Discussion: Jukola 2013

Competition Schedule

Friday 14.6.2013

6 pm Running orders of teams must be submitted at the latest

Saturday 15.6.2013

2 pm Start of Venla relay
app. 5 pm Winner of Venla relay at the finish
6.45 pm Venla relay restart
9.50 pm Venla finish is closed

11 pm Start of Jukola relay
11.31 pm Sunset

Sunday 16.6.2013

3.31 am Sunrise
app. 6.30 am Winner of Jukola relay at the finish

9 am Jukola relay restart for 7th leg
9.20 am Jukola relay restart for 2nd-6th legs
3 pm Jukola finish is closed

Does anyone know Live Streaming details? Video and Audio?

I've scanned the website and I can't find anything.

Venla relay http://areena.yle.fi/tv/1932332
Jukola http://areena.yle.fi/tv/1932333
or http://areena.yle.fi/tv/suora/tv2

Finland's national public service broadcasting company (Yle) will be broadcasting Jukola and Venla races. Yle is showing all the programs live on net. Some of the programs can be only seen in Finland.

Nort races (7.-8.June) can be still seen http://areena.yle.fi/tv/1909871

How can we tell what will be only available in Finland?

Will the GPS tracking be visible to the spectators at home?

If those links above work in Sweden that would be great.

I tried (in vain) to find live TV from NORT this past weekend and my Finnish is not that great so couldn´t make anything out of the various web pages I was directed to.

If you click the Venla relay link for example you should now see a player screen with a time counter saying "Ohjelman nettikatseluaika alkaa...". I tried looking at the instructions and it seems it should work from abroad but not sure..

Uh getting nervous already. The area is quite flat and probably pretty moist..

In Swedish.
Venla-kavlen. Refereras på svenska: http://arenan.yle.fi/tv/1932332
Jukolakavlen i orientering refereras på svenska: http://arenan.yle.fi/tv/1932333
eller http://arenan.yle.fi/tv/direkt/fem

From Twitter. Online result pages will be published soon(er or later). To follow a team address for Jukola will be http://online.jukola.com/tulokset/en/j2013_ju/kilp... and for Venla relay http://online.jukola.com/tulokset/en/j2013_ve/kilp...
Replace /joukkueennumero/ (=team number) with the number of your team like
http://online.jukola.com/tulokset/en/j2013_ju/kilp...

Kiitos!

According to the information in the Yle text-tv the broadcasting in the Yle Areena should be available also outside Finland.

If it is like last years, as it probably is, the GPS tracks are only shown in the TV broadcasting until to the end of the relay.

The streaming seems to be working.

http://news.worldofo.com/2013/06/14/jukola-2013-al...

I haven't seen a link for a live blog.

Are they way ahead of schedule? Early finish?

For a while this evening I was flipping the television back and forth between the Boston-Chicago Stanley Cup hockey game and the Canada-Ireland rugby game while watching the Jukola streaming on the computer. First the rugby game dropped out of the mix then the hockey game lost out to the last two legs of the Jukola. Thankfully Thierry ran fast enough that the relay ended minutes before Boston's overtime winning goal. I was able to see both.
Relay orienteering is REALLY interesting on TV/ computer even if I'm just watching minature pacman like figures trail their way across the map.
Can anyone explain the technical reason why the television image was some 30 seconds to a minute ahead of the GPS images (ie on TV the runners had left the controls before their icon on the map arrived)?

Does anyone know whether JWOC will have online streaming?

http://www.jwoc2013.cz/

Gord: Good observation. Probably because the GPS data is transmitted periodically (how frequently?) via cell and then has to travel though several systems with buffering and processing before it becomes video. The position acquisition takes some time also. You have likely noticed that when you approach a turn that the GPS marker lags vs. what you see; at least my Garmin. Irritating since the device knows your speed pretty well and could compensate the marker position.

Interesting last leg with unusually many blowout in sometimes bland and flat terrain. My old/old team Gbg/Majorna got caught at a forking. Kalevan Rasti rules!

