Discussion: water stop behavior

While "policing" the area of vandalized controls at the DVOA's Memorial Day A event, out of the corner of my eye, I thought I saw someone drinking directly from a gallon water bottle at a nearby water control. At that moment I was not sure what I saw, because I was barely paying attention, in fact periodically dozing off. But that sure woke me up, because in my 30+ years of orienteering, I had never observed this behavior, although I heard mention of it.

I then positioned myself where I could see two water stops at the same time, and focussed completely on this subject. All of the advanced courses came through this pair of controls. Out of the next 10 -12(?) orienteers I observed two more people drinking directly from the jug.

Of course this sample was highly unscientific, but later confirmed in general terms (10-20+%?) by one of the other "policemen" who had earlier covered these controls, and had observed the same behavior at other events.

The question:
Is drinking directly from a common jug acceptable behavior?

If not, what action(s) is warranted?

1. tar and feathering?
2. DQ?
3. monitoring by people or cameras?
4. public posting of names?
5. Nothing, we should not be judgemental.
6. Nothing, this is reasonable behavior.

Yuck. Another great argument for carrying your own water.

It's NOT acceptable, and in fact is mentioned in the USOF rules -- "37.8 Competitors shall not drink from water jugs in such a way that they contaminate the water others must use, and they shall not waste the water. Each competitor shall avoid using more than 8oz of water at any one refreshment control unless they need additional water to drink." -- Some clubs do this by looping a string through all handles, loose enough so they can be lifted/poured, but not lifted far enough to drink directly from).

I've seen it at least 1/2 dozen times myself at A-meets. The culprits tend to be of the male persuasion. I've never reported them (though I've been tempted to) at the finish.

I think monitoring the water stops by cameras/people might give us more information about the likely culprits, who could then be tarred and feathered. :-) Would publicizing the rule better lead to fewer violations?

I carry my own water, but sometimes have to refill... I do not appreciate those who disregard sanitary guidelines and potential spoil (if they are knowingly or unknowingly ill) the valuable resource for others.

Funny you should mention this, as it came up at dinner on our way home yesterday (one of our party witnessed someone drinking from jugs on the course yesterday). Its disgusting, won't save you much time, and as Janet mentioned, its against the rules. I mean, you may as well just lean over and kiss some sweaty dude on the lips.

I'm all in favor of Eric's #2 above. More advertising would certainly lead to fewer incidents. Perhaps in the meet notes, just as enforcement of the ISSOM sprint rules was emphasized in the notes this weekend. I was running scared of olive green.

I myself have performed poorly at a team trials due to illness. In that case it wasn't from drinking tainted water at a stop, but it could just as well have been. It would be a shame to lose a season of hard work simply by drinking after some inconsiderate person who may not even know they are carrying a virus.

I'll readily admit that I often (not always) drink without using a cup, and I did so this weekend. But I don't violate rule 37.8, because the jug never touches my lips. I pick up the jug and pour water into my mouth from at least a couple of inches away. The effect is basically the same as drinking from a water fountain. I have no idea whether others also do this, or if they suck on the jug.

I have at times done the same as JJ. You have to be careful, of course, but it is relatively easy to pour in such a way as to not contact the spout and not waste any water. And then I don't waste a cup, either. All it takes is practice. And it does not violate your USOF rule (unaware of any COF or, for that matter, any IOF rule on this by the way).

Although I rarely drink on the course, but when I do, I drink the same way as JJ. I am not a germaphobe, but DQ sounds like an extreme measure to me.

I do it......like Will said.....a direct pour in to the mouth shouldn't resulted in a tar and feathering!! With some of the big, heavy jugs out there I find it hard to balance the cup and jug with 2 hands, and on the uneven ground pouring without spilling it can be tough.....so I suck it down.

Kinda funny how people can get so grossed out by that......just think about all the germs you come in contact with going about our daily lives! A little backwash from an orienteer couldn't hurt....could it?

Most of the people I've seen doing this suck on the jug. The people I've seen trying the "pour" technique almost always spill as much on their shirt as they get in their mouth. The more full the jug or the closer the race, the more that gets spilled. If you're being careful enough not to spill - trying to do this in a racing situation - you're probably wasting more time than you are saving. Just pick up a cup and pour some water in it. The water took much more effort to get to that stop than the paper or plastic cups, and is far more valueable at that point in a race.

There is always water at the start and finish, yet I've never seen anyone pick up a jug and pour or suck from one there - people always use cups. If saving cups and time is a priority, why not just pour from the jug at the start/finish too?

Thoroughly nasty, and I have seen it happen already several times this spring (though not this weekend specifically). Who wants to drink the germy spit of others? Blech. Take 5 seconds and use the dang cup.

One course setter I know ties the handles of the 1 gal jugs together with a small rope or cord, so that it is very difficult to lift all of the attached jugs high enough to drink directly from the jug, and the person is forced to pour some into a cup. I personally have never bothered to do this, as it is just one more task for the course setter, but it is an option.

I forgot to mention, though, that one of my pet peeves is course setters who put out those mini 3 oz dental cups, so it takes a lot of time to get enough water. I always use as a minimum a 7 to 8 oz cup.

I'm a big ditto with JJ, Wil, and Z-dude on drinking technique. I drink this way a) to save time, b) to reduce litter. Like Wil said it can be done in a way with limited spillage (which also occurs when pouring into a cup). Having been to water stops that had run out of water it would be great to police the 'suckers and spillers' sort of thing but perhaps more importantly it would be wonderful for championship events to have volunteers on the course pre-pouring water (and sports drink) into cups at water stops. A small sacrifice in the course by funelling courses to a common trail crossing or field checkpoint near road access would make this easier.

On a related note when I was picking up the water stops on the 2006 NAOC course it was disturbing to see cups scattered up to 50m away from the checkpoint. A supervised water stop would be able to keep litter to a minimum. And finally, a message to organizers don't forget to pick up that litter. A few years ago I went for a training run with friends 2 weeks after a major event in Ontario only to find the cups, gel wrappers and empty recycleable water jugs still in the woods. My friends and I cleaned up the mess and hopefully others from the public didn't notice this mess before we did.

I do sometimes spill a modest amount on my shirt (far less than goes in my mouth), but this isn't wasted. As Hammer notes, spillage can happen when pouring into a cup (in which case it is wasted), and I also saw somebody on Monday pour water into a cupand then dump it on his head, which, while I don't object to it, seemed puzzling.

Another possible negative result from the pour-from-jug-into-mouth method is that another person who sees you doing it may figure that makes it ok for them to do it, too. And they may not be as careful. I'd vote for setting a good example and always pouring the water into a cup first.

Regarding the question of what actions are warranted, more publicity of the existing rule is a good start. Does the existing rule already proscribe DQ for violations? If so then making an example of a few folks would put out a strong message that this is not going to be considered acceptable practice.

The thing is most host clubs aren't likely to have sufficient manpower to assign water stop monitors. (And if they did, why not just set up a table and have them pour water into cups as runners arrive?) So we need to be able to trust each other to self-police. Reporting witnessed violations can also be problematic as I wrote up last month here.

At a recent meet, I had to go through an astounding number of cups to find one that wasn't full of dirt (yes, even the ones that were still in a stack).

I'll also admit membership of the pouring class (GOUGER appears to be a different species, though). Perfectly acceptable, and likely more sanitary than dealing with the cups that might be clean or dirty or sweated-on by the previous visitor or shat in by an animal.

It's difficult to enforce rules that a substantial fraction of the relevant population believes are misguided. Witness adherence to the speed limit on most US roads, and the great success of the war on drugs...

