Discussion: Local Club Ratings, input?

It is almost a year now since I started the project of rethinking the O-ratings. I was leaving traces there and here...

The main benefit of the project as I formulated it for myself would be possibility to create local ratings for the clubs which are too small to keep their own statistics.

Similar project is done by DVOA

I'm ready to open the local ratings to all the clubs and their satellites.

F.E. Here is NEOC,CSU,UNO men rating
and here is COC,SAMM men rating
play around to get your club data using Runner club drop-down.

There are also regional ratings, f.e MidWest or Pacific. Regions are defined as here
----------------------------------
Data availability issue.
=======================
The only open convenient source of O-data I found is WinSplits. So if your local events are not on winsplits - they are not in the database.
This doesn't has to be like that. Even though I created database around SportIdent format, simpler formats can be digested.
If you like the idea/results - move your event organizers to send me the data. (format is to be discussed separately)
Every small club holding events can have the rating and runners can know their place on the O-scale.

Have fun and do not be afraid to tell me if it s..ks for some reason

Shura

P.S Help is outdated and I will be updating it as/if the questions are coming accordingly.

I am used to use some races as training and save strenght for coming more important race. Also during pollen season I run races just for training because I can't fully compete. To get a good rating I should stay home and run training on my own, not in races. Not fun. And if I train in competions or race during pollen season my rating wouldn't tell much about what my power is when it counts.

This is pretty typical behaviour here, lots of races nearby all the time, but maybe not in US?

I think this is fairly typical. I certainly don't treat local C meets like races the way I treat A meets. That said, we have a lot of people in TSN who rarely (if ever) run anything except local meets, so for them that is racing. Wouldn't hurt to include those races for their Sake, but I wonder how many of them would care?

@Jagge:
> To get a good rating I should stay home and run training on my own, not in races. Not fun.

This statement is not correct and I will explain why.
The ranking score is calculated using standard "4 best plus half of the rest" algorithm

And power is just plain average of all. You could easily disregard it and just go with ranking score. When you running slow your power slightly drops, correct.

When you running A meets - your A -meet ranking score is unaffected

There is a drop down "Meet Class" with options - All events/ A meets. It was designed exactly to resolve the concern.

Follow our top runner Tapio's rating with A meets only (5 of them) or All meets (24 of them)

I'm not trying to point out here that his ranking is unchanged significantly - he is very stable runner.

The point is that in A-meet rating only 5 top A meets count for the rating calculation.
And if you like you can disregard the other one with all events- always have a choice.

=============
Along the same lines
----------
you can do the similar things with "Race type" drop-down including and excluding sprints

==================
Algorithm note for those who like "subtle" details:
---
Running weak races aside from A-meets actually benefits top runners slightly in a following way:
- your power drops
- total GV of the A meet event is lower as it is driven by sum of everybody's powers and top runners contribute most.
- all other runners get lower score
- you got better relative score! Voila.
== above described effect is as important and significant as other bla-blas about A winning over B when A lost to B in all races where they run together etc.

Enjoy

@ Cristina
Wouldn't hurt to include those races for their Sake, but I wonder how many of them would care?

I think this is quite critical. If we want the sport to get younger and wider.

Beginner has no benchmark or any other drive to keep Orienteering being a race. While racing aspect is very big drive, right?

I was in "floating" situation for several years, where I would run Orange/Brown and have a group of unidentified people competing with me, so how fast I am?
I go to the next race and the group of unidentified people changes, so how I perform now? better/ worse or what?

Until I got everybody's names and feeling of their speeds there was no real competition (it took long three years)

Of course those who winning the course are getting the drive of being THE WINNER, but what about 20-30 % of the rest who would be on the competition hook if there were one?


While sitting on the finishes I often see groups of youngsters splitting in pairs and frantically competing with each others on Yellow.

But the same people will not come at all or walk leisurely if there is nobody to compete with....

I think we would get much more recruitment between first comers if competition/racing aspect be more emphasized.
And top runners should stop "nickel-and-diming" their local races and show the benchmark :)

Enjoy.

I like this in theory very much, but I am concerned about some implementational issues.

DVOA's own rankings work very well and I find them quite motivating. I approach a DVOA local race the same way as an A event, because many times the competition is as good and the quality is sometimes better. The DVOA ranking system is robust because a lot of scrubbing the data takes place and problems are ironed out. Also, there is no doubt about what is ranked and what isn't.

That said, DVOA doesn't put many races on Winsplits. Certainly a fraction of the overall number. And, obviously, you only have Winplits if you have epunching. Even in the NE (UNO/CSU/NEOC/WCOC) not that many meets have epunching. Many of those are very legitimate events.

That is by biggest concern--a sort of omitted variable problem.

And then you may have events where something strange happens that isn't reflected in the results. A lost control, or something to that effect. Many times you can't derive what happened just from looking at the results. If that were to happen in DVOA it would be reported to the appropriate authority and it would excluded if necessary. But, with a decentralized, sort of inferential system, you take what you can get.

Sure, a lot of these things will wash out, and it would likely be good enough. But not if you are missing the majority of races because they aren't on Winsplits.

@j-man
As I said before, WinSplits is not the must, any reasonable format can be accepted.
No e-punch is required for the database as name and time are the only essential items.

It is rather where is the horse and where is the carriage question.

- I can moderate results and accept outside moderation if needed
- People can send me the data and the missing events will be there
- all mentioned missing control issues can be reported and excluded... We can work out the common rules for handling such events.

Well, I think it is pretty interesting. There may be some interest in the NE to get things included.

I find the concept interesting -- but a whole lot of work, it sounds like, but if krechet is doing the work, I can't complain about that part.

krechet, if I were to send you results from ROC, what format would you like them in?

Same question for CSU/WCOC/UNO/NEOC. Would text files be acceptable?

Good.
Let's start from the MAXIMUM requirement. Most convenient for me.
We can downgrade it later, so do not be afraid, OK?

Here I published the format which I use to upload to the database. I convert all data to this format, there is no other way as all highlighted fields are needed to index database properly.

If you stick with the format, all rows in the file will be unique and you can have all your archive in one file. Also I can just append all files together and upload as one batch.

TEXT file created using any delimited export of the formatted file from EXCEL-like program will be OK.

----
now about text files, let me guess...

Most probably you have text files in form ( Event name, Club name, Date - in the name of the file)

Yellow (1.3 km, 100m, 10 crls)
1 Person Name time
2 Person name time

Blue

1 Person Name time
2 Person name time

This file is easily convertible into my format by putting data into excel or similar program and copying date, course name, event name etc many times. If you do not do it, I have to do it.

Bigger problem is Names, where it is not always clear what is first name and what is last (or Surname as I was taught :)
This part is much easier for you than for me..

Second big problem is time if it is not in real format - excel cleverly identifies it as time/date, and it becomes 12am, or sometimes 12 am next day or whatever: inpredictable...
I know how to deal with it but will try to explain personally if needed. It is specific in each case.

HVO, USMAOC, EMPO, CNYO, ROC and BFLO are also in the NE (northeast) -- but not in NE (New England).

and?