Discussion: Musings on getting old.

I sort of like to think of myself as an athlete, although an aging one, but reality is beginning to take hold, and it’s not pleasant. I am in fairly good condition for a 67 year old, but running, particularly at any speed at all, is fast becoming a distant thing of the past. When I first got into running about 30 years ago, there was an old guy named Walt Stack, who must have been in his 70’s, who was sort of the father figure of a running club in San Francisco called the Dolphin South End Runners (I don’t think anybody really knows how they got that name). He always said that he started slow and tapered down, and he truly did run very slowly. In fact, I remember at the time thinking how could anybody run so slowly. Now I was never a great runner, but a respectable one (with at 2:52:54 marathon), and always enjoyed road racing and competition. However, through the years, with gradual degeneration of my joints, assisted by several traumatic injuries (torn ACL, which was reconstructed, and an intraosseous compression fracture of the distal femur), my running has become slower and slower. And since my joints, particularly my knees, hurt and ache most of the time, over the years I have cut my running back from every day to 5 days a week to 3 days a week, and over the last winter to once or twice a week. However, after bonking at our first spring event at Joe Grant in March, and being thoroughly trounced by Bob Cooley by almost 30 minutes, I decided to whip my body back in shape, and resolved to run at least 3 times a week, and do some other aerobic exercise (such as spinning) another 3 days a week. Then, at the recent Team Benefit A meet in North Carolina, I saw this huge device on Kathleen Lennon’s wrist, and asked her about it, and found it was a Garmin GPS unit. So since I am a gadget freak, I immediately ordered one. Shortly after I got it, I went out for a run along a relatively flat canal at lunch. I thought I was moving pretty well: my heart rate was between 145-150 the whole time (my maximal heart rate is 165) and I felt like I was really pushing it, which for me these days is 7:30-8:00 minutes per mile. Unfortunately, when I got back and checked the time and distance, I was shocked to see that I was doing 9:00 minute miles. Well, I guess I am going to have to go back and modify my log regarding distances, since I have been basing them on time, at roughly 7.5-8 minute miles. I am truly amazed that people my age, like Rich Parker, can still burn up the distance (remember we’re speaking about the Medicare set here), and even more amazed that Kent Ringo, who is in M85+, still competes. My God! That’s 20 years older than I am, and I am sure the decline will only increase in the next 20 years over what it has for the last 20 years. I empathize with Peter with his struggles to get over his hamstring injury. The body just does not recuperate like it used to. The elastic fibers in the muscles, joints and ligaments have become stretched out and non-resiliant, just like the elastic in a very old pair of underwear. My knees sound like a bowl of Rice Krispies in the morning, with all of the snapping, crackling and popping going on. Although I could very easily get an X-ray of my knees and MRI, I have decided that until I am ready to have the surgery if there is a torn meniscus (and I sure there is one), there is no sense looking at their miserable state of affairs. So I guess the end result is that I am thankful there is a brown course, and although I still like to think I could run with the 60 year olds (Peter excepted, he is in his own special class), I have come to realize that it ain’t gonna happen anymore, and I should just act my age. Now I know why a friend of mine gave me a copy of the magazine “Geezer Jock”. (I’m serious. There is such a publication.)

It’s not pretty getting old. Don’t do it if you can avoid it.

Evan

It’s not pretty getting old.

Bad as those of us on the downslope of the curve may feel now, the problem is that in the future we're going to look back and think, boy, did I feel good (and young) back in 2007.

I smile when I say that, cause crying don't do no good.

Well, it's easy to avoid getting old, but I wouldn't advise it. The alternative is not very good.

I believe this is Kent's last year on M85+, by the way. Next year he'll be M90+.

As you get older you are supposed to revert to childhood, or in orienteering terms, "run" shorter and shorter courses until you end up back on the White course.

Can I look forward to be shadowed in case I can't find my way out of the forest?

Evan,

Enjoy it. It beats the alternative;-}

George

Evan:
I'd say anyone tackling Joe Grant with bad knees deserves a few crackles and pops the next morning.

From my perspective, at the back of the M65+ pack, I'd trade your current speed for my knees any day. They're the one part of my body that hasn't given me any trouble..yet.

Your unofficial M65+ ranking is Gold - Third Place, with 13 A-meet events to your credit...and you're certainly far distant from the "O-zone." How do you do it?

I agree with your caution about aging...it all seems to catch up with you at once. But Evan, as Mae West used to claim, you're not getting older, you're getting better!

Or, as I think Satchel Paige said, the older you get, the better you used to be.

George, nice link! But I believe you were the one orienteering out in the cold rain today while I bagged it. Seems like you're holding up real well.

Peter,

Missed you. I'm just trying to keep up with Lyn. Helps to have a good inspiration to chase after in the woods.

I can't believe you posted this on the day I am getting old(er).
Thanks for letting us all know what joy awaits us.