I have occasionally used the "pour from a few inches" method to save time (my fingers never seem to work well at a water control), but last weekend a runner in front of me appeared to drink from the jug (although he may have used the pour method, so I didn't say anything), and that was enough to convince me, since perception is reality and someone else might see me from a distance and misinterpret, to use a cup.

answer is simple... don't provide water at events, have a note on website / final details saying 'if you want water, bring your own'

I am also guilty of sin as described by JJ. But I also use cups--on the same course. I don't know what pushes me towards one technique rather than another at a given instant.

I am quite confident I have never brought the jub into contact with my lips whenever I have done this. However, I am not as confident that I have not reused a previously used cup at a water stop. After a number of competitors have come through it is often hard to tell which cups are new and which are used. So, I don't think the hygiene issue is clear cut. But, if it is a violation of USOF rule 37.8, then it is wrong de jure and should not be done, rationalization notwithstanding. As an aside, I expect many people are not familiar with the complete corpus of USOF rules (the implications of that are for another discussion) so if people feel strongly about this--which I can understand based on sentiments expressed here--maybe some sort of campaign should be undertaken to educate and sanction as necessary.

I don't get to run long events very often because most of the W21L courses in England take about 60-70 minutes, so it is rare that I find myself needing water on a course. The few times I have done proper long courses have usually been at big events in various countries around Europe. In these situations, there were always several water stations throughout the course, where water was available in cups that volunteers filled up and then put out on a table. It was easy to grab a cup of water, down it, and then throw it in the vicinity of the table. This seemed to work very well. Of course, this type of situation is only possible if there are volunteers willing to set out the water like this...For smaller events, if any water is set out for the competitors and they have to pour it themselves, I think it is pretty clear what the "etiquette" should be. Use what you need and leave the rest in the same state that you found it in. Don't waste the water and don't make the cups or jugs dirty.

that's an interesting thread. such problems never occured to me here in Germany, because here it is common, that at the water controls there is at least one person who is pouring the water into the cups in advance, so there are always enough filled cups available for the runners. you drink and put your cup into a washing bowl, where they get cleaned and therefore recycled. and the person at the water control has an eye on the runners that they don't litter the environment. we also don't use jugs but bigger tanks or barrels with a tap from which the cups are filled but it is not possible to drink from.
for me personally the pour-into-mouth technique of JJ would be ok. Otherwise I have the same oppinion as fossil, point out the fact to the runner and if they don't respect the rule then disqualify them to "state an example". Not to provide water as andrew suggestet is a bad idea, because especially at long races there has to be water because of health reasons, especially for the beginners, who are often much longer on the race then the good orienteers. I think in Germany this is even regulatet when there has to be a water control. If you place them carefully it is normally enough to have just one or two of them, so you need just one or two persons as "manpower", which should be easy enough to realise. I also once saw that only one person was commuting between two water controls and refilled the cups.

Brave reply JJ! I too take the JJ approach, taking a cupless gulp without any lip-touch.

I always use an already-opened bottle, and perhaps this is the common choice of we non-cup-users (for time reasons?). If so, my advice to the cup users would be to use one of the bottles with a lid & replace the lid as a sign that no-lips-have-touched-this-jug.

Another solution, assuming that the "problem" is always Males & probably those in the M20-M50 age groups, would be to carefully choose water control locations so that M20-50 water controls aren't used by any other categories. As if course planners don't already have enough to worry about ;-)

So I stand there - empty cup in hand - waiting while you hold the one remaining jug of water over your head and gulp while pouring and trying to aim well enough to hit your open mouth. You've definitely saved yourself some time...at my expense. If there's more than one jug I'm ok, but as you suggest, its up to *me* to open the lidded and possibly sealed jug while you gulp away from the already open one.

Why not pour yourself a cup, then drink it while I'm pouring mine, and if you want some more you can then re-fill your cup? I don't see whats so time consuming about pouring water into a cup. I've been practicing that since I was in kindergarten.

If you really want to save some time on the course, study your map while you're drinking. For most of us, 5 seconds of reading while drinking is more valuable than the 3 seconds saved by drinking from the jug (at most two or three times on a course).

I've never had someone else wait for me to drink - ever. And I can tell you that I pour much faster into my mouth than into a cup, for sure (one obvious reason is that using a cup takes two hands which is awkward because I've only got one free one). I think you are stretching a point by by suggesting that I would delay you.

Your suggestion about stopping and reading the map for 5 seconds (way longer than I take to drink, btw) is interesting. At the 2006 World Champs I watched with great surprise as Marc Lauenstein came to a complete stop to drink at the spectator control, unlike most other runners who ran while they were drinking (and tossed their bottles away further down the leg). It didn't seem to hurt Marc as he finished comfortably in second place (with no chance that drinking faster would have won him the gold ;-). But I think that is a personal choice - some people will react well to taking a "break" to drink water while others will become unsettled.

I hope we can all at least agree that if USOF rule 37.8 is intended to prohibit drinking directly (with or without touching the container with one's lips) from containers which will be used by other competitors at water stops , it would be better for it to say so explicitly rather than pussyfoot about with language about not contaminating or wasting the water that is subject to interpretation.

Although, having said that, I suppose it would also be necessary to prohibit drinking directly from a container even if you were going to drink all its remaining contents in order to preclude someone in that situation from gaining a speed advantage over another competitor who faced only containers still holding more water than they wished to drink.

I don't think 5 seconds is a bad estimate of the time it takes to drink at a water stop - either from cups or directly from a jug - unless you can take water without swallowing or only drink one mouthful.

If 5 seconds (or 3 seconds) is exaggerating, then why are you so concerned about saving less than this by drinking from the jug the 0-3 times that you might do so in a race? Why is a <5 second savings for you worth the risk to dozens of other people's health? Most people can make up 5 seconds in the chute if they try. And why does anyone bother with cups at the start and finish if pouring directly from jugs or kneeling and drinking directly from coolers like a gerbil is a perfectly valid and environmentally sound thing to do?

Silly question, but why is everyone so against carrying their own water? I always carry my own water, because I like to drink when I'm thirsty and can pick times that are convenient to run and drink. Can 12 ounces of water add more time than stopping to drink at a water stop?
BTW, those of you who only take 5 seconds to drink are way fast. It takes 3 seconds to pick up bag of cups, 15 seconds to rip cup bag that wasn't opened beforehand, 3 seconds self-hating when I realize that the bag was open, but I couldn't see the opening through the sweat in my eyes, 10 seconds to drop cup with sweaty hands and retrieve it, 5 seconds to pour and accidentally spill most of it...repeat

While it would be nice to station Mike Minium at all water stops, supplied with a table, cups, water, gatorade, cookies, and a nice view, that's just not going to happen. Volunteers are simply in too short a supply. We will continue to depend upon each other to be hygienic and to pick up after ourselves. The simplest solution is for us all to follow the same easy un-misinterpretable "rule." While 29.9 and 37.8 allow for some wiggle room, I doubt that was their intent. Jug chuggers (and pourers and splashers), suck it up and use a cup. It just isn't that difficult or time consuming.

A couple of points.

First of all, I don't think we're all necessarily talking about risks to someone else's health. At least, those of us here who have been pouring without touching the container to our lips have certainly not been contaminating the water supply. And I have yet to read a whole lot of scientific literature to prove that even if you did touch the bottle fleetingly to your lips (not that I ever do this or would suggest that anyone do this) that any significant elevated risk of morbidity to subsequent users would be incurred.

