Discussion: SFR Russian e-punching system

2 1/2 years after the last post in the Emit reliability thread http://www.attackpoint.org/discussionthread.jsp/me..., are there been more people out there with experience, etc. with the SFR system? Apparently with updated pricing http://o-wiki.net/index.php?title=SFR-system_orien...

We are considering purchasing this system so reliable intel would be good.

@tRicky.
Geoff Hudson has purchased a set I believe. I think he uses it for a scout street series. You can find his email address on his very dead AP log.
http://www.attackpoint.org/userprofile.jsp/user_33...

What is up with the world? A serious exchange between the two of us.

It's not a exchange yet, Invis, the tricky one hasn't replied ;-)

We know about Geoff's project, and in touch with him already. More interested to know of SFR use in other countries.

So there won't be a serious exchange of views. 8-(

Simmo is on it. I will leave the research to him then put my invaluable view forward when it is time to vote on the matter.

Not really dead Neil, just focusing on something worthwhile for a change (in between bike rides). An excerpt from a recent email describes what we've done and where we're up to...

We've been using the SFR controls for about 18 months now. The hardware seems to be exceptionally reliable - unlike the early days of SI, the SFR folks seem to have come up with a winner in their first incarnation. The software that they supply (free of charge) is quite difficult to use - I did run 10-15 events with it, but it's difficult to learn and is not particularly flexible. To address this, we've built our own system...let me tell you about it.

We've built an event management system (called OScor at the moment)...my primary goal is to reduce volunteer effort - and to eliminate the need for IT literate people in the finish tent. I'm pleased to say that the system that we've built is entirely self-service for regulars and requires minimal input for newbies.

Physically, the system consists of:
A central unit on a Windows tablet (we plan to port the system to Android when time permits); this has an attached RFID reader (although it's worth noting that the Android version won't need a reader as the Android chipset/NFC supports the 15693 tags that SFR uses....ie the Android tablet can read both the tags and the controls directly). The tablet runs the OScor software and provides registration and finish functions. The only other peripheral worthy of mention is an audio amplifier/speaker - I intially displayed error messages in big red letter, but nobody read the messages. Now, the system announces them loudly and tells the people what they need to do (e.g. This tag is not cleared, please clear your tag and try again ...or Please punch the finish control and download again). Cost about $400 for the tablet, $130 for the RFID reader.

A second box contains a Linksys Router that I've modified to provide Internet Cafe services; the tablet above automatically connects to the wifi network provided by the router.The router cost me 5 cents on eBay and it runs off a 12 volt battery in the same box. All it has is an ON/OFF switch. Total cost - 5 cents.

The other units are remote displays - I've packaged a few 22 inch monitors in waterproof enclosures. Coupled with some 12 volt batteries and a tiny computer known as a Raspberry Pi, these units provide the ability to display entries, results, runners still out and various admin messages. My initial version was wire-connected but everybody clustered around the finish table when I did this. By going to wifi connection, I move the crowds away from the finish table.
Operationally, we arrive at an event - put out the router and turn it on. We then turn on the tablet and it connects to the router. We then place and turn on the displays and they detect when the wifi network is up and ask the central tablet what files should be displayed. At the moment, the system just scrolls through the entries, the list of runners still out and the results for each course...but it is our intention to provide a display control capability to customise what is displayed on each monitor and for how long.

Note that anybody with a tablet, iPad or smartphone can connect to streetO WiFi. When they do this it displays an advertisement telling them that there's an orienteering event nearby and inviting them to come over and join us. All reports, results, splits etc can be obtained via the WiFi interface.

We did buy a few of the SFR tags, but it proved cheaper to make our own. We purchased the RFID inserts and laminated them with a number on one side and a scale bar on the other. We've added a small amount of double sided velcro to allow it to be attached to the entrant's finger and we ended up with a tag cost of about $1 per tag.If we purchase inserts in quantity, I believe that we can get them down to 28 cents per insert and thereby achieve a price of 50 cents per tag.

The tags are colour coded by range. Tags 1-300 are for regulars - the central tablet knows who owns which tag and what course they did last time. When they arrive at an event, they grab their tag, clear it and swipe it over the download station to say they're present. They can then proceed to the start control, take a map from a box and press the start control to commence their course. When they finish, they press the finish control and proceed to the download station. Five to ten seconds after they download the results screens around the arena update and their result is displayed.

We need to record the names of newbies - so there are a set of colour coded forms for them to do this. At the moment we offer a bike course and adult runner, adult walker and junior course. Each course has a different entry form and the colours of these are the same colour as the tags (ie I've got yellow tags 400-499 for juniors, orange tags 500-699 for adult runners and blue tags/forms for adult walkers with numbers 700-899). People have little trouble working out which course to do, the forms are pretty obvious - and with matching colour tags, things can't get much easier.

