Discussion: How high to hang controls?
in: Orienteering; General
Oct 31, 2005 9:10 PM
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Since I know j-j has a strong opinion on this, I'd especially like to hear his answer to this question. But I am also interested in other people's opinions. Is there a different answer for advanced "normal" courses and mass-start events (goats, etc.)? How about for sprints v. longer courses?
Oct 31, 2005 10:58 PM
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rm:
Strictly speaking, control height is not exactly the same as control visibility, which is affected by position relative to the terrain and vegetation. (And by leaf colour and fog I guess.) So, to answer Dean's question:
- high enough so that a tall person doesn't have to lean over too much to punch. (It's uncomfortable and more effort while running; I prefer not to stop. That said, of course one can deal. Dean seemed to be asking for an optimum.)
- low enough that young kids can punch easily. (I'm not in favour of hanging different controls in an event different heights. Just one more thing to get screwed up.)
That leaves a pretty narrow band, maybe about 75-85cm high.
Someone tell me if I'm wrong. This is all off the top of my head (though I have been annoyed at particularly low stands sometimes, and have had to lift a toddler so he could go beep-beep). As a disclaimer, I have to admit that I was responsible for an infamous top-of-boulder control 15 years ago. (I thought the punch could be reached standing next to the boulder. :-o )
- high enough so that a tall person doesn't have to lean over too much to punch. (It's uncomfortable and more effort while running; I prefer not to stop. That said, of course one can deal. Dean seemed to be asking for an optimum.)
- low enough that young kids can punch easily. (I'm not in favour of hanging different controls in an event different heights. Just one more thing to get screwed up.)
That leaves a pretty narrow band, maybe about 75-85cm high.
Someone tell me if I'm wrong. This is all off the top of my head (though I have been annoyed at particularly low stands sometimes, and have had to lift a toddler so he could go beep-beep). As a disclaimer, I have to admit that I was responsible for an infamous top-of-boulder control 15 years ago. (I thought the punch could be reached standing next to the boulder. :-o )
Nov 1, 2005 12:07 AM
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Jim's quite correct about the height for punches, but it sounds as if Dean is more interested in the markers. The two are can be made rather independent with a certain amount of extra effort
When hanging controls, I often find myself seeking a compromise between hanging it low enough that small people can reach the punch, vs. hanging it high enough. When the combination of map/terrain/vegetation make the last 30m or so of navigation somewhat uncertain, I certainly "hang 'em high" and get thanks for it.
That said, I haven't untied the markers from the punches lately.
Nov 1, 2005 2:59 AM
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rm:
Sorry, I was opining on the height of controls on stands with SI units, which is what I was visualizing since I've gotten used to that. (Our non-SI events tend to just have pin flags or streamers.) With e-punch, the punch height and stand height are of course much the same, and the control height fairly related to those two. (We've had a bit of discussion about how high those stands should be.)
With pin punches, the control height and punch height can indeed be a bit different (but not too different I'd think, without causing searching for the pin punch...not more than 30 cm probably).
Hanging a marker higher can make it more visible, though often locating it horizontally is just as effective. But I think that the need to hang a flag higher should be thought of as a possible sign that the control site is not good. (If it can't be found consistently using the map, then it's funky, and finding another site is the optimal solution.) Control height can often make a bad control OK, but usually not good. As a writer on the other thread mentioned, seeing flags from 300m takes a lot away, and penalizes those who wasted time navigating. (And it might be visible from 300m in one direction, but only 50m or 20m another.)
With pin punches, the control height and punch height can indeed be a bit different (but not too different I'd think, without causing searching for the pin punch...not more than 30 cm probably).
Hanging a marker higher can make it more visible, though often locating it horizontally is just as effective. But I think that the need to hang a flag higher should be thought of as a possible sign that the control site is not good. (If it can't be found consistently using the map, then it's funky, and finding another site is the optimal solution.) Control height can often make a bad control OK, but usually not good. As a writer on the other thread mentioned, seeing flags from 300m takes a lot away, and penalizes those who wasted time navigating. (And it might be visible from 300m in one direction, but only 50m or 20m another.)
Nov 2, 2005 5:02 AM
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I'm a big believer in using stands. The familiar "feature then flag" becomes "feature then flag, unless the feature is shorter than the stand". The first time I realized that blindly enforcing "feature before flag" was stupid was at an A-Meet back in the 80s. The feature was a two-line seasonal marsh (a tiny blue = on the map), and Al Smith and I and about 10 other people were looking for it. When someone found it, I was shocked to see the flag lying flat on the ground tied to a stick also lying flat on the ground. There were no trees the stick could have been a part of---The setter found the stick, tied the flag to it, and laid the assembly *flat* in the marsh.
At the Flying Pig last April, I had at least 5 perfectly good ditches, ditch bends, and ditch junctions I couldn't use because a fallen tree obscured the flag from some approaches. In all cases, I was able to find an acceptable feature nearby, but I came close to chainsawing the deadfall a few times.
Despite Swampfox's compliments that OCIN "got it right", I was worried about some of the places I put controls. I knew 90+% of them were completely okay. What I was most worried about was having a string of easily visible locations, and then one in the bottom of a 10m long dry ditch, not visible until you got right to the edge and looked in. I knew it was okay, but the prior expectation was for 20-30m visibility, and *bang* here's one you can't see until you're 2m from it. (One person said it was bingo-ish, but I just thought it was a difficult leg. Once you were there it was no problem. One was Blue 3 or 4, but there were several others.)
One of my personal rules is to never put a flag within 4 feet or so of normal-sized tree trunks (unless the tree is on the map); because if you put the flag against the trunk, there are large arcs that can't see the flag. If you put it far from any trunks, it's not obscured for more than a few steps.
For big events, I try to check not only all the obvious approaches, but just a general circle around the feature from 10-20-30m, because you just never know how people are going to get there. It also helps you realize when you're not where you think you are...
At the Flying Pig last April, I had at least 5 perfectly good ditches, ditch bends, and ditch junctions I couldn't use because a fallen tree obscured the flag from some approaches. In all cases, I was able to find an acceptable feature nearby, but I came close to chainsawing the deadfall a few times.
Despite Swampfox's compliments that OCIN "got it right", I was worried about some of the places I put controls. I knew 90+% of them were completely okay. What I was most worried about was having a string of easily visible locations, and then one in the bottom of a 10m long dry ditch, not visible until you got right to the edge and looked in. I knew it was okay, but the prior expectation was for 20-30m visibility, and *bang* here's one you can't see until you're 2m from it. (One person said it was bingo-ish, but I just thought it was a difficult leg. Once you were there it was no problem. One was Blue 3 or 4, but there were several others.)
One of my personal rules is to never put a flag within 4 feet or so of normal-sized tree trunks (unless the tree is on the map); because if you put the flag against the trunk, there are large arcs that can't see the flag. If you put it far from any trunks, it's not obscured for more than a few steps.
For big events, I try to check not only all the obvious approaches, but just a general circle around the feature from 10-20-30m, because you just never know how people are going to get there. It also helps you realize when you're not where you think you are...
Nov 2, 2005 5:08 AM
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There's no way that ditch was 10m long. It was four or five dots. I don't remember.
This discussion thread is closed.