Discussion: GPS Based Orienteering Training
in: Orienteering; General
Jan 27, 2020 2:48 AM
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Hi,
I've been using an app called GPS Orienteering for over a year now - basically it allows running a course, while having a phone on you, without having to set out control points. This app is using the integrated GPS in the smartphone to decide if you have reached a control point and gives you a vocal/vibration indication when you get to the control. Unfortunately, I'm using an old Android phone that is not even on a network. My main phone is an iPhone and I'd love to be using it for this purpose.
A few questions:
1) GPS Orienteering is only available for Android phones. Is anyone aware of an app with the same functionality for iOS (iPhone)?
2) Any other apps that you are aware of that have similar functionality? I'm talking Android apps as well...for people that have experience with multiple apps, your comparison notes are welcome.
3) Any phones that are better than others in terms of GPS accuracy? this might be a broad question however I'd appreciate your insights
4) From your experience - is being on a network improves accuracy with these apps? most phones nowadays are using the cellular network to improve accuracy however I could not figure out if this app actually uses this data or relies only on the GPS component of the phone.
Thanks!
I've been using an app called GPS Orienteering for over a year now - basically it allows running a course, while having a phone on you, without having to set out control points. This app is using the integrated GPS in the smartphone to decide if you have reached a control point and gives you a vocal/vibration indication when you get to the control. Unfortunately, I'm using an old Android phone that is not even on a network. My main phone is an iPhone and I'd love to be using it for this purpose.
A few questions:
1) GPS Orienteering is only available for Android phones. Is anyone aware of an app with the same functionality for iOS (iPhone)?
2) Any other apps that you are aware of that have similar functionality? I'm talking Android apps as well...for people that have experience with multiple apps, your comparison notes are welcome.
3) Any phones that are better than others in terms of GPS accuracy? this might be a broad question however I'd appreciate your insights
4) From your experience - is being on a network improves accuracy with these apps? most phones nowadays are using the cellular network to improve accuracy however I could not figure out if this app actually uses this data or relies only on the GPS component of the phone.
Thanks!
Jan 27, 2020 3:36 AM
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MapRun is a similar app that I know is used a fair bit in Australia. Word is it's better (more accurate) on iPhone than Android but I know it works on both (I have Android).
Don't know about being on a network and whether that improves accuracy. The inbuilt GPS should tell you whether or not you're in the right place, provided you've downloaded the relevant map before you are off the network!
Don't know about being on a network and whether that improves accuracy. The inbuilt GPS should tell you whether or not you're in the right place, provided you've downloaded the relevant map before you are off the network!
Jan 27, 2020 9:23 PM
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We're currently testing UsynligO (InvisibleO) which works on both platforms.
There is also a Garmin app that works on many ForeRunner models, no cell phone needed.
There is also a Garmin app that works on many ForeRunner models, no cell phone needed.
Jan 28, 2020 12:56 AM
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I like the idea of map reading to tell us when we are and are not in the correct spot. All those other methods seem mind-weakening, do they not?
Jan 28, 2020 1:00 AM
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Does the control flag marking the correct spot also count as mind-weakening? That's essentially the same.
Jan 28, 2020 1:45 AM
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http://www.iorienteering.com/ Haven't tried it yet.
IOF's website on O-related software/apps: https://orienteering.sport/iof/it/list-of-software...
IOF's website on O-related software/apps: https://orienteering.sport/iof/it/list-of-software...
Jan 28, 2020 5:02 AM
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Thanks for the comments guys!
I looked into the options in this thread:
MapRun - has the functionality that I'm looking for however requires .KMZ files and not just PDF/JPEG files that can be manually aligned to the ground. I contacted the developer and he sent me some instructions however this will probably require some time to set up. Worth looking into though.
UsynligO - According to the app's description it is exactly what I'm looking for however I could not find an option to upload my own map. All the maps in the database are in Norway.
IOrienteering - This app uses physical QR codes so technically you sill need to set physical controls which kinda misses the point.
Orienteering Companion - an app that I found on Apple's app store - needs .KMZ files as well. As mentioned, not a straight forward task.
Any other ideas for apps or new insights?
I looked into the options in this thread:
MapRun - has the functionality that I'm looking for however requires .KMZ files and not just PDF/JPEG files that can be manually aligned to the ground. I contacted the developer and he sent me some instructions however this will probably require some time to set up. Worth looking into though.
UsynligO - According to the app's description it is exactly what I'm looking for however I could not find an option to upload my own map. All the maps in the database are in Norway.
IOrienteering - This app uses physical QR codes so technically you sill need to set physical controls which kinda misses the point.
Orienteering Companion - an app that I found on Apple's app store - needs .KMZ files as well. As mentioned, not a straight forward task.
