Discussion: Cross Country - Classic versus Skate? (first time buyer)

Hey all,

Know there is a fair amount of cross country skiiers on here. I'm getting my first pair of cross country skis; primarly for winter exercise/training. Any suggestions about going with classic versus skate skis? From what I've heard, it seems like they're both set-up for a specific type of skiing. I don't really see myself doing something exclusively. Sometimes at recrecational facilities (i.e. groomed trails), but also sometimes just in the backcountry with no set bath (i.e. breaking trail).

Any suggestions are welcome!

I'm sure you'll get many opinions...here's a couple of mine. Which technique do your friends use? That might be the most important deciding factor. Most of us first learned classical technique. To do it most efficiently takes a fair amount of skill and lessons. And you have to learn waxing techniques at the same time. When the weather warms up, you get less grip, which can be frustrating. However Classical is a "balanced" stride: you develop both sides of your body equally. Skating favors a "strong" side which can result in off-balance development, and perhaps back and knee problems, if you're not careful.

Basic skating is quickly learned. It is faster than classical, more aerobic, and therefore better training. And you don't need to know about grip waxes; all you're looking for is maximum glide. But to skate well takes practice, training and strength to fully utilize each skating stroke.

Living in Toronto as you do, I'd guess there are plenty of groomed trails for both techniques. But doesn't it warm up frequently during the winter? In thawing conditions, skating is the only way to go...and it requires less snow, since setting classical tracks takes snow depths of 4" or more. And during the spring, you can skate through the woods or across golf courses on old snow "crust," going just about anywhere. It's a blast!

Whatever you do, buy the lightest, best racing equipment you can afford specific to the technique. Try to stay away from "combi" equipment, which will handicap you no matter which technique you use. Once you have the equipment, cross country skiing is basically free. So you can afford to splurge. Good luck

If you are looking for something that you can use both at groomed facilities and to break trail you are pretty much looking at classic skis. Skating through powder is not really feasible (although in spring freeze-thaw conditions you can skate just about anywhere). The problem with wanting a general purpose classic ski is that is won't be great at anything. The ski I'd want to use for classic skiing in tracks is different than the ski I would use to explore in the woods (as is the boot I would want to use). If you are willing to accept some compromise you can get a classic ski that will fit in tracks but still offer some stability in powder - any decent shop should be able to set you up with such a ski if you describe what you want to do. As with any sport once you get into it you will realize that you actually need a quiver of skis:)

Next question would be waxable or waxless but that depends on your interest in waxing and the local snow conditions. When I lived in Alberta I always waxed while here I have not taken my waxable skis out in two years. If you go waxless spending more is worthwhile - anyone who tells you a waxless ski sucks has never skied a good waxless ski.

Skate and classic are both good workouts. Skating seems physically harder initially but that is because most people take longer to figure out proper classic techinique. Once your classic techinique is dialed classic is just as good of a workout. They certainly work slightly different muscle groups though.

As with any sport once you get into it you will realize that you actually need a quiver of skis:)

Alas, very true! There is no single answer to this question but you can't go wrong. XC skiing is loads of fun and great training. Just be sure to start budgeting for your next pair of skis right away. :)

If you truly want to break trail through a forest, skate skiing won't do the trick. Living in Toronto, you will find high quality waxless classic skis more useful than they would be out west. We have a lot of days where the temperature hovers around 0C or the snow is old and hard-packed, both of which can make waxing frustrating, especially if you're new to the sport. Although I use my waxless classics less than my other pairs of skis, I guess if I were limited to owning only one kind of ski for all conditions, that's what I would keep as a compromise. As Revy says, the newer, high quality waxless technology is much better than what existed in the past. I've even worn them in races when conditions suited them.

