Discussion: SCVNGR contest (smart phone score-o) giving away cars in 26 US cities

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For those unfamiliar, SCVNGR is a location-based smart-phone app, and when used in contests like these, it's basically an urban orienteering score-o on foot where you score points with your cell phone.

Anyway, SCVNGR teams up with either jewelry stores or car dealerships to have these free events with a big grand prize. Yeah, it's a publicity stunt, but it's one where tech-savvy orienteers will have a big advantage. (A friend and I finished 2nd in 2009 on foot against then-allowed bike teams, and my wife and I finished 2nd this August, losing only to an all-male team).

I'd really like to see some orienteers win these cars, so below is the upcoming schedule.

I should mention that you can play by either iPhone/Android app, or using SMS. It's a huge advantage to play with the app, since you can choose the most efficient route to collect all checkpoints. With SMS, they randomly send you to the next location. Also, when I played in August, the further away checkpoints were worth more points (though they never told us this in the rules). The fine print for these contests says that checkpoints are worth between 2-5 points each, so I assume that it will be similar.

October 22
Albany, NY
Minneapolis, MN

October 23
Syracuse, NY
Buffalo, NY
Duluth, MN
Rochester, MN

October 29
Boston, MA
Oklahoma City, OK
Pittsburgh, PA

October 30
Cleveland, OH
Omaha, NE
Providence, RI

November 5
Seattle, WA
Rochester, NY
Sacramento, CA

November 6
Portland, OR

November 12
Cincinnati, OH

November 13
Houston, TX
Louisville, KY
St. Louis, MO

November 19
Dallas, TX
Fort Worth, TX
Fayetteville, NC
Greensboro, NC
Memphis, TN

November 20
Raliegh, NC
West Palm Beach, FL

October 22 in Albany NY? Arghhh! All the local orienteers will probably be at either the US Champs near Boston... Or at the local O event (rescheduled from next week). :(

Yeah, I know. :(

Our first Winter Series event in Seattle is on November 5th, so I'm locked into that. Maybe I'll go down to Portland for the 6th.

The organizers are just after the publicity buzz, so they don't really care who comes for the competition.

For the race I looked up, you have to reside within 50 miles to win. Plus you have to submit a 500-word spiel to run in the "final".

With the previous SCVNGR runs I've done (both for jewelry stores), we needed to submit a "story" beforehand. Everyone who registered got in the race, no matter how lame the story.

It's basically for promotional purposes, as before the race on the sponsoring radio station, the yippy-yappy DJ's will read some of the best "stories" as to why couples want to win the diamond ring, and then they'll read the winning team's story to everyone right before they announce the winners.

Also: Looks like I won't be going to Portland, as the same 50-mile limit is in effect there, as well. I suppose I could team up with someone in Portland, as per the rules, there is officially only one winner (team rep) despite there being teams of two.

>you have to reside within 50 miles to win.

Do you have to live in the US?

Yes. Legal US residents only. Bummer, dude.

Darn, I'm out of town on the 5th... May be Peteris and I should do this instead of the US Rogaine champs .....

Wow Nikolay, I thought you were kidding...

Peteris needs a partner! the U.S. Champs medals are shiny.

Well, I reckon a team of Nikolay and Eric will be tough to beat. I think the only things that can stop them are either a network/app crash (known to happen with these events) or a radical change in gameplay from the August race that I ran in.

But, from what I'm reading about the events already in the books, the gameplay looks pretty similar.

but you have to pay tax on the car.

Anyone interested in rocking on up to the Boston one tomorrow? Noon to three, they say, partner required.

Just browsing through the facebook pages of the already passed events, looks like there are some complains that the top teams cheated (used cars, had more people split in groups) Other top teams (runner up, 3rd palce) commented that they ran clean)
Looks like the organizers don't care much about enforcing fair play.
@Ben, good luck tomorrow. Let us know how it went.

looks like there are some complains that the top teams cheated

You have to keep in mind that this is a publicity stunt, as I mentioned in my original post. Instead of spending $1million on TV commercials or whatever, Chevy is spending that money by giving away 26 cars in 26 cities, paying SCVNGR for the gaming system, creating some social media buzz, and getting free local radio/TV news coverage. It's all about the buzz, and less about the competition. They don't really care that it's fair, they just care that X amount of people came out for a fun event and were exposed to the product.

In fact, the SCVNGR-based promotional event I did in 2009 was even worse, with this egregious line in the Terms and Conditions: "In the event of a scoring dispute, the contest entities reserve the right to award the grand prize to whomever they choose."

Was it a coincidence that the game mysteriously ended 10 minutes early, the winning team had a cute story where the guy proposed to his girlfriend with the $15,000 diamond ring, and the event organizers never revealed team scores?

When my wife and I ran the August 2011 version (sponsored by a different jewelry store than the first), we found that the competition was a lot more fair, as the terms and conditions didn't include any sketchy statements. But, there were no rules against teammates splitting up, or sharing answers with other teams, and they can't completely prevent cheating. There were allegations of colluding teams at this event, but that's not against the rules, and the organizers don't really care.

That said, they have evolved the game such that cheating wasn't going to determine the winner. My wife and I finished 2nd to a pair of running men, and the 3rd place team also did so legitimately. Yeah, people are going to cheat, but you'd need a pretty sophisticated setup (I can think of one), to beat a team of fast runners who know what they are doing.

Reading what I've found on Facebook and on the web suggests that this game will be played very similarly to how it was done in Seattle in 2011, with the significant difference in that they are allowing iPhone/Android apps in game play. Nikolay should be thankful that I'm going to be giving his team a lot of tips, instead of hoarding them all for myself....