Go Bruins!

For those who didn't make it to this year's Jukola:
Chest mount video (of a slow guy)
Map with route of the same run

When I was watching the race on the weekend it showed a replay of the start of the men's race from a camera that must have been mounted on a UAV because it showed all the runners breaking off into different routes. Is there a link to that video coverage of the start online somewhere?

Maybe it was KopterCam. They've got a bunch of orienteering connections:

http://www.koptercam.fi/en/contact

There was a big crane and there was a paraglider. I didn't see an octocopter, but there may have been. You can probably watch the whole thing again on Yle.

@Hammer: That was an awesome shot. I saw video of the start from ground level, and later saw that aerial shot, and it was really cool.

If someone finds it, please post a link and the time details. I only saw it when they took a break---what is that called? Bumper video?

17:20 mark of this link.

http://areena.yle.fi/tv/1913465

Sweet! Must've been a copter.

Was koptercam (BJ) Will be at WOC as well

Cool, check out 10 minutes in here too, http://areena.yle.fi/tv/1913276 , poor girl(?) in red was running for her life...

Scary


Scary scary.

If anyone didn´t notice on the picture above - the GIRL in red is an official trying to get out of the way only seconds after the start signal (SHE was too slow in leaving HER position). This was quite obvious on the live TV pics...

Edit: Whoops, I didn´t notice the comment or link to TV above the picture - and Neil corrected me in the one below...

girl, and not her fault... once the officials got the signal (late), they moved really, really fast...

Here's a still photo of the Koptercam in action:

http://kuosu.kuvat.fi/kuvat/Jukola2013/130615-37.j...

It was my company KopterCam that was filming at Jukola. We should have had a Live HD link from the sky to the TV provider YLE. In the end, we didnt quite get it working, so got some other footage with our Hexacopter.
Here is a link to the longer video of the start. This footage has had some colour correction, but NO post stabilization;)
https://vimeo.com/68754873

Once we get the HD link sorted, i believe that this will change the way that orienteering is viewed, along with a lot of other sports.
We will also be at Vuokatti, and hopefully LIVE from the air, if all goes to plan.
Hope you enjoy..
-BJ-

Beautiful

Spectacular! Great footage.

...this will change the way that orienteering is viewed, along with a lot of other sports.

Sorry BJ. But IMO introducing Drones into orienteering, as well as other sports, is the beginning of a slippery slope:

- Competition: won't the presence of drones in the sky, say to the west, give uncertain runners unfair advantage?

- Proliferation: why shouldn't teams, coaches and competitors fly their own drones too?

- Big Brother?

- Environment: what about polluting the woods and competitive area with noise and toxic aerosols?

At least here in the US, this issue is prompting an increasingly heated debate. And I've gotta say, I'm concerned about drones' rapid appearance at O meets.

@Ndobbs

That start was ridiculous. Jukola is always the best organised event in the world, but whoever was in charge of the start was an idiot. I was lukcy (number 5, SNO) that I got round OK. But some people got completely tangled up in the tape and ended up on the floor with hundreds of people running over them. I don't even know why they were still there. The tape was used to make us enter the start lanes from the side. But once we were in with several minutes to go they should have left.

@ chitownclark

1) No. The drone will be up in the sky and can be filming any person in any direction. Plus many controls already have TV cameras and photographers at them. WOC has a person manning every control.

2) I don't really know what you mean. Seeing how you cannot communicate with the competing athletes then having your own drone wouldn't help. If it did ever happen (it wouldn't), you could easily write into the rules that only the official media partner is allowed drones.

3) What? It's TV, not the NSA

4) They are electric and don't make much noise, certainly less noise than the spectators, or PA, or 1600 runners. The Jukola has had real helicopters before.

@chitownclark
While i was thinking about what to reply, Nixon beat me to most of my points, and i thank him for it. But i will still give my opinion (as everybody that knows me, knows that i cant help myself), although given your comments you have already made up your own mind.

