Discussion: chatting during the meet?

i've brought this up before in another venue, but: how should an orienteer deal with the guy/girls who yell things like: "wrong way!", "i't's over here!", "i found it!" (sometimes to their partners, sometimes directly to me)?

it bugs me no end. i'm out there trying to beat the clock, & i have people helping/confusing me with their comments.

i've had to say, "you're not supposed to give help", & given the lip + finger shhhh sign.

any input here?

People who do that are probably not on your course, so just ignore them.

Let it go. Some people are just looking for fun and aren't convinced to take it seriously. In my case, golf is an example.

mosquito: The fact that you let these beginner's comments bug you means you may need to change the approach to your O. There are a multitude of distractions at an event. Try training your mind to not let them affect your course execution.

What about comments that aren't related to the controls or the map? Is it okay to chat on course?

I've heard of one training exercise to help with concentration that you do with a partner. One person navigates while the other tries to distract them in any way possible (without touching them). I haven't tried it but it sounds fun (and useful).

I consider it a general courtsey not to speak to people on their courses, I don't even say hi to my parents if I see them in the woods. Even though part of orienteering is dealing with distractions, I would never want to be the reason for breaking someone's concentration. My only exceptions are when someone speaks to me first, when someone falls or otherwise potentially injures themself, and on occassions when I have been with a group of orienteers that cannot find a control (Hickory Run this past Nov. with Angelica, Vadim, and Bernard comes to mind.)

I still like to give (and recieve) some friendly encouragement when I see friends on the course. Situations vary depending on intensity, technical difficulty, how serious things are. But in general, I'd never trade those rare moments of passing a friend in the woods and wiggling my fingers to give the secret ORCA salute!

I sometimes have people try to stop me for help. I typically just barely have enough time to shout "Sorry, good luck." before I've run out of range. (It's easy to blow people off if you're running). But if I see those people after the race, I still like to apologize and explain why I didn't stop. They always understand, and it's nice to see if they figured out their problem.

If chatting and collusion amongst competitors bothers you then you will want to stay away from the Swedish 5-day event - the O'Ringen.
Friends and strangers openly give and seek help in the forest. After all the vast majority of the 20,000 participants are there for the exercise, the partying or to be with family members. On a very much smaller scale so are we here in North America.
Over the years I have had much less of an issue with the shouts in the woods than with the quiet but blatant tagging along that has occurred at world championships.

I remember one lost teenager I paused to help up at an A-meet at Sand Dunes, near St Cloud, Minnesota...very detailed terrain. A 30-second lapse in concentration, and I lost track of which depression I had just exited. It took over 2 hours to relocate, including trying unsuccessfully to find the Start.

Since then, I don't speak to or acknowledge anyone during competition.

Now, granted I look lost usually anyway but I'm at the back of the pack with other low O skilled persons also. I've never had anyone ask for help and I wouldn't give it. I would say "Sorry, I'm not allowed". I don't know how to deal with someone yelling "It's here!" If that helps me find a control I otherwise would have spent more time on, that's cheating.

I recall an A meet about 10 years ago where someone who I assumed was on my course wanted to know where we were and I told her "Sorry, can't help" (and later explained why). She was a fairly new orienteer but didn't look too distressed, just mislocated. (Hi, Lyn! :-) )

I ignore those who say "It's here!" (it may not be mine; I do my best to not be distracted). Shut them up by not reacting to them.

The ones I dislike are the ones (often Europeans) who try to take your map (when you're punching at a control) and they want to know which one to get relocated. I keep a firm grip on my map. (This happened to me once, and to Glen at least once.)

It is matter of your own confidence and navigation skills during orienteering course. More confidence you have in your own skills and better navigation skills you have then less likely you will give in into any kind of distractions.

Ideally you should have route planned from flag to flag and you should be executing your route plan. Nobody knows exactly your route plan but you. If you can get distracted by someone telling you "wrong way" then my best guess is that you are not confident enough in your ability to navigate through the course.

During mass start races or in races when I get caught or I catch someone and I run few legs with the group sometimes I intentionally find a future leg where I would execute different route plan then other runners to get advantage. And if I get them even to even think that I am going wrong way then I have succeeded to distract them.

When my navigation skills are up to the par then someone shouting "Over here" or something similar does not bother me at all since I know where flag is going to be located long before I see actual flag.