Second, I am not sure that a 5 second estimate to:

1. locate a clean cup,
2. work the mechanism on an unopened or tapped jug,
3. pour into cup, taking care not to spill while holding a compass and map in one hand and an SI stick in the other,
4. close the mechanism,
5. drink,
and then
6. find an appropriate place to dispose of the loose (now dirty) cup,

is necessarily accurate. As others have alluded to, it often takes much more than 5 seconds to even locate a clean cup, let alone perform the other tasks in that sequence. Unless I happen to be among the first runners at a water stop, the cup situation is usually one of total disarray - often with some people even having stacked dirty cups into one another, and me only realizing that the cup I have chosen from the stack is already used, dirty, and contaminated just as I am getting ready to pour. Rather than use a cup whose cleanliness is unsure, it is very clear to me that free-pouring and NOT touching any of the containers (or cups!) to my lips is less likely to be contaminated.

Clearly everyone has their own preferences, but I think we can all agree on the basic idea that spitting into the water container or drinking (and making oral contact with) directly from the water container is undesirable. However, nobody has convinced me that pouring from the container without making oral contact poses an additional health risk to anyone else, and I am convinced that it is less likely to pose a problem to me than drinking from a suspect cup, and less likely to result in someone else accidentally drinking from a dirty cup that I have created. Add to that the idea of slightly less garbage in the woods, plus what I perceive to be a significant time savings (and certainly a much smaller disruption in my race-rhythm, which to me personally is the most significant of them all), and then pouring without contact has a number of advantages.

I am not out there trying to convince cup-drinkers to switch over, and in fact I probably do use a cup more than 50% of the time anyway. I am just saying that suggestions of tar-and-feathering people who pick up the jug and make a clean pour seems well out of line, as would even DSQ in my mind.

If there was a volunteer out there pouring water and sports drink into cups, then we would all likely choose to drink from cups. Such is the case in the vast majority of international races I participate in. But until that situation exists around here, I would suggest that a little leeway and some common sense should prevail.

Enough commenting from me for today.

One big gulp (one mouthful) is all I drink at a water stop, just a quick glug and on to the next leg. At the start and finish, I prefer to walk around and sip the water.

Kneeling and drinking directly from coolers? Where did that come from? When they have those gatorade jugs, I never drink directly form the spout. I unscrew the lid and plunge my whole head in.

I've timed it, and it can take over 30 seconds to open a jug, and pour and drink 2-3 cupfulls (depending on the size of the cups). As a result, if I'm not too thirsty, I don't drink. I rarely see elites stop to drink at water controls either - so I figure they also don't want to lose the valuable seconds ...or perhaps it is as discussed here, they would have poured directly from the jug except that I was with them so they declined so as to avoid being tarnished as a jug sucker ;-)

Anyway, put yourself in the shoes of the serious competitors ...if they think that their competition is shaving seconds by drinking directly from the jug, then almost certainly they are going to do the same.

>15 seconds to rip cup bag that wasn't opened beforehand,

unopened cup bags -- so true.

Same for unopened jugs. Especially ones with a seal on them.

I see no problem with pouring directly into your mouth from a jug without touching it, as long as you can do it without excessive spillage or inconveniencing fellow competitors. It does however seem easier and fairer to all to just say "do not drink from the jugs"

The times I've seen people doing it, it has been full-on mouth to spout, and that simply should NOT happen. Ever.

saw that happen monday at lehigh u.

eeeewwww! another good reason i carry my own water.

I routinely take time splits on the way into and out of water controls. I've found that a fast water control is 25-40 seconds, including 3-5 seconds of normal punch routine. I have neither a speedy punch routine nor do I worry about 25-40 seconds to get two cups of water (my normal intake), as in a long 75+ minute race, I've found that not drinking slows my mental abilities (read: I make more navigation mistakes) or my running speed. Preventative drinking pays off.

I admit that in my early days, I drank from the jug. I've done the JJ water-to-mouth jug-dump, and I've drunk directly from the jug. For the recent past though (7 years?), I've used the cups. Why? Because, though it doesn't bother me one bit, it is against the rules and clearly bothers others. Therefore, it's unsportsmanlike...no different than shoving a little kid out-of-the-way or knocking over an older competitor on a tight section of trail or bumping over a control stand without putting it back upright...all may be slightly faster for you but are unacceptable and unsportsmanlike.

What do I normally do now? I grab the first cup lying on the ground (usually a used cup, because as already noted: I don't care and often the cups in the bag already have plenty of dirt knocked onto them), fill it, drink it, (often) refill it and drink, and move on. I'll often pour for someone else who arrives at the same time. It's a sport, not a cut-throat competition.

Maybe we should adopt an old USMAOC practice: using military-issue 5-gallon water cans (filled, they weight 40lbs or 18kg) at the controls. They hold lots of water & no scrawny orienteer can comfortably lift them to suck from the nozzle. All previously mentioned problems solved, with the minor addition of the problem that no one can get a legitimate drink from them either...

In an ideal world we would have refreshment tables set up with water pre-poured in cups and no jugs for people to drink out of. As a practical matter, that is not practical.

The water stops this past weekend were very much in the standard DVOA mold, which I do know something about. I would say they are a good compromise between organizer convenience and competitor convenience/fairness.

Imagine schlepping water in anything bigger than a gallon jug to some of those waterstops--it is simply not possible with reasonable manpower. Gallon jugs are cheap and relatively transportable.

When I put in a waterstop I always open all the jugs--removing the seals/plastic bands.

Cups are a perpetual problem. I typically buy cups in 50-packs and open the convex end of the bag which enables people to pull cups off the non-drinking end, reducing the likelihood of crap getting in.

I also typically install a trash bag, attached to a tree, such that people can dispose of their used cups.

All these allowances are imprefect, however, and after a while my water stop organization falls apart. Unmanned water stops are susceptible to increasing disorganization and to getting "trashed." They also allow for various ways of interacting with the water and accoutrements.

Until I see the Kenyan marathoners wear little fanny packs with water containers strapped on, I will not run with water on my person (well, Rogaines are different - relatively speaking there is not much running going on). Of course, I'm a wimp, so 12 oz is an annoyance (and doesn't dent the water loss during a 2-hour race) - I even refuse to wear this little ankle thingy they use as a poor form of chip timing at some road races around here (intended to be triathlon timing gear, where a shoe is not available for attaching the chip during the swim).

I will say that i have also done the same as JJ, "pour water in moth from jug". I actually did that at almost every single water stop on the team trials long course on monday. Never once did i let the jug touch my lips and hardly spilled anything, and what did get spilled was on me and cooled me down so was not "wasted". I really hate water stops and normally try not to use them, as that is when i have to switch my brain over to dealing with water and not on the map and navigating. Because of water stops I have almost skipped over controls, not punched or done 180's out of them. Now i know the only way to practice not doing that is to use water stops. Because of that i have figured out that if i do use a water stop if i only use one hand to drink water than i can keep my other hand on where i am on the map. If i don't do this it takes me awhile to get back into the map (especially if it is a long leg and the water stop is just on a trial). So as of right now i have found a way to use water stops and not lose my place on the map, as well as i think not contaminate the water for anyone else.

I would like to also mention i have never heard that rule about the water before. I think if people are really annoyed by this they need to post the rule somewhere first and see if things improve before going as far as DQing people. i know that if i didn't know about the rule (which i didn't until this morning) and i got DQed for this i would be really upset!!! If i knew about the rule i would deff think twice before 'contaminating' water by drinking from the jug (poured or sucked)

I did one time (1996, I think) at a West Point meet, when they had 5-gallon jugs that were also chained down, drag one up onto a log or something, lay down in front of it, and opened the spout (or tilted it or whatever) so that it poured into my mouth. Just to be weird. Because it was a hot summer day and I was just kind of in a cranky mood. And I didn't contaminate the water.

