Discussion: More permanent courses!

How many of you have had this conversation with a newbie after their first O outing?

you: How did it go?
newbie: I had a great time! When can I try it again?
you: Err... we have an event in a couple of weeks at ______ park.
newbie: but that's 50 miles from here, and I have a wedding to go to that weekend - when will you be back to this park again?
you: Errr... maybe next year? Keep an eye on our schedule.

What if you could say:

"Go to our website and download a copy of our permanent course map for this park. There are some sample courses you could try on your own."

Woudn't more people give it a second try while the interest is still high and maybe get hooked?

And what about serious competitors looking for a training run. Wouldn't having a quality map with enough technical, useful control locations to be able to compose your own legs for training be a boon to the general quality of competition?

So why don't we have more permanent courses, beyond the occasional Eagle Scout project?

Probably because they are a lot of work to create and maintain, physically and administratively, with little immediate visible return, thus little incentive for an individual or club to take on.

Maybe OUSA or some enlightend club can provide some monetary incentive to build and maintain some courses and see if anything positive comes of it...

What would it actually take?

The maps and courses we have from previous events. I would propose permanent markers for 2 W, 2Y, 2 O and 2 B/G/R courses (about 75 controls max - fewer with common controls)

Keep the controls low cost and low environmental impact - a stake you can drive into the ground like an e-control holder. (or maybe a virtual control - can you program a GPS to beep when you get into the control circle?)

Make electronic copies available on-line or paper copies easily available (at a park office or by mail with SASE)
(let's not get into the intellectual property debate about online maps here - each club can work that out on their own.)

I'm guessing permits and liability are the biggest obstacle, parks may not want to encourage unmonitored off-trail use.

What do you all think?

I think permanent courses in easily accessible locations (and printable maps) are a great idea. And I think maybe one of the reasons there aren't more is because the current club memberships aren't that interested in using them. And I agree that they could be a good tool for helping to keep the newly interested.

The Tucson club has a few and I've both used one myself and pointed other people to it. Not sure how often they're used, but it would be interested to find out if they help.

This might be a nice project to try to push, though unless we can gather a lot of countable 'starts' from it then it might not be in line with the current push.

In Ire, we set up a couple of o course. The controls are pretty hard to mash up.
We dug a hole, sunk the stake, added some cement, the filled it in and fairly compressed the whole thing. Took a fair amount of effort, but they are mostly all still in place.

Coillte run all the forests over here and they were involved in the setting up of the whole thing. Maps are in generally in accessible areas.

Site with maps down the right

Minnesota has a number of permanent courses, I have done them myself as well as with others.
The first time was a few years ago and I think there was some note that I could upload my time on the MNOC website-- although I never found where.... maybe I misread.
It would be good to have a common place to direct people to compare total time on permanent courses (self-reported) or even splits..... might be a good "landing" page for potential new orienteers.
I know I would have liked to have some feedback on how I compared.

I was that newbie last year but Rochester, NY does have 3 really good Perm courses but its still 75 miles away from me but i was just glad to be able to go out on my own and "practice" going from controls that are quite far apart. My other option was to buy blank O maps from my closer club CNYO and create my own course before i set out and run that course--not as good as permanent controls but still worth it

I think permanent courses are a thing of the past or perhaps the future, due to the reasons Jason mentions. The return does not support the investment. I have a somewhat different idea: Have a RouteGadget page to which people can upload GPS-tracker course reruns. No markers required. You won't get immediate feedback on whether you were in the right place, but that's what you pay big bucks for when you enter an event.

There is a new course at Yellow Creek state park in western Pennsylvania.

Click on "Permanent Courses" link in this website for a map.

ROC has several permanent courses at recognizable parks across the area, and sells oversized maps at our events and also through a couple retailers. They seem to fill the need for those looking to try it out. We charge $5 and give a $5 voucher to those that send back the completed postcard. These use wooden posts and markers, and are completed in a score-O fashion.

A new concept we hope to implement soon is a seasonal "map run" that would feature a semi-permanent course and some sort of downloadable map. Take a few reflective markers and attach them around a tree for example and call that a control. Put these up in a park at the beginning of the season and offer that specific course as an event that may be completed at any time, on your own, on your honor - and setup some sort of page to gather results through the season. Take down and setup the next year with a different park and course. If received well we'd have 2-4 of these up in parks each year.

How many do you sell?

Permanent courses need extra attention to environmental impact. I've seen pretty bad erosion on some of them. The seasonal course described by ccsteve should be better in this regards.

Buffalo Orienteering Club has been setting up variations of this for years, calling them Map Hikes. The control sites vary from somewhat easy to advanced level. The small Trim markers can sometimes add additional (unintentional) difficulty. It is not at all uncommon to sell the Map Hike maps ($7 each, discount for a set) to newbies after having just the conversation that jjtong imagined to start this thread. Various door prizes (often next year's hikes) are awarded annually to those who return the postcards.

Before you ask, T/D, I don't have the sales numbers, though I have now emailed our club contact asking about that, but I can say that I have crossed paths with Map Hikers many times while either training on my own or vetting future courses. I will update with sales numbers if/when I get an answer.

All the Swedish clubs I know hang biodegradeable streamers at the start of the season and they're gone after winter. People can download maps from the website or pay a small amount for them from a local shop. This is a lot easier than putting the effort into a permananent course, and has the advantage that it can change every year.