1. We call them Kopters, either Quadcopters, Hexacopters or Oktocopters depending on what we are using on that particular shoot. People that use the word Drone, IMO only see them as military craft. ie spying on people, or blowing up civilians...

2. A """"drone""" in the sky will not help an orienteer find the control, unless the said runner has an RF link to my screen, and given your not allowed to use a GPS watch at big events, this seems highly unlikely. That said, should standard TV cameras be taken away from WOC events? there is always the old saying, that if you can see the cameraman, you know he can see the control. If you can find a single example, when Thierry has used a TV cameraman to find a control, i will file my company for bankruptcy now... You do realise that the kopters arent hovering 2m above the control dont you??

3. Could teams fly their own """drones""" above the competition centre? Under the current rules, both IOF and Legal in Finland, 100% YES. Would it help a runner DURING a WOC, 100% NO. Could a team deploy a """drone""" to check out a embargoed area? In theory YES, but in reality im sure this would come under the rules of an embargoed area.

4. Toxic aerosols? Our kopters run on Lithium Polymer batteries, you give out a lot more emissions driving your car to the event. As for noise, I accept that if you are a single runner, with nobody around for a 10kms, with a kopter 70m in the air, that you may struggle to hear a Bee flapping its wings

As for the article you have linked, to be honest i have read much better arguments that favour your side. The US, has an issue with """drones""" and the average american citizen believes they are only used for spying and dropping bombs. Have you thought about the other positive aspects that """drones"""" can have??
Can i ask you a question, did you like the footage we took??? Did it give a new angle to orienteering?? Given that orienteering is going after a wider reaching audience, to you not think better media coverage will help?
The mainstream media is coming to Orienteering, give it a week, and you will understand what i mean;)

Im sorry for the long post, and i dont mean it as an offence. But technology is changing as is our sport, and we as people should take note. Im sure 100yrs ago, people were afraid of the automobile, well its not different now........

> Did it give a new angle to orienteering??

Hell yeah! Awesome technology. We are now using UAV's (copters) in my wildfire research and they are growing in use in the resource sector in Canada because of the health and safety cost of real helicopters in remote deployment. I have a colleague that are testing using UAV's to remotely monitor wildfires (yes during the fire).

Anyway, would love to see more KopterCam in O. Great job BJ.

...you give out a lot more emissions driving your car to the event...

Well surprisingly, I'm an American..and don't own a car. I take public transit to our events. So I tend to want to leave the mechanized world behind when I'm in the woods.

Beginning a run on an O course, with just a map and compass on a beautiful spring morning...my heart leaps in my chest! I love the simplicity of this sport. That's what orienteering is all about! But the intrusion of "copters" silently overhead, photographing my every move.... Can you understand my reluctance to embrace this technology no matter how nice the pictures?

No need to apologize for your long post...very educational for me. I admit there is a lot I do not know. But I do know a few Finns. My wife for instance, is from Mänttä, near Tampere. And we'd been married for four years before I was able to get more than a few grunts and one-word answers from her.

So thank you for such a detailed post about a subject for which you obviously have great passion. And despite my reluctance, I guess I agree with Hammer: Awesome!

Excellent stuff BJ. Can't wait to see more.

That is amazing! Was it the one used at WOC 2012?

@Tatty
No it was a different company filming in Switzerland, and i wouldnt have been able to anyway, as was running WOC there;) They were using a similar system to us however.
Hopefully we get the Live HD feed sorted soon, everyone is trying, but it means needing to add a lot more weight, to something that cant carry so much....;(

@chitownclark
Yeah, sorry if i sounded a bit harsh, but many people only seem to see the negative aspects of the kopters, and not all the positives (which there is many many more of)

Ive attached another video for you though, just because you dont own a car......;)
Yes, this was flown from the vehicle (1 pilot, 1 camerman and a driver) and No the footage is not sped up. I think it truly shows the possibilities...

https://vimeo.com/63289094

This is great technology whose time has come, and you're producing great stuff with it. Here's hoping the US can sort out the legal hurdles that mostly prevent it from being used here (basically, it's illegal for any commercial purposes at the moment). It's probably only ever going to be useful for certain types of events in certain types of terrain (never for low-key events with a solid tree canopy), but where it works, it's sweet.

