Discussion: 50k on treadmill Matthias Kyburz

i am watching it ( and Matthias is half way into his attempt to break 50k record on treadmill), happened today
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KkZjJySq9AQ&fe...
i think is the right link- great show- few orienteers invited live there

Congrats Matthias!!

Awesome ! Congrats Matthias!

Great performance.
Great guests.
Great publicity for orienteering.
How am I only the fourth comment?

The rest of us - huff - are - puff - still running.

Amazing

Does anyone know who officiates these records? How is it determined that the treadmill is calibrated correctly? Asking for a friend :)

From Runners World:
On April 16, Swiss orienteer Matthias Kyburz ran 50 kilometers on a treadmill in 2:56:35, taking 50 seconds off the record set in February by German Florian Neuschwander. Before Neuschwander, American Mario Mendoza ran 2:59:03 in January to break the previous record of 2:59:49, set by ultrarunner Michael Wardian.

Kyburz wasn’t planning to attempt the record this year. However, when his planned races were canceled or postponed, like many races around the world, because of the coronavirus pandemic, he decided to not let his winter training go to waste.
More from Runner's World

“I haven’t done anything like this in eight years when I did a world record attempt,” Kyburz told Runner’s World. “It was 12 guys and we ran on the treadmill for 24 hours and set the world record, but that was only two hours on for me.”

Right from the start of his record run, Kyburz’s treadmill effort looked smooth. But he started slower than record pace on the first half, so the Swiss athlete needed a negative split on the second half. Kyburz mentioned struggling at the 30K and 45K marks, and also getting dizzy around 38K. He wasn’t sure he was going to continue after that, but when it passed at 40K, he powered through the pain in his legs and captured the record, averaging a 5:40-per-mile pace.
Within a minute of finishing, Kyburz was celebrating with his wife, who was one of a few people with him for his run because of social-distancing guidelines. He popped champagne and blasted confetti before announcing his plans for relaxing.

“Recovery is easy because I will go home because you should stay home, so I’m going there and laying on my sofa and eating a hell of a lot of chocolate,” he said. “I think this is what I’m going to do the next two weeks.”

Kyburz did just that when he got back to his apartment. His wife surprised him by laying out 50 chocolate bars—one for every kilometer—and he plans to slowly eat them all over the coming weeks.

By the way, orienteer Martin Dent (Red Roos, Canberra) was a member of the Guinness World Record team that set the 24 hour record for a male team in Sydney, on April 30th 2017

"Running over 10 marathons back to back to back (almost a marathon each!) the 12 runners set the records to a mindblowing distance of 424.63km"

More at https://www.outruncancer.com/guinness-world-record...

His wife surprised him by laying out 50 chocolate bars—one for every kilometer—and he plans to slowly eat them all over the coming weeks.

Wow, sounds like he's going after another world record there. Not one I could ever aspire to but I would make an honest effort at the shortest time...

Looked up the world record for a road 50k and it's 2.43, which is a bit more modest than I would have expected (thinking that a 2.12 marathoner would be able to do that by doing another 7.8k at 4 min/km pace, which isn't far above jogging pace if you're a 2.12 marathoner).

Might be better to do the 7.8k beforehand as a warmup; after a 2:12 marathon, I think there are very few who would be ready to do anything more.

Seems the record didn't last long, with reports that two Russians have done 2.44 and 2.45 (presumably this particular record doesn't involve dope-testing).

Managed to source some footage of the Russians training for their attempt

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R4qjb8bhlEk

I've got a historical context question.

The fact that Kyburz can earn a world record in "regular" running (no navigation, no rough terrain), suggests that he's an elite athlete based just fitness and speed alone. And I think Maja Alm maybe qualified for the Olympics in 5k? I'm sure there are others I'm missing.

Fitness/speed-wise, how do the most elite orienteers today compare to ones from 10, 20, 40 years ago? And how have they compared to other running athletes from 10, 20, 40 years ago? In other words, are orienteering athletes getting faster or slower compared to their track/road peers over time?

I'd love to hear the thoughts of a certain AP regular named Kris Jones on this.

Some track events (800m) have really slowed down over the past few years.

There have always been orienteers who were speedy in flat races: the first British Orienteering champion had PBs of 7.52 for 3,000m and 13.36 for 5,000m...

@Nev-Monster: Nijel Amos ran 1.41.89 last year, hardly slow

Gordon Pirie? (or Chris Brasher)

Roger bannister surely

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gordon_Pirie

and on Chris Brasher:

He was one of the pioneers of orienteering in Britain and can claim the first public mention of the sport in an article in The Observer in 1957:

"I have just taken part, for the first time, in one of the best sports in the world. It is hard to know what to call it. The Norwegians call it 'orientation'..."

Love Amos and front running 800m runners! Especially when they rig like crazy!

