know you're getting good advice?

the vast majority of adult runners have never been coached

Certainly true for me. Although, I'm thinking about correcting that.

But if you go to a place like that, how do you know you're getting good advice?

Anytime you contemplate some action which will affect your health you have this dilemma. Wait until you're old...and have multiple maladies that need medical attention. And different doctors give you conflicting, biased and incomplete advice...how do you know what is "good" advice?

You eventually find out that, as an old guy in the waiting room told me the other day, "at some point, you have to make a leap of faith..."

Nothing is certain; everyone's different. But using the Internet, everyone can make educated decisions, taking into consideration their personal constitution, time-line, finances, desired goals and tolerance for side-effects.

Plus: Experiment

If you've heard or read something, try it out... See if it does make a difference for you.

Last summer I headed into a period where one knee was chronically sore. I found that I was heel landing, and over-striding, and made some changes to my running style that improved things.

This year I decided that pounding pavement was at least a contributing factor and moved to the (dew-covered) grass along the road. Sure, I get wet feet, but my legs are thanking me. (plus, I think it is "more" effort to run on the grass and therefore a better workout - kind of like running with weights on;-)

This thread is based on O-shoes, and I'm following it because I don't yet own a pair - but am now getting to understand what I should think about in making the decision to get some... [I'm still in trail running shoes]

I have some information about o-shoes and a foot problem that I want to share with AP in case it helps someone else out there. Bear in mind that I know little about foot and shoe mechanics so I am speaking "sole"ly from experience.
After some hard (for me) training sessions in o-shoes, I awoke one morning with a pain between my 5th metatarsal and cuboid. Diagram. I had experienced no acute injury and was baffled why this injury came upon me. It crippled me to the point where I was limping even when I walked (running was out of the question) and I thought it was a stress fracture. I treated this with the usual (rest, ice, ibus) and experienced no relief at all over a few days. I could not get in to see a doc quickly enough so I decided to try sports massage. Amazingly, she was familiar with this problem from her other running clients. It was basically an alignment problem between those two bones and the muscles around them had seized and were holding them in this position. 20 minutes of skilled massage to loosen these and then she adjused the bones back to their correct position. I experienced immediate and full relief. Almost miraculous.
Reflecting on this later, I believe that my feet were torqued to the point of fatigue by o-shoes that had little torsional support (I think that is mid-sole twisting strength). Anyway, I decided to use my Montrails for a few weeks and slowly work back into the o-shoes.
I hope this helps someone else who might be confounded by these symptoms some day. Anyone else know about this one...?