At West Point meet 3 years ago I did get distracted by someone telling "over here!!!" and got me to check in into wrong control which was not even close to control I was going to. After race when I analyzed that particular mistake I could not believe how stupid that mistake was since control was not even within 200 yards of control I was going to. Would I be better without that particular distraction? Maybe for 2-3 minutes however it would mean that I would not be second to last but maybe third from the bottom of the list at best. Overall my navigation strugled big time time that particular weekend and that was bottom line why I was at the bottom of the list, not because someone "tricked" me into wrong control.

Hmm ppl pointing out controls is not something i take notice of. If i know where i am i will only pay attention to ppl in the area i expect the control to be.
At o riningin this year this was tested at certain points where multiple courses crossed and up to 100 or more ppl were visible, here it was easy o get distracted so you had to focus.
I only speak to ppl if we are hunting for a control together or trying to relocate.

Shoot'em with the pistol your packin'. The meet director at the IS Champs will surely look the other way if there should be some minor flesh wounds.

I like trying to body tackle people I see orienteering in the woods. Otherwise the whole endeavor seems sissified, like touch football.

Great stuff, barb.

Most of my competitors are old gray-haired M65+ guys...I'm sure we'd all be happy to have you tackle us at any time, as we studiously trot through the forest, thumbing our maps.

Orienteering is starting to sound like a televisable sport.

I wanted to add that if you do speak, there are ways to be smart. For example: don't shout someone's name from behind and cause them to look back. Fast technical bits are typically off limits too. If someone is scanning the terrain or map, staring right past you, then leave them be.

But many encounters occur during "navigation downtime" (On trails, roads, and wide open hillside slogs). If they look relaxed and make eye contact, then a passing "hello" or "good job" is typically fine. A nod or small wave is completely safe.

I never ask for help and don't give tips unless there are extenuating circumstances. If you hear me vocalize in the woods, that doesn't mean I'm talking to you. It helps me focus to talk to myself.

First there was Tickle Me Elmo, now there's Tackle Me Clark.

I don't ask for help. I must confess to have given help on a couple occasions to kids who appear to be emotionally breaking down, but I'm ambivalent about it, because it's not fair. The hypothesis behind helping in such situations is that the person being helped is going to finish last--just by a smaller margin and less traumatized--but that may not really be the outcome.

Sometimes I say hi when I see friends on the course, and sometimes I don't, depending on my mood and the level of effort I'm applying to the navigation. Occasionally, if it seems appropriate (like when someone talks to me), I say a few more words--for example about how my run is going or general comments on the terrain or map. If I'm having a good run, then it doesn't break my focus. It doesn't occur to me that I could be messing up someone's race simply by saying hi. If I found out that someone was distracted by me saying hi and made a mistake, then I would be sorry, but dealing with distractions is part of the game, so I wouldn't feel like it was my responsibility.

Yes, I agree with and practice blegg's guidelines about when to acknowledge or talk and when not to.

I like ebone's hypothesis of helping the last-place kid finish less traumatized (and finish last by a smaller margin). If the difference is between the youngster finishing last or DNFing, the difference could be crucial to the youngster showing up at another O event.

However, is this hypothesis relevant to brand-new adult orienteers?

Anyone consider that the "helpers" may be lying? On an occasion or two I've been near someone who's trying to find the control I've found, and not to give away the location, I exit the control in a way that looks like I've come from somewhere else, or else I nonchalantly punch the card, wander off a bit, then sprint to a spot on my next like like I've found the control I just left. Nothing like sprinting to make someone think you've found the control. If they fall for it, they weren't navigating. Couldn't "over here" be another way to throw off the competitor (though shouting to distract seems unethical--my way just sneaky.)

I like trying to body tackle people I see orienteering in the woods. Otherwise the whole endeavor seems sissified, like touch football.

This woke up an old memory, and a quick look found the following note:

"Intercity Cup (August 30, 2003). Pawtuckaway SP, Nottingham, NH. Round 1 was a mass start to seed the field and then one-on-one elimination races. Ran in the Red course group (women and old guys). Mass start - 1.6km, 14:10, finished 4th behind Katarina Smith (Wil's recent bride and the class of the field), Erin, and Pavlina. Should have been behind Sandra too, but she was DQ'd for sloppy/faulty punching, perhaps due to my tackling her at control #2 (well, I actually just did one of my usual falls and she happened to be right in the line of fire...)."