Now we only have to teach Amos how to orienteer...

Malin Wästlund won a couple orienteering World Cups and ran the 10K at Bislett (and was scheduled to run the Olympics before she burned herself out, training both for orienteering & running, and declined her spot).

Jan Fjaerestad- marathon 2:13:31
Anders Gjerderud- 3000 steeplechase 8:08.02 Does he count as an elite orienteer? I know he coached some elite orienteers.

To respond to Pink Sock's question comparing eras-
I think the trend is clear from the dominance of old names dropped so far.

Orienteering has lost the ability to attract top level pure runners, and at risk of diverting a pleasant thread I will strongly suggest that this is to a great degree the result of our formats and course setting which provide no avenue for a anything but a top level navigator.
No problem with having a tech emphasized Middle, but the Long has become almost as technical.
I had hopes for the Sprint to provide an opportunity for a running dominant orienteer, but that has also evolved towards the technical puzzle solving.
Ultra longs? I haven't kept up, but I've seen way too many technical versions of this length to hold out any hope.

Carsten Jørgensen still holds the Danish records in 10000 (just under 28) and Half mara (just under 1:02)

@ErikW: You are obviously correct that modern maps and course planning have conspired to shift the focus away from pure running towards much more technical navigation, but I still believe any of the three modern greats (Thierry G, Daniel H, Olav L) would have been capable of winning even in the eighties when Øyvin Thon, Morten Berglia, Jøgge, Petter Thoresen etc were dominating, even though those guys mostly had better 3K and up personal bests: The best today simply don't train that much on pure flat speed.

@EricW you sound regretful! All the philosophy of orienteering I have read suggests that we are after a combination of navigation and running. So why should we regret the absence, or lack of success, of pure runners?

So had I "I had hopes for the Sprint to provide an opportunity for a running dominant orienteer". But the way "sprint" was implemented favours endurance over speed. The "Sprint" World Championships has a "Sprint" Relay, a rest day, a Knockout (Qualification and Final on the same day), another rest day, and the Main event (Qualification and Final on the same day).

The IAAF don't schedule more than 1 race per day of distances greater than 200m . This structure of "Sprint O" disadvantages runners with more running than navigation.

In terms of speed - a minority of people with more "slow twitch" muscle are suited to track events 3,000m - 10,000m. The majority of the population have a more even mix of fast and slow twitch which is more suited to 400m-1500m track events. So the structure of "Sprint" orienteering is not attractive for most fast runners.

Which is why you often see the same people win "Sprint", Middle and Long.

@gruver "So why should we regret the absence, or lack of success, of pure runners?"
Personal reason- I favor inclusivity over exclusivity, but I guess that is an individual choice.
Collective reason- because "our" sport is shrinking, and that is using a diplomatic word. If we care about the sustainability of the sport, let alone growth, we need to be more inclusive, not less.
Granted there may be other factors, but this is one factor we clearly have control over.

Combination of skills? Absolutely, but not the same combination for all formats. The results lists say it all. "Cream always rising to the top" is not a good sign.

Check out skiing (Nordic and Alpine) for a better model of formats

@Terje- New guys hanging with the old guys?
I'm not going to give you this.
On a current Middle ddistance/technical course, yes, the new guys can do better than "hang", probably winning more than 50%. Their tech skills and consistency cannot be denied.

However, even acknowledging this is contrary to the best evidence I am aware of.:
WOC 93 Short course, moderately, not super technical-
Thierry (still prime a few years ago) came close, but failed to beat Petter's time. I think the terrain has stayed remarkably the same, and I doubt there is anyone who knows both time periods of that terrain better than I do.

On an older style Long course with longer legs, but still some tech change-of-pace, sorry, the old guys dominate.
With a couple exceptions, they were primarily forest runners as well.

Charitably, I'll agree to calling it a draw.
Which is the healthier state for the sport? I think the evidence is clear and already in front of us.

BTW- On the women's side there has been real progress. The new women dominate, in all regards, except for Annichen, and possibly somebody I'm forgetting.

I remember reading a Swedish "old vs new" comparison on the same terrain(10+? years ago ) comparing men and women that seemed to support all of the these conclusions.
Granted none of this data is well controlled or of sufficient sample size, but it is the best we have.

I'm puzzled.

O-ing: The "Sprint" World Championships has a "Sprint" Relay, a rest day, a Knockout (Qualification and Final on the same day), another rest day, and the Main event (Qualification and Final on the same day).

EricW: Check out skiing (Nordic and Alpine) for a better model of formats

Is there a substantive difference between sprint orienteering and nordic skiing sprint formats? Weren't both primarily designed to take the racing out of the forest and put it on small loops in front of TV cameras.

One big difference is time:

Nordic XC Ski sprints seldom last more than 2-3 minutes.

O sprints usually 12-13 minutes or more (with the Knock-out shorter).