Discussion: isn't north always at the top?

i took part in a ski-o event a few weeks ago, & ran into something i have never seen in my history of 180 foot-o meets.
all the text of the map went left to right, as the map was held in hand, but the north arrow pointed left, instead of up!

i adjusted after a while, but was very confused for the 1st few controls. has anybody ever seen such a thing before?

haha now that's pretty funny. There was a guy in Quebec years ago that believed all the rivers and creeks ran north-south. Maybe it was him that made that map!

well, I once had a map were north was in the upper left corner of the map and south in the lower right, in order to fit the map on an A4-sheet. And at least in the german rules it is not written (at least to my knowledge) that north has to be at the top. You have to use the northlines for orientation and not the dimensions of the paper, on which the map is printed. But you are right, it can be a little confusing.

I also made a 90° mistake once, because I expected the map to be in "portrait" format but it was actually printet in "landscape" format, so I ran in the wrong direction at the start ;-)

"I once had a map were north was in the upper left corner of the map and south in the lower right,"

better than south being in the lower left, that might be a little weird

North doesn't have to be at the top of the page, but according to IOF rules, text on the page should be aligned to the north arrows to avoid just the confusion that you had. In the USOF rules, control numbers should have their tops pointed north as well (B.25.3).

http://tinyurl.com/2zx43g (IOF standards -- this is a pdf; page 2, section 2.2)

Were they using a non-orienteering map?

I have on occasion seen maps printed at an angle across the page, but in all those unusual cases text aligned with the north arrows, not the edge of the paper.

It confused me at a night event at Tankersley when the North was in the top left hand corner...

'...so I ran in the wrong direction at the start ;-)' < yeah, I did that at my first YHOA training session - ach!

Well, in Swedish rules it is written north should not be at top. In Swedish maps north lines should be about 5-15 degrees from top to east or west. Example from SOFT KartBanken:
http://www.obasen.nu/kartbanken/mapImages/2675-516...

North lines are not like that to make it fit to A4. And texts should be from left to right, not west east. Strange rule, IMHO.

this was indeeed an orienteering map, & ALL text including control #s & legends had their tops pointed EAST.

>JanetT
ISOM2000: "The sides of the map should be parallel to the magnetic north lines."

I was at an event last year where: i) north was at the top of the map, ii) magnetic north lines were parallel to the edge of the map, iii) map text was oriented with top to the north
.... except the event title was written sideways along one edge of the map. That in itself was enough to lead to a number of 90 degree errors.

I've been to an event where the north lines are pointing north-west.

ISOM2000: "The map must contain magnetic north lines and may additionally contain some place names and peripheral text to help the competitor to orientate the map to north. This text should be written from west to east." I read that to mean text is written left to right when North is "up."

In mosquito's case, the text read N-S or top-bottom in reference to North, not west-east (or left-right). Perhaps that's why the ISOM2000 specified "west to east" and not "left to right" (which allows you to print South at the top if you want).

>Jagge
I've seen several with North not parallel to sides of page. I would think that's permissible as long as the situation is well advertised ahead of the event. And in those cases it was to reduce the size of the paper required, because the mapped area wasn't a rectangle N-S or E-W.

However, in those cases, text was always aligned with the North arrows, and I think that makes the map much easier to use.

Your map examples aren't nearly as far off North as mosquito's map was (90 degrees). I wonder if yours are that way because Sweden's much farther north of the equator?

Here in the midwest, where declination is within a few degrees of 0, the only time you see the lines rotated is to get a map to fit on the page. I have done many Rogaines and adventure races on non-orienteering maps where the lines on the map point true north and the declination is significant. Also, the text is often printed in several different directions on such maps. Fortunately, in those types of events one usually has some time to work with the map before going out and you can draw in your own north lines (with lots of arrows along the line, so you can tell which way is north even when the map is folded).

The 2005 Possum Trot map was rotated to fit on the available paper - 45 degrees in that case.

but even so, the text & control #s on the possum trot map agree w/magnetic north (well, except for the clue sheet).

At one event in Perth many years ago the setter orienteed the control numbers in line with the direction of each leg, very confusing and fortunately the idea did not take off!

Of course North is the other way around down here in the Southern Hemisphere, how many Northern Hemisphere Orienteers have been caught out with a Northern compass or visa versa?

Sure, I definitely wasn't complaining :) It didn't cause any problems with map folding, and the clue sheet wasn't visible most of the time anyway. It's an example of what should be done if the map and the paper have an odd fit.

Hungarian maps always have E at the top.

Well, in Swedish rules it is written north should not be at top. In Swedish maps north lines should be about 5-15 degrees from top to east or west.

That is so wrong!

I've grown up with north at the top. I think its one of those conventions that make it a little easier to know where north is.

The downside is that beginner mapreaders often find it hard to turn the map "upside down" to orientate it, but that would be the case whether we have N, S, E or W at the "top".

Unlike Richard I can see the teaching value in having control numbers oriented to the direction of the leg. I remember a recommendation that beginner courses are better if the first leg goes north - but on the second leg there's no-one around to reinforce the "turn the map" mantra. Maybe its better if the first leg is NOT north, there may be people around who are keeping an eye on things.

legs, schmegs. they don't matter. no matter what the size or shape of the paper, the text should read left-right, west-east, contrary to the top of the map, which we have all agreed, should have north at the top (i don't see myself going to hungary any time soon).

