Discussion: Team Trials Event Website

When will the "oops" page go away, and be replaced with at least some basic information? How real is the risk of this event being canceled/postponed/relocated?

That's a good question! The Team Trials, barely 2 months off, and no information? I suppose it's the same for everyone and competitors will just have to deal with it, but still...

Permit-wise we are in good shape, but no final permits are in hand for any of the venues. Sanctioning-wise we are going through the normal sanctioning procedure. I'd say there is a good chance of at least some information appearing this week.

is it safe to buy airline tickets?

Same question here...

I'd say 70% safe. This number will be close to 100% (or 0%) early next week.

There are a number of reasons why the application and permits are coming together this late. If you recall, the WOC format is new this year. The Team therefore decided to add another race to the Trials. The addition happened after Get Lost!! asked to hold the Trials. It turned out not to be straightforward to just add another Sprint; the original Sprint venue, which was ready at the time of our application to the Team, could not accommodate two races, so another, brand new venue was found, tentatively permitted, and is about to be mapped.

The other major reason is the regionwide crackdown on advertising without final permits in the Bay Area. There were indeed some bad apples (among trail running operators that I know of), and now everyone must suffer. Penalties are harsh. The basic information on the Attackpoint event page is correct as of now.

I already bought airline tickets. I have high confidence in the ability of Get Lost!! to deliver an experience.

It's actually Get Lost!! for the first two races and terraloco for the closing two. We'll clarify this once the website is open.

Well, in that case, I'd have to reconsider. ;)

We have our tickets...

The Team therefore decided to add another race to the Trials. The addition happened after Get Lost!! asked to hold the Trials.

Was GetLost!! consulted before the extra race was approved by the ESC?

Penalties are harsh.

Aside from being denied the permit, how harsh?

We were asked whether we could add the extra race. We said yes. We are making it happen.

how harsh?

For the specific jurisdiction that we had a long excruciating discussion with, loss of permit privileges for a year.

About half of the information is posted. There is hopefully enough there for one to make travel bookings. The rest will come shortly. Registration will open this week. Links within our site to the event webpage will also be complete in a few days.

We are almost all the way through with permits for Friday and Sunday.

terraloco has more information about Sunday's Sprint courses.

The four races are confirmed as the U.S. national Team Trials for the 2014 World Orienteering Championships in Italy, and the 2014 U.S. Junior Team Trials for the 2014 Junior World Championships in Bulgaria.

Correction: Only the first of the two sprints will be a JWOC Selection Race.

Thanks Guy. There are a few other inaccuracies, which will be corrected. The new Trials format is new, well, for everyone!

(I say it is 100% safe now to get your tickets. And you should book the Clarion before it sells out the under-$60 rooms.)

"Middle distance adventure run"

Is this a middle distance orienteering race, a score-o, or something else? "Adventure run" is too broad a term.

I understand what you're getting at and I also sympathize with T/D's desire to market broadly. For those who know enough about orienteering to be concerned about the style of 'adventure run', the site does clearly say that the middle distance is OUSA sanctioned, which is (in my mind) a clear code for 'regular orienteering'.

Yeah, I know how that goes (I market Eric's races up here in Washington State). Personally, I'm not a fan of the term "adventure run" as a term even to net newcomers, because it does little to enlighten what it actually is.

"Adventure Run" could mean...

-The chaos that Road Runner Sports puts on at their Thursday Adventure Run (original format was to take a photo with your phone of a giant map...)
-That there are 'clues' and games and puzzles, ala Great Urban Race
-It's a regular run, but there will be a goofy, surprising element
-There will be drinking
-Some hash run sort of thing
-Scavenger hunt
-Nothing in particular, we're just going on an interesting tour of the neighborhood

I do use the word "adventure" in my other marketing language-- our calendar postcard for our rogaines (which we call "nav races") said, "Mark you calendar for adventure!" And I do use it in describing our urban score-o's ("urban adventure run") since I think the 'urban' helps make it more specific, and also- it's a far more casual event, so having the expectation that it's goofy is ok (even if we don't meet that expectation by having a plain navigation event, sans silly games).

But using a generic term, often associated with silliness, to describe a very technical and difficult navigation race? I'm not a fan.