Thanks, Nikolay! Ed Despard and I will give it a shot tomorrow, and I'll keep you posted.

Can't say I'm entirely surprised to hear that people have cheated, and - as Patrick said - that the organizers don't really care, as long as it doesn't affect their goal - which has nothing to do with sportsmanship and everything to do with marketing. I've seen a number of online promotions go through a wild west phase while the competitors kind of circle the contest, probing (and finding!) weaknesses. I cleaned up on a few online scavenger hunts (read: advertisment reading comprehension quiz) until they caught on that some permutation of me and two friends won something like four weeks running - and then they just said we weren't allowed. It's their game, and their perogative. Fortunately, it sounds like things are trending towards a fairer competition.

That said, we'll play a clean game. Unless, of course, there's a particularly compelling grey area to wallowing around in.

And Patrick, if you're looking for guinea pigs to try out any of these prototype tips, I know a guy who can help. Even if those tips involve fuchsia footwear.

Does your scheme involve two sets of identical twins and a cloned smartphone?

No win today for team Ed and Ben. We walked home with just over 140 points, and the winner drove off with 163. The two hours provided were plenty of time to visit all of the 'challenges' at a moderate jog - so fitness (ha!) and orienteering-honed efficiency weren't crushing advantages. We were serious contenders, but stumbled at the end when our slightly flaky iphone went full flake - 20% battery apparently equals 0% battery. We coped by scraping up the last 15-20 points by making shuttle runs out of a nearby apple store, with the phone docked. The weather was pretty crap - cold and rainy - but the slightly shocked apple attendants were cool with our soaked asses.

I'd say these things are pretty winnable - especially ones in smaller markets than Boston. I wouldn't be too surprised if one ends in a tie amongst people who got them all. If you go, bring a cordless phone charger, don't be too willing to skip a challenge, and know your local statues (there was one we couldn't find)

Per Facebook, Eric and Nikolay just won the car in Seattle!

Also, the most prolific urban orienteer in Seattle came in 2nd.

I cleaned up on a few online scavenger hunts (read: advertisment reading comprehension quiz) until they caught on that some permutation of me and two friends won something like four weeks running - and then they just said we weren't allowed.

I suggest finding 2 more friends, whom the organizers do not know (yet).

Congrats Eric and Nikolay!

Wow! Awesome! Congrats to all three!

Nice!

Congrats to Eric and Nikolay--so well deserved!

Way to go!

Orienteers rule!!

...which probably means they will be barred from future SCVNGRs.

Banned for 5 years, it's written in the terms and conditions. Hopefully I won't have a conflict next year, with the top dogs ineligible.

Awesome work, Nikolay!

Patrick, Ben, thanks for the info and detailed accounts of your experiences at the previous SCVNGR events. The event was a blast, and teaming up with Eric was great. I'll write up about the event in a bit today, (now i am at Starbucks enjoing a morning coffee after my sunday run) but just wanted to share the one of the precious moments from the race.

Setup: we approach at a checkpoint, Eric is quicker so he has already opened and read the question on his phone (which is : count the wowels on a phrase written on a long mural along a building wall.) I am fumbling with my phone to look at the next location.
Next thing I look at Eric to my right and he is steadily moving left counting already 20 feet from the start of the mural. My eyes pan left , and left, and more left, and I can't see the end of the mural and the text.... I start jogging left already cursing that it's going to take forever. And probably 80 more feet from where Eric is I see the end of the mural. Thank god that thing has an end . I look for the next checkpoint direction, decide on a route and dig in to find what is the question for it. Eric still counts. I am thinking what's the point he will be off one way or another... Unknown number of eons later, Eric declares: 135 wowels and starts entering the answer. I am thinking aloud, riiiiight you counted corectly 135 letters out of 100 - 120 feet phrase written on a building wall . Surely the app comes back: wrong, try again...... I am thinking, now what ... Eric non challantly says, ' aaaa I must have missed a couple' and enters 137 before I can protest and, behold, the app comes back 'correct'...... I could not stop laughing......

Here's all the detailed info I gave the Boston and Seattle guys, based on my August 2009 and August 2011 experiences. Obviously, Nikolay's account will be a lot more useful for other Chevy Sonic events. Looking forward to reading about it!

Good job!!

Congrats guys! I'm wondering if this is not the most valuable prize ever won by orienteers anywhere (during orienteering or a "similar" event)? At least it seems more than anything ever won in real orienteering. The highest such prize money I can remember is 5000 Euro for a single race (Champ's meeting in Gothenburg 2007) or up to 90 000 SEK (about $13-14000) for a multi-day competition (Swedish 5 days)...

If you're in Rochester, NY on April 14th: http://www.cornellsdiamonddash.com/

It's another SCVNGR race with a hefty prize. When these type of events get announced, this website seems to pick them up: http://www.cellhunts.com/

Two of these are hitting up the O' zone this weekend.

April 28th in Hartford and Albany (also Greenville, SC)

On May 5th, Fredericksburg, VA and Harrisburg, VA
http://www.cellhunts.com/

Only in America...

Pink Socks, thanks for posting. This is all very interesting. One very serious limitation that we found in setting up location-based sports and games is getting permits to hang an orienteering control. That white-and-red flag is just scary. The alternative is to still give a map to the participants with the circled locations marked on it, and then for each location, ask a question that can be answered with information obtainable once on the location. This way, participants are just your usual pedestrians walking and stopping on public sidewalks - no permit required for doing that. This app on mobile technology, now ubiquitous, might just make map-based and/or location/aware activities in an urban setting more popular.