I believe Suzanne was in the vicinity and I just missed taking her down too.

I found the on-course discourse amusing at O-Ringen and when in Finland, because it was pretty novel to have adults openly asking for and giving advice. I have to admit it was pretty fun at times. (No one tried to grab my map, tho.)

We have so many kids in our local meets that I often have to help clueless ones -- if they ask, or if they're crying. :-) I ask them what course they're on -- I usually will only help white and yellow. Orange or above, I generally shrug and move on. Unless there is crying. We have kids sent out on courses way beyond their level. And I haven't been orienteering long enough to forget a couple of times when I was hopelessly lost and in tears. I figure a local C meet isn't a big deal if I can teach a kid something in a minute or less.

Anyone consider that the "helpers" may be lying?

I used to worry about people getting an advantage off me and engaged in all sorts of "devious" behavior. I would particularly fret in adventure races where I felt that we had to crush the competition on the nav sections to be competitive overall. After a while I realized this was hurting me a lot more than it was hurting them. Best bet is just to run your own race.

I do say hi to my freinds on course. I can't imagine that simple gesture messing them (or me) up.

I have a couple of "hi" disasters. Said hi to a friend and watched him fall flat on his face. This summer I said hi to a club mate and crushed a stump with my knee. I was doing some very loud, distracting speaking after that one.

Here are three observations about talking in the forest from my amazing Jukola 2007 run in Finland - which began in a mass-start with probably 2,500 other runners. In particular it shows that the talk isn't always about navigation

1. Helping each other. There is a definite culture (among the weaker orienteers at least) of asking other people to tell you where you are. I didn't answer anyone that asked, which was generally easy enough because nobody asked in English!
2. Getting help. I did benefit once from this culture though. I was in a very detailed area with lots of rock features. My control was at the foot of a rock cliff. I saw a control but as I ran toward it I tumbled onto my ass and slid down the rock cliff to the control. It wasn't the right control! At this point I must have looked completely pathetic because one guy (of the many) at the control came over, pointed at his map, and said (in English) "we are here". Then he looked at my map and said "your's is up there" and pointed. Ouch.
3. Having a laugh in the forest. On another occasion I was running through the woods in a pack of four other runners. The guy in front of me tripped on something and went flying through the air, shouting out something in Finnish, which I imagined was a swear word. I followed in his path when all of a sudden I too went flying, tripped by some (unmapped) barbed wire. The other three guys all repeated the word the first guy had shouted, which I now understood to mean "watch out, barbed wire" and looked at me like I was a moron. As I pulled myself off the ground I said "but I don't speak Finnish" which at least got me a great big laugh.

On an occasion or two I've been near someone who's trying to find the control I've found, and not to give away the location, I exit the control in a way that looks like I've come from somewhere else...

ebuckley: ...After a while I realized this was hurting me a lot more than it was hurting them....

I am with ebuckley on this subject. More often then not when trying to disguise where control you might end up losing more time then gaining advantage. If anything you might gain advantage over orienteer you just tricked. However if it is A-meet then there are about 30 other guys running the same course and you will lose on 30 other guys that particular leg.

But being sneaky is fun! If Barb can tackle, I can sneak.

I talk to myself in the woods all the time and sometimes I even answer myself but I generally don't do this when there are others around. They might think I was a bit crazy and I wouldn't want to distract them with those thoughts. I will help any young people that asks for it or if they seem to be having trouble, I will just ask them if they are ok or if they need help. I never want to have to look for a youngster lost in the woods at an O event, I much rather help them if I can. I made the mistake once of speaking to my husband in the woods as we passed each other. He lost his concentration and I was to blame, you can guess the outcome from that little experience. With that experience, I decided that it would be best not to talk to anyone including my husband and kids unless they spoke to me first. I do remember going down a road at one A event a number of years ago and the person coming towards me was singing his heart out and having a good time, when we meet I spoke to him. I told him I should have known who it was coming towards me as he was one of the many juniors I worked with and he was always singing. Now that he is older, he is much more intent on his orienteering and I don't distract him in anyway. As I go into the woods to have a good time and not necessarily to win I have no problem with someone speaking to me but I also realize that most people don't have the same feelings as I do so I always try to past quietly unless they ask or speak to me first.

