Discussion: Fast running times

There was discussion about marathon times a few months ago after Hanny won the Melbourne Marathon.

World of O today has news of two fast runs by Scandinavian orienteers: Marten Bostrom (Finland) 29:16 for 10,000m at Palo Alto, and Emil Wingstedt (Sweden) 1:06:41 to take 3rd place in the Norwegian Half-Marathon Championships in Frederikstad.

These type of times just make we want to hang up my shoes.

http://scienceofsport.blogspot.com/2008/04/paris-m...

Now Marten Bostrom has run 1:05:59 for HM at the Finnish Champs - see World of O.

Swiss orienteers are running too! Daniel Hubmann and Matthias Merz ran 14:44 and 14:52 for 5000m at a track meeting in Zurich.

Don't hang up your shoes yet urthbuoy. Marten may be fast, but he can be out-navigated http://sandiegoorienteering.org/Results/2008/0119_...

Marten did run a marathon 6 days before he posted that result. I think he may have been dogging it intentionally.

Mårten Boström has also been 9th at WOC, won a Bronze medal at the European Champs, a silver medal at Nordics and a silver medal at the Junior World Champs. So his 'navigation' obviously isn't too bad...

Hey, if Wyatt has bragging rights, he's entitled to use them!

My german friend is very fast. His running orienteering for the german club DJK Adler 07 Bottrop. Let me present 28 years old: Alex Lubina!!
28'29 in 10k =)
Compare for yourself: http://www.alexander-lubina.de/bestleistungen.php

Pretty good times - will he be running for germany at WOC?

On another tack Karl, have you made any good films lately?

Think he's aiming for the olympics this year actually. Think he's okay from his (last) injury now and training hard again. Yeah, he's sooo fast.
You're welcome =) No, I sold my camera 2006 in lack of time, but now I'm responsible for making entertaining daily movies from JWOC (for the runners self to watch the day after) here in Gothenburg. But youtube and my blog make it possible to upload and show all what i've done, so when I got the time I will split and upload everything I've done for you all to see!! =)

Alexander Lubina actually won one of the qualifying heats at a World Cup Sprint in Dresden 2004 and then placed 16th in the final (3 seconds behind Emil Wingstedt and beating Thierry Gueorgiou).

Bostrom ran 2:18:50 in the Ottawa marathon last weekend. He was trying to run 2:15 to make the Finnish team for Beijing. While he's not doing much orienteering at the moment, it will be interesting to see if he's in the Finnish team at WOC this year.

Boström 1:03:41
http://results.active.com/pages/displayNonGru.jsp?...

These times remind me of a question that's been bothering me for a while. I know I have no chance of running times in that range, which made it clear to me before I turned 21 that it was pointless trying to be competitive at international O elite level. (I have a 2:55 marathon, could probably run sub 2:50 by a little if my life depended on training for it; Boström could probably run that if he had never trained in his entire life). So I don't bother (to be fair, I have weakened once or twice and given making an Australian team a go).

Tactless question for those who are also in this boat but still try to compete at the international level in O: how do you get past the knowledge that your running speed is never going to make you competitive in order to get motivated to spend time trying to do as good a job as you can?

(I am specifically talking about racing at WOC; if you enjoy orienteering and want to race at, eg, O-Ringen, and see how you do, then that's great; more power to you.)

If this post exhibits all the tact of Larry Summers, then apologies in advance.

Its trying not to win the race outright but to win the battles between you and a fellow orienteer who is running at your level. If you happen to be 20mins behind Merz, your 20mins behind Merz, you can either accept it or train harder and only be 19:30mins behind Merz, then hey, thats an improvement! If you knock off 10 sec a month, thats 2mins a year!
Every second counts. Its all about how much you want it. I know i will never be a world champion but that doesn mean i'm not going to put +500hours a year into trying to gain that extra second....or hour as the case may be! This can happen (look at bottom of M21) or this can happen. No matter what one it is - pick your self up and get stuck in again.

I am not quite asking that (almost, though). I like racing people too (though I must admit, not as much as I like just running in the woods by myself). Competing at your appropriate level is just fine and dandy, if that's what you enjoy. But why not try to race those races (eg, H21L or H21 at O-ringen, for example) rather than try to swim with the sharks when you are not one and have no way of growing up to be one? It would be different if you could run those times and needed to learn to navigate: that can be done (maybe). But you can't turn a 2:55 marathoner who is not a kid any more into a sub-2:20 marathoner - and therefore, you can't turn him into a WOC competitive runner either, no matter how much you train the poor guy.

c.hill seems to have no motivation problem in this setting, which is great for him. I do. I'm just trying to understand why other people don't have this problem. c.hill's answer was a good answer. Maybe he and I are just different when it comes to motivation.