Sorry, I just pulled a classic AttackPoint off-topic post, but I couldn't help myself. I spend a lot of time thinking about this very issue!

Anyway... I'm looking forward to it, it's going to be a great event, and I will be there! Yipee! California!

Indeed, "navigation race" seems better. "Adventure race" has been taken by the mudders.

Of important things, the website as of now is only missing Saturday's info. (Well, also the banquet info, which also is important.) Please let me know if you see anything else. Registration will open very shortly, with the first deadline being the day after Presidents' Day. We have about 40 shirts and these will be first come, first serve, included in the entry fees.

Will there be a discount for registering for all 4 events? (middle, long, sprint x2)?

Unfortunately not. The events have separate permits, maps, and separate sets of expenses. It is perhaps appropriate to set a discount for multiple uses of the same area under the same permit, but that's not our case.

I think discounts have historically been a courtesy to attendees, independent of actual expenses. For example, CSU's SML champs in October 2011 used three separate area but nonetheless gave a discount for registering for all three. I suppose the bibs and meet packets were fixed costs that were amortized across the multiple events, but the discount was not reflective of a decrease in expense per participant. That said, it's just a historical tradition, not a hard and fast rule for pricing.

aren't the two sprints at the same place or am I missing something?

The two Sprints are indeed at the same place, which had to have been found, permitted, and mapped because a second race was added that the originally chosen and mapped venue could not accommodate. The addition caused significant extra work and organizational expenses.

So, what you said above, "It is perhaps appropriate to set a discount for multiple uses of the same area under the same permit," doesn't apply to the sprints. correct?

Most (but not all) jurisdictions around here charge by the hour. The cost of the permit for Mills College is higher (approximately double) for the two races than it would be for a single race, and is higher (approximately double) what it would have been for Laney College, the originally mapped and permitted venue.

Raise the fees by $5 per race and give a $20 discount for registering for all four, then. Will make everyone happy.

Team Trials info from the ESC is posted on the OUSA website.

An orienteering map of Laney College currently exists? That's news to me. Will we be seeing it used for GetLost and/or Terraloco events in the future?

As one who is somewhat familiar with both of these campuses, I must say that Mills is (at least) twice as good a venue as Laney for a sprint race, and people should be happy to pay an increased fee to get the opportunity to compete there.

Yes Backstreet Boy made Laney in like October and then the One-Person Relay got added and then we went through a painful process to figure out what to do because, as you probably agree, Laney cannot hold two races and there is the marathon in the way of getting to/from Laney and any other venue. Laney is a terraloco map, watch the website for future plans!

Registration is open.

Banquet menu:

ANTIPASTO AL’ITALIANO
Slices of salami, mortadella, cheese, artichokes hearts and olives

CHOICE OF:
INSALATA MISTA
Greens with carrots, onions, tomatoes and Italian Vinaigrette
INSALATA CESARE
Romaine lettuce tossed with garlic, lemon anchovies, croutons & parmesan shavings

CHOICE OF:
POLLO SALVATORE
Chicken breast filled spinach, mozzarella, frittata in white wine sauce
RED SNAPPER RUSTICO
Red snapper filet baked with tomatoes, olives, garlic and basil
LASAGNA
Fresh homemade pasta in layers meat sauce, béchamel, cheeses & basil
MANICOTTI
House made pasta filled with spinach, ricotta in a marinara sauce

COFFEE, TEA DESSERT
LEMON CHIFFON CAKE

The banquet reservation is confirmed and this info will be posted later this week.

Day Two information, however, will not be posted until the permit is final. One jurisdiction is firm about this (there is enough terrain in the other jurisdiction that the event will happen as announced regardless). Day One permit is final.

Is there going to be a model event?

looks like one is needed for the dinner.

Yes, plan is to have a model event before the Middle. We can't 100% commit or announce this yet. There is terrain, I just can't guarantee I will have mapped it. The location would be right by the Middle finish. The Middle terrain is moderately to minimally relevant for the Long and not at all relevant for the Sprint.

We were hoping the dinner would be WOC-relevant.

And that banquet costs how much?

This event sets new price levels that won't be re-tested for some time.