Many of those Kenyan marathoners have support crews traveling throughout the course to hand them drinks at predetermined locations. Not sure what the USOF rules would say about that on the course :)

Not to muddy the waters :-), but the marathons I've seen have special Elites-only aid stations where their own personalized blend is in their own container, marked with their number, and made available to them only. They are under more of a burden than we normal marathoners are, because they might be drug-tested. They have to use care with whatever goes into their bodies. I don't think the elites reach for the orange slices proffered up by the tykes along the Newton Hills in Boston, however tempting an orange might be at that point in the race.

Another idea to resolve this problem is by providing a huge amount of water at water stops (USMA Meet this month is brought to mind). Then everyone that chooses to drink can have their choice of a gallon jug.

I know we had an extreme amount of water out on the course and it was barely used. (45 gallons at a few points)

I personally believe that water on the courses is a great need. There was a discussion previously posted on this website that argued the importance of water points. I personally have used both the pour method and the cup method. It all comes to personal use. I do understand the contamination problem but we are orienteerers who sign a waiver risking injury/death just to have a little fun.

For those who are concerned about contamination the solution is easy, provide your own water, or use an unopened jug. I have personally never ran into a water point that did not have at least one unopened jug of water.

This was enough of a rant for me....

For those who are concerned about contamination the solution is easy, provide your own water, or use an unopened jug. I have personally never ran into a water point that did not have at least one unopened jug of water.

If everyone followed this solution, you of course would.

At the recent DVOA meet, I was last starter on M21, and there was less than a half of the final jug left at the last two water stops. It was also difficult to find a clean cup (presumed as such by having another stacked in it).

I rarely take water on the course, but when I do, I always open a new jug if one is available. I've seen people, even in goat races with me following and right there, mouth the jug, and while the risk of illness seems low, I am naturally disgusted enough by it to opt for a clean jug and cup. Blame evolution for my aversion to the body fluids of sweaty strangers, I guess.

It seems striking that a good part of this conversation seemed couched in a discussion of rules rather than etiquette or hygiene. Perhaps there is no health risk, and we need to overcome our hardwired aversions. But show me the science first. Would people feel comfortable about others (or themselves) mouthing the jug if the USOF rule in question were eliminated to conform with other jursidictions? I guess it is fine to mouth the jug outside of USOF sanctioned A meets.

I'm sure there's more risk of increased morbidity from driving to the meet rather than drinking the water, almost no matter what. And yeah, evolution didn't help much with an aversion to that.

(breaking my own rule of not commenting further today...)

If what you're referring to by "mouthing the jug" means what it seems to imply, I have to submit that I don't think anyone here is really supporting putting one's mouth directly ON the jug. That statement is definitely clouding the issue....

Making the water easily available for all is important. The fact is, it takes a significant amount of time to drink the water from a cup the way most water stops are set up in "real-life" USA (and Canada). Some people like to drink from a cup, fine. I'm not against that. In fact, I think organizers should attempt to do more to support drinking from a cup - including having water stops along trails and probably manned, with cups out. That would sure save a lot of water and potential litter being lugged out into otherwise relatively-pristine forests, at any rate. And put your water-stop monitor/guard to use pouring ups and picking up litter. Everyone is happy!

Otherwise, if people are able to drink in such a way as to not contaminate the water and not use more than their "rule-allocated" 8 oz of water, then please just let them be. Don't give them a hard time for not wanting to drink from someone else's spittle-ridden cup! You are looking at DQ'ing competitors individually for violating an unusual (and non-IOF) rule, when perhaps you should look instead at voiding courses when water stops fail to provide easy access to adequate water without requiring a significant amount of time for a competitor to find a clean cup. And yes, on courses where the water stops are "trashed" and chaos, you WILL use a SIGNIFICANT amount of time. When the results lists and gaps between competitors often come down to much less than a minute, it is quite easy to lose a place (or several) by doing the above. And one alternative (not drinking water at all) is not acceptable, wise, or even medically-advised in certain circumstances, while the other (everyone carries their own water) is so far away from what the rest of the world is doing that perhaps only in the USA might it be considered.

I noted in a brief perusal of the USOF rules that essentially water stops are mandated to be AT CONTROLS. If you are changing rules, you might want to think about that one instead, which makes it harder to provide and service (and staff) water stops. They also call for a water stop every 2.5km, which I must say is very, very, very rarely achieved in my experience of USOF events. Not that I think having water this often is necessary anyway (and the COF or IOF guideline I can vaguely recall is something like every 25 minutes of the expected winner's time, and only on races over 30 minutes' length; see IOF 19.8 If the estimated winning time is more than 30 minutes, refreshments shall be available at least every 25 minutes at the estimated speed of the winner.). Based on the USOF rules, I would expect that if we're really going to be fussy about the water issue, then we'll be looking at a lot more headaches for organizers to ensure that every course at every event complies with the USOF water rules too....

USOF 29.9 On each course refreshments consisting of at least potable water shall be provided at least every 2.5 km. Refreshments shall be provided at the start and finish and at appropriate control flags and indicated on the description sheets as such. There shall be enough water for each competitor to have .25 liters (8 oz.) or more at each refreshment stop. In the event of hot weather additional refreshment locations are recommended. These additional locations need not be at control locations but must be indicated on the map. Water must be offered in a sanitary manner such that it is not practical for competitors to drink from ?community drinking jugs?.

Be sensible.

Allow organizers some leeway in how, where and how often water appears on the course, and allow competitors (who do NOT contaminate the water) to pour cleanly into their mouth if they so choose. Don't force me to lose tens of seconds searching (sometimes in vain) for a clean cup, and I won't force you to void courses where water doesn't magically appear at least every 2.5 kms and in a format where people can access it cleanly without undue loss of time, and in a way that is not practical for competitors to drink from "community drinking jugs" (bye-bye loose gallon jugs, hello huge containers chained to ground, etc...). It seems your rules are set up to cause both runners and organizers more unnecessary headaches.

I have never really understood why it was necessary for a country (e.g. USA) to have so many deviations from the IOF orienteering rules, but by following various discussions on Attackpoint, I am gradually learning why.

Sigh.

PS - and feet is almost certainly correct - there is far more risk of morbidity by simpling traveling to an event than there is by drinking the water, mouthed jugs or not....

just imagine the sweaty runner who drank form jug were Minna Kauppi, enjoy it and get on with your race

Rules aside, I appreciate cmpbllj's comment about sportsmanship. Orienteering is not a life and death activity, it's a sport, and the more people who follow good sportsmanship the better. If Eddie is taking the time to grab a cup and pour from the jug into it, he's higher in my estimation than those who think a few seconds are more important than good sportsmanship. Thank you, Eddie, for setting a good example.

Just a note -- at least one competitor this weekend was recovering from mono. He knows better than to drink directly from the jug, but would you have wanted to take the chance, if he had done so?

Neil, you make my day! :)

As an outsider to the USOF, it's funny to see how each federation seems to have those wonderfully contrived discussion about one particular point of rules.

The common point is that those rules are practically impossible to enforce, yet have appeared after the observation of something "disgusting" or unfair or unsportmanlike. I.e. they are rules appearing more by accident than essential rules defining the sport.

At one point in France, someone says we should get rid of all those rules that nobody can/care to enforce, and/or make a clear distinction betwen the "rules" and the "recommendations". Unfortunately nothing followed.

Well, even the IOF has problem with the no-following rule, and it's a much worse issue related to fairness.

BTW, I do remember the water control at the Stars Middle event was manned, and cups were pre-filled. Since it was also a map exchange point, it was kind of necessary but still, it happened in NA.

If what you're referring to by "mouthing the jug" means what it seems to imply, I have to submit that I don't think anyone here is really supporting putting one's mouth directly ON the jug. That statement is definitely clouding the issue....