You could also come up with some distinctive alternative marker that doesn't look as scary as a control...

I've got an account with SCVNGR that allows me to build events, so I've built some of the 'Hood Hunts there (flagless). There's also Lavahound, which is another location-based gaming app.

I know that Vlad has been experimenting with smartphone-based scoring systems for Street Scrambles in the Bay Area, too.

If I were in charge of O-USA, I'd seriously try to partner up with one of these location-based gaming apps, where we can build and share our flagless urban events, our marked permanent courses, and have the ability to use the smartphone app to find, attend, and participate at a live event (flagged or flagless).

Yes, yes, this doesn't mix well with that GPS ban everyone is screaming about, but I'm pro-growth and pro-youth. And usage of GPS is growing, usage of smartphones is growing, usage of location-based social media is growing, especially with younger people.

can you imagine: a smartphone app that automatically tells facebook etc. when you get to a certain control (like a radio control or a pre-warning control).

I hear what you're saying Pink Socks-- but I think we could also take the angle of: "GO VINTAGE/RETRO/OLD SCHOOL" as that's also 'in' right now.

I'm with you PinkSocks. An easy smart-phone based app, coupled with a web-based interface would be awesome.

Make a simple course design tool, where you mark a start, some checkpoints, and a finish on top of a flexible map interface like Caltopo.com. The course designer just has to pick an off-the-shelf map template (gmap photos, usgs, etc...). You could view this on your phone, or you could easily print the map onto an 8.5x11 sheet of paper at an appropriate scale. Some clubs will probably want a way to upload georeferenced o-maps as backgrounds - but this can wait till version 2.

This becomes a great way to facilitate orienteering for people who don't have a lot of expertise and equipment. A local college guy who wants to design a course for his buddies can do it without needing to make any special maps, or buy any special equipment except a web browser and a printer.

Now couple with that an online space, where you can share your course the way geocachers do. Add a phone app, a results board, and yelp-style course rankings for good measure. Now people can download the map and the course specs to their phone, and they are good to go. When people are on their course, their GPS tells them when they found each checkpoint, and then lets them upload the results when they finish.

Now you don't even need control bags, finish clocks, or anything. And it wouldn't be limited to urban environments. A guy down in Sacramento designed what he called "mountain orienteering" courses a couple years ago.

They were super fun, ultra long orienteering courses, and didn't need special O-maps. He mailed you a USGS map, a GPS logger, and a list of coordinates. You plot the checkpoints on the map, then mail back the GPS logger to prove you completed the course. He had to hang a piece of flagging tape in terrain, so you knew when you found each checkpoint.

Now imagine the smartphone based version. No need to mail the map. No need to plot coordinates. No need to mail a GPS. No need to hang bags in the field. Everything is taken care of. Orienteering accessible to the masses.

Orienteering accessible to the masses.

Orienteering is so far from mainstream that even hipsters don't know we exist.

We are currently vintage all the way. Look at the O-USA calendar it's 100% vintage events. This is not going to change soon.
Introducing alternative formats is the way to attract new participants and from there possibly some sponsors.

SCVNGR, CityChase, Great Urban Race, Warrior Dash, Tough Mudder. Those are all businesses that are new(-ish), that are highly profitable, that are still growing, and that use as a selling point what orienteering offers, namely ( competitiveness, finding stuff, solving puzzles, getting dirty, offering that primal feeling running naked in the wild (ok, ok, in pajamas).

And yet, aside from couple of businesses trying to wade their feet into that market (GetLost, MerGeo), a couple of clubs interested in experimenting with the format (COC, ???) and a totally awesome recent Meet Director creating his own Hood Hunt series, there seems to be no action or desire or initiative in OUSA to make partnerships with those businesses, or at least to initiate conversations with them.

It is totally fine if we are satisfied with the status-quo of our sport right now, but in that case I don't want to see in every AP thread and every conversation I have about orienteering, comments about how to grow our sport and complains about how small and unpopular it is.......

Here, there are at least 5 - 10 successful ways to grow our sport all happening in front of our eyes right now. Utilizing those does not mean the "vintage" version of the sport needs to change. It could very well mean building a very healthy high performance program, plus funds for making many new maps, plus high visibility for the vintage events, plus tons of volunteers from a huge local member base.

"Orienteering is so far from mainstream that even hipsters don't know we exist."

Every kid knows what a scavenger hunt and egg hunt is. And with the recent explosion of the "extreme" 5K mud runs almost every person knows what those are.

Who cares how the 2025 Orienteering world championships will be called if everyone knows about it and follows it. It includes lets say some vintage events plus couple of GPS aided, iPad 14 enabled urban races. And it features pro athletes funded and sponsored by those local mud runs and scavenger hunts.

Vlad has been experimenting with smartphone-based scoring systems

The system is completely operational as of Millbrae Street Scramble 2012. Some "vintagers" strongly dislike having anything to do with a cellphone on the course, as opposed to the circle-it vintage method, but otherwise the system works, results are instantaneous and paper score sheets are no longer necessary.

As an organizer, I think I'm quite a bit past the rosy phase Socks, Ben, and Nikolay seem to be in. I'm starting to see that the anticipated crossover may be quite hard to reach. It may still work, but there is no easy money/magic model/miracle attendance, and there is some more understanding to be achieved and work to be invested beyond just putting Street Scramble out there regularly and making sure your desired audience knows about it.