Any other ideas for apps or new insights?
Jan 28, 2020 11:47 AM
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For UsynligO did you look at the Upload Event page? Looks like you just need the course XML and then PDFs from, e.g., Purple Pen.
Jan 28, 2020 9:28 PM
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This was a news item on woo:
http://omaps.worldofo.com/virtualpunch/?t=about
http://omaps.worldofo.com/virtualpunch/?t=about
Jan 28, 2020 11:55 PM
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fne:
MapRun uses maps in KMZ format – a common geo-ref’d image format readily viewable in Google Earth etc.
These are typically exported from OCAD or created from exports from www.oomap.co.uk (with a tool that auto-creates the KMZ file).
The map is only used for three purposes:
- so you can run without a paper map (although for normal club events, paper maps are normally provided)
- to display your track on the orienteering map on your phone,
- as the background map in the RouteGadget display of runners tracks in the results of an event.
Displaying your position and track is disabled during normal events, but can be switched on if you are doing mapping work,
or checking out control sites, so that you can see your position on the orienteering map as you go.
The latest version of MapRun (MapRunF), allows creation of events WITHOUT needing a map:
- you can set a quick personal course on your phone by dropping pins on the Google map, or
- anyone can upload an event (with or without a map) using the “Check Sites” feature. This gives you a 6-digit code to access the event.
See: http://maprunners.weebly.com/maprunf.html
These are typically exported from OCAD or created from exports from www.oomap.co.uk (with a tool that auto-creates the KMZ file).
The map is only used for three purposes:
- so you can run without a paper map (although for normal club events, paper maps are normally provided)
- to display your track on the orienteering map on your phone,
- as the background map in the RouteGadget display of runners tracks in the results of an event.
Displaying your position and track is disabled during normal events, but can be switched on if you are doing mapping work,
or checking out control sites, so that you can see your position on the orienteering map as you go.
The latest version of MapRun (MapRunF), allows creation of events WITHOUT needing a map:
- you can set a quick personal course on your phone by dropping pins on the Google map, or
- anyone can upload an event (with or without a map) using the “Check Sites” feature. This gives you a 6-digit code to access the event.
See: http://maprunners.weebly.com/maprunf.html
Jan 29, 2020 2:11 AM
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Thanks, Terje! Looking forward to a release, so I can give it a spin. Cool!
Jan 29, 2020 5:16 AM
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My two cents on pre-aligned maps in apps:
I tried using a world file (.JGW) and .KMZ files with MapRun (on an iPhone), GPS Orienteering (on an Android) and Orienteering Companion (on an iPhone).
For some reason there are some inherited offsets in all of them on the two devices that I used. It might be related to my device, to the device that was used to record these values in these files in the first place or both. I personally believe that it is a combination of these factors + the fact that every GPS chip might record slightly different values but the bottom line is that every device needs to be calibrated differently to compensate for these errors. I'm sure that these files can be tweaked however that is a manual trial and error process that might be time consuming.
One solution that worked for me - GPS Orienteering allows the user to record the GPS coordinates of two distinct locations on the ground and pinpoint them on the orienteering map that is loaded in the app. By using some internal calculations, the app can compensate for any skews and sync the map to the ground. In my opinion this compensates for any inherited offsets that a pre-aligned map or world/.KMZ files may have.
I tried using a world file (.JGW) and .KMZ files with MapRun (on an iPhone), GPS Orienteering (on an Android) and Orienteering Companion (on an iPhone).
For some reason there are some inherited offsets in all of them on the two devices that I used. It might be related to my device, to the device that was used to record these values in these files in the first place or both. I personally believe that it is a combination of these factors + the fact that every GPS chip might record slightly different values but the bottom line is that every device needs to be calibrated differently to compensate for these errors. I'm sure that these files can be tweaked however that is a manual trial and error process that might be time consuming.
One solution that worked for me - GPS Orienteering allows the user to record the GPS coordinates of two distinct locations on the ground and pinpoint them on the orienteering map that is loaded in the app. By using some internal calculations, the app can compensate for any skews and sync the map to the ground. In my opinion this compensates for any inherited offsets that a pre-aligned map or world/.KMZ files may have.
Jan 29, 2020 7:44 AM
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fne:
Just to add to the conversation - I suggest it’s worth thinking about the specific separate functions of the controls and maps.