I thought that was the issue. Perhaps I misread something, but I thought there was an implication that mouthing the jug were ok were it not for USOF rule 30 whatever. I don't care one hoot how people drink if they don't mouth the jug, and even in that case I'm not sure it is bad, only that I have an aversion to it. Certainly I have seen enough people do it to suggest that there is not consensus that it is bad, tho I 'm not suggestion anyone writing in this thread does it or advocates it.

I do think USOF rule 30 whatever is useless, and discussing that clouds the issue, in my mind.

there is far more risk of morbidity by simpling traveling to an event than there is by drinking the water, mouthed jugs or not....

Except that traveling to the event is a necessary risk given the intent to compete, whereas getting mono from a water jug is not a necessary risk of competition. I'll admit that I don't know how contagious mono is, and whether or not water jugs are a potential transmission vector, so in my sea of ignorance I'll simply pass on the risk (which has a trivial, if any payoff) and open my own jug, assuming I survive the journey to the meet :)

Then I guess we're talking about different things.

I don't think that putting your mouth directly on the jug is OK (whatever the risk level, it seems to be pretty bad etiquette). And that is against the (previously obscure) USOF rule 37.8 - seems to clearly "contaminate" the water.

However, I do think that pouring cleanly without putting your mouth on the jug is OK, and I thought that's what at least a large subset of people above were talking about. And in my mind, it does NOT break USOF rule 37.8, as it does not contaminate the water. And unless you are taking a shower with it, it should not waste more water than would be wasted in a hurried pour into a cup, drink from cup sequence.

I will personally continue to do what I currently do, which is:

1. drink from a cup if it is well-organized, clean, and easy to access (usually use a cup >50% of the time)

2. pour cleanly without contaminating or wasting the water if the cups are not clean or readily available and the jug is.

For my part, I do believe that both of these are within the USOF rules. And they are clearly not in violation of any IOF rule. So, I don't even consider it bad sportsmanship to do either of the above, since they both seem to be within the rules in my interpretation.

I will gladly spot Eddie his 5 seconds per water stop however, if that is what people think the difference is between good and bad sportsmanship.

Oy.

So bad sportsmanship is now for sale?
I didn't consider the free market option.

Until I see the Kenyan marathoners wear little fanny packs with water containers strapped on, I will not run with water on my person

How about Bjornar Valstadt as a role model? He ran a world cup race with a camelbak.

And, lots of runners at the WOCs in Switzerland and Japan were running with camelbaks.

I feel an aversion to the clothing of some orienteers I see around; it makes me feel quite unwell to behold. Can I get them disqualified for causing me a discomfort that's not a necessary part of competing? Or would that be a rule too far?

And if that's too far, why do we need rules about drinking techniques? After all, if someone does something actually dangerous (ie mouth on the jug), you could always sue them. I suggest carrying a camera to catch the evidence.

AZ already tried that fashion police thing. Didn't seem to work.

I think that is because it was based on voluntary compliance with good taste. Maybe if fashion police were empowered with some rule...

(btw: it seems to have worked better north of the 49th ;-) fwitw

I have tried pouring from the jug a few times, and I usually end up with lots of water on my shirt. Since I only drink water on longer races, I don't mind losing a couple of seconds pouring into a cup. It is quite inconsiderate to suck water from a jug, considering how many training hours are potentially wasted if someone gets sick.

If enough volunteers can be summoned, it's quite nice (and in the spirit of fairness) to have a cup handed to each competitor at a water stop.

For those who are concerned about germs, by the way, there are probably other infection routes to think about. Someone who has a virus may be sneezing, which could result in getting germs on his hand. That hand is used to pick up the jug, the handle of which is communal even if everyone uses a cup. If you pick up the jug, the germs then get on your hand, and from there you may be at risk of infection. I'm not intending to be sarcastic here, there really are numerous paths. Hand to hand contact (not much of an issue in orienteering) is one of the big items, or so I'm told, but I'm not an expert in this field.

Most germs don't live very long outside their host so probably aren't a huge issue (hand to hand and direct immediate fluid contact are the biggest vectors of infection, e.g. being sneezed on). Herpes is probably the biggest potential problem. If we're talking bodily fluids the people who collect the bloody and sweaty control cards in the finish chute are probably at far greater risk.

bloody and sweaty control cards? move on... this is the twenty-first century like...

speaking of blood... having controls forces many people to pass by the same places in the forest... and skin and blood samples get left on pointy branches for the competitors who follow... perhaps we should ban controls :)

as has been stated before, if you really care about the water problem, put instructions in the event bulletins... education is the way to go, not a totalitarian gop approach.

Wow.

This thread is brilliant.

Keep it up.

I try not to put my hands in my mouth while orienteering, but I often put water in my mouth.

This is a matter of risk mitigation. There are other risks in orienteering (like running through the forest, or driving to the meet), but thats no reason not to mitigate the risks you have control over as much as is practical. Seat belts, while not needed 999 times out of 1000, sure do come in handy that one time. The same could be true of drinking from a communal water jug.

At WOC competitors are often forced (by rule) to wear full leg covering while arms can remain exposed...all in a presumed effort to prevent the spread of blood-borne infection from scratches on shrubberies. Is this absurd? Probably. I usually bleed more often from my face than my legs while orienteering anyways. But, at WOC you would not be allowed to start those races without meeting the requirement, absurd or otherwise. Not putting mouth-parts directly on water jugs falls into this category. Maybe its crazy, maybe it isn't, but it is written into the USOF rules in one way or another and I believe the reason is to mitigate oral transmission of pathogens between competitors (and because some people find it gross).

Like Jon said, we could change the text in the rules to explicitly state not putting your mouth directly on the jugs, and then as Neil and others have pointed out, educate people about what is acceptable and what isn't. Point out that there is indeed a rule prohibiting direct mouth-to-jug contact. Then if there are witnessed incidents a person can file a grievance with the jury at that meet if they feel so inclined (just as following is disallowed and can be, but rarely is called). The jury can then decide on a case-by-case basis whether to simply reprimand or to enforce the now very specific rule.

well, from the length and the growth rate of this thread one can see that this topic IS a real problem. therefore, it is worth thinking about regulating it explicitly in the rules.

but I think the point is, as Janet and others said, the fairness and sportsmanship. even if it is for many people ok to pour the water in the mouth there ARE some people that find it disgusting, maybe because they are more sensible to this topic by nature. for these people it would be fair to make them feel comfortable, even if they are few and the majority doesn't have the same problem.

another point is fairness: if everybody has to use a cup then everybody looses the same amount of time. its the same with punching at the controls, you definitely loose time there, but nobody complains about that, because everybody has to do it, although there would be alternative technical solutions to register the runners without punching (like it is done at marathons).
if some people use a cup for ethical reasons and get a disadvantage over the directly-from-the-jug-drinkers this doesnt' seem fair to me.

anyway, i don't see that it is a big issue to have manned water controls where the water is readily poured in cups, it only takes one person to do this. especially on big or important events it should be organized this way.

The way things are arranged in the USA right now, having people pour drinks for the competitors simply won't work. The rules require too many water stops at controls for it to be possible to have enough volunteers. Yes, it works in other places, i.e. at the O-Ringen, where there are a relatively small number of water stops, located on roads, each serving many courses. But in the USA, it's common to have some water stops that will be visited by only 20 or fewer people, with only two gallons of water there. There's no way we can get enough volunteers to staff a water stop like that. I guess one possibility is to put out a whole bunch of little bottles of water and no cups, but I don't care for that idea so much. (Unless somebody was going to rinse them off and refill them.)