But I'm with JJ & George on this one: getting older is better than the alternative. At least so far.

Peggy - go with Lyn - she stopped having them. So no more worries.

I've been amazed to see how age-group sizes have shrunk every five years as I get older...but the level of competition has intensified. Do people get discouraged and stop trying physically? Do that many people really become invalid?

I think the secret is to shift your motivation, compete only with yourself, from one year to the next. Go easy on yourself. Enjoy the fact that you can still get out there.

As Woody Allen once said: "Eighty percent of success is just showing up..."

Woody Allen also said that he didn't want to achieve immortality through his work - he wanted to achieve it through not dying. So he would also agree that getting older is better than the alternative!

hmmm, I am physically way older than all of you & was that way by the time I hit 25... I watch the injured logs & the rehab & the struggles to adapt to new functional levels w/ great sympathy & admiration. I wish I could contribute something significant...I guess I would say that even those struggles which are most clearly "You-Are-Screwed-&-Resistance-is-SOOoo-oo-Futile" (whether it's to get a clear diagnosis, or to rehab to the best of your ability or whatever) have to be attacked with all the cunning & power that you would use on training & competing - it's a new arena that demands even more mental stamina in some ways....and with great (huge, insanely gigantic, in fact frankly rather risky and unbelievable) psychological adaptation over twenty years, one can genuinely & deeply enjoy a thing like the two feeble wee kilometers I do most days. (Although I don't recommend the experience to athletes like yourselves, really, as a viable alternative at this time. Just to reassure you there ARE other unbelievably fun things out there ;-)

For those who haven't tried it yet, or haven't quite gotten to the point to need it, glucosamine-chondroitin will help fend off the joint pains, purportedly by restoring the cushioning fluid in them.

When I first started noticing my knees and hips were painful every day, about 3 years ago, I started taking the g-c combo and I rarely have to take anything else for joint pain. It was recommended to me by a trail runner 20 years older than me (I checked with my doctor before starting).

Most studies have shown that it can help, and doctors haven't said not to take it (unlike some other supplements). Choose brands carefully, though, if you have a shellfish allergy (some are made using ground shells; others use a different source).

With the passing of yet another birthday this month, I am sticking with my new theory. Life is too short not to do the things you love. Well, I love to orienteer. So, since the knees and hips no longer want to run as hard as before and since I like to get my money's worth at events, I have moved up, not down in the course levels. I now run Red or Blue. Run, sorry, not a word in my vocabulary these days. I trot and walk the 7-9 km courses and have fun. Really, those of you who believe that to have fun orienteering you must run and win, wait a few years. Just finishing the course in under 3 hours is fun when the alternative is, well, enough said. And you know what, someone has to be last . . .

"glucosamine-chondroitin will help fend off the joint pains, purportedly by restoring the cushioning fluid in them. "

Anyone like me with allergies to sulfa, be careful.

Scientific Name: Chondroitin
Other Names: Chondroitin Sulfate

I also found this on the drug site:

What interactions should I watch for?


Prescription Drugs

Chondroitin may increase the amount of time that blood takes to clot. When it is taken with antiplatelet or anticoagulant drugs, the effect of the drug may be increased, resulting in uncontrolled bleeding.

Antiplatelets include Plavix and Ticlid.
Anticoagulants include heparin and warfarin.

Non-prescription Drugs

Chondroitin may affect the ability of blood to clot after an injury. Aspirin can also delay clotting, so chondroitin should not be taken orally at the same time as aspirin.

I'll shadow you any day Peter.

Nice try, John. PG is holding out for a shadow who's more... F21.

Sheesh, picky picky.

JJ (who hit the nail right on the head), were you by any chance sitting around at the A meet at the Water Gap some time ago, when there was concern about how long 3 old guys (Kent, Bruce McAllister, and someone else) were out in the forest, and they had sent out search parties, and at least one had been found a loooong way from where his course went, and my somewhat tongue-in-cheek suggestion was that old guys past a certain age should be shadowed, and here I was quite specific, by F21s.

Knowing that such new policies usually take a few years to implement, perhaps I was just thinking about my own future.

I say,let's not wait for USOF to implement this measure, let the marketplace be our guide. Are there any F21's who would be willing to shadow an M 70+ , for a reasonable contribution to the Team?
In fact, as an incentive , I propose that the F21's charge by the hour! I think $100/hour would be quite fair....should get those times on M75 down right quick.

Wow, even on Attackpoint people can find new and amazing ways to expand the world's oldest profession.

I was at that Water Gap meet, November 2003, and that is indeed where I got my information. I believe the third old guy was Ken Lew.

Not so sure that $100/hour would reduce the M75 times. Some of them might find such a price for spending time in the pleasant company of some of our fine team members to be quite a bargain, and might take their time.

Jeff, even making it M70 means I've got to wait until 2014. Bummer.