If we have pre-entry for a large group of people, I simply pre-assign them to specific visitor tags in the appropriate range and put the list on the registration table. As they arrive, they check which tag is theirs and take it through the same process as for permanents.

In addition to the displays provided, the system exports entry/result data every 10 seconds. At the moment, I open this in Excel and produce the results from there, but I plan to provide the reporting routines in the Oscor program when time permits. My ultimate goal is for the tablet to connect to our website via a 3G connection and publish the results before we leave the event site. Then I can just go home and relax over dinner and glass of good wine.

At the moment, the software supports Score courses only - but the plan is to extend this to scatter and line courses in the near future. I'm putting in scatter functionality at the moment - and hope to have this ready in a few weeks. I'll attach a sample event file that will give you the general idea - my apologies - it's in XML at the moment, but we'll write an event editor at a later date. One feature of our design is that it not only supports score/scatter/line courses....but any combination of these. We run in some very small areas here in Melbourne - so the idea of running a line course intially and then a score or scatter leg allows us to increase the distance.

I'd be happy to keep you in the loop re progress here and can send you a copy of the current version if you'd like to try it out.

Thanks for the enquiry - we're really excited by the system here and the folks that take part in our events really love it. I'm assuming from your comments that you've seen our website at http://street.orienteering.com.au/ - but if not, have a look at the results displayed there....they're pretty basic at the moment, but we'll make them look more comprehensive/prettier as time permits.

My dead reference was to the AP handle...
BTW I'm impressed.

Sounds amazing. It seems like it would be relatively straightforward for your wifi invite to have a link to event registration (and payment), so that could be done by people with smartphones, rather than you entering the data.

OE2010 supports both SI and Emit, so presumably it would not be all that difficult for OE2010 and other event management software to support SFR (not sure to what extent other software supports Geoff's ideas). Even though the hardware is cheap (competitor cards especially, although the boxes are maybe half the price of SI boxes according to SFR's 2009 doco), it's never going to be a serious contender without comprehensive software support. As regards IOF endorsement, support from a user base might provide the impetus needed to get that endorsement, and comprehensive event management software would go a long way to expanding the user base. If the hardware is as reliable as Geoff asserts, rule 20.4 might not be quite as contentious with SFR as it currently is with SI.

Thanatomimesis, I'm very impressed with your drive and ingenuity to achieve all that!

For general orienteering events, the Israel Sport Orienteering Association has been using the Emit system for about a decade. A year ago, the ISOA purchased a SFR system, and has been using/testing it at interscholastic orienteering competitions and for fitness testing for the Israeli military.
The ISOA's general manager, Ziv Noiman, has the most experience with the system, and is extremely pleased with it. He reports that the software is easy to work with, but he is always interested in testing other software. To date, he has handled over 10,000 participants/competitors without any significant problem. The great advantage of the system is the low cost of the tags. Feel free to contact Ziv at ISOA if you want to learn more about his experience with the system.

I used this system once at the city Rogaine in Russia. I was pleasantly surprised by the simplicity and reliability of the system. Vandals burned one box, but it worked fine even though it looked like a piece of charred plastic.
We also want to buy the system and I am very interested if used outside Russia. I have questions for Thanatomimesis:
1. You wrote that did own tags. Do you think what would be if the manufacturer will read your message here? I know that sportident stops warranty and support if the box seen at least one cloned tag. For us it is important that we are not so far from Russia and do not want to spoil the relationship immediately. But the possibility to produce tags at home is tempting.
2. As a manufacturer responded to the creation of the software? Was there any support?

Can't find it now, but SFR put out a pdf in English, which I think said that any RFID could be used with their stations (and the stations certainly accept SI Cards), so I don't think they would be worried.

Interesting point about the burnt out station! In Australia though most vandals would try to steal it, not burn it.

I think that SFR is not compatible with SI. Different frequencies.

@ Poder: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2f28TbmsS00

It's impossible!
SI : 125 KHz
SFR: 13,56 MHz

The working frequence of SFR is 100 times more!
Video is not from official site and the box (or case) is non-standard!

They show it beeping, but does it actually record proper information onto the SI stick?

I don't know.
But the date of publication 01 apr. 2010 guards... This is April Fools' day and it may be trick. And non-standart case... And no information about compatibility on official site...

Other than sticker labels, it looks like a standard molded case. As Poder points out, the fact that it beeps in the presence of the SI stick does not prove it actually writes info to the SI stick. So would be good to get confirmation from someone that it actually does.

The cases appear to be completely molded, which makes them uber waterproof (if the switch is reliable you could probably hang these underwater without any problem). Clearly you can incinerate them to some degree :), although there is certainly a limit to that. I wouldn't recommend burning them on a regular basis.