(I have been a water-pourer at a meet in the USA, at a World Cup race in 1992. I think we had three or four water controls, with people keeping color-coded cups filled with water and sports drink. We really can't get that level of effort together for any lesser kind of race. Although there is one annual event in these parts that always had a "full service" water stop, with a table and a tablecloth, and snacks as well as water. And maybe even candlesticks. Didn't always have a volunteer there, though.)

One thing I want to make clear here, though is that, as far as I can tell, a) nobody is claiming that putting the jug to one's mouth is okay, and b) nobody is admitting to doing that. Am I wrong? Does anyone hold either of those positions?

that's funny eddie... I tend to bleed more from my legs than my face. Perhaps height has something to do with it?

another point is fairness: if everybody has to use a cup then everybody looses the same amount of time.

Not really. Early runners are much more likely to quickly find a clean cup than late runners, who may never find one...

What is most offensive to me about this issue is that USOF actually has a rule about this, and, of course, it has nothing to do with what the rest of the O world is doing.

Wha? Ahh...you bastard!! :)

Yeah, I dunno why that is. Probably I try to push things out of the way with my head as I'm running. I know Eric tends to get head injuries alot, and he is significantly taller than me. Here he is on Monday. I got a cut under my nose from a branch in the face on Sat.

Eric does get head injuries a lot. That's true. But doesn't PG as well? The evidence seems confounding. But perhaps a more scientific study should be undertaken?

Yahoo! This thread is finally taking a significant tangent.

thank you jj for clearing me up. so manned water controls aren't a general option for all cases...

small bottles work fine, once on a small local race there was such a solution. you could just grab a bottle and take it with you or drink it and dispose it into a garbage bag. this worked really fine.

@JDW: i think the time difference between a from-the-jug-drinker and a cup user is much bigger then between an early and a later runner. although you have a point in your argumentation, its not the optimal solution.

another point is, that if you loose say 30 seconds with pouring water at the control you don't loose 30 seconds in your total racing time, because while you pour your water in this 30 seconds your body recovers, lactic acid is decomposed, blood is enriched with oxygen etc. so after your stop you are able to run faster or with more endurance, thus compensating your 30 seconds stop at least a little. this relativates the point of loosing some seconds for pouring into a cup.

Why not commission a design team to come up with a better way to dispense water. Below are a few specs:

1. Easy to hide but readily apparent at the control (Our club tends to place water stations at controls)
2. Sanitary & reduces the likelyhood of being abused
3. Portable and easy to lug to & from the control
4. Inexpensive & reusable
5. User dispensed
6. Quickly dispense the liquid

this head injuries topic is funny!

i get them a lot also from breaking through thicker thickets, since i don't care about injuries in the race and just run rudely through them.

a friend of mine is wearing a baseball cap or something similar with a shield, this helps him a little bit. I also lift my arms vertically to shield my face in extreme situations. but maybe this topic should be posted in an extra thread...

I really don't think we should be mixing the topics of cups and head injuries in the same thread. It just confuses the issues and is libel to lead to an accident such as this:

Blue cups are so early-2007. Everybody had switched over to blue ductape by mid-summer last year.

The solution for all but major, major events seems simple. Place no water on courses. Require everyone to carry their own. Those who are fastidious health nazis will clean their bladders and tubes after each event. Those with less rigorous standards will suck water through all that gray mould that grows in the tube if you have lower cleaning standards. Everyone can be happy.

In most countries, perhaps that's fine. But in the USA, the chances of getting a rules change enacted that would allow for no water stops is somewhat lower than the chances of getting volunteers to pour water. That's my perception, anyway.

Not much different in Australia. Which means most people prefer to stay with the existing situation and its real and/or imagined risks.

_________, I agree with your idea about getting rid of water on courses, but it has already been shot down.

BTW, besides the herpes and mono that have already been mentioned, meningitis is something else that can be passed through saliva. Maybe unlikely -- but still possible. So the issue here is not an "imagined risk" or the fact that it's simply gross to some people.

Although meningitis is uncommon, a person can catch it by having close personal contact with a person who is sick with the disease. There are also people who can carry the bacteria in their nose and throat but never become sick. Contact with these carriers can also cause someone to become infected with meningitis.

Experts believe that some behaviors can put people at greater risk for getting meningitis. These include:
...
- Sharing drinking glasses, water bottles, or eating utensils
...

[Reference]

Yes, yes, saw that thread. I think 'already shot down' is too final a judgement. It was more a case of irreconcilable differences of opinion. I think there are three clear camps.
1. Expects, nay, demands water be provided on courses and the mess be cleaned up afterwards by organisers. In doing so they are, by implication, prepared to wear the health risks that have been observed and recounted in this thread.
2. As above, but believe that if they harangue enough other competitors will change their behaviour and health risks will be eliminated. 3. Those that just choose to carry their own water because of a combination of reasons-
they don't trust other competitors' to drink responsibly
they don't trust organisers to place sufficient water in warm/hot weather
they believe it will give them a competitive advantage
they don't believe organisers should have to supply water and then search the forest for cups after the event.

I think 1 is defensible if silly.
I think 2 is the least realistic position. It's a bit like waiting for the tooth fairy to pay up for the last juvenile molar.

I think tomwcarr's photo is the answer...

1. everyone ties a blue plastic cup to their head
2. at the water control, they take off the cup and use it to drink
3. after drinking they attach the cup back to their head

The benefits are obvious:
* Everyone gets a "clean and safe" cup with no searching.
* No litter in the forest.
* Runners can run & drink if they want
* Organizers have less stuff to carry into the forest & clean up afterwards

Brilliant!

Where are the psychobabblers we need to discuss changing population behaviour en masse? Yes there are rules, the problem is people make a decision at the time to abide by them or ignore them, basic human nature and risk analysis. With my own orienteering if it's likely to be an event where I consider I will be likely to *need* water then I run with a 500ml bottle in a belt pack. Simple. Other occasions I'll take a punt and choose to press the button and dispense water from the container into a cup and drink. However, this takes me 2 or 3 cups as one barely wets my whistle. But I consider this time part of my orienteering - if I were really ana... concerned about pausing to drink and the impact on my time at a pissy local event I'd simply carry my bottle.

Note that it's often pretty warm and dry here in Western Australia and I make a habit of running with a water bottle on my longer training runs. This means I don't notice the huge increase in energy expenditure and inconvenience of carrying a bottle with me ;-) Or would I only notice it because changing a habit is one of the hardest things to do?

it would be very interesting to know how many of those advocating clean cups, gallons of water, tables with filled cups , etc for water stops (every 25 minutes) regularly volunteer their time to buy the water, put it out , man the water stop, and then clean up the mess afterwards. The whole exercise seems to be one of a very large amount of volunteer effort (how many clubs have an excess of volunteers) and wasted $. The responsibility for hydration should be given back to the orienteer. Those advocating that water stops should be part of the organizers job should put in the time and effort to make it happen.

Instead of spending all that time / effort and money for jugs on establishing and maintaining sanitary water stations just spend $30 a meet and raffle a Camelback or similar to help those not willing to buy one. Folks will rise to the occasion and do the right thing... what do they do when out on their own ?

well, here in Germany there are normally only one or two water stops at central places, where most of the courses cross and are thus available for all runners. therefore, you need just one or two persons to set up the water stop, fill the cups during the race, clean the cups and take the litter with them afterwards. and becaus there is some discipline at those manned stops there is not a big mess afterwards. therefore, the efford is quiete small and we also normally have many volunteers like wifes of the runners, older people or the people involved in the course setting, because they know the map already and cannot take part in the race anyway.
nevertheless, i think this makes no water stop every 25 minutes, you hit them normally only once or twice per classic distance race. but setting the water stop at a clever point could be a beginning, I guess.

about the money issue i must say, that tap water costs nearly nothing, cleaning the cups saves also money and normally we use these big military water cans mentioned by cmpbllj. the rest comes from the entry fee of the participants.

