Discussion: Class/Course Change?

I was going through the 2007 EOY USOF rankings data as I started prepping the 2007 data for 2008. That made me think about my new class (F50+) on the same course (Green).

So, who else out there is in a new class in 2008?
If your new class bumps you to a different course, do you plan to run the new course?

I'll turn 45 this year, but I intend to run primarily Blue.

When my competition was in their early 50's they persistantly ran Red...as tho being seen on the M50+ Green course was unthinkable. So, I too began to run Red, just to be able to join in discussions during the inevitable critiques in the car on the way home.

But now over 65, in my second year on Brown, I see very few of those same guys running Green; everyone seems to be focused on competing competently on Brown now. I myself couldn't be happier.

It is interesting to reflect on the reasons for this mellowing...

Well because i have a December birthday meaning that i'll be 17 at the end of 2008 means i get the joy of moving up to f-18 having only just turned 16. So that means i have to run Brown this year. however last year i started running F-20 (green) so i could try and see where i would rank and my chances of going to JWOC. So my plan is to run F-20 this year again.

It is interesting to reflect on the reasons for this mellowing...

ketchup?

I'm F55 this year but plan to run both Green (F50) and Brown, depending on the meet.

I have always wondered why orienteers feel that a shorter course is somehow inferior to a longer one. Track runners would never rate the 1500m as an inferior event to the 5000m. The shorter courses emphasize quicker decision making and faster map reading. As an old miler/half miler I have always looked forward to those milestone years when my age group moves to a shorter course and have never considered it moving down.

Putting the cart before the horse, I run what fits the training schedule. I did do some counting for the courses in this part of Australia, and soon realised that for most age classes between 35 and 55 if you wanted to race against the better orienteers in your age class, you wouldn't choose to run your age-allocated course. Over 55 pretty much everyone stuck to the age-allocated course.
It isn't the ketchup. We use sauce.

ketchup?

Perhaps. But examining Valerie's 2007 Official Rankings we see the "run down" thinking affects many more Green orienteers than Brown.

Number Ranked on M45+ Red for 2007:
- aged 50-54 -- 8
- aged 55-59 -- 2
- aged 60-64 -- 1......Total 11 men

Number Ranked on M60+ Green for 2007:
- aged 65 and above -- 1 .....Total 1 man (Rich Parker)

A longer course means more orienteering for the same cost. Blue for me most of the time.

I was more than happy to start running Green at A-meets when I turned 50 last year. The main reason being that, at my age, I find I can no longer run a Red course at the sort of speed at which I think orienteering ought to be done. I can still run strongly through a 50-60 minute Green course, but a 90-100 minute Red course is becoming more of a Goat-like shuffle for me than an exercise in high-speed navigation.

Even at our local BAOC events I stopped running Blue regularly a couple of years ago, for the same reason. But then again, I have always been much more physically suited for a 5K run than a marathon. I suspect that makes me atypical among the Attackpoint crowd.

A longer course means more orienteering for the same cost. Blue for me most of the time.

Well 29 other orienteers aged 35 and above agree with you. That means 35% of all ranked Blue runners are interlopers from older age groups:

Number Ranked on M-21+ Blue for 2007:
- aged 35-39 -- 8
- aged 40-44 -- 12
- aged 45-49 -- 9
- aged 50 and above -- 1 .....Total 30 men.

Thanks, Clark. I was hoping someone would have fun if I added the ages. :)

s to Allison comment about a December b-day and having to move up before you have really gotten use to your actual age, Believe me Allison there are 2 dec b-days in our family and one Nov so we know how you feel. Denny's b-day is two days before the end of the year, so the other year when he turned 49 he had two days to enjoy before he had to move to M-50 on Jan 1. My b-day is also in Dec and I got an age class change with 2008 to F-55 which means that if I get my butt in gear and get back to serious walking and exercising I can actually compete in my age class of brown this year. Except for the one year that F-50 was brown I have never been able to compete in my age class, so I'm looking forward to being in my age class finally. Also Allison, Ryan was like you his b-day is in Nov and he hated those years when he had to move up almost a year before he was actually that age. Just keep of the good work and remember that you are not alone with those end of year birthdays. There a number of us for sure.