When I was Oxford we built a permanent course in one of the local parks, and it was amazing how quickly it deteriorated. Rugby players using them for stretches, gnawed by animals, all that nonsense. I have seen plaques on trees used more successfully. There's a ton of permanent course at home but they very rarely have advanced courses, so they're more used for school groups and scouts.

I like streamers in woods though. Minimal, and not too official either. I kind of did it at Ansonia this year and tons of people got use out of them - made it worth the two hours I spent in the woods and two hours planning.

I guess the main problem is that streamers for beginners are more likely to go missing, being near trails.

I have set up a permanent course on the local map in Wolfeboro, NH. It was used by the local prep school for their summer students, exposing about 90 kids to the sport as well as a dozen counselors. Since that time, quite a few people have used it on their own and then the local Park and Rec. Dept. had a "treasure hunt" using it. This course has punches attached to the trees so you can show you were there.

I set a permanent course in Macedonia Park, Kent, CT. when I lived there and was surprised a year later to go back and check the controls and find someone else had put punches on the trees. I never did find out who but it showed that people were interested. People can use them when they have time. If they get interested enough, then they may start going to meets.

I would be interested in hearing suggestions for how OUSA might get involved.

Clubs in the US known to have permanent O'courses are listed at URL:
http://orienteeringusa.org/new-o/resources/permane...

If your club isn't listed, please update the OUSA webmaster!

MNOC has 9 permanent courses (see http://mnoc.org/poc.shtml ). We sell the maps (sealed in plastic bag) for $4 (8.5 x 11 size) and $5 for 11 x 17) + $2 - 3 shipping and handling (w/discounts for qty) on our website and at events. The POC map's are also available at the parks if there is a suitable sales location (park office typically) In all MNOC has net income of around $1000/year from POC map sales (main expense is paper, ink, bags and postage).

POC posts are checked annually by MNOC folks, but posts were installed and paid for by parks. POC's are excellent way for folks to try the sport out on their own time (or during school day etc when no meets available). The POC's seem to be an excellent feeder system for our club.

Peter, Thanks for your interest in getting OUSA involved. I think the small sample of replies shows that while most clubs have a few permanent courses, it is more of an afterthought. (MNOC and BOC the exception) OUSA could take the lead and somehow incentivize (is that a word?) clubs to develop and maintain more courses. Maybe a tie-in with NOD. All NOD events to be run on permanent courses to introduce the sport and the course at the same time. If each club had 4-5 permanent courses, then an NOD event could be held on each one with a minimum of workers needed - no course setting or control hanging - just registration and instruction. (I think NOD events should be free and pitched towards the non-orienteering public, but that's another thread)

OUSA could also collect and develop best practices, and provide standard guidelines for clubs - maybe investigate the best "technology" for the controls (biodegradable, seasonal, 'virtual')

I'm surprised that no one has mentioned the use of permanent controls for training. Maybe hardcore AP'ers 'don't need no stinkin' controls', but I think it would be a boon to the less serious runner who wants run a few legs for practice without waiting for an event, but isn't good enough to plot and run a challenging leg without controls already in place. If regular O'er saw some value in a Permanent course, clubs would be more willing to create and maintain them.

PS - Looking through the links to Permanent courses on the OUSA site (thanks Greg) there are a lot more out there than I initially thought, but I'm not sure how well they are promoted or maintained.

A couple of things we do to make it easy for beginners and interesting for advanced is very simple:

1) Courses have ~ 25 points : typically A- F are easy and on trails, G - N intermediate and O - Z advanced controls. Makes it very easy for all to select right difficulty and have fun / success

2) "Scrabble O" : training for the hard core: each runner selects ~ 10 letters at random (we use the wooden tiles found in the game Scrabble) and has to run those POC points in that order . So it works all the combinations and stops the POC becoming stale. It is fun way to train with friends and with a 10 letter combination the lengths all average out to close to the same .

I would be interested in hearing suggestions for how OUSA might get involved.

Hopefully this doesn't sound too preachy, but I think a lot about how OUSA could expand, so here goes. Find someone who is passionate with ideas of what they want to do. Here is your team leader. Approach him or her privately so as not to put him on the spot and let him know how much you like his ideas. Then, build a web of support around your new volunteer. Create discussions on as many orienteering forums across the country as possible and get an article or two into ONA. Spread the word. Approach people who show excitement, let them know you are pulling together a team to move the project forward, and recruit them onto your leader's team. Build a mailing list and give them a free 800 number to teleconference on. Give the team autonomy and a small budget. Don't tell them what to do. Let them know that if they do well, their budget will increase the next year. Announce their successes and progress as they go on to do great things.

Personally, I think Glen has the personality to excel at this kind of team building, and I think that letting the committees self-govern is a great way to show trust and thereby grow the national organization. I would even go so far as to take this approach with the Rules committee and the Sanctioning Committee to decide on Championship bids with the BoD of course having veto power.

Sorry if that turned a little too off topic, so let me just finish by saying that the first orienteering course I did when I moved to my new area was a permanent orienteering course in the local park. The ranger had to take some time to find the map when I asked for it, and it was out of date, but the course was fun and it made for a great day.

we should implement a site like maps.worldofo for permanent courses. jan kocbach does not have the time for that. so if sb has the time and the knowledge..