The reason I singled out WOC is that it is one of the best examples of what I'm talking about. If you are not competitive, then WOC is just a very inefficient way of getting orienteering time (it takes more than a week of your life, probably two or three, just for a race or two). And it's not even a very good race for the people in the tail end of the field, because there aren't that many people at the right level to compete with. The field is selected to contain more than its fair share of Boströms and less of the people at the level we are talking about.

I think feet's question is appropriate. I don't have a good answer. I do find it amusing that Boström, always fast and faster now, is still not likely to be in the top 10 at WOC on most days.

For me, it's been a matter of seeing how good I can get with some training. A good benchmark for measuring performance is WOC results, since the field is fairly consistent from year to year, even if the names at the top are different. So for me, a good measure of my progress (or regress) is percent behind in a WOC race. Having said that, I've given WOC 4 tries now, and am not very likely to run more.

a very unsatisfying answer is that I just don't think about it. I mean if I wanted to get myself depressed I could just imagine an adorable puppy that's lost its mommy. Also another trick is to only think about running at WOC races when you are hyped up on endorphins... then it's way easier to have delusions of grandeur. A lot of my daydreaming when I'm running long runs involves running really fast at WOC. Also, I'm not sure what the cut-off for talented runner is ... Schirminator's mile times are pretty good but are they good enough for feet to consider him capable of training hard for WOC? if I could run a 16:00 5k would I be fast enough or do I need to be sub 15s?

i'm still only a junior, and don't ever expect to win WOC or JWOC but still you need the motivation... for me it's not neccesarily to win, but say to get to on an A final.
and if i do that next year it could be to not be in the final 3rd of the A final and so on.
i'm still not winning, but i will be really proud of myself if i can acheive either of these, because i don't hav to compare myself to the winner but maybe a little bit behind the winner, because i know it's a different class which i'm never going to reach.

If you're not going to ever be in that standard don't try to compare yourself to them

how do you get past the knowledge that your running speed is never going to make you competitive in order to get motivated to spend time trying to do as good a job as you can?

I don't believe in an afterlife, so this is all I've got. Might as well see what I'm capable of doing, even if I can never be the very best in the world. Seems like a lot more fun than sitting on the couch.

I think we need to frame this question such that the economist can answer itself, or socratically induce us to answer for him, viz., couch it in a game theoretic framework.

Let's imagine two classes of actors: A) rational agents with some sort of vNM assessment of their ability, the field's ability, and so forth. Then, another class B) with some sort of bizzarro utility functions, bounded rationality, delusions, etc...

What sort of equilibrium ensues? [Feel free to promulgate some assumptions here.] What happens if there are only 'A's? What is the dominant strategy? Assume a uniform distribution of abilities, or something crazier? Do we end up with a WOC field of the elite and the rest of us (less the hyper rational feets) or do we go somewhere else? Is the system unstable? Are we left instead with 8 nations as everyone else realizes resistance is futile? Pray tell?

Gosh, I know I need an editor, but "itself"--that was some sort of freudian slip. I should have corrected rather than calling attention to it...

Wow. For someone not turned 21 to work out their PB in all races for the future is mind boggling. I only started running training when I was 19 and by 22 and 23 was still finishing last in road and cross country races. People develop at different rates and you only reach your potential by doing a lot of training over many adult (mainly) years. Seb Coe's formula for success at the 1980 Olympics was 10 x 52 x 7. Sure, people have different ultimate potential, but what matters is giving it a go and getting as close as you can to your own best. There is nothing to beat doing that.

In my position as resident a$$hole (of which I am proud), I'll offer up two brutally honest hypotheses for why people would do this. Keep in mind, my experience here is based on observations of aspiring cross-country ski racers in Canada, and not orienteering, so it might not be applicable. Anyway, my hypotheses are:

(1) Self-delusion
(2) Financial solvency of the bank of mom and dad.

Andrey Khramov ran 14:05 for 5000 m, 8:12 for 3000 m and 3:53 for 1500 m

One question for the US is this: hundreds of college kids run sub-15 5Ks every year (hell, probably a few dozen run sub-14 - OK, so most probably aren't citizens, yet); why can't we get one of them to take orienteering seriously after they run out of college eligibility? I've known 30-ish minute 10K runners that have spent $40 in gas to win $100 in a road race. It doesn't seem to take much cash to incent a poor, post-college athlete.

On a more personal (albeit, vicarious) level, chasing windmills at WOC (or JWOC) is a wonderful pursuit. How many people have an opportunity to represent their country at an international sporting event? Look at the Olympic swimming heats that they don't show on TV - those athletes have earned the right to be there by proving they are the best in their countries. Who cares that Michael Phelps beats them by 10% or 20% or more. They are Olympians.

This is the most depressing discussion I have come across in a loooong time....