I got asked by a pretty JWOC competitor from a northern European country where she was on the at the Xmas 5 days warm up event near Dubbo. Only problem was she had a different scale map to mine. Thought I'd better get it right, luckily I actually was on my route plan and appeared to know what I was talking about! I had a good run that day!

We talk about not wanting to discourage the kid who gets lost and might not come back to the sport. But, what about the kid who gets lost, relocates instead of crying, and finishes the race... only to be beaten by a kid who got lost, asked for help, and finished faster?

The first kid may get discouraged by thinking that he/she isn't very good because he got last (out of what... the 3 kids in their category at some local meets). OR he/she may find out that the other kid just asked for help and be discouraged by knowing that he "really" did better but everybody else thinks s/he's a loser. Shouldn't we be even more worried about discouraging the first kid, who had the tenacity and map skill to find him/herself than about discouraging the second kid?

It should be pointed out that talking to competitors is actually illegal in our sport (IOF rules). And, while people might say "oh, in the kids race or the older categories it's not as competitive" I think attitude is unfair to the non-elite runners who train and race. I know a lot of people in those categories who definitely care about the competition (and some M-F-21's who are recreational). I feel really harsh writing this a bit but I don't think that I should feel bad. All I'm saying is that we shouldn't cheat.

That said, I love the people and camaraderie in orienteering. One of my favorite things is training with friends and the feeling of running through the forest in groups. I love both working together with a partner and the intensity that comes from head-to-head competition. I love the dynamics that come from a group who isn't talking but are running the same course... as people try to figure out how much to trust themselves and how much to trust the others. And, I certainly appreciate a warning about a danger like a nest of snakes that might be getting riled up (thanks Pavlina!). Saying hi can be fine, a smile, etc. At the end of the day, though, I think when competing, we should follow the rules and run our own race unless there is an injury when we must stop and help. We should encourage kids to do the same (don't worry... I'm not heartless-- I will make sure that the oft-mentioned crying child in the woods is safe and can get back to the start or finish).

Lastly, if encouraging a confused novice is really the aim (and you want to take the time), maybe it would be more helpful to use it as a teaching experience. Rather than just point and say "you're here" or "here is the control," you could stop and ask leading questions to help the child reorient (like, what do you remember passing on the way here, what do you see around you know, where you could be, etc). Then talk through the way to the next control.

Thanks for reading this far!

My favorite competition conversation was in a relay, when another competitor coming out of a dog-leg control with a terrified look on hs face handed me the stick that he was carrying and said, "Here, you're going to need this!".

So, JJ, did you need the stick?

nother competitor coming out of a dog-leg control with a terrified look on hs face handed me the stick that he was carrying and said, "Here, you're going to need this!".

That's a cliff-hanger of a post JJ! Practically a start to a Twilight Zone episode.

I remember a recent meet (don't remember if it was a relay) where several competitors had to fend off some kind of hawk that was in the area, probably with a nest. Is that the one to which J-J refers?

Nah, though I did get hassled by a hawk at Surebridge last spring (and that was very cool). What scared this Swiss guy (at the Crystal Relay in Lake George, CO) had four legs. I was elusive and didn't need the stick. Mark Dominie would remember this, I think he was the next runner behind me. If I remember correctly, Carolyn Ortegon (on a later leg) successfully defended herself with a really big rock.

Must have been an attack badger! :-)

At a water control, right? And s/he had eaten up most of the cups?

Some years ago a ten year old made his first attempt at a course for M14s. As I remember it, he showed up at the finish line about three hours after starting. "What happened?" he was asked. "I got lost. After a long time someone showed me where I was." (He was more than a kilometer off course). "What did you do then?" "I waited until he left. Then I cried a little. Then I did the course."
I think that he finished third out of three.
It was a good thing that he wasn't discouraged too much. This guy went on to win a few North American championships.

I'm very confused by Suzanne's post. Suzanne appears to be saying that yes, she will stop and help a distressed kid BUT not to do the rest of the course, only to make sure they are safe and can get back to the Start or Finish.