At the core of GPS-based orienteering is the use of the GPS in the device to match locations in the list of controls represented as geo-coordinates. (typically Lat/Lng). It’s good to keep the required approach distance to a control to the minimum that can be practically achieved, and so getting the controls at accurate Lats/Lngs is critical. I suggest a good way to do this is to drop pins on features that can be identified in satellite imagery. Everything has inherent errors, but this works pretty well in practice. LiDAR can be good if you have it. Determining control sites using an Orienteering Map as the background is too inaccurate… move the control 1mm on a 1:10000 map and it’s moved 10m on the ground. Also, the rules of orienteering mapping mean that sometimes features are deliberately moved from their “correct” Lat/Lng to achieve separation between symbols etc.
How accurate the Orienteering Map is in a GPS-based Orienteering App, doesn’t affect the reliability of punching virtual controls. So, the map accuracy question is one of what purpose is being achieved by having the map in the App. … to replace the paper map (probably not), to display tracks in results, live tracking, etc.
One workflow that works pretty well for routine Club Street-O type events using GPS-based orienteering is:
- Setup the map – either as an export from oomap.co.uk (converted to KMZ) or OCAD export in KMZ
- Have the setter drop pins on features in Google Earth (GE). The Orienteering Map (KMZ) can be used as an overlay in GE, but ultimately the controls should be accurately placed on features identifiable in the satellite imagery (producing a KML file). GE is free and most people can get the hang of it, so setting can easily be disseminated to a larger group.
- When publishing the event, use a system that auto-generates the PurplePen file for printing. This is important to be sure that the controls in the App are the same as the ones on paper. (Having two independent versions of the event ultimately leads to problems.)
GPS accuracy is getting even better, especially where devices use multiple satellite systems. This is partly being driven by the needs of self-driving cars, auto-delivery via drones etc… so the future looks interesting!
At the core of GPS-based orienteering is the use of the GPS in the device to match locations in the list of controls represented as geo-coordinates. (typically Lat/Lng). It’s good to keep the required approach distance to a control to the minimum that can be practically achieved, and so getting the controls at accurate Lats/Lngs is critical. I suggest a good way to do this is to drop pins on features that can be identified in satellite imagery. Everything has inherent errors, but this works pretty well in practice. LiDAR can be good if you have it. Determining control sites using an Orienteering Map as the background is too inaccurate… move the control 1mm on a 1:10000 map and it’s moved 10m on the ground. Also, the rules of orienteering mapping mean that sometimes features are deliberately moved from their “correct” Lat/Lng to achieve separation between symbols etc.
How accurate the Orienteering Map is in a GPS-based Orienteering App, doesn’t affect the reliability of punching virtual controls. So, the map accuracy question is one of what purpose is being achieved by having the map in the App. … to replace the paper map (probably not), to display tracks in results, live tracking, etc.
One workflow that works pretty well for routine Club Street-O type events using GPS-based orienteering is:
- Setup the map – either as an export from oomap.co.uk (converted to KMZ) or OCAD export in KMZ
- Have the setter drop pins on features in Google Earth (GE). The Orienteering Map (KMZ) can be used as an overlay in GE, but ultimately the controls should be accurately placed on features identifiable in the satellite imagery (producing a KML file). GE is free and most people can get the hang of it, so setting can easily be disseminated to a larger group.
- When publishing the event, use a system that auto-generates the PurplePen file for printing. This is important to be sure that the controls in the App are the same as the ones on paper. (Having two independent versions of the event ultimately leads to problems.)
GPS accuracy is getting even better, especially where devices use multiple satellite systems. This is partly being driven by the needs of self-driving cars, auto-delivery via drones etc… so the future looks interesting!
May 4, 2020 9:20 PM
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fne:
Producing a PurplePen file is part of what the MapRun Administrator System does when publishing the event to the server. It's not available at this stage for personal events on your phone, but MapRun will probably head in that direction.
May 4, 2020 9:35 PM
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Recently on the scene is O-Range - an orienteering app for Garmin watches. Takes XML or GPX from PurplePen or other course setting software. https://www.storler.no/orange/index.php
May 6, 2020 7:40 PM
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I noticed that these apps are good, and getting better.
I ran past a control en route to the next control because it was my route choice but unfortunately on passing the control my phone announced it and then later in the course when it was time for that control it didn’t announce because I’d already visited it albeit in passing (not in the correct order).
I ran past a control en route to the next control because it was my route choice but unfortunately on passing the control my phone announced it and then later in the course when it was time for that control it didn’t announce because I’d already visited it albeit in passing (not in the correct order).
May 6, 2020 10:16 PM
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@Brian What app was that. I thought MapRun didn't allow that to happen
May 7, 2020 3:59 AM
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Depends on the app and again there are various ways the planner can set up a course. I tested a MapRun version of a short urban course with lots of crossovers today, there were several spurious beeps but all beeped when they were supposed to. Results shows the correct controls in order, and the extra ones at the end. Splits look plausible.