What happen to "success is 99 percent perspiration and 1 percent inspiration". When I was growing up nobody told me nothing about genetic potential, body type and south african heritage. But then again, I should watch back Gattaca, mull over my inferior gene pool, renounce my parents for lack of slow twitch fibers, concentration-camp-fed body type and the lack of insight to move and raise me up at 2800 meters elevation. Switch the remote to NBC sports and watch in amazement how great our sportsmen are while devouring the third pack of nachos.

So cheer up. I am sure being a top olympian, (let's use the swimming example above) working your ass out, being born with the genetic potential and having reached and realized it at that, and still getting beat at the finals of the Olympics by 10% - 20% must suck.

Again cheer up, put into the sport whatever your goals and desire drive you to, enjoy it, sweat it, and get on with your life.

I agree with Nikolay. Feet, you're just going to beat yourself up with this, because guess what? There is ALWAYS somebody better. Maybe not now, but tomorrow for sure.
I know, I know, it's not true for everyone, but I'm sure it is for everyone here, and 99.999% of the people on this planet .

Interesting to see the responses. I thought I was being the resident a$$hole, so I'm pleased to see someone else taking the role as well.

Let me just say two things.

First, success is 99 percent perspiration and 1 percent inspiration only if you're prepared to define success as 'whatever you can achieve if you try.' (No matter how hard I try, the result is still going to suck, as far as any objective judge is concerned, if I don't have any talent.) But if you define it that way, why value getting beaten to a pulp at elite level more than just having a good run at your local club event? Or just going out for a long run by yourself? Those seem fine motivations to me. Maybe I'm just less competitive - in orienteering - than the rest of you.

And second, I'm not trying to talk other people down, just wondering what makes them tick.

Anyway, enough. Sorry if anyone was offended.

Everybody has talent; its just a question of finding what you are good at or at least enjoy doing.

In terms of top level orienteering or running I don't think you can tell how close you are going to get until you do the work. That's running fast, running long, running hard, lots of times and not getting injured over many years.

It really is pointless to start out talking about WOC/Olympics when you are 19 or 20 and haven't done the work or developed at the same rate as your peers. WOC/Olympics could be where you end up, but it is a stupid goal to have first up (I accept that "feet" is a lot closer to it). You start at club level, then State/Region, then National, then International, and finally World. As you progress through those levels you should make personal assessments of whether you think putting in the hard work is worth it, whether for success or for enjoyment.

Yes, 2.55 is not a competitive world class Marathon time, not even close. Could you run it faster if you specifically trained for it? Maybe. Is the Marathon distance your best? Maybe not. The bulk of the population have a more even mix of fast/slow twitch fibres, at least starting out. That means that 800m - 5000m is much more suited to many people than a marathon.

Is flat out speed necessary for orienteering success? No.
Orienteering is a stop-start, fast-slow activity - it is very different to road or track racing. It suits different people.
You can't say that a person who runs sub15 for 5,000m will be more successful than a sub16 runner. The sub15 guy/girl has less time to think for a start, if he/she runs at that speed. It will be the guy/girl that is most self/map/terrain aware and makes the best decisions that will be more successful.

Lets steer away from self-fulfilling prophesies, and thinking you can map out the future. There is no predetermined fate or destiny - it is in our hands. Maybe World Masters?

just to give a example of someone who was not even close to running fast times posted anywhere above..it happened in 96 - and i believe ( i that time i could run easy under 17min/5k ) he was not able maybe to even run under 18 min( maybe i am wrong ). probably he was 18 at the time (..we had a week of training together with other juniors..) but he was dead on in nailing tons controls- maybe just lack of speed..it took him about 7 year to become a world champion in orienteering- not running ( and lots of places above 50 at major orienteering events ).. but then he did it .. several times..you all heard (probably ) about Thierry G. ..well train on, dear friends, and have a goal.

Steve Vernon is BritishOrienteering Participation Manager
He was 4km cross-country national champion in 2003 and 2005, and 44th at the World Cross Country Championship .

Iain Donnan ran a 13:53 5k this year, he's been on the scene with Edinburgh orienteers for years.

Fast enough, but can we get them to orienteer? No: they're happy in their own sports, and probably couldn't read a map for toffee.

Because it's fun.
Duh.

I've gone through (long) phases like this myself - wondering why I'm even trying at the WOC level if I'm 30% slower than the top guys. But I'm with Cristina to a large extent:
I don't believe in an afterlife, so this is all I've got. Might as well see what I'm capable of doing, even if I can never be the very best in the world. Seems like a lot more fun than sitting on the couch.
And in particular, at age 35, PG's pointed out that I've only got a few more years left to see what I'm capable of on an overall level, so I might as well try now. And as I've trained more, I have gotten faster, perhaps down to 20% slower on running alone, which is faster now that any time in my teens & 20's. If I can push through another 2 years even harder, maybe, just maybe, I could get to 10% slower, and then with good navigation, could make a A-final, and get a place (e.g. 50th...) in a real World Champs. Unlikely, perhaps, but it's now or never, so I'll give it try.

