Discussion: Team roles

So far I have only had inexperienced teammates and I have been the main navigator during rogaine and AR events. I asked for a teammate my first event which was a 6-hr rogaine but I had to enlist my neighbor since there were no openings. Anyway, I wonder how roles work on more experienced teams. From reading race reports, it appears common only to have one navigator. I would think somebody else on the team would be responsible for that passport and the navigator would orientate at each CP. Is this how it works? Are there any other techniques you use on teams?

Thanks.

I think more than one 'alpha-navigators' on a team is a hindrance. When given the chance to go solo in a Rogaine I'll always take it and I usually can beat slightly superior runners just on the time they have to spend discussing their route choices.
One division of tasks on a 3-person team I joined was one navigator, one older guy who's task was to bring our average age in to the super veteran category and one younger, very fit runner who often tied a bungy cord between himself and the old guy to pull the latter along.

The better navigator will usually have periods in a long event when they are off colour. Then they cease to be the better navigator.

Gord, I would actually disagree (perhaps depending on the team and the people involved).

When Robbie, Eric, and I ran the Raid the Hammer together a few years ago we actually found it hugely beneficial that all three of us were accomplished navigators. The event was four hours long and we were pushing hard. At various points in the race we each lagged and others felt strong so could take over. We also avoided several mistakes by having backup navigators speak up when they thought one of the others is making a mistake.

Of course we've trained and raced together so many times that we know each other and each other's orienteering styles very well. Perhaps it would not have worked as well if we didn't know each that well.

My thoughts are that more than one navigator is an advantage. In a rogaine where you have multiple maps, you may often have one person who is 'responsible' for the navigation for any given leg, but having a second person who is also a good navigator allows a double check, which becomes particlarly important when the lead navigator hits a flat patch or loses track of things. No need to discuss each leg while things are going well. You shouldn't need to discuss route choices much as these should be determined before you start.

In an AR you often only have one set of maps, so usually one person is responsible for navigation for an entire leg, but like gruver says, particularly in longer races having a second navigator that can pick up the pieces is very handy.

I've raced as the only person on a team that could read a map for 24 hrs. That makes for a pretty intense race compared to similar races where I have nav'ed the run but sat back on the bike and paddle or not nav'ed at all.

I usually can beat slightly superior runners just on the time they have to spend discussing their route choices

I did a rogaine recently with a couple of new partners - they normally rogaine as a group of 5 where *all* of them navigate all the time. It seems to work for them, in that they pick up each other's mistakes, but what I really noticed when they went with me was how much time they spent standing still discussing what to do.

It was a completely foreign concept to me, that you
a) would need to stop walking to read the map, or
b) wouldn't have spent most of the previous leg thinking about the next one.
Having multiple navigators doesn't need to make you slower, they just have to used to thinking on the move.

Rogaines: I've mostly done it as teams of two and both of us could navigate fairly well. We are both keeping track of where we are on the map, the person who happens to be in front chooses the micro route choices and the person at the back is either suffering and just following or is checking for mistakes. Macro route choices between controls is normally discussed while running/walking on the previous leg or earlier, no time is lost doing this.
I definitely enjoy racing with someone else who can navigate well because we end up doing well and if one of us feels crap for a while the other one just takes over doing most of the nav. And even when you feel crap you can still read the map well enough to spot mistakes.
There's never been arguments having two navigators, it's normally really obvious once someone points out that you've made a mistake. I've seen the odd team having arguments over where they are or which way they should go but I think that happens on teams where people can't navigate well enough. It's pretty easy to put forward a list of reasons why we are in a certain place and can't be where they think they are. For route choice it should be obvious if one is faster than the other, if not then it doesn't really matter which one is taken.

I've also done a few race with people who can't navigate or are really poor at it. Normally they aren't as fit so what ends up happening is they put the map away and just follow. No backup if I make a mistake but normally they are less fit so you're not really oxygen deprived and going to make a mistake anyway.

So for rogaines having two good navigators is definitely a positive thing in my opinion.

For adventure racing I can't work out why most teams have such poor 'navigators'. You would think it's a really important skill to have in a team especially for the expedition style races where you actually need to be able to read a map well. But you never hear of teams trying to find a good navigator they all just seem to have average navigators.