Huh? Doesn't the last bit involve showing them where they are? And can't they then decide to do the course anyway? Or does Suzanne swap location for a promise not to continue??

Its just not that difficult: I'll help any distressed kid that asks for help - the result on the day does not matter. We are after positive orienteering experiences and people that will come back for more. Too much emphasis is placed on Junior results anyway.

Eoin--I'm sorry if I wasn't clear. I will not leave an upset child helpless who is asking for help. I think we can ALL agree on that. Clearly it's not an issue.

However, the allegorical crying child in the woods does obscure the deeper and original issue being discussed about whether it is ok or not that it can be common in orienteering for competitors to get help (asking, taking maps, etc) and how to deal with this when you are asked.

Also, being safe is not necessarily the same as being told where you are or where the control is. It might mean being pointed to a trail (a quick solution that can help get somebody back on the right track) or talking through how to relocate (what did you last see, where did you come from, what do you see now, where might you be). This would renew a child's self-confidence that they can figure out for themselves where they are the next time rather than just giving a quick fix.

I think that unfair results (a child who didn't ask losing to a child who did) could also be a negative and discouraging orienteering experience (especially if the practice of asking is relatively common-place). Ie-- the 10-yr old mentioned above, totally fine-- he waited to ask until he really needed the help.

As for children, I've posted before that I think that the model of using 'happy and sad' faces a bit after trail intersections is a great way to help kids self-correct as a step-up from streamered courses or being shadowed. That way kids can self-correct and avoid running kilometers in the wrong direction and everyone on the course has the same advantage.

As for too much emphasis being placed on junior results... many of the juniors I've talked to LIKE being competitive. They think it's fun. Sure, enjoying being outside, finding markers, and hanging out with friends are also great reasons to orienteer:) But, these are races. We time them and publish the results. So we should encourage them to be fair.

ok- sorry for my tendency to being long-winded.

Long winded eh?

I thought someone else might have countered with some more ideas, but they must have lost interest. So its just you and me? Is this American culture vs Irish/Australian

Anyway lets put aside the original discussion for now (but for the record I think chatting on the course is no big deal; just ignore it if you want to orienteer well)

This kids thing is important I think. I'm not happy to just point lost kids towards the nearest track. If they don't know where they are that's not going to be much good to them (even if there actually is a nearby track). Much better to talk them through it (but I suspect many people mightn't want to spend that long.

Of course kids like to be competitive. However competition is meaningless at the ages we have been talking about (8-14?). Some kids mature faster than others, so no kids competition is "fair". Although kids are competitive the result is less important to them than it is to us; few will remember actual results from more than a few weeks. Kids should be happy to get a good result on the day, but shouldn't be too disappointed at a bad result. There is so much more to a day out orienteering than a time near the bottom end of the ladder. One quote from an Australian Government website "Winning at sport includes: scoreboard results, friendship, teamwork, skill development and plenty of good fun"

In an individual sport like ours there is only one name at the top - the winner; are all the rest losers: or did some of them win something that day too?

>Ie-- the 10-yr old mentioned above, totally fine-- he waited to ask until he really needed the help.

Thanks Suzanne, because I REALLY needed the help. 1km off into the deep dark woods of northern Ontario was pretty scarey. :)

aww- glad to hear it Hammer!

I think it was my comment on helping kids that spurred the Eoin-Suzanne discussion, so I'll loop back and try to add some perspective -- and hopefully not too much wind. :-)

We had more than 400 participants at our local meet yesterday, and that's not unusual. Some 90% of them were kids -- also, not unusual. And, 75% of those were on White or Yellow -- again, not unusual. None asked me for or needed help -- which in most cases should and does involve, as you both mention, a chance to reinforce an orienteering skill. It's about helping the youngster reorient his/her map and reminding them how their compass works, not about pointing to a control in the bushes.

All in all, we had more than 2,200 unique starts at NTOA orienteering event in 2007. I estimate I helped 5 kids -- one about every other meet. I would quantify that as often, as that meant half of my races were affected. But nothing I did won any kid a medal or robbed anyone else of their victory. I found that suggestion a bit irritating. The kids who are confident and competitive orienteers are too busy orienteering to beg for help. What I did do was help a weaker kid learn something that might mean s/he tries it again some time, and feels stronger doing it.