The cost of water is the embedded cost of transport and organisation.
And a certain water parsimoniousness if you are living under a severe water restriction regime.

"The responsibility for hydration should be given back to the orienteer."

now that's what i'm talkin about!

I read in a article about training for running that drinking is not really necessary unless you run more than an hour. Since reading that, and for races I will finish in about an hour, I try to hydrate well the day before the race and drink a cup of water just before the start. Seems to work for me. I carry water on the hot days and for longer races.

Does drinking water every 25 minutes in a one hour race, improve performance?

Does sipping water from a Camel Back continuously during a one hour race improve performance?

"Enquiring minds want to know".

"it would be very interesting to know how many of those advocating clean cups, gallons of water, tables with filled cups , etc for water stops (every 25 minutes) regularly volunteer their time to buy the water, put it out , man the water stop, and then clean up the mess afterwards.....Those advocating that water stops should be part of the organizers job should put in the time and effort to make it happen. "

Personally, I can't see that that would be very interesting. Some of the advocates of water on courses have no doubt put in considerable effort setting up water on courses. Some will have specialised in other meet-related tasks - for example, any meet director who assigns Valerie Meyer the task of schlepping water out into the forest is a fool. Some may not have volunteered at all at orienteering events, though I doubt if that is the case of very many here on Attackpoint. It doesn't matter - whether water on courses is a good idea or not doesn't depend on the amount of work any particular person or persons saying it is has done providing water on courses anymore than whether murderers being caught being a good thing depends on whether a particular person saying it is has personally apprehended a murderer.

What I'm getting from this discussion:

1. The requirement that there be water "at least every 2.5 km" and at control locations is unnecessary. The requirement should be loosened to something similar to international standards: water can be at prominent road/trail features and at spacing based on ~30 min for the winner.

2. Many clubs seem to be neglecting the requirement that "water must be offered in a sanitary manner such that it is not practical for competitors to drink from 'community drinking jugs'" Some competitors are neglecting the rule that you can't drink directly from the jugs, but if clubs were to keep up their half of the bargain and take the simple step of threading a string through the handles (or something similar), surely a lot more people would drink in a sanitary manner. A little education and sharing ideas amongst clubs, and maybe some creative signage at meets, and maybe this problem would disappear. This morning I noticed a "Don't spit in water fountains!" sign at the gym. It's probably not 100% effective, but I bet many people who were about to spit see the sign and feel guilty enough to change their minds.

The questions: is 1) above worth an attempt at a rules change? and who wants to come up with a clever "don't mouth the jugs" sign? Cookies to the winner.

Maybe you just need to put little spiked collars around the mouth of each jug. Alternatively, some Brita water filters have a hinged lid over the spout. You can pour water out, but when you try to mouth the spout, it stays shut. I know this from personal experience (stupid hinged lid). In fact, I think that it would be really easy to rig something up with a small round piece of plastic and a couple of twist ties.

With respect to the location of water controls, I feel that the amount of water should be weighted towards the end of the course. Most people hydrate before their starts and don't drink at the early water stations.

Both rules Christina mentions are USOF specific I believe. My question is why not eliminate both of them?

Item 1. The IOF rules handle item 1 in a better way (using time rather than distance - ie the USOF rule would require water on many sprint courses).

Item 2: And item 2 as mentioned earlier seems to have very little to do with describing the sport and just burdens the organizer. If you do want to keep a rule such as that I recommend putting it in the "fair play" section, and put the onus on the competitor not to mouth the jug. In fact IOF rule 26.1 already could be considered to apply: "Competitors shall show respect for each other, ..."

Item 2 again: I think that tying handles together makes it impossible for competitors to "free pour" into their mouths, which I feel most people here are agreeing is acceptable (even though it may be disturbing to some, though I'm not sure why).

In general I find the USOF has too many specialized rules that serve little or no benefit. This is especially true in ski orienteering. But that is for another thread

Another advantage to manned water stations; especially those along major roads.

This allows the site to serve as a fully manned aid station, with first-aid and emergency radios. I would like to see clubs utilize these more often. It's probably one of the biggest things we can do to improve meet safety.

Jugs???? I think I'll take a photo this afternoon of the standard arrangement in this locale. Its certainly no jug.

"Mouthing jugs" brought a completely different image to my mind...

two sets of jugs ( assuming more than one jug per station)? One for cup minded folk and one for those with a desire to "share" more with their fellow orienteers. Color coded to reduce confusion. Those who really want the risk of disease can drink giardia water from any convenient stream crossing.

not supplying water is hopelessly naive for organizers. trusting inexperienced athletes to bring the proper amount of water with them is dangerous. Further, to attract more "customers" organizers should be trying to find conveniences like water stops that add value to the races.

I wish that I could have found a way to shave off a couple of seconds during Saturday's sprint race, don't think I can blame that on stopping too long with water jugs.

Jugs????

I have to admit that even after living in the US for several years (and even getting to the stage where I think I understand American English) I'm not used to the use of the word "jug" to describe the water containers at water stops. "Gallon bottles" would be the expression I'd use.

Jug definition from Merriam-Webster

Getting volunteers for water stops sure seems like a problem to me, but I'm not certain if we've actually tried to advertise for waterstop volunteers.

I've noticed a decided preference for water at controls, both from competitors and setters. Using water not at a control means the leg has to virtually require the competitor to pass the water stop.

I have used bottled water at controls, both 1/2 L and 8 oz (about 1/4 L), including the exact product that J-J mentioned. At this year's Flying Pig, I used the 8oz bottles on an Orange (Intermediate) control and on a White (Beginner) control. I did it mostly because it seemed more convenient because of the limited amount of water I needed at those controls.

I do think it's important to not let this discussion stray into the "Should we have water or not" question. We have another thread for that. The question here assumes the event is providing water. The event that started this thread was the Team Trials, which is supposed to be preparatory or analogous to the WOCs. Ideally, we would do whatever is expected at a WOC. However, with limited volunteers you have to pick and choose how much you can do. Manned waterstops are nice, but I'd rather the organizers focus on courses and maps and other details first.

The only problem I have regarding not using a cup is the chance for spillage of a limited resource. It's usually difficult to get the water out there, so the event people are inclined to estimate a nominal amount plus a little more rather than a worst case amount. And the ground is often uneven or sloped, and the opened bottles can fall over and spill. I've found all the water gone and the ground wet. That usually happens on a hot day when you really need the water.

An even more complete dictionary definition, but it'll only work for 3 days.

It sounds completely natural to me to call it a gallon jug or a plastic jug. Probably not my first choice, but I'm certain I've used it myself.

For the British (at least - quite probably for other non American speakers of English) the word "jug" is equivalent to what an American would call a "pitcher". Just trying to eliminate any confusion.

I agree with cedarcreek that water should be at controls and not at some arbitrary location (e.g. on a road). Otherwise route choice will be governed by need for water (and it essentially adds an easy control to the course).

The issue of not using cups is not a new one - see here.

There is at least one major problem with water being placed at controls: that is you have to find the control before you get your water. Shouldn't be a problem early on, but later in the course it could be that a severely dehydrated competitor won't be able to think clearly enough to get there. A road, on the other hand, with cars and tables and even in some cases volunteers handing out water, would be a lot easier to find (and safer).

And the easiest workaround for the USOF rule about placing water at a control is adding a common control AT a convenient water location (on a road for example), which forces everyone to go there anyway. Have your manned water station with aid/radio/ambulance all in one easy-to-locate spot.

Shouldn't be a problem early on, but later in the course it could be that a severely dehydrated competitor won't be able to think clearly enough to get there.