I'd consider buying in the following order ...
1. Classic skis - waxless
2. Skate skis
3. Classic skis - waxable

The first priority is to get a good Combi boot that will do classic, skate and offer enough ankle support to deal with ungroomed descents. Don't skimp on boots - make sure they are comfortable and fit well. As a first pair of skis, a good classic waxless ski (e.g., Fischer RCR or Rossignol Xium) will do everything you are likely to want in an acceptable fashion. It won't frustrate you in temperatures around zero C, it will get you out the door if the trails are ungroomed. It will be Ok on groomed trails. You will soon realize that there are better options for groomed trails, whether skating or classic (waxable skis can't be beat in cold conditions). If you have access to second hand options, keep your eyes open for things that will work for you.

For skiing around Toronto (for fitness), I would pretty much stick with racing-type skis. You're not likely to be doing any sort of backcountry trips of the sort that revy is into. I regularly do all sorts of non-alpine backcountry skiing on racing skis.

Alas, don't despair because a reasonable quiver includes:
1. Classic skis - for hardwax
2. Classic skis - for klister
3. Classic skis - waxless
4. Classic skis - Zero/Hairy base
5. Skate skis - hard track
6. Skate skis - soft track
7. Backcountry touring skis
8. Backcountry tele skis
9. Alpine touring skis
10. Classic rock skis
11. Skate rock skis
And the list goes on ... !

As far as the "work-out" is concerned, both skating and classic are great. They are both "full-body" activities that work a wide variety of muscles and will tax your aerobic system as much as you would like.

Most beginners find they get a better work-out skating than classic. That is becuase they don't have the technique to "gear down" when skating - it's often all or nothing. Whereas, in classic, they "gear down" by simply walking on their skis ... but, of course, that isn't skiing! Once you are proficient, both are equally good work-outs and you should be able to do either technique at a wide variety of intensities (from very easy to full out).

I don't buy the "strong side" arguement about skating. I coach my kids to do all asymmetric techniques (i.e., offset and two skate) on both left and right. Anyone with a little discipline (i.e., more than my 7 year old son) can work both sides equally.

Start with bmay's #10 ski: classic rock skis (waxless). Find somebody who will give them to you for free (e.g. yard sale, at the dump, or from a friend who has them gathering dust in his attic because they are beneath him now that he has superior equipment). Get boots and poles to match by the same method. Get out there and ski, and you will soon know the answers to the rest of the questions yourself. (This might take two days, or it might take five years.) Ignore anyone who tells you that it's some kind of crime against the universe to use anything but the absolute newest best stuff -- the truth is that the stuff that was the newest best stuff a few years ago works as well now as it did then, and if you're using equipment that was free, you've still got your money and can upgrade at any time. (In my experience, Nordic ski snobs are the absolute worst gear snobs there are.)

Start with a cheap pair of classical skis and take a lesson or two to learn otherwise you will establish bad habits early. Also call ahead to some local ski areas on weekends a lot of places have free ski day. A local ski rep will have both classical and skates for you to try plus if you are not happy just bring them back to try varying lengths plus they will be waxed properly for you. I recently got to try Fischer this way in which the ski, poles and boots were all provided for free plus he waxed it for that day's snow.

Or try snowshoeing. No speed there but a whole lot more fun on the ascents and off groomed trails. You'll still want some selection, based on snow conditions.

Try renting a variety over the season. I started last year to see if I enjoyed it. Then I was given a pair of beater skis which work for now. Next season I may buy a new pair as I learn more from others. I ski in the cuyahoga valley national park and other local NE Ohio areas. We get plenty of lake effect snow.

We are not the worst gear snobs out there, bike snobs are worse. I think Alex has about 12 pairs in her current quiver, I'm down to 9. We have a number of alpine and tele pairs, and several hundred pairs of rollerskis. Yet its easy to always come up with another pair that you absolutely need to have.

What skis you want is very dependent on the conditions you will ski in. A pair that will make backcountry fun will not be all that great on groomed trails, and a pair for groomed trails takes a lot of work to push through the backcountry. If you want to stay on groomed trails, I would recommend learning how to skate, but for backcountry a pair of waxless classic skis will be great.

The good thing is that you can share the same binding system across all the skis. Thick about how much time you are going to spend in the boots, and then make sure you get a pair that is really comfortable. Try a couple of different brands as they all fit differently. There are a lot of really decent combi boots available.

