Discussion: 2010 Billygoat

The 2010 Billygoat will be at Mt Tom on May 23. I'm directing the meet and setting the course. PG suggested trying a different format this year. I'm inclined to do it, but I thought I'd ask for feedback before deciding.

Background: the winning time needs to be around 90--95 minutes in order to ensure that the slow and the old can get around the course in under three and a half hours and get their shirt. That's not much longer than a classic blue course. Then the early finishers have to stand around for nearly two hours before the shirts are awarded. Peter's idea is to have the top finishers go for another short loop, with a chase start, to determine the final standings.

This is how I'm tentatively thinking of doing it. After doing the Billygoat proper, the top 15 males and top 5 females will do a fast, open woods "sprint" course of about 2k. The chase start will begin 2 hours 45 minutes after the start of the Billygoat proper. The chase will be modified so that the interval between the starts of two runners in the chase will be one-fourth the intervals in their finishing times in the Billygoat proper. For example, if the first runner finishes four minutes ahead of the second runner, he will start one minute before the second runner. The official standings of the Billygoat for the top 15 males and top 5 females will then be determined by the order of their finish in the sprint. (If any of these runners opt not to do the sprint, they still count as official Billygoat finishers, but they will drop in the standings below those runners that do the sprint.) The sprint course, like the Billygoat proper, will have a skip and a forked control; that should help keep packs from forming. (Note that, because of the modified chase start, the winner may not have the least total time for the two courses; the sprint is weighted more per k.) The sprint will be open to all competitors after the awards ceremony.

I think this would be a lot of fun for the spectators (and fun for me, the coursesetter). What do others think? I'd especially like feedback from those most likely to be running the extra loop.

My immediate reaction is a slightly negative one. I love the Billygoat and similar long-distance mass start races for the strategy and the head-to-head battles you get, especially towards the end of the course. This format renders them meaningless, since finishing 30 seconds ahead or behind someone in the "Billygoat proper" will now mean chasing someone from 7.5 seconds back in the sprint or being chased from the same margin behind. For me, that takes away the thrill that always comes with the last few controls of the Billygoat.
Of course, I am just one person, and I'll do the sprint anyway, but would probably enjoy it more as a separate event.

What Boris says is true, I have actually used the strategy of finishing just behind the leader in the "prologue" so as to start close to them in the final. Those were the days when i could actually run fast.
I don't really see the point from the top competitors view.....

After running hard Billygoat proper and then doing a sprint? It's just insane.

Doing two loops, like it's done at Golden Goat in Bay Area, would preferable.

PG's suggestion has to be good. After all he invented the Billygoat.
How about this slight variation? The standard Billygoat is x km and if you do that within the time limit you qualify for the shirt. However to be in the top prizes when finishing the standard distance you go immediately in to the bonus loop of an extra 2-3 km.
Once the first person finishes the bonus loop that would be the cut-off for anyone else starting that loop.
I have done two 6 hour adventure races where this was the format. It worked well and got people back in a relatively compressed time period.

I agree with Boris; the sprint significantly alters the dynamic of the Billygoat. I have never been among the leaders at a Billygoat, but if the finishing delta of the start is so marginal compared with the sprint, I would be tempted to run a bit more conservatively on the long course to then push hard on the sprint and chase down competitors.

As much fun as sprint orienteering is, it's a very different beast from the kind of race of the Billygoat.

Also consider that the other runners will be chasing the leader during the sprint, as opposed to the more favorable "leader starts last."

I would really enjoy running a separate sprint or course after the Billygoat, but I would prefer to keep it separate from the Billygoat race proper with its tradition.

Chimera.

Depending on how you define things, it was Fred, rather than Peter, who invented the Billygoat.

Depending on how you define things, it was Fred, rather than Peter, who invented the Billygoat.

Exactly. Fred dreamed up the event and organized the first one. I only contributed the name. Though I did keep it going thereafter for a while.

Though I did keep it going thereafter for a while.

And introduced most of what are now considered the essential elements (which is what I meant by "how you define things").

I'm with Boris and others than you've got to retain 'first across the line' is the winner. If you want who's ever gotten a shirt to still have a chance of a 3.5 hour shirt, you'll have to shorten it a lot. One size fits all is nice, and yes it does make things harder for people who've slowed down due to injury, lack of training, or mother Time...\

I kind of like the idea of the format as suggested. Can we do both and then give a separate prize? The doorstop goes to the billygoat winners proper, the top 15 & 5 get to fight for a "big check" or a box of wine or something equally enticing :)

I either hate it or love it, whatever psychology is required to make PG and Phil think that they will make me either happy or unhappy by including it. (Or not.)

If the object is to give the fast guys and gals something to do while they wait for the awards/t-shirts, then why not hold the event basically as described here but keep the results separate? You could call it the Gruff.

@BorisGr Of course, I am just one person

But I agree with every word you write, so now we're two. Even though I didn't enjoy the sprint finish last time I ran quite as much as you did! ;-)

What to do while waiting around? Eat, drink cheer finishers, lie on the ground knackered. See if they give you two shirts for going round twice. Go find the control you skipped.

One perspective not yet raised is the ability to do historical comparisons. What happens when someone suggests that JimBob, winner of the 2011 event, is the "best billygoat competitor ever"?

There might be this asterix in the charts that denotes the pre and post "sprint loop feature addition"-)

A sprint doesn't sound like a very goatly thing to me - it sounds more like "extra fun", and I'd suggest trying something "off the books" for a year to see if people really have an interest and enthusiasm for such a thing before making it an official change.