The key seems to be knowing who you are selling to and what the demographic wants. With the flip-the-fish events (Rex's term), it wants something that we (the "navigators") aren't used to offering. It's all about providing entertainment. You can have the best map or/and the slickest cellphone app, and perhaps great checkpoint locations and an awesome route-optimization challenge, and you may also have cool prizes, but without knowing how to entertain your guests so that they have a unique memory and keep talking about it with their friends and in social media, the events aren't going to be as successful as flip-the-fish clones. Note that many of the clones barely have results, but most do have beer, and beer is as much a requirement at a mudder as is mud.

Besides beer, a central, dense urban location seems to be key. Suburban locations don't work as well for us, and fishes rarely wade in there. Thursday Adventure has been having a really hard time in San Carlos—this week's event may signal a turnaround (just over 100 people, staff, vendors, and volunteers included), but it's still at the stage of $50+ worth of stuff (and beer) given to everyone for showing up and people don't seem to bother. I am pretty confident that if you flipped a fish in a close suburban park, never mind "true" off-trail wilderness, almost nobody would show up. Trees don't entertain well.

So, if you are an organizer trying to break into that market, the least you can do is to have memorable checkpoints; "which letters are up the power pole" will score you a scathing Yelp review. If you think you'd just put out some magic markers or have the GPS bleep every time you are near a CP, most of "this" crowd will be quite disappointed. That's not what they come for. A course that's mostly about navigation, and partly about route choice, may play well with families (discover treasures!), which is a quite different demographic from the fishes' core. Families aren't served well by the fishes or the mudders. The flip side is that families tend to be price-conscious down to where the level that most are comfortable with isn't going to pay for your permit, venue rental, and insurance. RealFun Adventures (Angelica's project) seems to be going the family-centered way, and I certainly wish Angelica the best of luck, but that's a much harder business model than selling to 25-year-olds looking for prepackaged "adventure".

So, is this what we (as organizers) really want? The more I think about it, the more it is obvious that the best and only way to successfully cater to flip-the-fish customers (their current demographic) is simply to become a flip-the-fish knockoff. With artificial challenges, a downplayed physical/competitive element, and entertainment above all. Some esteemed AR organizers made just this move. It is perhaps a great way to spend your life and quite possibly a decent way to make a part-time or full-time living, but it isn't a successful way to grow "our" sport; it is becoming another entertainer, not that different from a bar down the road. (Operating which is a perfecly honorable way to spend your life and make money.)

If we want to showcase what we have—the maps, the navigation, the route choice—fishes' isn't the right demographic to go after. Life's short, and it's not like the fishes' is the only demographic there is (besides the middle-aged, strangely dressed orienteering people and the freespending but flaky adventure racers). Urban rogaines/navigation races/orienteering events work well (to various degrees of success) in Europe and Australia, and people aren't that different, so the demographic is there, we just have to find out a way to it through creating an event that has appeal and is still about what we the "navigators" value.

An anectodal piece of evidence that reinforces my belief is that we get far better clickthroughs for ads targeted to trail runners compared to ads targeted to those who flip. We seem to get better crossover attendance, too. Trail runners aren't the ideal demographic, either, but they are a better fit. I am thinking currently that the ideal demographic is there and they arent't doing our events—nor are they doing much of any established format; they perhaps dabble in a triathlon here and a mudder there, but what would make them commit to regular attendance in event series is a format that really clicks.

My final demographics-related note is that the last thing flip-the-fish attendees care about is how easy it is to use GPS. Certainly many appreciate being given a crutch, but this crowd isn't geocachers. Few are in awe of the technology, and most couldn't care less about the distance travelled or pace, or looking at the route afterwards, and I don't think instant posting to Facebook would change that. I don't think the coolest GPS-based app would be nearly as much of a draw to them as a well-designed CP challenge. Now geocachers are a very different demographic, and they may well be drawn in by cool apps and the acrobatics of timely data exchange, but the problem is, that particular demographic is cheap and doesn't want to shell out for organized events. Without organized events, you may have a billion-click website, but you won't have a national team.

To summarize what I've learned: Customer demographics are quite important when you (re)engineer a product. The markets that have burgeoned may look attractive, but our current products wouldn't play well with their customers, and it seems to me that we can't modify these products enough to compete without sacrificing what's of central value to us. However, we can create a somewhat different market, but that's a lot of work and Mark Burnett isn't doing any of it.

That is a very informative posting Vlad. I'm curious what your thoughts are on the potential for 'non-event' based navigation participation. Is it about the sense of exploring or is it more about the social interaction.

I'm hoping to participate in your December 8th race. It takes place the day after a conference I'll be at in San Fran (along with 20,000'ish other geoscientists). Hmm, maybe you should choose some geo relevant CP's and contact some people to get on their events sked.

http://fallmeeting.agu.org/2012/

I don't think I've got rose colored glasses on. I'm pretty pragmatic and realistic about what I expect. I not expecting any magic bullets. But my thoughts come from a very diverse range of experiences.

One of my primary concerns: The activation barrier for modern orienteering course design is huge. It takes years of experience and special maps to pull off well. These barriers are real (I've seen plenty of scouters try to implement IOF style orienteering, and give up because it's too hard). I think it's imperative that the orienteering community define and promote an entry-level version of the sport that is fun an feasible for beginners to implement. I see technology as a potential aid (if it makes event design easier), and a potential barrier (if it makes event design even more complex).

Urban orienteering is one version that has lower barriers to entry. While I like that aspect, I just don't find urban races very fun. I'm a bigger fan of wilderness stuff.