Nice touch putting the helicopter landing pad on the roof of the car. :-)

Very cool video. Someone must have been paying attention to the wires. And I really like the footage at the start of Jukola.

But, honestly, beyond things like mass starts, I don't see how it's going to change the way we watch orienteering unless you can see through the tree canopy. I know technology keeps advancing but, even if you could see through the trees, I think I would prefer watching the GPS superimposed on the map so I can see where the control is and the route for the past minute or two.

Amazingly solid imaging. Well done. Any image stabilization besides what the Kopter provides? Looking forward to Vuokatti videos!

see through the trees

Thermal!

There are numerous areas in the American West (among other places), where the view would be unobstructed. And it's not going to be the entire coverage, but just one more tool to be part of a complete coverage package. (For a sport that's really hard to cover for people who aren't really into it.)

I think I would prefer watching the GPS superimposed on the map

You could equally well superimpose the map, or at least the course, onto reality.

@jjcote
yeah the rules in the US suck at the moment, its ridiculous that as a hobbyist you can fly where you want, but its nearly a felony if you do it as a professional. Its the hobbyists that will cause the safety issues, as they mostly have no idea what they are doing. They are essentially flying lawnmowers if not piloted by a pro....

@carlch
i do see your points, and of course a lot depends on the canopy cover. Where the forest is clean though, the possibilties of its use are endless. What we are doing now aswell, is exactly what @bshields said. Not only will you have the option to see fly thrus on a map, but also the real life fly thru, with route options still superimposed into the video.

Give us another year aswell, and we will have the possibilities for a runner to also wear a transmitter on their back next to the GPS. The kopter/camera will then be able to autonomously follow the runner without input from us. Now that will be interesting.... A big issue with the orienteering is where we fly from. While we can currently fly on gps waypoints, at these kind of events the pilot will only fly line of sight. Thus we need to be able to find perfect places in the forest, with good takeoff/landing positions plus a good unobstructed view of the surrounding areas.

here is another video for you, this time XC skiing (Finnish Elite Cup)
https://vimeo.com/57552197

Very interesting and impressive footage!
How long can you stay in air with one battery pack?

The kopter/camera will then be able to autonomously follow the runner without input from us.

Be sure to post some outtakes from the development process when the kopter slams into a tree. :-)

So, how fast can the kopter go (in a straight line)?

Perhaps that "H" on the car-top box should be a "K"...

@mikes
unfortunately battery life is a big problem. We are using Lipo polymer batteries, and depending on the scenario, and which kopter is being used, we are ranging in between 6-16mins of air time. And that is running on 11-13000mah power. While this doesnt seem much, it is perfectly fine for all jobs except Live events. In Live events, much planning is needed, to make sure our battery changes are planned out, and we are in the air, when we need to be...

@jjcote
We have a fairly decent blooper reel from the old days, and it will get shown one day;) As for now, there will be no autonomous flights below tree level... As smart as the software is, it still cant work out where the trees are. For the FollowMe application i mentioned. A set minimum height would be set for the kopter (ie approx 5m above the tree line), and then the kopter will be able to do what it wants....

@GuyO
We have hit about 70km/hr (45mph) in some tests, and we think it could probably hit 100km/hr if really pushed (which we arent going to attempt, and that would probably have the kopter on a 85 degreee angle!!!!) But i guess thats the thing about what we are doing. For once, speed is not a factor, and slower shots look so much better than quick ones. Our aim is just to provide aerial shots, that you can not get any other way...

approx 5m above the tree line

Good plan. But the way these things go, the blooper reel may not be finished yet... :-)

Here's a guy getting 95 minute flights with a homemade quadcopter. I haven't read the entire thread---it is *huge*---but I've heard he explains how he did it. Apparently it involves bespoke motors and fairly large propellers. It's interesting that his 95 minute 'copter has a completely different tone, much lower, than a "normal" quadcopter. And, obviously, if you hang a camera on this, it won't fly 95 minutes.

