Discussion: M60s, living forever?

At thr recent US Champs in Virginia there was much talk among the veteran Orienteers about how we seemed to be competing against the same people for as long as we could remember. (Note: for some of us this is not very long). To refresh our memories, fellow M60 Dennis Wildfogel and I did a comparison of the entries for our age group for the US Champs for 1997 and 2002 and 2007. By coincidence each of these Champ events were held near Quantico, VA. Here are some of the statistical tidbits:

In 1997 when we were all M50 there were 32 entries. 17 of the top 22 finishers in 2007 also competed in 1997.

In 2002 when we were M55 there were 23 entries. 15 of the top 22 finishers in 2007 also competed in 2002.

15 people competed in all three events over 10 years. Below is the combined crosscountry scoring for each of those three events. (Lowest score is winning.)

Peter Gagarin 3
Charlie DeWeese 11
Bob Turbyfill 19
Phil Hawkes-Teeter 22
Bob Bullions 29
Bob Huebner 30
Jim Hall 31
Dennis Wildfogel 37
Dick Neuberger 38
George Walker 43
George Minarik 45
Ed Scott 49
Tim Gilbert 56
Eric Smith 67
Steve Shannonhouse 69

I had always thought that my hope of finishing high in the US Champs depended upon the rest of you becoming either tired of the sport, injured, or losing your marbles. This doesn't seem to be happening. What gives? I guess the competition now continues into 2012. (In Virginia?)

Does this mean I will be racing against Boris for the rest of my life? Aargh.

Boris has already lost his marbles.

And the ability of some to compete well into their Golden Years is remarkable. At this year's US Champs, we had 3 M75's and 2 M80's, altho only three of them finished Saturday's Brown course. Nice going guys!

But that's nothing compared with the World Masters O Champs, where there were 10 M85's who competed and finished the 2.5km course with a winning time of 39 minutes. And there were so many M80's that they had to have three separate classes to choose from.

Of the 32 in 1997, at least 15 competed in 2007. Sounds like a half-life of about 10 years. So we're expecting:

8 to be M75 in 2017;
4 to be M85 in 2027;
2 to be M95 in 2037 in Virginaia fo course.

There's hope George - hang in there!

Now running in M65, I've observed that as I age, with each passing 5-year age group, my competitors become fewer, but more intense.

What I think happens as guys get older, is that many Back-of-the-Packers cease maintaining an active lifestyle long before they get to age 60. And the only guys still running are 1) the truly gifted competitive athletes, and 2) the few that were never particularly competitive, but orienteered for other reasons, such as a love of nature, or for the social aspects.

But all of a sudden, this second group is placing in events, for the first time in their lives. Younger athletes may scoff at our short courses and painfully slow times. But we we are still out there, in our baggy tights, trying to compete. So isn't a M75 US Champ just as valid, even tho he might have competed against only two others?

To paraphrase Woody Allen: 80% of success is just showing up...longer than anyone else.

8 to be M75 in 2017;
4 to be M85 in 2027;
2 to be M95 in 2037
and then
1 in M105 in 2047 !

1 M105 to rule them all; 1 M105 to find them
1 M105 to bring them all and in the contours bind them
In the land of Quantico, where the reentrants lie.

Inspired, but can you translate to Elvish?

I don't have access to the right font...

feet>>I sure hope so!!

Unknown. I have a sneaking suspicion Tolkien, despite been well-versed in Nordic languages, may not have thought to include words for "contour" and "reentrant" in the lexicon.

What are "baggy tights"?

Tights where the spandex has not aged as well as the wearer?

In light of the Tolkien references - maybe it should have been read as 'Baggins tights'?

As someone who read the Hobit and Lord of the Ring while yachting around the Gulf of Tonkin as a guest of king Richard, I will be joining the M-60 class next year. At national A meets I am at the back of the finishers. At local one and two day meets I may get a third or fourth by beating some 19 year olds. The reason I show up is the pure joy of just being outside, runnig the course in funny looking cloths.

The thing that gives a little variety to the present M 60 class is that there have been known to be a few (nameless) competitors who will run in a younger class because it is easier to beat that current M 55 group and M 50 group than it is to beat Peter Gagarin.
But back to the list Gagarin and Turbyfill (and I) competed in the M 21 class at the US champs- also at Quantico - in 1973. I'm not sure if he won but I'm pretty sure Bob was a little ahead of me and way ahead of Peter. (But I remember Bob pointing to Peter and telling everyone that this newcomer was going to be very good.)