Vlad. Might I ask a question about your Street Scrambles? Which target groups were you originally attempting to serve, and who are you trying to serve now? It sounds like you understand how 20-30 somethings are looking for a memorable experience and a social atmosphere, but you are currently frustrated because you haven't been able to deliver that.

Over the years, I've picked up a couple good tricks for creating unique social atmospheres in a short period of time. We can't use them at most O-events, because of the time trial format. They sound goofy, but can be amazingly effective at lubricating the social atmosphere (and you can even do it without beer). If you'd like to chat, give me a ring.

AGU always brings the best orienteers to SF :-)

Come to think - I don't know why we don't capitalize on that more! (Vlad, let me know if you want a list of interesting geological sites in SF, I've got contacts. Heck I wonder if you could get your event listed as sponsored event...)

It sounds like you understand how 20-30 somethings are looking for a memorable experience and a social atmosphere, but you are currently frustrated because you haven't been able to deliver that

Not exactly. I was trying to say that those 20–30-somethings who attend flip-the-fish clones (or mudders, for that matter) are looking for something very different from what any form of an event that you or I may find worth our while to put on can deliver. We can deliver social atmosphere alright, and we can even deliver beer (it's not too expensive to get the extra insurance and the permit), but the navigational and physical challenge that you and I find to be core to our efforts ranks very low on their list, and may well be a detriment to overall enjoyment. Therefore whatever we do, social atmosphere notwithstanding, isn't likely to be good for this particular crowd; we have to cultivate a different crowd (which may well largely consist of 20–30-somethings who also rank social atmosphere and beer high). The fact that there are large crowds at fishes and mudders doesn't mean we can magically steer these crowds our way (if only we had the beer part right), nor does it mean we should.

the potential for 'non-event' based navigation participation

All successful businesses I know in the outdoor recreation/adventure realm are event-based. If you aren't building a business, non-events can perhaps work; there certainly are demographics who prefer non-events, such as geocachers. I am convinced these demographics are in the overall minority of the consumers of outdoor experiences. Trail runs exploded in participation when they transitioned from the non-event realm to organized events. Same perhaps can't happen to geocaching because of the specifics of their demographics.

Non-event based outdoor rec? You mean like kayakers? Backpackers? Rock climbers? Skiers? Cyclists? Surfers? Skateboarders? Mountaineers? Yeah, there are events associated with these activities, but the vast majority of hours are logged by individuals or small groups, doing their thing.

Unlike the other sports listed, the "non-event" definition of orienteering is considered a skill, not an activity. People* just don't "go orienteering" on their own. They go hiking or running, and maybe use a few orienteering skills along the way. So I think orienteering stands out as depending more heavily on organized events than any of these other activities. Could the right tools shift this paradigm?

I think a new evolution of geocaching, where the goal is to find checkpoints using a map, and a the GPS is primarily used for scoring, might be an answer. Would it take off? I don't know.

*Normal people. I do this frequently.

Do (normal) people just "go flipping fish" or "go muddering" on their own? I don't think so, nor can I think of anyone "abnormal" who goes. So here's an opposite model where you don't have to have a spontaneous evolution of activity over many long years and many individuals and small groups—you just engineer the right product for the right masses.

Geocachers and maps... why would they need maps when they already have the GPS? You'd have to give them something they don't already have... like "an event", but my hunch is that most of them don't care.

My thought isn't to convert geocachers to orienteers. It's merely to steal some aspects of the distribution model, and retrofit for orienteering. I think retrofit is the perfect word.

I'm interested in building from the ground up. My thought: if you create an environment where enthusiastic college age folks could just go out and organize their own activities, you are setting the stage for growth.

Once in this country, orienteering was that sort of activity. Once in this country, orienteering was a growing sport.

Yes indeed distribution model retrofit... after geocaching, meaning after ~2000, has there been an example of a grassroots-centered model springing up? The obviously visible ones are all event-based, top-down.

Grassroots model springing up, or grassroots activity? Grassroot activities spring up all the time. Quidditch comes to mind. (Don't believe me? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AA2Oqg3YtsM )

I have to give Vladimir credit for the term "flip the fish" people. I had only mentioned to a group with Vladimir present that what we do is not juggling fish at a checkpoint and I had a photo I showed in the presentation to the adventure racers of a dude juggling fish. I believe this inspired Vladimir to coin the term.

The picture:

Please elaborate on "flip-the-fish", "fish-flipping", "fishes". Those terms do not seem to conjure up any images that might relate to AR, O-ing, mudders, Street Scrambles, etc.

Those terms do not seem to conjure up any images that might relate to AR, O-ing, mudders, Street Scrambles, etc.

Exactly, which is why "true" orienteers don't like them.

If you participate is any of those "Amazing Race" style games (Great Urban Race, Scavenger Dash, City Chase, etc, etc), you'll find that it's very similar to urban orienteering: you have to find a location and prove that you went there.

Except that they don't give you a map, and when you get there, you usually have to do something stupid, like juggling fish. Orienteers say "lame!", but those stupid things enhance the experience for those who participate.

There's also one good example of a "flip the fish" event that was born out of true navigation sport:
http://grurbanadventurerace.com/

It was started by some AR guys who were looking for a larger audience, since their AR attendance was declining.

Come to think of it, fish flipping isn't unique to professional events. I've helped organized some things pretty similar to "fish-flipping" style competitions for boy scouts. Except that they would probably have to flip a pancake, or cross a rope bridge at the checkpoints. It really can make things more fun. And I think there are variety of subcultures that do similar things for fun. I have met a couple scavenger hunt enthusiasts, and a friend of mine is a regular in the "puzzle hunt" scene. But most of these people treat still treat these activities like a fun diversion, not a sport you train for. I guess lots of people treat orienteering that way too.