And, if I'm being honest, I might have reduced the chances of the race staff having to go out after a lost kid later. :-/

Yeah, kids who ask for help should be helped.

400 participants? Good on you NTOA! And now that the Dallas Cowboys are finished for the season perhaps that number will grow.
But seriously, I fully agree with the way you help the kids. Where did I read that if you give a man a fish you feed him for a day but teach a man to fish and you feed him for life? Seems to fit here, n'est-ce pas? And if the teaching happens in the woods so much the better.

The kids who are confident and competitive orienteers are too busy orienteering to beg for help.

I totally agree with stated. Also I would add that someone who is competitive by nature will have a pride not to ask for help. First two orienteering races I run was total disaster. In the first one I was circling around one control for hour and half and I still could not find the flag. There were people coming and going however I did not wanted to ask for help (actually I was emberrassed that I could not find something what others could). I quit that race. My second attempt went little bit better but still was far from perfect. I was still struggling around controls but I was too proud to ask for help.

Do I recall kids who asked for help to get advantage? Probably but I could care less about them. I did not have to look at the scoreboard to know when I did not do well.

Even as a kid if you have a decent navigation skills you will outrun someone who will rely on occasional adult help. You still got to stop and ask for help. It's going to take some time to get some help. I strongly doubt that there have been a youngster who would constantly win races because he/she constantly asked for help during orienteering course.

Actually I strongly doubt there is youngster that constantly asks for navigation help every time he/she races to gain competitive advantage. And if there was - sooner or later someone would notice that and would bring that to youngsters attention.

If there is youngster who constantly asks for navigation help just to get through the course - I would not be too concerned about them. At least they come and race and have fun and occasionally win North American's years after.

I didn't say that kids who ask for help shouldn't get helped! In fact, I clearly said that we should help kids if they need it.

Yet, this discussion wouldn't have started in the first place if talking in the forest was rare or about lost kids.

And, I think that the topic of lost kids obscures the more difficult conversation about helping (as opposed to friendly comraderie talking) in the woods. This clearly has happened in this post (although I guess I contributed to that as well).

I had a chance to put this thread into action this weekend when 3 kids sitting by a trail staring at their (orange level) map asked me for help. I was tempted to refuse - Hey, that's cheating! and besides, can't you see I'm runnin' a race here? - but sympathy overwhelmed my resolve.

I am enjoying reading the many comments from the XXX Billygoats. Is there a helpful-chatter etiquette that is different for goats than for other orienteers?

Definitely. Talk all you want during a goat race. When the rules say "Following is explicitly permitted", you know that it's a different kind of environment.

At an Australian Champs a few years back I was making my way to my first control. It was technical stuff but i was going OK. Suddenly I came upon a crying girl - probably a young teen. I asked her if she was OK and she said she couldn't find her control. I asked her if she wanted me to take her back to the start - she said no but wanted me to tell her where she was. Twice more I repeated my offer to take her back to the start and twice more she refuse but requested I show her where she was. I made a quick judgment of her situation and decided she obviously in her own mind wasn't in any danger. I ran off.

Sometimes I too feel like crying if I have stuffed up.
If she was that distressed she would have accepted my offer. My meeting with her cost me my concentration (or what little of it I ever have) as well as 2 minutes competition time.

She obviously had no concerns for her well being, just upset that she was losing time being "misplaced"

I was quite prepared to abandon my own race to make sure she was OK but not prepared to help her at possibly somebody elses expense.

Adults, some of whom are quite competitive, asking for help (nicely, with a smile) is very common here in Spain. A more sarcastic observer might suggest this is somehow correlated to the general acceptance of undetected cheating, but I prefer to blame a social society that rewards teamwork.

Asking for help nicely is better than grabbing the map out of your hand (or trying to) to see where you are (when you're about to punch your control). Happened to me once, to my husband once. The offenders were not US citizens.

Asking for help nicely is better than grabbing the map out of your hand (or trying to)...

I also encountered that disturbing map-grab action in my only meet involving dozens of orienteers who were neither Canadian nor US citizens. I suppose that it is an easy way to get around a language barrier.

I've had my map grabbed twice, and while I don't want to encourage anyone to do it, I feel it takes me off the hook regarding offering assistance. So while it is disturbing, it's also understandable and even polite---because as long as you're not too eager to offer your map, you're not an accessory to the crime.