Really? Adventure racers put a high priority on good navigation skills in our neck of the woods.

I agree with the comments about rogaining with two navigators on the team. In my early years of racing, I often had full or near-full responsibility for navigating for 24+ hours. I enjoyed it but over time I came to appreciate the benefits of having two teammates with their minds in the game. These days, I much prefer to do 24-hr rogaines with a teammate who is a full partner in the mental and physical aspects of the race. One caveat... As Juffy pointed out, there is no time for democracy or long discussions during a race so the teammates have to make quick decisions and not quibble over the little stuff. In some cases, it may help to agree up front which teammate's decision will be final in the event of a disagreement, i.e. who is the primary navigator?

In adventure racing, even though we only get one map most of the time, there are still lots of ways to turn navigation into a team activity. A good navigator will talk to the team and take advantage of their eyes and ears, e.g. "We're going over a big hill, then we should see a trail partway down." "We're riding 5 km, then turning left onto an ATV trail across from a swamp." "The next checkpoint is at a waterfall so we should hear it before we see it." The navigator can ask one person to follow a bearing and choose the best line through the forest. Another teammate may be asked to time a section or do a pace count. In addition to the help this gives the navigator, it keeps the team alert and involved.

...you never hear of teams trying to find a good navigator they all just seem to have average navigators

You'd have to acknowledge the odd exception wouldn't you Greig:-))

For adventure racing I can't work out why most teams have such poor 'navigators'.

It's the hardest thing to practice. I can ride my bike out of my driveway, ditto the run, and I have a rowing machine in the basement. This makes all of them trivial to do on a workday. If I want to practice nav, that means a weekend so I can drive to a park with terrain, assuming there's no family functions, and then I have to decide if we will try to round up other off trail enthusiasts and hang some streamers or flags, or else just clomp around and check my gps track afterwards to see how much I was off.

I've only done a few rogaines over the years, but I have always thought that the best team would consist of 1. a great navigator and 2. a great runner, who carried the food and water and shut up and didn't try to navigate.
Why would anyone need to second guess a Peter Gagarin or a Sharon Crawford? Their route planning and execution are so superior any collaboration would just slow them down.

Peter has expressed a similar idea, although I think he wants Team Member #2 to also carry him.

As most rogainers are neither quite as good at navigation for their own age group and part of the world as Peter or Sharon are in this neck of the woods, nor enough physically stronger to be able to keep up speed with them but carry all the load, the more average rogainer is likely considering compromises different from what Geoman has proposed. My own impression after having completed a few dozen 24 hour rogaines over the last 20+ years is that it is most satisfactory to have pretty well matched physical capabilities, or the weaker member of the team is likely to try to keep up too fast a pace for the first few hours and break down in the latter part of the event, and that having multiple good navigators is always a plus--it is just too hard to maintain full mental concentration for 24 hours. If the person currently taking the main navigational load starts dozing off a bit, big errors are going to be avoided if there is an adequate backup. And discussion of the route while moving along is often a useful technique to help staying awake and up to speed during the night. It always helps to be familiar with the skills of your partner and to have learned to work efficiently together, of course. Usually I team up with my wife who is on the whole a somewhat better navigator than I am, but at our rogaining pace I am also usually in pretty good contact with the map, and I'm quite sure that we make fewer mistakes as a duo than either of us would alone. On the other hand I've done a moderate number of events either with different partners or wtih a third person on our team, and that has usually worked out fine as well--standing in one place and discussing whose plan to follow doesn't seem to often come up as an issue!

"You'd have to acknowledge the odd exception wouldn't you Greig:-))"

Yes there are definitely exceptions and those teams with good navigators generally do very well. a certain team doing Godzone this year could have been racing for the win if they had someone who could navigate well. When racing in Patagonia earlier this year there was one team that navigated so poorly on the first kayak leg that they needed to be rescued because they no longer knew where they were. Another team spent 7hrs walking down the wrong valley before realising and having to retrace their steps, they eventually pulled out and probably would have missed time cutoffs if they had kept going.

Are there any other techniques you use on teams?