People* just don't "go orienteering" on their own.

My girlfriend Ruth and I are hardly normal people either, but here's what we like to do with orienteering maps.

Ruth is not a runner and is highly non-competitive. She doesn't want her name to appear on any results list, even when it is clear that it's fine to take a casual stroll through an entire course.

But what we love to do is go out on a Street Scramble map or the SF Night and Day map, weeks or even months after the actual event, and have a pleasant stroll through the neighborhoods, finding the circled control points. Thanks to the interesting and unique control points chosen by the event organizers, this has allowed us to see things that you could never find out about in any mainstream travel guide.

So would there be any sort of market for such a thing, geared to tourists interested in exploring areas of a city off the beaten path? "For ten dollars, we will sell you an exquisitely detailed map of the city, showing you the precise location of many offbeat tourist attractions". Certainly I would be interested in purchasing such a product whenever I visit a new city, if it existed.

There's also one good example of a "flip the fish" event that was born out of true navigation sport:
http://grurbanadventurerace.com/

It was started by some AR guys who were looking for a larger audience, since their AR attendance was declining

... who are fortunate to be in Grand Rapids where nobody else flips! Here in SF, the eleventh fish had a great? idea of making the event different: bike-only. I hear from Rex the inaugural event attendance was about 6 people. Just another lesson about demographics.

Grassroots model springing up, or grassroots activity?

A model is more than just an activity. It's something with something on top of the activity, be it a central site for people to exchange info/schedules/results, a schedule of activities/training rides/meetups maintained by someone, some kind of governing/guiding organization, and/or some kind of organized events. Hashing, for example, is clearly a model; hashes are organized (despite whatever the propaganda would lead you to believe) well up to international level. Do quidditch people have rules?

I guess your idea of a working model is different than mine.

Anyway, not only does quidditch have rules, they even have a world cup.

But I don't think rules are what most young people are looking for. I think this video captures something essential about the psyche of young people today. And it may be something that fish flippers can tap into, that a strictly serious race does not.

When you google "flip the fish", you get a reference to a hand gesture that involves holding up all of the fingers except the middle one, which is supposed to convey a positive sentiment toward the person you're flipping it at.

(Bah, that's not Quidditch. It's Muggle-Q.)

Are hang gliders allowed to compete in real Quidditch?

Interesting thought, but I don't think many pilots would be interested in trying to dodge R/C bludgers.

Yes I get it about the spirit. My fundamental question is, how do we do what we do and become one with the spirit without flipping fish? Is that at all possible? Socks summarized it pretty well the other day; to many, what we do seems like work—you have to be somewhat rigorous as a participant and concentrate, and work isn't fun by definition contained within the spirit. My hunch is that the spirit, although pervasive, perhaps isn't the only spirit there is.

There are lots of ways to run... Just because something else is attractive to other people doesn't mean the same people will want to run the way we do.

I mean take track - running 400m loops over and over. It's completely "fair", but not something I'm very interested in. (ok, maybe the steeplechase, but that's only because of the obstructions and water pit;-)

But I'll still run something on occasion to get a more comparable evaluation.

One thing I have found is that if you move the core of a program outside the value system of those that hold it in order to attract others, you very often risk losing the core supporters and failing to attract the new target.

ROC has one "city adventure" event this year, and several "trail challenge" events. (http://roc.us.orienteering.org/trailchallenge.shtm...) The city adventure takes the place of a "large" event this year (long time format - across several city parks), and the trail challenge is a net addition (with a champion steering it). The rest of our season continues to be what the membership expects - and responds to.

Innovate and Support;-)

if you move the core of a program outside the value system of those that hold it in order to attract others, you very often risk losing the core supporters and failing to attract the new target

That's why Street Scramble is a venture of MerGeo (licensed by Get Lost!!), not of Cascade OC or BAOC. There's no risk to the core.

Here's an idea. Basically, running around a city looking for stuff is different. It's definitely not normal, anyway. So aim to create an atmosphere that says 'screw normal, we're having fun whether you like it or not.'

You can go a long way toward creating that atmosphere back at the event center.

First, you're gonna push people out of their comfort zone (they want this, deep down), but to make that happen, you've got to create a safe, non-judgmental atmosphere where stepping out of normal is encouraged, not inhibited. You've got to have people around being goofy, and other people around demonstrating the being goofy brings you acceptance into the gang. (Know any burners? What do they all say is the most exciting thing about black rock city? It ain't the fire)

Believe it or not, I think those mandatory neon bandanas that the Night-and-Day uses is a step toward doing this. Everyone is looking goofy, but doing it together.

But maybe it's time to go all in. So put on a goofy hat, and rock the vevuzela. Give away prizes for the best theme costume. (SF folks love theme costumes. Bay to Breakers anyone?). Encourage teams to have team chanties (chanties is pirate for chants). Make a ritual where everybody drinks from some ridiculous looking fountain before they start their course. You've got to go all in early on, cause that thrill will die off once they're alone in the city. But maybe you can keep it going for awhile longer. Create a 'secret code' for SF Street Scramblers to yell when they see another team on the streets.

Of course, an attitude like this suggests fun before other concerns. So most teams aren't likely to put serious competition first. They will probably be more happy to stop for icecream along their route than run till they puke. I don't know, maybe this isn't the right approach for you. Just an idea.

So the last ROC event was held at RIT (sprint, score-O) and happened to locate our base between buildings that were part of Tora Con - RIT's annual Anima convention (http://toracon.rit.edu/)

Their outfits made our orienteering garb merely unusual...-)

SF folks love theme costumes. Bay to Breakers anyone?