I was talking to Hammer at the Buffalo Meet about how to get good runners into to sport. Now I am on a Team where we have 9 guys that run 14:30 5ks or faster consistently. I talked to all of them and they said if it was a matter of winning money they would show up to an orienteering event. Now they might not do well in the woods at all but in an easy sprint they would be pretty competitive. Now this is probably true for over 1000 college runners. But really I think we need to stop talking about what we don't have and can't do, and start talking about what the US has that nobody else does. Then we can start building orienteering. Ya it may take some years but once the sport starts to grow and get more competitive it will really take off.

OK, so I haven't weighed on this thread or the 'Future of US O' thread until now because I was waiting for someone like Schirminator to say exactly what he just stated. He is absolutely right!!

I would suggest the USOF and/or COF put together a committee (soon) to brainstorm ways to develop sprint orienteering to be attractive to the over '1000 college runners' that can run sub 15 minute 5K's. Why a committee? because the status quo ain't good enough. To make this happen is not reinventing what is done in Scandi but rather to get a buy in from the athletes (train more), the clubs (rejig their race offerings) and the federation (changing policy).
For example, can the sprint champs or a series of high profile sprints be scheduled in a way that doesn't conflict with the college/Uni Cross Country and track seasons? For example, place the intercollegiate champs in between those seasons (January?) somewhere in the US south (Disney is my choice). Then spend money to get a good marketing for that race and open it up to Euro orienteers looking for solid warm climate racing and training.

We know we can produce athletes that are fast enough we need a means to get them to choose to do 10-15% of their racing as O. That is not to say the current group of athletes aren't good enough it is an important means to increase our talent pool. The more the merrier.

Like Schirminator says 'we need to starting talking about what nobody else does'. Linking sprint-O to the largest pool of young fast runners in the World (US College) seems like a logical start.

I'm pretty jazzed that the US and Canada have some young fast runners. Time to make it happen domestically.

I love sprints. I think the challenge is there because of the increased pace at which you have to run. Western Australia has seen solid attendances of metro and sprint races over the last few years (admittedly not aimed particularly at attracting elite road runners) but have found very few people make the jump from metro events into the bush...
Lots of reasons - time, travel etc. Just don't assume that lots of people running around Disneyland is going to equate to lots of people running in the forest.

Has anyone thought about offering cash prices for sprints. Making a 3 -5 sprints series during a several months period. Making sure the events are well advertised in the running community / university XCountry clubs.

It is a good incentive and might inspire some of the running crowd to at least show up and see what is this Orienteering sport about.

Maybe USOF can authorize an experimental program like that in one fall or spring season, and we could see the results from the program whether we get some of the fast kids to fall in love with the sport / the opportunities it offers.

In most long/classic races, one spends a fair amount of time not actually reading the map or making decisions.

In a good sprint, there are decisions to be made every few seconds. It tests navigation at speed perhaps more than map interpretation, but I wouldn't knock it as a form of orienteering. There are plenty of middles and longs which aren't particularly challenging technically.

A French guy who was at one point one place off the national XC team and still winning national club relay golds, so a damn fast runner, joined our orienteering club and loved it. Even after two years I was still beating him in sprints - even without mistakes his running-speed while map-reading was slower than mine.

This isn't to say the cash-prize idea won't work, and I'd love to see it tried. But it could be orienteers that win the prize money for a while yet :)

Right now I am trying with Help from the CNYO club to get a bunch of small sprints maps around Syracuse. The hope would be in a year or Two, that I can get a solid sprint series going with small cash prizes at each event. It would culminate in something like the sprint series with a final which would be open to anyone. Ideally the prize money for that would be 1-5k for the winner. The second and third place would get percentages like 65% and 35%. I am pretty sure we can find sponsors up here since road racing is so big. It might take a couple years to really take off, but thats the general idea. I think if this kind of thing could start happening all over the sport would begin to grow, and people would begin to move from sprints to the woods as well. But right now I think we could show to WOC in about 3-4 years with a powerhouse of sprint athletes. I like to think of like this. In the past US running was dominated by sprinting on the elite level, and in distance we just could not compete. But over the last few years mid distance and distance running has really gone to a whole new level in the US. Yes we are no close to the depth of good runners like Kenya, But we have a few and that few will grow. But if you look at the NCAA this years and what kind of times it took to make Nationals and win Nationals it was pretty impressive. For example this indoor season a guy on my team did not go to nationals with a 4:00.16 mile time because 16 other people broke 4min this year. My point is that if we start with sprint orienteering and become very good at that then we will eventually be able to branch out, but we should start where we are the strongest first so that over time we can develop our weaknesses into strengths.

Sounds good to me Erin. Go for it!