I sure wish things were less expensive in California, but sadly they aren't! Our permits are the most expensive anywhere in North America. Our restaurants are, too. We aren't charging for the dinner any more or less than what the restaurant is charging. We could find a cheaper place, but then it wouldn't be a memorable experience, a hamburger is a hamburger. Or, Rex and I could instead be cooking dinner—or we could be making beautiful maps and setting challenging courses.

Why wouldn't we just "ask" someone to "be in charge" of the dinner? we can. Someone can perhaps be found to cook. This person needs at least minimum wage ($8/hour; good luck finding people willing to work for $8), payroll taxes (7.65%), health insurance contribution is mandatory in some cases, most counties require a food serving license ($170 or so) even if it's a one-time thing. We'd also have to rent a place, typical rents around here start at $25/hour for more or less a dump, $40 is more likely if it's nice.

Would this person do a better job than the restaurant? almost certainly not. Would it be cheaper? perhaps. Would the event be better this way? It seems that if $39 is a deal-breaker, then a significantly smaller amount may be, too. What I've seen out here more than once for an A event dinner is a semi-empty room with $22 hamburgers. I'd rather do something dignified.

For ease of logistics for those who prefer more affordable—or, perhaps, more sophisticated—dining options, the award ceremony will not be at the dinner but rather at the event center following the Long, and at the Sprint venue following the Sprints.

>or we could be making beautiful maps and setting challenging courses.

I would have no issue with paying high entry fees, when there are high mapping costs, supposedly paid to a recognized professional mapper (could be the organizer himself). But the terrain for the long event is so primitive,

http://baoc.org/gadget/kartat/149.jpg

that there is nothing there to map, and no way to set a challenging ORIENTEERING course, or anything that would test technical skills for WOC level. It is really just an "adventure race"-type terrain, lots of beautiful scenery, take a camera on the course and enjoy breathtaking views.

P.S. J-man's statement is mostly untrue. These are the same levels we've had for all of our sanctioned events since March of 2012, so testing is complete, system is operational. Of GL!!'s and terraloco's combined 23 national-level orienteering races since 2009 (some were not sanctioned), 9 featured or feature new maps. These maps cost money to make. If the map is given to us for free, which is the case with BAOC's generous donation of Shell Ridge, we give our participants a discount.

The course-dependent pricing for the Long is indeed new. It is necessitated by multiple jurisdictions and multiple permits; our expenses strongly correlate with the size of the piece of land we are presenting to the participants.

It is correct that the piece linked by yurets is not one that would test technical skills at the WOC level. It is also not a piece that is used for Team Trials. I believe there is some even less relevant terrain, aka cul-de-sacs, that is somewhere within Walnut Creek zip codes. I also believe that yurets has a high level of education that would enable him to generate the relevant links as well as it enables less relevant ones.

Since it's been at least implicitly requested, here's some accounting for our entry fees. I'd like to compare recent apples to apples within the same local cost structure and event format: Middle Distance. The first case featured the fifth use of the area; in our case this is the third use, first for the new ISOM-standard map.

You note that for most participants (non-locals, OUSA members, entry a month or so in advance), our Middle is indeed $7 more than the club's Middle, $34 vs. $27. Where do the $7 go?

The first $4 is the relative permit cost difference. Although both events are in high-cost jurisdictions, we have fewer participants over which to amortize the cost. The next $2 is the insurance cost. This extra cost, present to date in our events, will not play in 2014 and hopefully beyond. So, we plan to spend the $2 on better prizes than originally budgeted for, shooting for somewhere around the gold standard, the 2012 NAOC.

The last dollar is tax. We are a nonprofit, but we aren't tax-exempt or charitable. We have a minimum tax in California regardless of income or loss, which averages very close to $1 per participant for us.

Here's what you also get at Run Black Diamond:

• A complimentary T shirt (until supplies last).


• Food onsite (the exact details are TBD).

We don't pay our principals; if we did, these fees would be on par of the rest of outdoor-event industry, approximately double of what they are. It takes about 300 staff hours to produce an event such as Run Black Diamond, not including the mapping.

People, quit griping. The organizers are not trying to make money here, they're trying to cover their costs. Give them a break.

I just registered, and I'm psyched. I was wondering, though - how come the shorter/easier courses are cheaper? Isn't it just as many man hours and just as much effort to set up a brown course as a blue course?