Nude orienteering, yes! But given the average age of orienteers in the US these days, maybe that isn't such a good idea after all.

put on a goofy hat

It may or may not work well. To go this way would be tripling "the risk of losing the core supporters and failing to attract the new target". Given that to me Burning Man seems like a refuge for infantiles uncapable of meaningful creativity at its best, a drug-fueled orgy otherwise, I'm certainly not intending to take, nor capable of leading, Street Scramble that way—it'd have to be someone else. As I said, people who require mandatory fountain drinking already have 11 fishes to choose from. I don't think many of them would come to our non-urban events, nor do I think there's more room in this particular market.

That said, costumes are encouraged at Street Scramble (and bandanas work magic if only to stir interest in the onlookers). There's a fine line between expression and manufactured/venue-induced goofiness. One requires someone with natural interest and creativity, the other squeezes out suppressed creative urges and sometimes, simple weirdness (and often scares away the first kind). There are plenty of the first type of person and that's who I would love to attract; I don't think they are doing any organized event en masse.

It's a weird thing, creating social atmospheres. Whenever you are creating a social group, you are creating a "special context" for behavior, existence, and normality.

Many many times, I've looked at some social group or activity from the outside, and thought how strange, even ridiculous it looks in a "regular context". It's easy to look down from above and judge. But one is allowed to break free of the old context, I am always amazed at how invigorating it can be to exist within a new context, even momentarily.

Getting people to break free of the old context, and enter a new context takes a special combination of rites of passages, symbology, and social reinforcement. That's what some of those "goofy" things I was talking about aim to do.

Maybe the tools I describe help create a new context that you aren't even comfortable with. In that case, they won't work for you.

Although you should think about how the context you want to establish differs from everyday context. It's useful then, to implement SOME set of symbology and ritual, and social structure to delineate this new context and help people enter it with you. If you fail to create a break in context, you might not scare people away, but you won't give people much reason to stay either.

Rituals and symbols that an event organizer uses to delineate a traditional athletic context: pre-race meetings. warmup zones. starting line procedures. starting horn/pistol. special clothes/uniforms. announcers. award ceremonies. medals. you get the idea.

To steal a few phrases from a neigbooring thread.

There are plenty of people out there who like being active but are not already hooked on a sport. That is our market.
Yes!

Maybe we need to have a few obstacles on the course for people to get around, like brick walls, mud pits and devices to inflict electric shocks. I hear that draws the crowds.

No! Gimmicks are not what you need. What you need is a comprehensive event design, that hits all the points. Fun, accessibility, motivation, social integration, long term payoff. That's hard. Gimmick sports fail all the time. When one succeeds, it's because they nailed the whole package. But people are always so distracted by the gimmick, they fail to see the hard work behind the curtain.

So, getting back to the smartphone app thing. Here's what I envision...

For users:
* See nearby "hunts" (or treks, courses, adventures, permanent orienteering courses, whatever)
* See a schedule of nearby "live events"
* See who has completed these "hunts" and their scores/rankings
* Share completed "hunts" and upcoming "live events" to other users using social media

For builders:
* Build a "hunt" wherever they want.
* Use either GPS-enabled proximity scoring, or challenge-based scoring (ie trivia question)
* Multiple map layers (Google Maps, satellite views, maps uploaded by the builders like orienteering maps, campus maps, etc). Builders and users can toggle between the map views during a "hunt"

I don't see how this is a bad thing. We'd just be augmenting what we currently have (orienteering events, urban events, permanent courses) with user-built courses and social media. There are apps out there that already allow users to build courses (SCVNGR, Lavahound, GeoRally), but it's not plugged into our orienteering community.

For example, I built a SCVNGR trek for the 'Hood Hunt I set in the Georgetown neighborhood of Seattle in June 2011. At the event, only one participant played via smartphone. But, the trek was viewable to the entire world on the SCVNGR app ever since, and with zero publicity from me, 67 additional unique individuals have found the trek and played along, as recently as two weeks ago. (And the SCVNGR scene here is pretty weak... there are only 8 treks, and 6 of them are incomplete/obsolete/test treks).

Location-based apps are big these days, and we have the original location-based game. It seems natural that we should try to push for something like this.

If you want to succeed at this, social integration is important. You have to like people, and not just people you like. That will get you up to 50-100 people, and you can know them all. Then you go past personal... and you either need a team of people-liking organisers and divvy them up, or split into multiple clubs, or create social sub-groups and hope they thrive on their own. Or you can turn it into leagues and training and get people signed up for seasons...

Have the Scramble-type organisers considered leagues? Best 5 of 6 races to count? Are there any orienteering leagues in the US? Washington schoolkids? Is that it?

[Edit: Pinksocks' post appeared while this was being written, so "this" doesn't refer to SCVNGR]

Fun, accessibility, motivation, social integration, long term payoff

kind of reminds me a bit what this new major at Carnegie Mellon University is teaching, integrating multi-disciplinary fields together for the purpose of creating an entertainment project in which people play and interact. Walt Disney Corp gave them a grant, and one of the projects was field-tested in a nearby city park, sort of a scavenger hunt looking for [mappable] features given a hint.

Orienteering On Demand looks interesting:

http://www.orienteeringondemand.com/

Have the Scramble-type organisers considered leagues? Best 5 of 6 races to count?

Street Scramble in Seattle has an annual "series" of events running March-August, with best 3-of-5 or 4-of-6 winning a prize. The special, annual events in September and December aren't part of the series.