That could be a "demonstration" event;-)

As another suggestion, competitors may rather sit to play Skitgubbe - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skitgubbe - a card game I became familiar with nearly 20 years ago. (I believe I read the original post referenced in rec.games.board)

The point being that the loser of a hand of Skitgubbe must make a goat noise, and the other players may often say something like "I smell a goat" at that point.

Perhaps not as exciting as a sprint after a lengthy hilly run, but that may hold an attraction to some of the competitors...

A preferable handicapping system IMHO would be a longer course with more skips allowed by age class.

Thanks for the helpful feedback (Feet excepted :)). Of course, I was aware of Boris's point that, by shifting much of the competitive juice to the final loop, it would inevitably take it away from the Billygoat proper. And I have to agree with Jim's terse comment: a "chimera" is indeed what results from this goat/sprint hybrid (though not all monsters are bad). Gord's suggestion of just having the top runners continue on for an extra loop was considered, but without the "fun" of the chase, and with nothing for the spectators, there doesn't seem to be enough left to justify making the top runners go longer.

Maybe PG could have done a better job selling this, but I think it's clear that sentiment among those who would be doing this is strongly against; so no sprint as part of the Billygoat. Final Answer.

I think I may still do a Billygoat sprint as a separate race and team fundraiser. (It will have one skip and a fork, of course!) I'm curious to see who will run it, and run it well, after doing the hilliest Billygoat ever!

Hillier than the first one in 1979? (Yikes!)

and it will be called the Gruff?

How hilly was the 1979 one?

Has anyone pointed out that the DABSC ( Divinely Appointed Billygoat Steering Committee ) should be consulted on this?

Course Data. The '79 BG at Mt Tom is listed at 620 meters. Jeff already surpassed that at Norwottuck with 640. This one will be over 650 of climb (and over 750 meters of descent). Hey, it's the Billygoat. But it will be shorter than '79 or '05.

Billy Goat Gruff; I like it. And the course crosses a bridge, beneath which will be hiding our very own troll. (But he would need to grow back the beard.)

If memory serves, for several years at least there was also The Kid, run the day before the Billygoat. An idea ahead of its time?

The DABSC has been consulted, before this was posted.

1979 had no skip option. And note that emulating 2005 is not a good idea.

there is no finish line, Just do it!

J-J>>What was wrong with ´05?
As for the DABSC, does Jon Nash even orienteer anymore? I don't think I've seen him in a decade or so.

I believe that once you are on the DABSC, only a defrocking or possibly an excommunication can get you out.

@ccsteve: best billygoat competitor ever?

Easy.

Eric Weyman

note all 5 years in a row billygoat winners now have bad knees

What was wrong with ´05?

48% finishing rate. Too long, too steep, kinda thick in places, and the unseasonably warm day didn't help.

No, Jon does not orienteer any more. Hasn't been spotted near a control flag since the Relay Champs in Maine, whenever that was, though I think he's still in charge of the committee that deals with the Silva Service Award. Last time I talked to him, he said he had no remaining interest in orienteering, though people sometimes change their minds. I'll bet you that six months from now, he will no longer be a member of the DABSC.

Wait, but how can the DABSC change??

Too bad Jon's not around orienteering anymore. He was always a familiar friendly face and a great organizer when I first started out the US part of my orienteering life.

Nothing remains the same forever.

I even heard a rumor that the DABSC itself might in fact be mortal, with a rapidly shrinking life expectancy.

You guys are sounding morbid.

I am with Boris comments.. I won one billygoat, and come 2nd - 3 times but "the winner take it all"..... a fun sprint run could be there " the sprint after the billygoat "..

The US Relay -- and Night-O -- Champs were held in Maine in September 2004.

2nd - 3 times Nick? :-)

See 2000 here: http://www.billygoat.org/statistics/jockstuffer.ht...

And note that emulating 2005 is not a good idea.

FYI: the 2010 course will be significantly faster than 2005, even though it may have a bit more climb.

"and it will be called the Gruff?"

or how about "The Goat's Beard" or just "The Beard"

The Possum Trot had a nice design this year. Winning time was 1:50 (Mark Everett); most runners were in by 3:30; with a 5-hour limit. (No t-shirt incentive though.)

#1. Long point-to-point: 40% of Trot (rough estimates)
#2. Long 'loop': 40% of Trot
(return to refreshment stop at end of part #1)
#3 Short run-in legs: 20% of Trot

You could opt for classic Possum Trot (parts 1,2,3 with 2 skips) (about 16K, 30 controls, with 5% climb) or the inaugural Short Possum (parts 1, 3 with one skip).

There was a 2-hour time limit for completing Part 1. Anyone out over 2 hours on Part 1 had to switch to Short Possum and thus earn a place in that race. Anyone else who picked up the long course map but ran out of energy, could also switch to Short Possum at end of Part 1.

Whatever happens with the Billygoat, I vote for this goat as the mascot.

Cristina, I admit having a a bit of a bias here, but that goat's not nearly as handsome as Owen - shown here in Colorado in 1995 - 6 years before he appeared on the 2001 Billygoat T-Shirt.

Owen - 1994-2009

J-J - Aside from Owen in 2001, have any other Billygoat T-Shirts depicted a real goat?

Phil - I vote for leaving the goat in its classic format - you know I love sprints, but not as part of the goat.