Anybody operating that close to the edge doesn't belong out on the course at all. Or else they have special needs and have to bring their own water. If it's the organizer's responsibility to provide water because otherwise the competitors' brains are going to shut down, then this whole concept of orienteering is so broken that I want nothing to do with it.

I'm pretty sure the 2.5km rule is not in place so the top guy can quench his thirst every 12.5 minutes. Placing water every 30 minutes for the top finisher is fine for an event where everyone finishes within 20% of the winner, but, at least in the US, there are plenty of people who finish in 2-3 times the winning time. You're saying there should be water every 60-90 minutes for them?

Also, if you're going to put water on the road, please make sure it is on the road (not in a ditch out of view), at the location marked on the map (not 100m down the road), and with a reflector if it's a night event. Of course, those problems are all solved if, as noted by Wil, you just add a control on the road.

I'll put in my 2 cents of agreement with Wil, too. Putting one or a small number of water stops in very accessible locations, like on a road, and putting a control there, satisfies the USOF rule while making it a lot less cumbersome than putting water stops at multiple controls that are often much less accessible. And allows the realistic possibility of having the water stops manned.

The only drawback to this idea is that putting a waterstop/aid station at an accessible location like this would tend to add a constraint to the course design, all else equal.

You're saying there should be water every 60-90 minutes for them?

Okay, I probably drink a whole lot less on the course than most people do. So, how often do people expect and/or want to be able to drink on the course?

There are a lot of folks on this thread mentioning their "clean" pouring technique from the jug, meaning they don't touch lips to jug and don't waste water. I think the second part of that is bull. People in hurry tend to spill things; orienteers going through a water stop in close proximity to other competitors on their course tend to hurry. The result is a lot of water poured over heads and down shirt fronts.

I'm not a huge drinker during races but few years ago on a long course, I started getting very dehydrated. As I approached a control with water, I was passed by 3 or 4 top competitors running in a pack. As I came in sight of the control, I watched the last of their number hold a jug over his head and pour it over his open mouth, with water splashing all over him. He dashed off to catch the others and I arrived at the control to discover there was no water left at all. I was so angry that I had been physically capable of doing so at that moment, I would have chased him down and beaten him. It took me some 45 minutes to make it to the next water stop (walking most of the way), significantly increasing my time and suffering. I complained at the finish but I was ignorant of the rules mentioned above and nobody running the event seemed to care (they probably didn't know the rule either). Newcomers to the sport aren't likely to come back after that sort of experience.

Lack of a water stop or a water stop that is empty happens - I deal with it without dwelling on whether the meet director didn't plan correctly or someone ahead of me wasted water. But seeing someone do it is different - and now it appears that practice is widespread. I personally don't care if your lips touch the jug - I use the cups but I don't try to find an unused one, just one without dirt or leaves in it - but I understand how others find that offensive. Common sense and common courtesy dictate that you use the cups. If it'll cost you a few seconds to wait for someone or open a new jug, you can go on without drinking. It's just a racing decision, no different than any other you make on the course. And you're more likely to leave some water for the last people on the course.

I'm sure some of you will contend you lose just as much water using the cups. That doesn't pass the common sense test. Most of us are very practiced at pouring things from bottles into cups - we do it almost every day. Likewise, we drink directly from bottles frequently. The only place most of you probably use the "pour" technique is on the race course - so how practiced are you?

the WCOC meet today warned at the start table that there were no water stops on the courses. they provided small bottles of water for those who wanted to take them with them. these were small, commercially purchased, sealed bottles. what do we think of this idea?

Did the empty bottles make it back to the garbage bag at the finish area?

I use the pour technique on a regular basis while standing in front of my refrigerator. Which maybe explains why I can do it pretty well. (And maybe also explains other things, like why I'm a bachelor...)

I was going to say that of everyone who claimed to use the pour technique, J-J would be the one I'd most expect to be very proficient at it.

When I visited my relatives in Damascus, Syria, in the 1990's, they kept an unglazed ceramic jug of water in the dining room. Everyone drank out of that jug when they were thirsty -- lips never touched the jug. During my travels in Lebanon and Syria I noticed others drinking this way. My impression is that everyone in these countries learns to drink without touching their lips to the jug. I think it is a skill which, if learned early, can be learned by almost anyone.

I suppose that if orienteering ever caught on in these countries, they wouldn't have our water stop issues because they would all drink from the jug without spilling or contaminating.

Holy cow -- I may have to totally rethink my position on this issue!!!

Frequent drinking from water bottles could cause "water lips"
http://www.9news.com/news/article.aspx?storyid=928...

p.s. I don't like the individual-bottle approach that mosquito mentioned -- too wasteful. And who would want to carry a bottle around the course? Get a hydration pack already...

Oh for crying out loud. The commenters on that page are making a whole lot more sense than Dr. Berzin. I just got home from playing trumpet for 1.5 hours at a band rehearsal. By now I should have absolutely horrible facial lines if this line of reasoning holds any, um, water. We trumpet players don't just put our lips together like a water bottle user. We squeeze them that way by contracting the facial muscles to prevent any air leaks while we blow into our instruments. Then we do it over and over and over again. We probably all need "cosmetic treatments" immediately! I better forward this article to the trumpet players list right away!! Yikes!!!

fossil, I was thinking the same thing when I read the article. All those years of playing trumpet two hours a day and I should already be wrinkly. (Wait, am I?!)

No, I think the trumpet embouchure is very different from the cigarette embouchure. (But I gave up on trumpet in 1974, I think, and I never smoked, so I could be wrong.) Oboe players might be in trouble, though.

OMG - as a former oboe player, this means I could be a victim of this terrible fate (although I think I'll mentally file this in the same category as a letter I once received advertising foot tanning for runners - apparently they thought that sock lines were the worst problems runners face).

mh, maybe we also get a smiling faces by using cups at water controls...

but to come back to the discussion: I found an interesting solution for a water control at the European Orienteering Championship : Water Control at EOC 2008
There was a garbage bag attached, where the cups could be depleted.

Ok, such a post needs some minutes to set it up, but has the advantage of pre-filled cups and doesn't need to be manned if there are enough cups for everyone (which you can check if you know the number of runners which will hit the control).

What do you think of this?

bbrooke: i wasn't advocating the individual bottle give-away, just reporting it. i always carry my own water, & think that's the best way to solve all these issues.

there's a big difference between blowing and sucking

I bought some fancy water bottles from fancy running store last year before attempting to run my second ultra marathon. One was Camelback reviewed as Best Water Bottle; another one was Ultimate Direction. Idea I had in mind was that I would rely less on aid stations and rehydrate on the run using my "fancy" water bottles. It did not work out that way...

Both brands required significant extra effort to suck water out of the bottle instead of just poring into my mouth when using caps or regulas water bottles. First time I attempted to rehydrate myself during the run made me stop since I was not aware beforehand how hard I would have to suck on my water bottle to get liquid out.

I still use both water bottles occasionally, I don't think I have developed smokers lips however I do find some truth in what Dr. Berzin stated in article.

Sylvia displaying proper drinking ettiquette. :-)

And look at this, problem solved :)!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DealtxxqeGE

"they provided small bottles of water for those who wanted to take them with them. these were small, commercially purchased, sealed bottles"
I hope this is not the same as "bottled water". A huge waste and rip-off. I can't imagine my clubmates at WCOC doing that, so I assume they were using water bottles which they are able to use again and again.

Eureka developed a pump for their water bottles. It screws onto the top of the drum and two quick pumps is enough to fill a cheap plastic glass. The idea is that each runner takes a new plass and pumps their own water. Less spillage that way.

yes coach, they were poland spring or something similar. i wasn't pleased either.