It appears that the battery is molded in, so when the battery dies you throw out the whole unit and buy a new one (batt not replaceable)? Batt is the same as the BSF7 Saft (with option for a slightly larger one). In "button press to punch" mode, which uses less power than an actively polling mode (like SI), they quote a battery life of 10 years. My guess is if you use it in poll-mode the batt life is closer to the SI batt life of 4-5 years, but I'm just reading between the lines of their pamphlet. The waterproofness is certainly a plus of the molded design, aside from the fixed battery lifetime. The SI BSF8's occasionally have seal failures and get wet (but can usually be dried and re-sealed with no permanent damage to the unit). The BSF8 seal design is poor in my opinion. Its a hassle to deal with. The BSF7's seals are much more robust and easier to work with, although those units are bulkier.

Eddie's post reminds me of a thread I need to start...

For interest, this is the IOF's approval process.
http://orienteering.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/08...
Does anyone know if each addition to the product line of approved suppliers has to be certified before it can be used in higher level competitions?

Wow! SFR site posted a picture of the new box!
http://sportsystem.ru/images/stories/u5forsite.jpg

Looks great, but what's inside is not written ...

It looks like a block of cheddar jack cheese :)

Does anyone know if each addition to the product line of approved suppliers has to be certified before it can be used in higher level competitions?

I don't believe so. Certainly we haven't considered any new product lines of either Emit or SI in my time on the Foot Orienteering Commission.

Anyone using the Chinese LearnJoy system?

tRicky's trying - but having communication issues.

Learn Joy was at a WOC many years ago, the salesman thought that a selling point of the system was it WASN'T compatible with SI, I thought not

bOrat: Electronic Learnings of Sport Ident for Make Benefit Glorious Nation of China

Here's a link to something that suggest the SFR system can read SI. It is translated using Google so doesn't read as it probably should. BUT, the date at the bottom says 2004 so maybe, 8 years ago the system was somewhat compatible with SI but maybe they aren't now.
http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=de&sl=ru&...

I do not think that page says that SFR can read SI.

It describes an emulator that you can use on your PC to make a SFR station pretend it is an SI-station, so that if you have an event which has both SFR and SI stations, then you'd be able to use whatever SI-compatible software to produce the combined results. The emulator creates a new "virtual" COM port to which an SI-compatible software can connect, and it will behave as if it is an SI station. Not sure if "emulator" is the right term, it's more like a software translator/bridge from SFR to SI.

Yes, all the page says is that there is a way to use the same software to talk to the two kinds of hardware master stations.

I received an official response from the manufacturer. They do not mind self-production of tags and support the creation of software.

What contact information did you use to contact the manufacturer? I have tried to get a quotation for some of their equipment using contact information on their website, and have received no response. Since I really would be interested in using some of their equipment for rogaining, I would like to know how to get in touch with them!

Just wait. New year and Christmas holidays in Russia continues from 1st to 13th January.

So more than the traditional '12 days of Christmas'?

sfr-system@mail.ru.
Yes, response on mail dated 06.01 received 14.01. Too long holidays! Happy russians!

Eastern Orthodox Christmas. Different calendar.

http://orienteering.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/01... (page 6)

My apologies to those that left questions - I'm an infrequent user of Attackpoint.

Re SFR reading SI; I've tried this, it didn't work.

The software that we've written uses a simple driver to read sticks and write the data to an audit file. The back-end software (and backup system connected via WiFi) read the audit trail and update the internal database. ie simply by writing a driver for SI (which I've done in the past)...everything our self-service system does for SFR could be done equally as well by SI.

SFR don't mind if we create our own tags; it was Alex K (the owner) who showed me how to do this.

I don't really care about IOF certification; in spite of being somewhat dated and perhaps poorly implemented, SI has a vertical market advantage over any new entrant. It's the accepted way of doing things - and if it isn't broken, we shouldn't touch it.

As it stands, the SFR system is a terrific choice for club/local events - ie those not requiring IOF endorsement.

The system that we've produced is just a prototype and is evolving/improving as time permits. I've used the current version to run 24 score, scatter and line courses over the past 6 months for - with average attendance of 60-80 people. We're repackaging the prototype at the moment - weatherproof boxes with an ON/OFF switch and a recharging socket - we've proved that the concept works and just need to package it so anyone that wants to can use it.

It is my intention to port the system to Android - and I note that the Android reference platform supports NFC and 15693 RFID....ie there is no need to buy a download control...Android tablets read the SFR chips natively! This is quite significant - with Android implementations getting cheaper and smaller (e.g. in a wristwatch), we could reverse the model - stick the 28 cent RFID tag on to an orienteering plate and the runner carries a rechargeable reader around. Downloading could then be achieved using the NFC support.

This is a fascinating field - and the technology has changed dramatically in the past 12-24 months. The interesting thing to me is to reduce the volunteer effort required to run events...I was amused (bemused) to see that our recent Easter Carnival took a trailer load of SI gear and and an additional truckload of other equipment out into the field.

We originally deployed SI to reduce volunteer effort in the finish tent. Sadly, I don't think things have worked out quite as well as we might have hoped...