Never encountered map grabbing personally, and in the 05 WOC public races (Japan), the one time I really really really needed help and the several times I encountered Russians or Japanese who really needed help we managed to get around language barriers long before resorting to any such behaviour. If I ever do have someone try to grab my map I would try to refuse to help with equal politeness.

BTW the purists will be glad to hear I didn't complete the course the day I got someone to show me where I was. Might have been a different story had I not been (ahem) several gully systems away from where I shoulda been....

I must look pretty fierce when I run as I've done two o-ringens and a few world masters and even though there were people milling around my control (and obviously not theirs) I have never had anyone attempt to grab my map.

They do ask where they are, but since it is rarely in english I just plead ignorance and state "sorry I'm an Aussie" and run off.

Once at a French 5-day I asked a local guy I was running with why he and everybody else was calling out the control numbers (I can understand French numbers) and thus helping anybody in earshot.

He suggested it was a social event and that they were all there for fun. I suggested to him that I wouldn't even assist my travelling companions because we Australians were always competitive regardless of our abilities or lack thereof. He probably thought I was an idiot.

Cultural differences?

I must be an absolute @#$^

Just remembered another event.
WMOC Lithuania I think.

It was the twentieth or so person to ask me something. I didn't know exactly what they wwere asking due to it not being in English but I got the drift. "Where am I?"

I cracked, it was a world champs after all.
"Do you understand the term F**k off"" I replied.
This cut across any language barrier we previously had.
He backed off and let me continue on my way.

I felt a little bad about this later, but not for too long.

At the 2004 Telemark champs, on the second day, I was on my way between the 6th and 7th control when I hit one of the many ski trails. I realized that there was an opportunity for a parallel error because of the way the trail turned, and stopped to look at my map. Soon after I had decided where I must be and resumed running down the trail, another (faster) runner on my course passed me.

He must have seen me standing still, looking at my map a few seconds earlier, and tried to offer some advice: "Unless you are looking for number seven, you're going the wrong way."

Unfortunately I thought he said "If you are looking for number seven you are going the wrong way", and ended up losing a bit of time before regaining my confidence. I realized even just after the race that I should have had enough faith in my own skills to not pay attention whatever the actual comment was.

However, I think this story shows that even well intended comments can have unfortunate consequences, and hence I agree with what was said previously about helping kids in distress, offering a friendly hello if eye contact can be established, and otherwise save the talk for the next Goat. :)

I heard about an interesting incident that happened at a meet this year, that struck me as being in a different league than most of the stuff being discussed here. An adult on one of the shorter courses at an A-meet came to a point on a trail that was a few contour lines above the control. Instead of going down the slope, said adult asked a passing child (who had the same control) to please bring the adult's SI card down to the control, punch, and bring it back up the slope. Which the child did, even though it meant an extra trip up the hill and back (the preferred route to the next control was the low route, not up higher on the trail).

jj - that last post was amazing. what noive!

I must say I was astounded, but the information came from a very reliable source.

I had the opposite happen...

When I competed at the Vancouver Sprint-O camp, I had some one volunteer to punch the control for me. It was down in a stream bed and I was competing on crutches...

I stubbornly declined, and then proceeded to tumble down to the flag.

Valet control punching: The latest fad at all the 4 star A meets. I can't bring myself to trust someone else with my ecard. You will never be sure where your ecard has been.

keep it in a sandwich bag - no wait! that wouldn't work after the holes have been punched..... oh, no!!!!!

Back to the thing about helping distressed kids on courses? Well I'm 15 so I wasn't a kid that long ago. When I was 12 I was at an Aus Champs Relay and for some reason - numbers i guess - the lowest age group was under 16's. Sooo I was on this scary really hard course when I was only up to moderate navigational difficulty. Obviously I wasn't going to be very competitive, I just had to try and do the course! So I blundered my way around and then at one point I got COMPLETELY lost and started to panic - Yes this did lead to crying! Eventually someone came jogging past and they showed me where I was . My point is - I know it can be annoying having to help lost kids but when you're young it's really really scary coz you don't know what to do. Therefore: You should all know that kids really appreciate being helped - you've definitely done a good deed if you've helped a kid in this situation and maybe this makes it worth your time loss.