A longer course means more orienteering for the same cost.

Depends on what you consider to be cost. For older guys, the cost of running blue is not insignificant.

Ketchup has natural mellowing agents.

I think the course setting on blue is often the best. There are more degrees of freedom in terms of visiting faraway/interesting areas of the park, and long legs. Moreover, I think some coursesetters focus on blue first when doing the advanced courses.

Some brown courses suffer because of the climb limitations, such that some course setters hardly differentiate them from orange as far as difficulty. On the other hand I have seen some nicely designed browns; but generally it's easier to design more technical legs on green.

I believe Randy's point is unfortunately very accurate, not that it should be. I preach that ususally the Brown terrain/ routing should be selected first, in conjunction with a solid W/Y routing. This combination should usually dictate the Start (parking & Finish usually a given). The longer courses have enough length and flexibility to overcome a less-than-ideal Start. Brown and Green don't, but they are equally deserving of design attention, if not more deserving, when you include climb, safety, and eyesight considerations.

I didn't have time to comment about the US Champ courses, but I thought Day 1 was a striking illustation of this point. Blue and Red were fantastic, but almost to a course, each advanced course was inferior as they got shorter. Part of this was a function of the shorter courses not having enough length to get into the better terrain, and the Start(s) was reasonable, but I thought there were many instrances where Brown/ Green legs would have benefitted from more attention, primarily related to the bingo aspect.

Brown and Green don't, but they are equally deserving of design attention, if not more deserving, when you include climb, safety, and eyesight considerations.

Very well said. I would add to that list the orienteering experience of the competitors. Certainly some are first time Brown and Green runners, but many or most are very experienced, and won't be satisfied with a mediocre course.

Something I've been thinking about lately (and I'm not sure I've thought it through enough, but here it goes...) is the idea that the shorter courses on a classic or IOF Long course are not simply shortened blue or red courses. Certainly some of the legs should be compatible, but I'm leaning toward the idea that the shorter classic courses should require more (or perhaps more frequent) navigational challenges. The way I think about this is that in the continuum of legs you're likely to see between a 16km, 16 control IOF Long and a 5km, 23 control IOF Middle, Blue should be more like the former, and Brown should be more like the latter. The problem with saying Brown should be more Middle-like is that Middles seem to minimize route choice legs.

I don't know. It's just a thought I had after hearing people critique courses I've set. One comment was about having Brown flags too visible. It was probably okay to have it visible from 200m away for Blue, but for that same flag on a Brown, that 200m is 5% of the course that is trivial navigation.

Maybe another way to say it is that on a Blue, it's okay to give away the flag in favor of the leg---The navigation on the leg is more important than tucking the flag away. On Brown, though, the course is so much shorter that "feature-then-flag" becomes a more equal factor in the compromise. Using the wasted course length idea: Giving away 8 or 10 flags from 30-50m away is 250-500m wasted. That might be 10 or 20% of the whole course. (Realize too that I tend to set on maps that are spur-and-gully, that no one would call "feature-rich".)

My personal goal for Brown (which I break regularly) is to include one good long leg. What's the rule-of-thumb?: "No leg longer than 1/3 of the total course"? That means you're limited to about a 1km leg, which is huge on a 3km course. That can severely constrain the other legs, and sometimes you just have to shorten the long leg.

Back on topic a bit, I don't run Blue to get "more for my money." While a longer course does play to my particular strenghts, I'll take an excellent middle course over a mediocre long course any day. I run Blue simply because that's where the best competition is and I think you improve the most against the strongest competition you can hang with. Some might argue I don't really hang with the top Blue runners, but I can usually find a few legs where I'm close and by replaying those legs, I can visualize what I want every leg to be like.

In contrast, when running M45, I am battling it out for a top place, so I have to be very clean and fast. In M21, I'm typically 2/3 of the way down the list or so, and a little better or worse doesn't make that much of a difference. But I'm in this for the recreational aspects.

If you get to the correct side of the feature, that flag had better be very visible. Please don't hide any flags on any course.

The only thing that I do differently on a brown course than the other courses is to lower the physicality.

I have tried running some blue courses, but found that I just ran slow and crappy. For me, it is better to run faster on red, but just as lousy.