Another factor to watch in the future is now that some of us M60's are lucky enough to be retired we have more time to train and more time to travel to events. We might get even better.

That's a good point Dave. It is why World Master Orienteering is so popular and can be scheduled when the young ones are in school and eurpoean factories aren't on summer shutdowns.

"more time to train and more time to travel to events. We might get even better."

Or we might just get more beat up and tired from too much of a good thing. But it sure is a nice way to go.

The thing that gives a little variety to the present M 60 class is that there have been known to be a few (nameless) competitors who will run in a younger class because it is easier to beat that current M 55 group and M 50 group than it is to beat Peter Gagarin.

True, but you're just as likely to find Peter running down and beating up on all the young ones as well. Not just M50 & M55, but often any of the Red classes or even Blue on occassion. And he's rarely far from the top of the class regardless of which one he happens to be beating up on....

But back to the list Gagarin and Turbyfill (and I) competed in the M 21 class at the US champs- also at Quantico - in 1973. I'm not sure if he won but I'm pretty sure Bob was a little ahead of me and way ahead of Peter. (But I remember Bob pointing to Peter and telling everyone that this newcomer was going to be very good.)

So maybe Gord has memory problems like I do?

From my early O days -- Gail and I took a one-hour O' clinic at Prince William Forest Park in May, 1973. We were living in DC at the time. We asked about future meets, but were told that the Quantico meets were just for the military. So it wasn't until that fall, just after the US Champs (at Belfair Crossroads) that we saw a listing of Quantico meets in the Washington Post and started our regular trips down there.

First met Turbyfill on our first QOC meet in October, 1973. We (me and two friends) had trouble finding the meet site, drove all over the base, finally we were giving up and about to head home when we saw an O' control. There was Turbyfill, meet director, glad to see us as so far there had only been four people show up. There were 3 courses, white, red, and blue. We all asked to do blue, of course, but he talked us into red.

At that point QOC was the best place in the country for orienteering. Meets every weekend! By the time I had been a member for 3 months I had already been talked into setting courses.

I first met Gord at the 1974 Appalachian Spring O' Festival in Athens, Ohio. The meet's slogan was "Run Your ASOF." I was climbing up to a control at a cliff. Just then he came in from the top, right over the cliff and tumbled down next to the control. I was very impressed.

So does that mean he made a "favorable impression" when he landed?

:) They sure don't make event names like they used to.

I remember the '74 ASOF. It was my first event. It was at the height of the gas crisis. I stuck a 5 (or was it 10?) gallon can of gas in the back seat of my Fiat (remember Fiats?) and made it down in one hop. Ran Yellow and was hooked for life, even though it took a month for my knees to recover. Heard about Orienteering from a newspaper article from the Washington Post that my mom sent me. The article featured Turbyfill and mentioned his secret training tip of eating cake.

'74 ASOF ! What a meet! The meet director was a man named Jack Dyeus. The day before the meet he hosted a clinic for course setters where his course setting principles were explained: "With the (easier) white and yellow courses you make it as fair as possible but when it comes to the blue course it is you (the course setter) vs the competitors. You make the course as tricky as possible." His courses that weekend lived up to his principle. Before the Sunday meet started he gathered all the participants and told them there was one particularly steep and deep cliff on the map and participants should be careful. Then he added that Blue couse runners did not need to worry. If by not worry he meant that the control wasn't in the middle of the cliff that was right but he did place one of our flags right at the top edge of the cliff.
Dyeus is the only met director I know to have enlisted the help of state police for anything other than help at road crossings. On the Saturday one of the control flags went missing. At the same Sunday briefing Jack brought a burly state trooper, packing a side arm up on the platform. "I have donated all the controls to the State of Ohio" Jack said,"they are state property. If you are found to tamper with one you will have to deal with this gentleman."
But we are getting a bit off-topic. Maybe we should start a new thread - Orienteering in the early '70's -subtitled the older I get the better I was.

Gord, that sounds like a story. Even if it's non-fiction, you guys from the early '70s should be writing a book or at least a television series (with the writers' strike and all).