In my 20 years of orienteering in Sweden (hundreds and hundreds of races and map), I can only remember once that the north lines were NOT parallel to the paper. Maybe there were a few more that I have now forgotten, but if there is a rule somewhere that north lines should be at 5 to 15 degrees angle, certainly that rule is totally ignored and forgotten...

This is relatively new rule. In 90's north lines used to be parallel to the paper.

pi, just take a look at O-ringen maps 2004, 2006, 2007, 2008, latest Tiomila maps or almost any map produced in Sweden during last 5 years.

I must say I was surprised with the O-Ringen maps. What led to Sweden's decision to go against the IOF specis, and what's the basis for the number of degrees chosen?

Anyone have more specifics on this rule? it seems odd, we must be missing something here. I checked Jagge's example, it makes the top closer to true north but not exactly. Maybe it aligns with some local swedish grid? A required condition for government funding? Tiomila 2008 maps do not appear to be rotated.

Tiomila 2008 map is rotated too, but not much. Angle seems to be bigger in most eastern and western parts of Sweden and almot parallel to paper edges in central Sweden. I have been told it is a local grid thing, but I do not know the reason. Goverment funding may not be bad guess at all. Money is the only reason I can imagine.

Specs may be in SOFT www pages, in Swedish.

What a surprise. Spent 5 days on those O-Ringen 2008 maps and didn't notice that 5 degree slant. (Can this be another excuse for my errors?) Doesn't seem to involve printing the map on the available sheet. As Jagge pointed out my 1990's Swedish maps are all parallel.

Looks like I left the country just at the right time, in the fall of 2002! :)

yeah and in Canada, we align north with the edge of the map, so I think you should stay here ;-)

I was in O-ringen 2008 and like maps. They made true decision to print maps orientated to true north. True north is always constant, but magnetic north is drifting sometimes 1 degree per year .
You can check this:http://www.ngdc.noaa.gov/geomag/magfield.shtml
For example in Lithuania : in 1930 magnetic declination in Lithuania was about 0 degree, now it is about 6 degrees.
Now I made a new map oriented to the true north for local competition (Spring cuo in Lithuania). It is interesting what appreciations will be?

North lines should be drawn as IOF specs say.

Rimas, edges of those O-ringen maps are not pointig to true north. You can try the declination counter you postet, I am sure it will give different angle than to the angle use in those maps. They are using some national grid.

Orienteering maps are made to be used with a compass. True north may be constant, but it's also irrelevant, because there's no way for an orienteer to know where it is. Same for any sort of grid. If declination changes, reprint the map with magnetic north corrected (this would have been difficult in the days of pen and ink drafting, but it's comparatively easy with a computer).

Yes in Sweden they use national grid, but it is very close to the real north. This north is valid in Sweden. The same situation is in the other countries.
Why I think that it is better to draw maps oriented to real North( national grid):
1.Map can be multipurpose , not only for orienteering events.
2.Map always fits to format you did it first time. For example five years ago you draw a map in exactly A4..Now magnetic declination changed for 2 degrees. Now you wanted to release an updated map. Everything turns to the right or left and in some place some of the terrain will not fit to the A4, on the opposite side will be blank space.
3.Using GPS during competition. Usually your GPS is using national grid and it is more simple to use it.
4.Look into the future: map must be printed according national grid without north lines. For competition it is possible to print course and magnetic north lines together.

There's no problem with setting a map up in the CAD program to be aligned to the national grid. But for a compass-based orienteering race, it should be printed so that magnetic north is parallel to the edge of the paper, with north at the "top", unless the map will not fit on the available paper otherwise. All text should be aligned with magnetic north.

But that's just my opinion. Do whatever you want.

Well, the difference between true north and the national grid used in the first example map (kartbanken map) is about 4 degrees. I would't call that "very close".

I think I understand what you are trying to say, but it is difficult to agree with you. Standard IOF map is equally multi purpose. If you like to see real world coordinates, you can print some coordinate lines or crosses with WGS84 coordinate values if you like, just
outside the mapped area. They used to do that a lot in Norway and they may still do. Aligning paper edges to true north or a grid does not make the map any bettter or more multi purpose.

The map layout is quite bad if we use and necessarily need a spot so close to paper corner it may drop off when map is rotated one angle or two. With decent design/layout a small rotation will do no harm. I have no idea what you are trying to say in your fourth argument, but no need to wait for the future - we already often print north lines (and the whole map) together with courses, don't we?

I guess the the Swedish reason to have maps directed towards "true" instead of "magnetic" north is that it's supposedly easier to combine maps, if they are all in the same grid.

All text should be aligned with magnetic north.

Not only that, but all the symbols that are required to be aligned to MN---depressions, pits, out-of-bounds vertical stripes, control numbers (1, 2, 3, etc)---as well as decorative map borders---should be aligned with magnetic north.

J-J's got me fully indoctrinated, apparently.

To me, this issue seems uncontroversial.

Orienteering is a map and compass sport. Ensuring that the competitors' 2 tools are consistent with one another and congruent with the overriding purpose would seem to be the guiding principle.

But as Rimas wrote, maps could be made more gps friendly. But just some real world coordinates printed somewhere would do, no need for rotating.

Somehow I find it hard to believe there is no more than the combining issue and it has nothing to do with funding. Maybe they get permission to use govement topo maps or other data in map making process for free if they use the national grid in their maps?

but j-man,
if you were a chess master & suddenly, after you've played 180 games, the rooks & bishops exchanged their moves, wouldn't you ask that the previous rules (i'm talking IOF here) be observed?

i mean, the pieces & the board are still the same, right.....?