May 11, 2020 2:09 PM
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Many of you are familiar with triathlons. Could these loner orienteering events using these softwares mentioned be adapted for a solo triathlon or duathlon event?
I'm calling them triath-alone/ duath-alone.
Here are the draft conditions for the first event, a duath-alone - no course markings except for a ribbon for the Start/Finish
Simple square run in a quiet office campus for the beginning and ending runs
Out and back bike on open road for the bike portion.
I had been thinking of having giving them printed and/or e-mailing out course maps and the participants upload their tracks to strava or Garmin and then to a Facebook page. Does UsynligO or maprunner create a better product?
I'm calling them triath-alone/ duath-alone.
Here are the draft conditions for the first event, a duath-alone - no course markings except for a ribbon for the Start/Finish
Simple square run in a quiet office campus for the beginning and ending runs
Out and back bike on open road for the bike portion.
I had been thinking of having giving them printed and/or e-mailing out course maps and the participants upload their tracks to strava or Garmin and then to a Facebook page. Does UsynligO or maprunner create a better product?
May 12, 2020 7:15 AM
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If you and I want to have a contest Gord we can agree on a course and compare notes afterwards. No system is needed except for a way of talking to each other. Neither is a system needed for training, just a map with circles on it. Markers (or GPS beeps) are not essential. And we can find a way to time-splice.
May 22, 2020 3:54 PM
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Has anyone found a way to update an UsynligO event after it is first published? Thinking about updates like e.g. adding an additional course or swapping in a new pdf file for a course map. The latter after running a course and updating the control descriptions or other minor updates.
The only option I can find is to delete the original event and add an entire new one. But that will presumably erase existing results.
The only option I can find is to delete the original event and add an entire new one. But that will presumably erase existing results.
May 22, 2020 7:21 PM
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I've only deleted and re-uploaded, which does erase the existing results.
I'd suggest contacting the developer. There are a lot of features that could be added for event organizers and this is a good one.
I'd suggest contacting the developer. There are a lot of features that could be added for event organizers and this is a good one.
May 22, 2020 9:53 PM
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Speaking of which, the only options I've found for that are a facebook page, which would probably work if I had an acct there, and a phone #, which I'm not sure if he really wants people to use for this purpose. Have I overlooked an email addr somewhere? Does it work to txt a Norwegian phone from the US?
May 24, 2020 6:43 PM
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Fossil had mentioned he doesn't have a Facebook account.
And it's understandable that some people may not want to have a Facebook account. For example, when you install a Facebook app such as Messenger or Instagram, it wants to upload all your phone contacts now and into the future. I believe that in more recent times, in response to the uproar over past Facebook misuses and breaches with this personal data, that the uploading of your contacts has been made opt-in rather than default, and that the things which Facebook can use your contact info for have been limited, but I can totally understand why some still may not trust Facebook enough to sign up.
And it's understandable that some people may not want to have a Facebook account. For example, when you install a Facebook app such as Messenger or Instagram, it wants to upload all your phone contacts now and into the future. I believe that in more recent times, in response to the uproar over past Facebook misuses and breaches with this personal data, that the uploading of your contacts has been made opt-in rather than default, and that the things which Facebook can use your contact info for have been limited, but I can totally understand why some still may not trust Facebook enough to sign up.
Jun 15, 2020 2:26 AM
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Quick question - in terms of increasing gps accuracy for these apps - I was looking at a Garmin Glo 2 - its mentioned in the notes for MapRunf the new version of MapRun. Is this the best or are there better options (ie more accurate)?
Jun 15, 2020 3:01 AM
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Also I see no one has mentioned ocompanion - is it not as good as the other apps listed above?
Jun 15, 2020 11:10 AM
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jeremycolgan, Check the MapRunF forum page for "Garmin Glo2 with iPhone- information". I have two postings in the thread about my recent experience with the Glo 2. Couple of things to know with the iPhone but so far - really happy, especially for control location validation work. The info on the MapRunF page is primarily related to Android phones and from my research, you have more flexibility with an Android. Also, Android can take advantage of the Glo's 10 points/sec while, with the iPhone you get 3-4 data points/sec (still far more reactive than the 1/sec of the iPhone (or a watch)).
Jun 16, 2020 1:43 PM
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Im curious if anyone who knows this stuff would be prepared to a little virtual teaching on zoom? Say this coming Sunday? I have so many questions on how to create a map that can be used in these apps. Is anyone on this thread good enough to do that and then the rest of us could jump on and watch a screen share? I'm going to vote for 9pm EST but can do earlier if there are folks in other time zones.
Jun 16, 2020 2:47 PM
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Checkout britishorienteering.org.uk/webinars. They have recordings of sessions on UsynlingO and MapRun
This discussion thread is closed.