At one of those events last year, I was surprised to find out that for one of the "regulars", it was the first one he'd done. I asked him why he'd never run that one before, and he said, "Well, it's not part of the series."

CascadeOC has two longstanding "leagues". We've got the Winter Series & Interscholastic League, which runs November-February is by far our biggest. And we've got the Ultimate Series, which runs March-June. We had a haphazard array of events in between, so we've started the Choose Your Adventure Series, which will be in its second season this year, running July-October.

All of these series, however, are only for individuals, with the except of the Interscholastic League, which is for individuals and teams.

I think that Texas has a pretty decent youth league, but mostly JROTC. A couple clubs in Calfornia are trying to adopt the Washington model, with moderate success. Our club is doing it on the back of one tireless volunteer. But with the league in place and active, that has allowed a couple of school teams to, where parents have taken the lead. I was amazed that our local California high school sent a team up to Washington for ISOC this year.

I took a stab at starting a UC Berkeley orienteering club, and we had a half dozen people ready to take it on. We were planning to invite the briefly existing UC Davis O-club and the now defunct Stanford O-club to some old-school intercollegiate events. But I got sick, people graduated, and that all kindof fell apart.

Vlad is attempting to have large series of street scrambles. I think he would describe the series format (something like a league) as critical to his business model. But most of the orienteers around here will do a couple urban events per year as a novelty thing and not much more. So I get the impression that he's saturating the orienteering community's interest faster than he's building an independent base.

I've found it tough to advocate for social integration in the local o-club. It's a very introverted community. I've even had trouble convincing our board that sending welcome messages to people that gave us their email and checked a box asking for more info should be a club priority. There is more fear of being perceived as spamming than there is interest in building community. So if you've got tips for building long term social integration, I'm all ears.

I guess nothing I just discussed had anything to do with cell phones.

Ever seen one of those movies, where the geeky girl with glasses and braces gets transformed into the prom queen?

Sending a personal welcome email is a start, until you get swamped with members anyway. Asking how they get on at their first event, if we could improve something. Looking forward to seeing them at the next one.
- Having a couple of people hanging out at the registration/start/finish whose sole role is to meet and greet, see how people get on, show them somebody cares, cheer them up if they got terribly lost.
- Going for pizza/beer/other afterwards, while the other poor volunteers pick up controls...

he's saturating the orienteering community's interest faster than he's building an independent base

Oh the orienteering community's interest was saturated after the first two events, and had been never counted on for growth. The largest two Bay Area Street Scramble events had 141 and 148 people, and hardly any of these people had been to a BAOC event before. These were first-time events at the respective venues. I call each one a success, although the first one lost money, the second one barely made any—there are large promotion-related costs. Google reviews hover around the 4.8 out of 5 mark, so not too many could have been unhappy, and there has been a lot of praise on blogs. These numbers are why I believe there is a market, and it isn't mostly the fishes' clients.

However, this success doesn't so far translate into success at other venues. What's critical—and where we don't seem to have an "in"—is the local community interest. Organizations such as family networks, Chambers of Commerce, and local sporting goods stores/running or cycling clubs/training groups. When approached, most of them have the "What the heck are YOU doing in OUR backyard??" attitude. That'd be all nice and dandy if they'd organize a Street Scramble themselves—we'd just stand back, cheer, and help if asked, but they obviously aren't doing anything similar.

It took Thursday Adventure the most part of a year to get over a similar attitude in San Carlos (five events until all checkpoints were sponsored), so perhaps the attitude just requires a long enough wait.

Anyone willing to be involved in this?

White House Convenes Group on Games to Boost Outdoor Activities

On the afternoon of May 17, the White House Office of Science and Technology Policy and the Department of the Interior will host a meeting to discuss how partnerships among Federal, state and local land management agencies, mobile gaming companies and others might become the basis for innovations in outdoor recreation games that promote active lifestyles and tourism. Triggered by discussions under the America’s Great Outdoors Initiative, the meeting seeks to energize efforts to inspire young people to get moving outside by creating new technologies that leverage existing resources and available data. Federal agency leaders, mobile gaming experts from industry and academia, innovators in the recreation sector, and potential philanthropic and corporate partners will be participating.

ARC will participate in the meeting and has recommended several other participants. News from the session will be shared. Anyone interested in this effort should contact ARC President Derrick Crandall at dcrandall@funoutdoors.com.

Oh my god yes.

O-USA had better jump all over this.

Ok, here's the list of who's involved:

* Federal, state and local land management agencies.
* Mobile gaming companies and experts from industry and academia
* Federal agency leaders
* Innovators in the recreation sector
* Philanthropic partners
* Corporate partners
* Young people

This is basically a "who's who" list of everyone we need to be aligned with moving forward. All involved in one initiative. Land managers, corporate sponsors, youth, the recreation sector. This is so perfect for us, I feel like eddie during a Yukuppi Race!

I nominate Pink_Socks to represent OUSA!

As the most recent director of the OUSA Interscholastic Orienteering Championships, he's got the resume to sit in that room. And more importantly, he's got the creativity and enthusiasm to make connections, follow through, and get stuff done! And team him up with Glen, and somebody in the BOD, to help pull the OUSA political strings so meaningful decisions can be made in an efficient way.

Call up the DCrandall guy, stat!

+1 to what blegg suggested!

Seriously, I can't think of another person more qualified than Pink to be there representing OUSA -- along with Glen.

+1 from me too!

Glen and I have both attended some ARC events in the past, representing OUSA. If you'd like background on the organization and/or other intel support of some type, let us know.