Also, the banquet sounds like an excellent improvement over your usual watery overcooked spaghetti dinners that we're used to at orienteering events.

>yurets has a high level of education that would enable him to generate the relevant >links as well as it enables less relevant ones

Did they legalize smoking this stuff in Bay Area, too?
In fact I am glad if I'm mistaken here, and indeed it is not impossible for an adjacent area to feature terrain dramatically different from what I linked, and relevant to WOC Long in Italy.

Again, entry fees appear reasonable for newly-mapped quality terrain. Just a week ago, for example, GAOC were charging $35 a day to run on a relic-map from 1990s with USGS contours and "an update" of a few new rootstocks added.

I'm not complaining, just observing. I'm one of the people who thinks that orienteering is often too cheap.

That said, I do think that $137 (net, after discounts) for a (long) weekend A-event registration is maybe 30% higher than most folks on the East Coast are used to.

The generous explanation of the banquet pricing was unnecessary. IMO, that price seems congruent with the menu. I'm looking forward to it.

It's clearly more hours to get a Blue permitted than a Brown, and more expenses, in the grand scheme of things and for us. And it's more hours to map; not an issue here because BAOC is providing the map for free. A different organization's angle may be different.

Why more permitting hours and cost? Areas that can accommodate a Long Blue are a subset of areas that can accommodate a Long or Middle Brown. So, you can fit a Brown into a city park (as we have twice; one was easier and less expensive to work with than the rest of our venues), but you can't a Long Blue. With a Blue, logistics sometimes come into play such as driving on park roads in order to place water, which is an extra fee on top of the permit. It's pay to play in California, whether one likes it or not! And if Brown were our longest course, then there'd be no need to buy that large-format printer (that lasts a year or so at our use rate) or paper for it.

yurets, it's not dramatically different, just less open and more detailed, I can see a fair degree of similarity with this. Linked is not the Long Final venue, most likely a reserve area or one planned for the quals that aren't anymore. I don't know if there is terrain in North America that is quite like Lavarone.

... and let's not get started on whether Unterägeri, Pfannenstiel, Granåsen, and perhaps Holosiivskiy Lis are WOC terrain enough... wait , they were...

maybe 30% higher

Which is exactly 4 races vs. three.

One thing that we failed to mention... BAOC membership is available for purchase online. It is $16. If you are doing four races at the Trials, you win $4. If you also plan to do the Sprints in December, which we have high hopes will happen, you win $19.

Which is exactly 4 races vs. three

Yes, but... many people don't value sprints at 100% of the value of a longer event. Some do mental accounting and find it more difficult to pay the same amount for a shorter course. Here, we have 50% of the four races as sprints, so the perceived value gap might be wider.

many people don't value sprints at 100%

Indeed. I'd say it's their problem. The IOF certainly values Sprints at 33.3% of the total medal count and at 45.5% of WOC slots for USA. Entering one or both Sprints on Sunday 23 March is completely voluntary; if you'd like to get your two to three hours of running, you can, on Friday and Saturday at a total price not much over those in the rest of the country. Moreover, one can get a Trials score without ever running a Sprint.

What we also have is a brand new ISSOM map (not one of those blow-ups) and Sprint-obstacle-style courses (not a characterless through-the-white-woods checkpoint pickup exercise). And the map is by the preeminent ISSOM mapper this side of the Mississippi (shameless promotion here, no offense to GVOC crew!)

I'd say it's their problem

Agree. As long as there are doughty organizers who are willing to put on these events in spite of that, I could care less.

While the pre-discount fees may seem high, GetLost!!'s discounts are much more generous than what is typical...
$5 for being a federation member vs $4 for adults, and $2 for juniors. (if I have interpreted this correctly)
$5 for being a member of any O-club vs none
$5 for being a member of BAOC vs no discount to local club members.

As for the fees differing by cost for the Long, I have to wonder if going with a uniform fee -- or, maybe just 2 tiers -- that was high enough to cover the overall cost of the Long races, might have resulted in less work on the registration end... (A registrar's POV)

T/D & I have discussed the banquet cost off-AP...
While I consider $39 to be well above the price point of a typical A-event dinners, T/D has made it quite clear that he was arranging an atypical A-event dinner. The relatively small number of seats he has reserved (20) reflect his recognition that the banquet will not be drawing 100+ people. Plus, he has already alerted the junior community that they will probably want to seek out alternate dinner options for Saturday.