And back to the original post, Evan, you ran a 2:52 -- excellent!

I do take chondroitin sulfate-glucosamine. It may or may not help. There was a good peer review article in the New England Journal of Medicine in Feb. 06 that was a double blind, muticenter study that compared CS-G with placebo and Celebrex. There was no statistical difference between CS-G and placebo overall for relief of osteoarthritis pain, although there may have been some improvement in that subgroup of patients who had moderate to severe osteoarthritis joint pain. To cover my bets, I take it, and have no known side effects.

A number of people have written that the alternative to getting old is not good. I agree, but I guess my thoughts were that despite not smoking, exercising most days, eating my veggies and fish, and doing all of the other good stuff one is supposed to do to fend off the aging process, there is only so much that can be done, and the gradual aging process can only be slowed, but not stopped. I guess the real shock was how slow I actually was when I thought I was running reasonably well. The fact that Mikkell can be the number one ranked orienteer in the US at age 48, that Sharon Crawford can still run F21 red and stil finish in the middle of the pack on most days, and that Peter runs red and frequently wins is amazing. I love orienteering and running, and hopefully will be able continue to do it until I drop at a ripe old age. I have always thought the two things one needs function well as an old geezer is a sharp mind and the ability to ambulate. I can dream of ambulating faster, though.

A new article in the Annals of Internal Medicine says Chondroitin Doesn't Reduce Pain in Osteoarthritis


Chondroitin does not appear to reduce joint pain in people with osteoarthritis and its use should be discouraged, concludes a study in the Annals of Internal Medicine.


In their meta-analysis of 20 trials comparing chondroitin with either placebo or no treatment, the authors found evidence of benefit only in small, methodologically weak studies. "Large-scale, methodologically sound trials indicate that the symptomatic benefit is minimal to nonexistent," they conclude, and "its use [in advanced disease] should be discouraged." However, because researchers found no adverse effects associated with chondroitin use, an editorialist did not completely agree: "If patients say that they benefit from chondroitin, I see no harm in encouraging them to continue taking it as long as they perceive a benefit."


The editorial says the U.S. expends $1 billion annually for chondroitin, which is usually taken with glucosamine -- itself found ineffective in a trial published last year.

I was event director for the 2003 Water Gap event and had started to get very worried indeed about just how we were going to find the missing folks as it was starting to get dark. We were lucky that Mark Dominie just happened upon one of them in the woods while collecting controls and got them headed back in the correct direction. The other two had found each other - again, far from where we were looking - and were picked up by someone in a car on the road.

Coincidentally, I was having a discussion with someone just the other day about how best to approach the possibility of shadowing in some of the more, shall we say experienced, age classes. We were thinking of making it available at local events to see if some competitors might actually like it and be glad it was offered or if they would actively dislike it.

We are also planning to start offering two brown courses at A events, one specifically with the older age categories in mind, and would encourage other clubs to consider it as well.

In a ad blurb for Tufts Univ. Health and Nutrition Letter it says: "What's the recommended dose of Glucosamine and Chondroitin for arthritis? Zero. They don't work. Period." I also take it, haven't decided whether I'll stop.

Ain't gonna stop. The same research also says it doesn't hurt, and my personal experience is so positive...

Ain't gonna stop. The same research also says it doesn't hurt, and my personal experience is so positive...

Mine too. I notice a difference when I forget to take my regular dose for a couple of days (and since I'm not "actively forgetting" I perceive the difference is not psychological/psychosomatic but actually physical).

The doubters may continue doubting, but if they don't bother to try it, I'd say it's their loss (except for those who should avoid the pills due to allergies, as Donna mentioned).

And I've tried it on two different occasions over the last five years, both for six months, and found no effect.

USOF should get some of those GPS chips. Forget the elites, require them instead of whistles..

I like that idea, coach!!

Seems to me we used to shadow Ruth Crawford sometimes.

Peter, you made an investment some time ago in shadowing Jessica. She is at least theoretically an F-21, although she has never competed as one. Perhaps it is time she returned the favor.

Ruth reached a point where we told Sharon that she wasn't allowed to send her mother out any more without a shadow.

I've been taking glucosamine chondroitin (with MSM) for several years. When I run out and forget to buy more, within a week or two or three my knees start bothering me again. I take about a third of the recommended dosage (usually they say three pills a day; I just take one).
Let the studies say whatever they want; I find the stuff helps me so I'll continue taking it.

Peter, you made an investment some time ago in shadowing Jessica. She is at least theoretically an F-21, although she has never competed as one. Perhaps it is time she returned the favor.

At some point today -- maybe at the same time Charlie was writing this -- the same thought popped into my mind! No kidding. I don't remember when or why.

Now, thinking about being shadowed by Jessica, or any other F21, could be either a total waste of my few remaining brain cells, or an excellent use of them. Haven't decided which, though I think I'm leaning toward the latter.