There are two incompatible binding systems, SNS and NNN, so figure out what boot fits you the best, and then stay within that system for all your skis.

We are not the worst gear snobs out there, bike snobs are worse.

Nah. Bike snobs are proud of their gram-saving excesses, but they don't take it as an affront if somebody else is having a good time on a retro bike.

There are two incompatible binding systems, SNS and NNN

Well, that's the current tip of the iceberg. I probably have a couple of additional incompatible binding systems among my stuff, and I think my skate skis might be neither of those two options (I'd have to take a look). But yeah, if you're talking about non-obsolete equipment, that's true.

I don't think we're all gear snobs. Despite having a boat-load of skis to choose from, on Saturday I was out on a mis-matched pair of skate skis - one from 1989 and the other from about 2000. I had a fine time.

No, no, not all Nordic skiers are gear snobs, any more than all cyclists are gear snobs. But the Nordic skiers who are gear snobs are the worst gear snobs around.

...Saturday I was out on a mis-matched pair of skate skis - one from 1989 and the other from about 2000...

Glad I'm not the only one who does this. But at the same time, it is really only XC gear snobs who have the confidence and resources to do it. It means that this guy has broken at least two sets of skis, over a long time span, and knows enough about the flex and structure of both skis to skate on them together...Max points for ski knowledge, sense of humor, and frugality.

Try skate :)

Ok I have a waxing room..but there are other sports that.......ok lets wax and have a good time.

And so begins my quest of a new sport. The over/under on the number of pairs I'll have is set at 3 pairs in 4 years... place your bets.

Thanks for all the tips and recommendations all!

I'd agree, mostly, with JJ and Zerfas. You can get waxless skis used really cheap. I have gotten them free from the dump and on trash day. You have to figure your length, and it's nice if they have bindings, but bindings are easy to change.
I'd go for some good skate skis once you want to spend real money.
You can use the waxless in the woods and in tracks, especially as Bash says around freezing.
Skating at that temperature can be tough if the snow gets soft.
As Brian points out, you can gear down on skate skis, and basicically resort to walking. That's tough on classic skis as they have no grip if walking uphill (you have to herringbone).
I mount my own bindings so I'm always willling to pick up an old ski even ir it doesn't have the bindings I use.

hello
I use only prepared (machine-made) skiing tracks.
I do 1000 km - 2000 km skiing during Dec-Mar each year and use the Classic style for base training (hr average below 125). For me Skating style is mainly for "speed skiing" with hr average well above my aerobic step 125. Regarding skating there is difference between Soft track skies and Hard track skies. Moreover, If the skiing conditions are such that there is wet snow often, a different pattern for the bottom of the ski is recommended. One factor to consider how much to focus on the waxing. For me, getting the ski ready in that respect is much harder in skating. In classic, once the base waxing is done, you just add the "grip" and go. I recommend to have two pair of skies, one for classic (with cold temp) and one for skating (with wet warm conditions).

ps
I have 6 pairs of skies and I'm only amateur.. OK plus a waxing room plus..

Just curious Ryan - how close are you to groomed tracks?

I just went through the same as you (well, starting about 10 years ago). My "development" as a nordic skier...

1. bought skate skis. Year 1 - everything was a workout. Fantastic fun. Learned basic glide waxing. Skating is good for beginner since a) you get great workout, b) the feedback cycle is excellent for learning - you can tell what makes you glide better.
2. Year 2 - 3. Took a few lessons, got lots of tips from friends. Began to climb hills reasonably efficiently.
3. Year 4-5. Became quite efficient at skating. Leanred more about waxing for glide.
4. Year 6-7. Discovered double poling
5. Year 8-9. Finally get interested in classic skiing. Learning about waxes and technique begins all over again.
6. Year 10 - went to the Olympics. You might have seen me? (I was in one of those blue jackets ;-)

This history of course is very approximate. And importantly I have the blessing of living at most 5 minutes from superb tracks - which allows me to ski pretty much whenever I feel like it