Re: 85 deg angle: I don't think that's possible unless you're diving, or you have huge excess thrust. To fly level, you need lift=weight. That is the vertical component of the thrust vector.

W/T = cos(alpha), where alpha is lean angle, which gives

alpha = cos^-1(W/T)

If there is Thrust available of twice the Weight (W/T = 1/2), the vehicle can achieve a 60deg lean angle---in level flight.

To achieve 85 deg, you'd need thrust of 11 times weight.

This is probably correct as a first approximation. You get weird lift effects from vertical-lift rotors moving horizontally, but I think those effects would be minor, unless you start to add things like wings and control surfaces. (Also, I'm a little foggy on this---it's been a long time.)

@cedarcreek
Oh yeah there is guys out there getting some pretty good flight times, plus battery technology is slowing getting better. That said, we are carrying a hell of a lot more weight on our kopters. For our live feed camera at least, it involves carrying (along with all the normal kopter parts plus batteries) an HD transmitter, a HDMI splitter, a HD-SDI converter, 2x TX transmitters, 3axis gimbal, 2x2200mah batteries to charge the previous equipment, and a 700gram HD camera. It all adds up....

As for you 85 degree angle comment. Hell your a lot smarter than me!! I was just trying to push the point, of the angle that a multirotor has to be on to achieve these speeds. Im only the cameraman, and when im used to looking at a stable platfrom, trust me when its at full speed, it looks on a 90deg angle!!!!

...it looks on a 90deg angle!!!!

It might be. It's a very complicated dynamic system. They're very acrobatic when you don't assume sustained level flight.

The flight time is almost completely determined by weight, battery capacity, and the various motor and prop efficiencies. Some of the serious hobbyists use the GoPro without the case ("naked") just to save weight. Apparently getting HD video out of a GoPro takes a simple cable. It's limited for broadcast use (no zoom, obviously), but it is HD, and it's light.

This blows my mind, but I really want to build one: http://rcexplorer.se/blog/2013/05/tricopter-build-...

The builder is David Windestål, from Sweden.

To alleviate the need to power the lift for the payload, there have been several programs involving lighter than aircraft integrated with augemented lift/propulsion models.

http://www.gizmodo.fr/wp-content/uploads/2008/07/s...

Apologies for commenting on a side note, but as a Finn, I found this comment from @chitownclark from 6/22 pretty offensive:

But I do know a few Finns. My wife for instance, is from Mänttä, near Tampere. And we'd been married for four years before I was able to get more than a few grunts and one-word answers from her.

First of all, I fail to see what relevance this comment has to the kopter discussion. (Love the footage, @BJ!). Secondly, I object to the characterization of Finns as cave men incapable of conversation. I was struck by the rude comment because American orienteers are generally so knowledgeable and appreciative of my small homeland.

Ok, carry on!

OK tuuli, I apologize for making fun of Finns. But I've been welcomed into my wife's family in Mänttä with such warmth and good humor that I guess I feel at liberty to poke fun. My wife actually has a much better command of the English language than most other Americans.

So no offense intended...only admiration. In my mind, Finnish society is one of the most advanced groups of people in the world: education, politics, technology, architecture, athleticism.... And all from scarcely 4 million people. Incredible.

@chitownclark
""My wife actually has a much better command of the English language than most other Americans. ""

Hell, my wife is Finnish and she has a better grasp of English than i do!!!

Now Chi's making fun of Americans. Nice.

Whoa! BJ, when did you get married?

We're all good, chitownclark! I appreciate your second characterization of Finland. And Janet, I'd have to agree with chitownclark and BJ and claim that like their Finnish wives, I also have a better grasp of English than your average American (or Brit, I assume). ;)

@eddie
Wedding 2 years ago mate, the new baby is 3 months old. I had to grow up one day.....;)