A WeGo or similar is a "must" technique at rogaines. Those who can't or won't use it don't know at how large a disadvantage they are putting their team.

+1 @T/D Even with physically matched teammates, people usually have ups and downs during a 24 hours race

Is T/D a model in at least 2 of the WeGo pictures? If so, who is in the engine room? ;)

In any case, I'm sold!

Buying a WeGo is only half the battle. Then you have to convince teammates that it's not emasculating. :(

Well, yes, humans are weird creatures and will often take steps that are contrary to their stated objectives. Like not using WeGo when it's available, usually for reasons they can't quite enunciate. Or voting in a certain way.

A simple bungy line or rope with a bungy on the end would work in place of the WeGo.

Agree that it is necessary and most efficient except in rare cases with similar strengths.

Agree that it can be difficult to convince people they need it. Good racers know their limits and know what's best for the team. Good teammates are always willing to lend a hand.

Greig
"For adventure racing I can't work out why most teams have such poor 'navigators'"

As you know AR is more than just navigating. I think anyone with strong navigation skills in addition to good teamwork, morale, and some semblance of running/biking/paddling endurance would be welcome on an AR team.

If anyone feels they can do better I say actions speak louder than words. If you know someone who should try AR, tell them. I don't know anyone discouraging them.

Most people do the sport because they enjoy it. Not just because they are good at it. Many of my teammates can navigate better than some orienteers I know but I would not consider them top navigators. They do it because they enjoy it just like any sport. There will be a wide range of abilities just like any sport.

I know TONS of paddlers that are WAY better than me but I don't think they could hold a candle to me in AR. It is the combination of skills. I was a respectable triathlete but I couldn't swim worth a lick. My strength in running and biking made up for that. But people who could swim bike and run fast always beat me.

When it comes down to it the best team wins. If you are strong enough to win with mediocre navigation skills, more power to you. But usually the team that wins is good in all aspects of the sport.

Interesting comments about the interaction with two navigators working together. Have done this in AR with one maps and multiple maps. Lots of different things to consider.

I think a key point to remember is that having two strong navigators is an advantage over one strong navigator with all else being equal (I think it is also more fun for both). In that scenario you use the combination of everyones skills that result in the optimal result. If someone is tired give them a break. If the terrain is tricky get both eyes on the map. It may be feasible that one navigator could be slowing the other down. You really have to assess each situation individually and assess all impacts.

In any case I would think you would want to be moving in a productive direction at all times. Sometimes taking a few seconds is most productive but like others said don't debate over two fairly equivalent options.

Some other roles I have used in races: Bearing taker, altimeter watcher, pace counter, eyes, cp spotter, double checker, someone to bounce ideas off of.

So to get back to the topic of Team Roles in rogaines, and not whether AR's are "good navigators"....

It seems to me that there is not one Perfect Formula of X people doing ABC tasks, but rather social cohesiveness is the most important factor, regardless of how many people you have and what they're doing.

For me, a team of 2 navigators has worked excellent (we won a 9 hour!) but it is not because I think 2 navigators is the best combination for anyone- but because I work well with this particular teammate. We traded the lead naturally, because we know each other well enough to sense when to pick up the slack. We still fall into the trap of standing/discussing every once in a while, but we are doing it less and less as we move toward becoming more competitive with each rogaine.

When making the transition from doing rogaines together 'for fun' and happening to do well, to doing rogaines with intent to podium/win- I make sure to be very explicit about my desires and expectations out of the race. It's very important to go into the event on the same page.

I like our 2 person, 2-navigator team. If I were to add a third, they would have to be a "mule." Someone who was somewhat fitter than us and could carry part of our load, and someone who was not prone to being moody but could maintain our spirits, and someone with a 'caretaker' personality who could make sure everyone is eating/drinking. But they would do no navigating. That would be too many cooks in the kitchen.

Why would anyone need to second guess a Peter Gagarin or a Sharon Crawford?

Thinking back on the one rogaine that I did with Peter, we certainly shared the strategy, and he commented afterwards that there were several places where I caught something that would otherwise have been a time-wasting error. (My biggest shortcoming was that I ran out of gas in the dead of the night, and we had to slow way down from that point on.)