Yes, the $10 off per race (OUSA + Any O' Club) makes quite a difference.

I like the suggestion of joining BAOC to save some money!

Looks like I'll be a 3-club member in 2014, hahaha!

I am pleased to see the special discount for JST and US Team members for the one race although it would have been nice to have extended the discount to the other three races as well.

The justification for the (huge) discounts for the long day seem to be that there's no cost to the organizer to create the map, which is the often the priciest part. That doesn't apply at all to the other days, as far as I can see. And with the OUSA, club discounts, and junior pricing most juniors are getting cheap A-meet orienteering.

This thread makes me sympathize with anyone who puts on meets in the US.

I agree with Cristina. Based on this thread (and many similar ones in the AP archives), I'm totally impressed that any club puts on Championship races at all.

As an orienteering community, I think that in our effort to (constructively?) criticize, we need to be careful to avoid shooting ourselves in the foot.

I certainly agree with Cristina and wilsmith that civility should be the goal of AP and the community in general, but I don't think this thread has been particularly contentious or critical. Most of the remarks by people besides T/D have been questions or points of clarification. Thanks to T/D for responding so quickly to these inquiries.

I know I shouldn't be, but I'm still surprised that with airport parking, flights, lodging, rental car, gasoline, potential vacation day and shoe amortization a little ± on the fees doesn't wash out into rounding errors.

Maybe T/D can add a cover band at a water stop so it will seem to be as good a value as the nearby ~$95 Oakland half that Sunday with its >3000 participants and winning time shorter than the Long.

$95 is relatively cheap. Try an underserved area like LA. Trail halves sell out months in advance at $100+.

Where we can't really compare with the road or trail events is the arena experience. I wish we were bigger, but for now we should focus on the courses. The Saturday arena plans are slowly coming unglued, unfortunately, because of permit and other logistics; we'll see what we can salvage.

And, I can't deny that I am much happier with the adversarial-ness turned down a notch or two in the trailrunning community, compared to you know what.

You also can't compete on the beverage front. I've done two Muddy Buddies in Los Angeles at $90+ per person, with over 1,000 people per event. The two free beers waiting at the end are key to that event's success, I believe. By the way, the Muddy Buddy is held in a county park that LAOC can't get permits for, because off-trail running is prohibited. If LAOC served beer, kept to the trails, and charged $50, we would have a hit, I'm sure.

All major trail running operators out here serve beer, not limited to two per person, where parks allow (almost everywhere). They also have a barbecue: chicken, hot dogs, and burgers. (The biggest operator is heavier on Costco pies than on protein, but they also rarely have marathons or ultras.)

For those who are willing to make a slightly longer weekend of it, JetBlue have a two day sale with cheaper flights from Boston to San Francisco.

http://www.jetblue.com/bestfarefinder/?departure=2...

It's easy to join BAOC online, if you'd like to get the local discount for the GetLost!! events.

I haven't quite read the whole thread, but in general in society we're pretty bad at true cost accounting. There are companies like zipcar who's business model is predicated on people realizing that even though it stings to pay $70 for a car for a day, it's probably a lot cheaper than owning a car in a city where parking is tough to find or costs $150+ a month (not to mention gas, insurance, depreciation, etc). Even if I wanted to have a car 1 weekend every month for the entire year, zipcar would be cheaper than paying for parking. Yet, it's still hard to fork over the $150 for a weekend trip. Often people buy houses that are further away from work/play so they can get a bigger house, but then have to pay for that in commute time or gas money. And etc.

In our sport, entry fees are relatively small compared to the cost of travel and the time investment made by those traveling.

And, team trials is a tough event in terms of covering costs & breaking even. There are very high expectations for perfection in execution to ensure fairness in the trials. But, not necessarily high participation as there are typically tens of people going for the team, not hundreds. That gets us into other conversations about how to build a larger base of potential WOC athletes, etc. But.. that's another conversation :)

So, a huge thank you to these guys for putting on the race in the first place and making it possible for us to get a lot of great athletes together & choose a team for WOC.

Well said Suzanne!

Thanks, Suzanne.